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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 04 2011 05:50 Chill wrote:
If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You are completely right but, you can not blame people for that. If it was Liquid Tyler and Liquid Jinro doing the show i am sure there would have been next to no "criticism" of the hosts.
I really hope this will become a very objective and informative show. It would go a long way, for the hosts and for the show, to focus on possible Zerg imbas/ exploits as soon as possible.
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Awesome show! its great to be able to hear some high level players talk about the games balance maturely without all the whining on TL (see this thread). it would also be cool if you had guests for different issues. for example i know that JP does his "JP and friends" show on youtube every week, and he is able to grab out a pro player every week to talk about stuffs. even if it's just audio over skype. for example if you do an episode about the 1rax FE or 2rax vs zerg, you can call up LZ, bratOK, or qxc. Or have jinro on, or tasteless. it would help credibility alot, and it would also add new viewpoints that as a zerg and toss player, you may not have seen. even if the episode comes out to conclusion of perfect balance on the topic, it would still be fun to watch. keep it up artosis, and Thanks! =)
On February 04 2011 06:13 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:39 Whitewing wrote:
In this video, you can see IdrA die a little inside every time Artosis calls him Eyedra. i dont understand, why Artosis is keeping doing it. I mean they know each other, i cant imagine IdrA never said "Hey man, actually its ihdra, not eyedra'. But maybe he is just mocking him^^
i heard incontrol talk about that once on state of the game, he was saying how artosis likes to leave marks on the community like that. he is proud that it is his fault people call him EYEdra. just like how he invented teh viking flower. i find it hilarious every time he does it. just watch GSL. he named the "tasteless secret hallway." there are others that i forget, i know it.
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Finally we have this show. It's so important for us to have a show like this, because all the discussions on TL.net about imbalance were so subjective and now we have a source to rely on.
I hope this show will take the imbalance discussions to a higher lvl.
One point I want to add: I'd love to see Jinro in the show. Please Jinro if you read this, it would be so good to have you in there.
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On February 04 2011 06:25 Moridin19 wrote:
Personally I think discussion of balance on a professional level to be essential to the community.
Dialog on the issue promotes a diversity of conversation, that could ultimately lead to a better understanding of the game for all. Regardless of a persons opinions on balance itself, the idea of discussing balance should always remain open.
Simply regarding the discussion as a bad idea stifles the community, sure they are loads of people out there that complain about balance and may not have a leg to stand on when doing so, but this shouldn't deter intelligent conversation on the subject.
Are Artosis and IdrA biased? Maybe
Will their opinions lead to a patch? Probably not.
Could the discussion lead to more thought on the subject, possibly leading to a strategic change in dealing with the perceived imbalance, rendering it less so? Entirely possible.
I've always found that intelligent conversation rarely harms the subject, I myself look forward to more of these videos
I totally agree. It's not about whether Artosis and Idra are 100% right or even whether they are biased. It's simply about addressing [i]perceived[\i] problems with the game, and that is one of the ways the game (and how it's being played) can evolve.
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two zerg players whining about imbalance. what a joke 
atleast take in some other races to talk it all through... its SO ridiculous to just have your point of views...
ops i saw that you couldnt tell them to invite some other races.. well then i dont see how this could work ;p. no matter what you will always be biased.. artosis may be "Both races" but its still just one active progamer whos playing zerg and a commentator.. not exactly ideal for doing such a show..
User was warned for this post
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colossus was a weak topic to start off with.
heres the list i rank would be better:
1.marines
2.Planetary Fortess
3.bunker salvage(why is there no risk for bunker rushes?)
4. mules
5. terran terran terran
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I don't know why people are freaking out over this, theres noone better to talk aobut balance than pros and commentators as they are the ones with most expertise. IdrA and Arty make some good constructive points about the unit, and also presents things other less experienced players can take away for their own play.
At the same time I think they should spend some time discussing how a collosus build can be countered before the 1st one even comes out.
Diagrams could be cool to get the point across, but those would be a lot of work for something like this.
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I think they need to play devil's advocate against each other even if they agree. Like instead of agreeing all the time, one has to take the different point of view. For the first episode as an example, if Idra is arguing for the colossus is "strong", artosis should try to take the other side like saying something on the lines of how bad gateway units scale to hydra/roach. Debate will take the show to new heights.
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Canada13378 Posts
I will watch the video when I get home and look forward to the analysis of the colossus. My only hope is that it's not too biased since artosis and idra are very vocal about their opinions (regarding anything they seem to me to be
vocal people).
What I don't agree with is the title. It's a marketing thing I get that but out is also imo troll bait and will lead to terrible discussions as result and the responses it receives aren't good.
