EPTI enjoyed the first episode.
IMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 28
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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stalife
Canada1222 Posts
I enjoyed the first episode. | ||
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italiangymnast
United States246 Posts
On February 04 2011 06:52 clickrush wrote: thats actually a pretty good suggestion. A format like this would heat the thing up and give the ppl a bit more to think of. thats probably hard for them though, since that is so fundamentally basic for them. the things they are talking about are far more subtle, like the collosus range being able to determine where the fight will take place. its not like they think its imba because thier army is too generally week. its because of subtler things like position in fights and manouvering around armies. at least that is what i got out of this video. | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On February 04 2011 06:52 clickrush wrote: thats actually a pretty good suggestion. A format like this would heat the thing up and give the ppl a bit more to think of. I agree as well, one of the best SOTG's was with PainUser because he had the opposite point of view to the 2 toss players and you were able to see both sides discussed. What surprised me is that I ended up agreeing with different sides on different items as it was easier to see which side had stronger reasoning to back them up. | ||
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SirDuke
United States239 Posts
On February 04 2011 06:53 walklightwhat wrote: Then add something to the discussion. Did you watch the video? Did you disagree with everything? Just one point? Don't just whine about who is talking. i totally agree. if this thread has any chance of doing something constructive then people are gonna need to stop whining and start contributing. OT: i defiantly agree with the fact that ZvP is very centered around the colossus. i think that if perhaps both races were maybe a bit more developed then maybe we wouldn't see this so much. i don't think the colossus is imbalanced but perhaps there just isn't enough for the zerg player to choose from to counter it if anything at all. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
no wonder zero progamers write on these forums anymore, people are idiots. User was warned for this post | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On February 04 2011 07:01 arnold(soTa) wrote: Good players give their opinion on the game -> low level scrubs flaming them becasue they have chosen a race (which you also have) no wonder zero progamers write on these forums anymore, people are idiots.  Pretty much my sentiments, I'm just glad a few progamers are willing to interact with the community in a significant way. | ||
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:18 Euronyme wrote: The quick mention of the reaper (may they rest in peace) nerf as a "slight nerf" just set the pace of this introduction. There were three nerfs to the reaper, and the first one was enough to heavily reduce it's usage, and the second and third made it completely obsolete apart from scouting. Collosus and high templar are the only protoss units in the game that actually have the potential to be cost effective against zerg. Zealots, stalkers, sentries, immortals, void rays and all that get completely smashed by hydras. It's basically PvT without templars or collosus, against higher ranged units, that not only beat yours in a straight up fight, but also can remax instantly. A hydra is cheaper and better than a stalker, and Zergs are always ahead in econ.. Nerfing the collosus would be detrimental. PvZ is as much revolving around collosi as it is around hydras. Also saying that Artosis has no bias is probably not true, as he's actually only been saying stuff like "4-gating is really easy, I know what I'm talking about because I'm playing protoss now". It even more shows the bias talking about the hydra as super slow off creep, but the collosus as a super fast unit when they have the exact same move speed off creep.. If you want to nerf the colosus, you have to make the gateway units halfway decent (atleast cost effective, considering less economy) against zerg, but then you'll have a pretty beastly 4 gate against you instead. Personally I think the zergs need a better composition, and better engagement tactics. Zealots kill hydras off creep. Chargelots demolish hydras. Stalker/sentry with good forcefields is as good as hydras. Immortals and void rays are two out of like 12 protoss units, that's not very much. And then void rays isn't countered by hydras that hard, and then you have to consider that void rays are flying units and can just back off if things get to hot, which hydras cannot. It's like mutas, they're not worth their 100/100 in combat (but their strength relies on being able to back off, to build up in big numbers, to harass and hit everything). So you've actually got immortals and half voidrays which counter hydras. They're really a bad unit overall, a big reason they're being used is because they are early anti air and doesn't get completely owned by forcefields. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
As terran in TvP I do this quite regularly. If the toss attempts to get early colossus I pressure them with drops to keep them from being able to push out (ever). If they expo I drop, they will lose economy in one way or another. Are mutas that bad? I just watched Dimaga beat whitera using what I believe is far more abusive... zealot,voids,colossus because the voids shit on the corruptors while the colossus rip the ground up. thoughts? | ||
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cameronkrazie86
United States296 Posts
One thing I was thinking of (not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread) is to maybe include gameplay video to go along with an argument. It would give a visual example of why you think something is underpowered or overpowered or just right. For instance, when talking about the maps and how zerg needs open space to have a better shot at flanking, you can show exactly how the maps play a role in a battle. It would obviously take more work but it would definitely improve the production value of your show. Just a suggestion, regardless, keep up the good work and ignore the haters. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
And the solution is quite obvious really, a few select buffs to other protoss units while nerfing colossi. I kinda doubt that something this major would occur before HOTS though, considering the amount of rebalancing it would require. I'm not an expert to either zerg or protoss so I will not comment on the actual matchup balance, but I think a changes like these would please protoss players too as they wouldnt be so reliant on one single unit. With this new show + the awesome casts/guides I feel like ArtosisTV is the SC2 channel to follow tbh. Great analysis as always guys. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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SeRenExZerg
United States401 Posts
but i'm surprised how objectively this video comes across given that artosis and idra made it. they actually try and take a logical approach to balance instead of just whining without support. i hope more people wont just write the video off before actually looking at it objectively themselves- something idra and artosis are trying to do. looking forward to more videos in the future! | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
