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On September 30 2010 08:15 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved. ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game. + Show Spoiler + ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is being a rock star. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer. so true (and lovely pics ^^) If you guys rlly think its esport when some tournaments are played and sponsors randomly throw money at it ur totally wrong. wait 3 4 years till blizzard will announce Wc4 or another RTS and iam so damn sure SCII will go down so fast. like i said in some threads already SCII will be just another "good" RTS until the next good one comes out and then its gone. and stop kidding urself that u will see real esports in the west for hm like the next 10-20 years. until people like "us" are "old" and accept it... but yeah SCII is awesome right now every stupid sponsor is throwing money at it and is hosting random tournaments WOHO. thats esports YES. the kid above me... rlly? :D who would have thought games these days with 10 years + of High level RTS play are better then back in the days ! WOW !. btw i never found someone who told me why SCII is better then SC:BW Oo
You can't really define a "better" game. If you took a survey of everyone in the world, the vast majority would rather play and watch SC2 than brood war, and say that it's a better game. Does that make it better? Only you can decide for yourself.
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^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still...
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On September 30 2010 08:32 mierin wrote: ^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still... Why should it? What I'm saying is that there's no concrete way to define a better game.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
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On September 30 2010 08:32 mierin wrote: ^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still...
This is like finding an answer to why people prefer soccer to american football. You can't quantify how "fun" watching a game is because it's completely personal preference.
Saying something is "more developed" means nothing.
On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
Why does SC2 have to repeat the relative success of BW? There is nothing wrong with SC2 being another fun RTS game that countless people love playing. E-Sports do survive outside Korea, albeit in a different fashion. It's the competitive scene that makes e-Sports, not the games involved. Where is your gamer camaraderie?
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Russian Federation327 Posts
2 TOloseGT I dont care about "yet another fun RTS game" I care about eSport scene which I like to watch and follow. It is wrong to destroy one home without having another one ready. We have a lot another fun games and stuff to do in your spare time, but we have quite limited number of developed eSport's titles.
It's the competitive scene that makes e-Sports, not the games involved. Soo, game have nothing to do with its own competitive and entertainment abilities? what?
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On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1. Completely agree here. While SC2 is what brought me back into RTS, it is still unproven and shouldn't be being showed ppls throats like it seems to be.
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On September 30 2010 09:21 Yodo wrote:2 TOloseGT I dont care about "yet another fun RTS game" I care about eSport scene which I like to watch and follow. It is wrong to destroy one home without having another one ready. We have a lot another fun games and stuff to do in your spare time, but we have quite limited number of developed eSport's titles. Soo, game have nothing to do with its own competitive and entertainment abilities? what?
When new games come out, the e-sports scene adapt to them. That's the difference between real sports and competitive gaming. They're under completely different mediums, and while games will change in e-sports, the competitiveness of those gamers will not. That's what I was getting at.
There are several dominant games right now, but will those games still be there 10-15 years from now? Not likely.
On September 30 2010 09:24 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1. Completely agree here. While SC2 is what brought me back into RTS, it is still unproven and shouldn't be being showed ppls throats like it seems to be.
SC2 has not been shoved down anyone's throat. People choose to switch games. No one forced anything on the BW proscene except for the natural process of aging, which is one of the vices of computer games.
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On September 29 2010 17:25 G5 wrote: great fucking post in every sense
loved every sentence
i love how you realize the big picture as compared to most who look at the short term.
10/10 Sums up my thoughts exactly.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
so basically you come to an E-sports community to put down E-sports?
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The problem with E-sports is that even people who love BW dont take it seriously enough as a competitive sport to look past their own cultural stigma that video games couldn't possibly be put on an even footing with mainstream sports.
SC2 has not been shoved down anyone's throat. People choose to switch games. No one forced anything on the BW proscene except for the natural process of aging, which is one of the vices of computer games.
If Blizzard/Gretech taking legal action against the korean broadcasters isnt shoving SC2 down our throats i dont know what is.
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On September 30 2010 11:57 ZeroChrome wrote: The problem with E-sports is that even people who love BW dont take it seriously enough as a competitive sport to look past their own cultural stigma that video games couldn't possibly be put on an even footing with mainstream sports. Why not? Because our society has an overall negative view of video games? This can easily change over time. Pre-Boxer it was the same in Korea for the most part. But the presence of groups like Kespa legitimizes the game as an e-sport. We could have something like that happen as well.
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On September 30 2010 07:26 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 07:09 palexhur wrote:On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again. You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension. Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you. Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Since the announcement of SC2, and availability of GOM english commentary, there has been plenty of new incomers as spectators of pro BW, they don't even play. I saw it happen IRL around me, with my own eyes. Since word of GOMTV started spreading, quite a few people at lans started talking about flash, one of my friends who played WoW even showed me GOMTV and said he was addicted to watching it.
However support for BW outside of korea since then has dropped, along with SC2 which has slowed progress quite considerably. The main problem is not the graphics, its that there is simply not enough support for people who play and watch BW.
There currently is a lot more support for the foreigner scene for SC2 than BW. GSL english commentary, Day9 daily, pro foreigners all moving to SC2, friends playing, etc.
Right now though, the only game to make it properly as an e-sport is BW, and the success rate is very low, 1/1000 chance for any competitive game would be my guess. There are plenty of e-sport-esque games out there in WCG, so far BW is the only one that has truly made it.
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On September 30 2010 12:09 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 11:57 ZeroChrome wrote: The problem with E-sports is that even people who love BW dont take it seriously enough as a competitive sport to look past their own cultural stigma that video games couldn't possibly be put on an even footing with mainstream sports. Why not? Because our society has an overall negative view of video games? This can easily change over time. Pre-Boxer it was the same in Korea for the most part. But the presence of groups like Kespa legitimizes the game as an e-sport. We could have something like that happen as well.
I think its more that we are used to mainstream sports being like fixed entities in our lives, but video games being a sort of passing thing that changes every year to keep people interested. Then when games come along that have the same qualities that give sports their longevity come around it is hard to fully comprehend that a video game could actually keep people interested for a long time.
I do agree with you that without organizations like Kespa and figures like Boxer esports wont be accepted in the west. E-sports could be successful in our societies, but it would take many years even with Kespa/Boxer equivalents, attitudes towards gaming are still too negative by too many people.
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Chess 2? Some new sucky dick-en shitty piece of wanna-be idea. Oh wait thats SC2... (i'm a big time chess player btw lol)
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On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
I'm not going to argue on the matter of "eSports = sport?," but I will mention that regardless of how Koreans practice (and I know you can't put in 12 hours practicing the physical aspects of a sport, which is like 99% of what you'll be practicing) but didn't Idra mention how practicing 12 hours/day is totally sub-optimal?
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