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On February 04 2011 06:35 KeepYaCoolBro wrote:
I got myself a warning for my earlier post so let me tread lightly this time around.
Thank you Chill for pointing out appropriate ways to respond to a balance discussion(imbalance just starts out with a negative(literrally) sound.
And thank you to everyone else for some insightful and not-so posts.
I think that any talk about balance needs to be backed up by statistical analysis. I played SC1 and BW, but was a WoW nerd until SC2 beta. Whenever we talked about balance we would always back it up with statistical analysis. In this case, the only ones with all the data is Blizzard so it is rather hard for us to talk about balance based on "feelings" and "skill" level which are very subjective.
More numbers less feelings.
What kind of statistics are you looking for though? It can be hard to define what statistics actually would support a certain unit being imbalanced. Specifically the talk about PVP and the colossus being too strong. win rates won't matter as it is always PVP, would you want a list of games where players went colossus and the opponent didn't?
I am not saying you can't use statistics but data can be interpreted in so many ways that often it doesn't really show anything.
+ Show Spoiler +the three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics
If it was just about statistics then blizzard would simply build whatever program is needed and use that to decide balance. Just look at the GSL, I can say 2 Zergs have won so they are better, or that a Terran has made it to the finals a certain amount of time, both are true but in reality they don't address the issue due to lack of data and no control.
I just listened to SOTG and Nony/Incontrol said they thought there were more skilled players who played Terran than the other races. So many things go in to statistics that just because a number seems to match a point of view doesn't mean that it is true. Correlation does not = Causation.
Edit- Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to jump on you or to say that statistics are wrong, I just think we need to define what is useful and what isn't. I think if we could do that it would be great, but in reality that is such a hard task, that even Blizzard can't do it all the time, that is why we need things like open discussion amongst top players and blizzard so balances can be flushed out.
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On February 04 2011 06:49 xbankx wrote:
I think they need to play devil's advocate against each other even if they agree. Like instead of agreeing all the time, one has to take the different point of view. For the first episode as an example, if Idra is arguing for the colossus is "strong", artosis should try to take the other side like saying something on the lines of how bad gateway units scale to hydra/roach. Debate will take the show to new heights.
thats actually a pretty good suggestion. A format like this would heat the thing up and give the ppl a bit more to think of.
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To Saechiis whoever shares the same idea.
When talking about balancing we just can't ignore the timing in which the unit in question comes in to play, on top of that we have to also consider what the opposition already have on the field. For example the talk about reaper's balancing, the reaper was strong because of the timing in which you can get them in compare to what the zerg has available to them. They got slow roaches and slow zerglings + immoble queens and spinecrawlers vs speed reapers, you can defend it, but it takes a lot more effort in executing a defense than controlling reapers.
even when they said they are not familiar enough on the other 2 races, they are still experts in knowing timings of the other race, and how much at any given timing the other 2 race is capable of producing. When idra and artosis talk about the colossus, they inserts both timing and positioning variable into the discussion, you on the other hand only tunnel vision on unit counts.
Their knowledge of the unit colossus is greater than that of you, because idra and artosis look at not just what the colossus can do, they also look at when, and where the colossus can do what they do and reflect that into what zerg has available to them.
As for their claim of imbalance, I don't agree with that, and i don't think their reasoning supports their claim neither. they actually didn't say colossus needs to be nerfed, what they actually said was strategy are still not set in stone, and are ever evolving and they are not sure where it will land, but as it is at this moment, they feel that they are at an disadvantage.
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On February 04 2011 06:48 Naniwa wrote:two zerg players whining about imbalance. what a joke atleast take in some other races to talk it all through... its SO ridiculous to just have your point of views... ops i saw that you couldnt tell them to invite some other races.. well then i dont see how this could work ;p. no matter what you will always be biased.. artosis may be "Both races" but its still just one active progamer whos playing zerg and a commentator.. not exactly ideal for doing such a show..
Then add something to the discussion. Did you watch the video? Did you disagree with everything? Just one point? Don't just whine about who is talking.
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You can say what you want about IdrA but his early GG (4:03) vs Jinro on Metalopolis made GSL think twice about the balance which resulted in:
Modification on Blizzard maps for the league
GomTV modified Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns, Lost Temple for their league. Bloking the entrance with two bunkers is no longer possible.
I bet 95% of people would stubbornly play out the game being pushed around the entire time. Hoping for a miracle to happen to get back into the game.
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On February 04 2011 06:20 Aristotle7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:44 Manifesto7 wrote:
Locked. This thread is a nightmare. Was this thread really locked?
Yes it was. But it was a good call, it really was a nightmare.
Glad Chill reopened though.
