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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 04 2011 07:36 DoubleReed wrote:
Trying to think of topics for them, and I gotta ask: are there any zerg units that feel imbalanced? I'm serious, with terran people keep complaining about MULEs and PFs and such. With Protoss there's colossus and force field.
But what do zerg have? Mutalisks? Banelings? I've never hear anyone say Ultralisks or Infestors are OP...
roaches for early ZvP maybe?
just saying people sometimes complain about it. not my own thoughts :D
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Ill definatly tune in on this, seems promising!
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On February 04 2011 07:37 Popsycle wrote:
Colossus, the back up plan if four gate fails.
great post man, way to contribute
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On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
I'll echo this piece of criticism. I find both Idra & Artosis to be entertaining individuals and I like the general format of this segment, but the "video" aspect of it does seem a little superflous. Unless there's a compelling reason to have video I think it'd be better (and probably get more downloads) as a mini podcast so people can listen on the go.
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On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
It's great to see experts players comment balance in a somewhat neutral way (as neutral as you can get imo). As far as I can tell this is absolutely exceptional analysis
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
In this episode that would for example be some footage of corruptors failing vs collossi where vikings would succeed just as you pointed that out. Sure it would lead to more workload, maybe you should get a third member to help adding in some more production of the kind I mentioned?
Great show, I hope you keep up the quality discussion and I sure hope it gets angled not only to actual imbalance, but also on how to cope with perceived imbalance and show how to cope with it!
I really like this show, and i agree with this post that perhaps having some footage of gameplay examples would really add to the discussion and make the arguments presented more valid to those who aren't familiar with the situations being described.
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Really enjoyed your episodes, and I still wonder why dont you guys play Terran, it seems like the safest race that favor the most styles.
Either way, heres some suggestions.
Reaper Speed Upgrade: Should it really be factory tech ?
Ravens: they seem pretty usefull in all match ups, but most people use them with allinish pushes or as a follow up to banshee pressure, why arent ravens the vessels of sc2 with everyone massing as much as possible of them ?
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On February 04 2011 07:44 Oceaniax wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
I'll echo this piece of criticism. I find both Idra & Artosis to be entertaining individuals and I like the general format of this segment, but the "video" aspect of it does seem a little superflous. Unless there's a compelling reason to have video I think it'd be better (and probably get more downloads) as a mini podcast so people can listen on the go.
Oh yes, this please. Illustrative examples would be great. Of course that'll likely open another can of worms, but you're on a recording, you don't have to listen to it!
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Calgary26004 Posts
On February 04 2011 07:44 ariK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
It's great to see experts players comment balance in a somewhat neutral way (as neutral as you can get imo). As far as I can tell this is absolutely exceptional analysis
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
In this episode that would for example be some footage of corruptors failing vs collossi where vikings would succeed just as you pointed that out. Sure it would lead to more workload, maybe you should get a third member to help adding in some more production of the kind I mentioned?
Great show, I hope you keep up the quality discussion and I sure hope it gets angled not only to actual imbalance, but also on how to cope with perceived imbalance and show how to cope with it! I really like this show, and i agree with this post that perhaps having some footage of gameplay examples would really add to the discussion and make the arguments presented more valid to those who aren't familiar with the situations being described.
I think that's a lot more work than it seems. So I don't mind the format - sit down, record it, done.
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Personally as a protoss player i see some weirdness in their points. They complain about tier1-2 units from zerg can't overcome tier3 units from the protoss player.
If you would switch it around a protoss player with gateway only units and immortals can never beat roach/hydra. So the protoss must have templars or colossus. I think _that_ is weird. That zerg is lacking a proper "counter" for colossus is true. Maybe it is even true that the overall damage from the protoss "deathball" is to high compared to zerg.