As for the format of the show, it felt to me like Idra really felt somewhat out of place once they started talking about PvP probably because he's primarily a Zerg player. His references clearly went back to the ZvP matchup where he has the most experience. I think this show would probably benefit from a bit more of a round-table political discussion format with 1 person who mains each race and a random-only player in the mix to somewhat moderate any biases just so we get the unique perspectives from each race. It would have been more interesting if maybe we had a Protoss player in there arguing that ZvP was fine and giving his reasoning for it. Also just a fun little flair would be some sort of conclusion where each person on the show holds up a sign either saying "BALANCED" or "IMBALANCED" to put an extra stamp on their opinion to close out the show. BTW, are they planning to have any guests on in the future? | ||
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Ratel
Canada184 Posts
On February 04 2011 07:04 Bagi wrote: I absolutely agree with what Artosis and Idra said here, and I've even made some posts of the issue before. Colossi are too dominant as an unit, in the way that they are the key unit in all matchups and are effectively what makes the protoss deathball so strong in the lategame. And the solution is quite obvious really, a few select buffs to other protoss units while nerfing colossi. I kinda doubt that something this major would occur before HOTS though, considering the amount of rebalancing it would require. I'm not an expert to either zerg or protoss so I will not comment on them, but I think a changes like these would please protoss players too as they wouldnt be so reliant on one single unit. The fact that gateway units are so useless against everything the zerg and terran can get early game (ignoring ff's) is the main reason why every protoss game is so one dimensional. against terran protoss figured that they need to tech up to either ht's or collosai to deal with huge mmm armies in the mid game. Same applies to pvz, hydras and roaches are dirt cheap while gateway units cost as twice as more, it is just inefficient to tech to anything else or stick to gateway units in the midgame. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
During the video, they said "balance can only be addressed at higher levels," which is totally true, but the intended audience - the non-progamers - are not at a high enough level to address imbalance, let alone be "brainwashed" with information, so-to-speak. The content is aimed at the wrong audience. Of course, this is just the first episode. Perhaps in future episodes, you could analyze something not so generic that normal gamers can figure out (i.e collosi force corruptors and a lot of things), but maybe on the decision making and strategy aspect? Like why macro terran does not fare particularly well, how to overcome that, what gets in the way, etc. I'd rather see a show where I can learn something from it, rather than a show that sums up the opinion of the masses. | ||
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Druzal
United States25 Posts
Suggestions: End the show with comments on possible ways to FIX the imbalance, otherwise you're just complaining. Would removing the range upgrade and lowering the max range improve the situation? Lowering hp/shields? Lowering damage but adding extra damage vs light? Would you need to buff other units to compensate? Colossus: You seem to suggest that larger maps do not solve the problems because it's all about flanking. This seems to imply that you must directly engage the Protoss Ball of Death (PBD). Wouldn't larger maps benefit from the slower speed of the PBD? It seems to me that sniping/counter attacks would help a lot with Colossi play. I think the main issue that you had with the Colossus is that the game play centers around it. This issue is not just about it being a powerful unit (which it is). As many people have said it's about the Protoss tech tree. Because of observers, the tech tree ends up being a straight line towards colossus. That's a hard one to solve too without some major redesigns. I mean what do you do? A new cheap building that builds observers (with increased build time and/or cost to reflect that they don't take up robo build time)? Hmm.... | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
However, i dont know what the show is trying to acomplish. I feel like this will divide the community even more, and people will just keep arguing. Also, people need to remember that these are only their opinions, not fact. But people are still gonna put them on a pedestal and blindly accept their opinions as facts. I also think that saying that they are biased because they are both zergs is a valid argument. Can i prove it? No. But just because i dont back it up with facts doesnt mean it isnt true, and that it shouldnt be discussed. I feel like they pretty much just bypassed terran in their colossi debate, or most of it anyways. Just blindly saying that "both zerg so they are obviously biased" is stupid, but simply denying it is equally stupid. The show does have potential though, especially with such great players  I just dont think that people can control themselves, and the show will probably lead to even more whine from people. | ||
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Red.
Spain228 Posts
On February 03 2011 10:12 skrzmark wrote: What about neural parasite on the colossus? and Borrow Roaches? ...? what are you trying to discuss? right click infestor wich dies with a suave blow of wind and your problem is solved. I see nothing wrong with what they say. Solution? bigger maps to actualy BE ABLE to surround your enemy with a zergs army, zerg is supposed to do that. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
for those who thinks its biased, you just assume so because both of them are known for being whiny and biased, but here in this show they werent at all. it was great episode at least wait for future episodes where they will probably somewhere along the lines adress something that zerg has that might be imbalanced, i cant come to think of anything tho something they could do for the future is record a few clips of the things they bring up. for example a colosus battle vs zerg where zerg kills all colosus and remaxes up again. it would help deliver the msg better than just explaining everything with words a toss armywithout colosus or HT doesnt stand chanse vs z or t army. while in zvt its possible to play low tier from both ends or play higher tier vs higher tier and low vs high tier. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On February 04 2011 07:07 Ratel wrote: The fact that gateway units are so useless against everything the zerg and terran can get early game (ignoring ff's) is the main reason why every protoss game is so one dimensional. against terran protoss figured that they need to tech up to either ht's or collosai to deal with huge mmm armies in the mid game. Same applies to pvz, hydras and roaches are dirt cheap while gateway units cost as twice as more, it is just inefficient to tech to anything else or stick to gateway units in the midgame. Well the main question for me here is, what else would you give the option to tech to? Stargate technology? I don't think you could buff gateway units without wrecking the early game, but at the same time with Terran Vikings, I'm not sure how you would make another complete tech path viable since SG seems to be the only one and Vikings that would be for Colossus also destroy that. :/ In the case of PvZ, I feel like I've really yet to see the Phoenix change have a significant effect simply because they're still so fragile and Void Rays just feel so gimmicky for some reason. | ||
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