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On February 04 2011 06:48 Naniwa wrote:two zerg players whining about imbalance. what a joke atleast take in some other races to talk it all through... its SO ridiculous to just have your point of views... ops i saw that you couldnt tell them to invite some other races.. well then i dont see how this could work ;p. no matter what you will always be biased.. artosis may be "Both races" but its still just one active progamer whos playing zerg and a commentator.. not exactly ideal for doing such a show..
This is exactly what we're not supposed to do. It's in the big white box on the top of the thread.
You are a very good player, so please elaborate more and try to discredit some of the facts, thoughts and conclusions that Artosis and Idra presented.I'm sure everybody in here would be very interested in that.
From my (bad player) point of view, basically everything that they said make sense, and I wouldn't really be able to counter-argue anything. Then again, I'm not Zerg (anymore) or Protoss, so I might have no inside at all into the issue.
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I'm sure this will be a bad idea and get be temp banned but I just want to object to the fact that anyone criticizing the show without writing a 3 paragraph essay was warned. No one who posted anything positive about the show was warned for not contributing enough even if their post was "THIS IS AMAZING love it artosis. so awesome." (actual post).
Anyway back on topic: I don't think just saying that getting the right unit mix is difficult as Zerg against Colossus is a good enough reason to say that colossus is imbalanced. A lot of things are hard to deal with but they aren't imbalanced. If you get the right mix of corrupters and and roach/hydra you can absolutely rape a Protoss army. They don't even bother to consider the protoss perspective when discussing the Colossus, it is not as if a Protoss player can just roll his face against the keyboard and get the perfect 200/200 army to deal with Zerg. I'm sure this has been articulated way better by some other people in this thread though.
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On February 04 2011 06:53 walklightwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:48 Naniwa wrote:two zerg players whining about imbalance. what a joke atleast take in some other races to talk it all through... its SO ridiculous to just have your point of views... ops i saw that you couldnt tell them to invite some other races.. well then i dont see how this could work ;p. no matter what you will always be biased.. artosis may be "Both races" but its still just one active progamer whos playing zerg and a commentator.. not exactly ideal for doing such a show.. Then add something to the discussion. Did you watch the video? Did you disagree with everything? Just one point? Don't just whine about who is talking.
ok im sorry.  ))))
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I felt they were pretty spot on about protoss relying too much on colossus in ZvP. Even when you kill colossus in a straight up fight, they already did more damage to the main army, in ZvP. The map size and distance are currently deciding factors if the strategy is to re-macro an army to finish off the weakened protoss army which lost most/all of its colossi.
I'd like to see Queens cost 1 supply instead of 2, where making more than 3-4 queens late game doesn't feel like you're really hindering your max army. I'm aware of day9's 300 food push, but as they more or less talked about, that doesn't work if the surviving army is already in your base, and there is such a great disparity between the Zerg max and Protoss max, a couple supply more for Zerg could really help get that Corruptor balance Idra was talking about.
I hope they tweak it along these lines instead of doing something drastic like reducing the arc of the Colossus, or the cast range of Forcefield (I was trying to reason a way to use infestors to FG sentries, but that really doesn't seem viable). May larger maps present more opportunities for Zerg to position/flank/counter attack.
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On February 04 2011 06:35 KeepYaCoolBro wrote:
I got myself a warning for my earlier post so let me tread lightly this time around.
Thank you Chill for pointing out appropriate ways to respond to a balance discussion(imbalance just starts out with a negative(literrally) sound.
And thank you to everyone else for some insightful and not-so posts.
I think that any talk about balance needs to be backed up by statistical analysis. I played SC1 and BW, but was a WoW nerd until SC2 beta. Whenever we talked about balance we would always back it up with statistical analysis. In this case, the only ones with all the data is Blizzard so it is rather hard for us to talk about balance based on "feelings" and "skill" level which are very subjective.
More numbers less feelings.
The problem with focusing on purely statistical analysis is that you need a huge set of data to adequately quantify a unit's usefulness or efficacy. The discussion cannot boil down to health times damage over cost or whatever other entirely quantitative analysis without adding into the mix range, movement speed, space of unit collision, build time, possible surface area of attacking units based on the space of the engagement, unit special abilities, ease of micro, various kinds of harassment that have gone on during the game, and a bunch of other things that create an equation with a dozen variables.
Given this, the subjective experience of how each composition deals with each other composition can be incredibly valuable and the "feel" of how something works is a much less arcane, indecipherable method of discussion.
As for the WoW comparison, there isn't really a "Patchwerk fight" equivalent that removes all the other variables and just lets pure damage output or whatever we're looking for shine through in SC2 as it is theoretically much more difficult to play a perfect game of starcraft than to have perfect execution of your single role in a raid.
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