And i kinda disagree that they said the colossus in pvt is "just fine". As a protoss player you need tier3 units to conquer tier1 marines/marauder, kinda weird in my eyes. I don't call it imbalanced or broken but overall i find it weird as a protoss that you need the higher tech units to be able to win anything vs tier1-2 units from zerg/terran. (Except your 4-gating^^)
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On February 04 2011 07:36 DoubleReed wrote:
Trying to think of topics for them, and I gotta ask: are there any zerg units that feel imbalanced? I'm serious, with terran people keep complaining about MULEs and PFs and such. With Protoss there's colossus and force field.
But what do zerg have? Mutalisks? Banelings? I've never hear anyone say Ultralisks or Infestors are OP...
I think pretty much any unit in the zerg arsenal has an acceptable way to be dealt with by the other 2 races. If there is going to be any balance discussion about zerg it'd have to be about the macro mechanics.
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The only problem is they didn't throw any real suggestion at all and that just sounds like 2 players whine about something. So Idra, Artosis what do you suggest, to nerf collossus, at what cost, to buff zealots/stalkers/sentry and make 4-gates even stronger, to make templars quicker to research, what would happen then, i think everyone would pray for good old collossus army. You just can't take advantage of such important unit without serious consideration about imbalacing whole race as 1000 other factors will take impact from that decision and it just feels wrong to me cause toss is in 1st place small but damn though army to break, and it's what blizzard's intentions were when they made this race
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On February 04 2011 07:50 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:44 ariK wrote:On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
It's great to see experts players comment balance in a somewhat neutral way (as neutral as you can get imo). As far as I can tell this is absolutely exceptional analysis
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
In this episode that would for example be some footage of corruptors failing vs collossi where vikings would succeed just as you pointed that out. Sure it would lead to more workload, maybe you should get a third member to help adding in some more production of the kind I mentioned?
Great show, I hope you keep up the quality discussion and I sure hope it gets angled not only to actual imbalance, but also on how to cope with perceived imbalance and show how to cope with it! I really like this show, and i agree with this post that perhaps having some footage of gameplay examples would really add to the discussion and make the arguments presented more valid to those who aren't familiar with the situations being described. I think that's a lot more work than it seems. So I don't mind the format - sit down, record it, done.
100% it would take a lot more work from IdrA and Artosis, but my feeling is that this will be one of those things where they get out of it what they put into it. A video of two guys sitting on a couch is both easy to make and easy it write off. Most of us are used to SEEING Starcraft games, not hearing about them, so although it would take more effort the payoff would be more than worth it. And honestly, they're going to have to put in a little more effort than the average person to be taken seriously in balance discussions because of who they are, and regardless of the (high) factual content of what they are saying.
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This was actually way better than I expected. I really don't feel like they went into enough depth though. The mobility of Colossi is a downside, not a strength. Terran players have long abused drops against Protoss players who go Colossus heavy armies, exploiting the fact that Colossus armies need to stay clumped together in a ball to be effective. I have yet to see Zerg players at the top level abuse the mobility that their race offers them (creep, overlord drops, nydus networks, etc) like top level Terran players do. If you 1a into a Colossus army of course the Zerg army is going to lose, especially in tight quarters.
While Zerg is a macro oriented race I think that many Zerg players are too passive with Protoss opponents. The way that Zerg needs to deal with Colossi is very similar to the way that Protoss deals with Mutas: heavy aggression in the mid game. Don't let him get 6+ Colossi. Force him to divert his resources into Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers with aggression and harassment. I also feel like Infestors and Ultralisks are very underused in ZvP. Colossi get exponentially more powerful so it makes sense to cut down their numbers with neural parasite (even if it only lasts a few seconds.) Since Colossi deal splash damage it also makes sense to mix in large units like Ultras into your army (and Ultras also deal with those pesky forcefields too.)
I rarely go for Colossi in PvP. I feel like a strong warp gate army with Phoenixes and Void Rays smashes and equal food Zealot Colossi army with proper micro. However, Phoenixes and Void Rays can be "countered" by a Stalker heavy army which in turn is "countered" by Chargelot Immortal Colossi army. That is the rock, paper, scissors of PvP. Hardly what I would call imbalanced.
Just because a unit defines a matchup doesn't mean its overpowered. Mutas defined PvZ for a little while and still define TvZ (mutas force marines which banelings kill easily etc.) Certain units are going to dominate certain match ups or on certain maps. It does not necessarily mean that they are imbalanced.
I am, however, only a 2500 Diamond Random player. Obviously not near as good as Idra or Artosis but I do have tons of experience both playing with and against Colossi as all three races. Their analysis seems to be more complaining than truly addressing the strengths and weaknesses of the Colossus. I hope in future episodes they really exhaust all possible options before declaring a unit balanced or imbalanced.
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The only thing i agreed with them was that if collosus get nerfed, gateway units need to be buffed. I think the reason why toss has the best late game, is because our core(gateway units) are so bad against terran and zerg mid to late game, so we need that big time power units such as the collo to even compete.
TBH I felt the same way about the muta ling build when it came out, but protoss found ways around that. Remember the mech zerg couldnt beat? Point is give it time before you label it imbalance, there are probably a million builds that havent been thought of yet that would destroy certain races imba units.
Also once maps like blistering and steppes get eliminated alot of these concerns will go away.
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On February 04 2011 07:54 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:36 DoubleReed wrote:
Trying to think of topics for them, and I gotta ask: are there any zerg units that feel imbalanced? I'm serious, with terran people keep complaining about MULEs and PFs and such. With Protoss there's colossus and force field.
But what do zerg have? Mutalisks? Banelings? I've never hear anyone say Ultralisks or Infestors are OP... I think pretty much any unit in the zerg arsenal has an acceptable way to be dealt with by the other 2 races. If there is going to be any balance discussion about zerg it'd have to be about the macro mechanics.
You can use the same logic for things like colossus then. An acceptable way for Z to deal with colossus is corruptors. Though it does some like most of the 'imbalance' for Z comes with the ability to do massive tech switches (broodlord->ultra v T).
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On February 04 2011 07:50 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:44 ariK wrote:On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
It's great to see experts players comment balance in a somewhat neutral way (as neutral as you can get imo). As far as I can tell this is absolutely exceptional analysis
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
In this episode that would for example be some footage of corruptors failing vs collossi where vikings would succeed just as you pointed that out. Sure it would lead to more workload, maybe you should get a third member to help adding in some more production of the kind I mentioned?
Great show, I hope you keep up the quality discussion and I sure hope it gets angled not only to actual imbalance, but also on how to cope with perceived imbalance and show how to cope with it! I really like this show, and i agree with this post that perhaps having some footage of gameplay examples would really add to the discussion and make the arguments presented more valid to those who aren't familiar with the situations being described. I think that's a lot more work than it seems. So I don't mind the format - sit down, record it, done.
Yeah that's definately true. Would mean it would have to be longer and/or there'd be less to talk about, neither of which are what we'd like. But greed is good!
(Well until they get into my mineral line..)
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as a protoss player i went into this looking at the two hosts going "here comes epic whine fest"
however i was extremely, extremely impressed with the quality of arguments they put out, supporting both for and against colossus in different matchups. both idra and artosis definitly hooked me into this series and i am looking for the next one they put out!
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I would say in the spirit of PvZ to give corruptors a small damage Air to Ground attack that at least makes them slightly better than useless against a ground army. It gives a little more forgiveness to the Zerg player that struggles to balance his army comp vs a toss that he can't reliably scout.
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Not to bash Artosis or Idra who are obviously better players than I am, but TvP has the same problem with ZvP and collossi.
They aren't that expensive and they make the protoss death ball unbeatable against a Terran ground army.
Marauders do OK but thats like saying roaches are the counter to collossi.
Marine Marauder pressure might be too good, but Collossi very difficult to deal with because of the slow Terran Macro mechanic. You can't just recover after focusing down colossi like you can with zerg. Even with an appropriate amount of vikings, the majority of your ground army will die before the colossi die.
It wouldn't really be that bad if Mech was decent but Siege tanks are very risky against any tech path the protoss player takes and Hellions weren't such a niche unit.
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EPT
