On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
post in this topic, and i realized that i hear this kind of thing way too often and it needs to be throughly discussed why ideas like this are so completely wrong. The post was off topic in the original thread but it does raise an important issue so i want to discuss it here.
Starcraft isn't just like every other shitty video game, imagine if people came out with a "chess 2" with redesigned pieces and you could move 2 at once and could take back 5 moves per game so it was more open to the casual player. Thats a little bit closer to what were talking about here.
Saying that BW dying is a good thing and that its run its course and 12 years is more than enough time makes a little sense if you're viewing starcraft in the same lens as every other video game (its just like halo 1, who plays that its so old omfg??!?!). But to view it like that would be ignoring the extraordinary aspects about it that made it last so long in the first place. Starcraft is a wildly successful spectator sport that requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play at the incredibly high level that is required of professionals. It is a lot more like chess or basketball or soccer than other video games, so it should be treated as such.
People saying things like:
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs
Is like saying oh yeah baseball had its hundred years now its run its course lets play baseball 2. Rubber ball to make it more accessible to new players so its easier to hit, oh yeah and lets move the home run in 50 yards so there's more action. like, wtf? does that make any sense? If you say "no, but thats totally different baseball is an iconic sport" then you have the wrong perspective about starcraft.
People Saying things like: "BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous"
Oh yeah D/D- isn't hard to achieve for a casual player. Is that a serious statement? Starcraft is just more complicated than other video games so it takes a bit longer to learn the finer points, you can't just expect to pick it up like you can pick up halo. Lets again use basketball as an example since it makes so much more sense to compare Starcraft to basketball than to other video games. Now to a "casual player" (i.e someone who knows nothing about the game but plays with friends once every couple weeks) can you reasonably expect them to be able to make 8/10 left handed layups running full speed if they are right handed? Probably not. But any halfway decent high school basketball player is easily capable of doing that. Now, is this player doesn't really have to be very talented at or committed to basketball to be able to do this, he just has to have spent a little time on it and put in a little effort to learn exactly what he should be doing to do this successfully. He is still a fairly casual player.
Example 2: Chess: It takes a bit of time to learn and memorize the rules and gameplay, and then learn a bunch of openings and basic chess theory etc. A "casual player" may not know any openings or really know anything about chess and to expect them to achieve a 600 rating (lets call it the D- of chess, if 600 isnt that bad sorry i don't know chess ratings very well). It takes a bit of time and effort. But that said, a 600 rated player is still a casual player. They aren't necessarily skilled at all and anybody who put in a little time and effort could be just as good as they are. Just like D/D- iccup rank.
Bottom line is starcraft is as accessible to a casual player as any real sport (like chess, basketball) is. While it isn't something you can just pick up and be decent at if you've played other games like it, neither is chess, baseball, basketball etc.
So do you see how it can be accessible to a casual player without being super easy to pick up? and you can just play for fun and not competitively and that stuff is really accessible. Play BGH (Or SC2) before you're ready for regular Starcraft, if you're new to it all or just want to chill. You can play H-O-R-S-E before you can play basketball.
Also i don't think SC2 has helped Esports as much as people think. its brought a lot of short term publicity but really only in the gaming world, and it doesn't address what is a major underlying problem in the way of Esports being successful in a transcultural across the board way that real sports have been. Only time will tell but i think the reason Esports hasn't REALLY caught on in mainstream culture really anywhere outside of Korea is because its way too broad of a category. There are no true Esports because they fucking change all the time. Sports, lets see: there's like what, less than 10 major ones in america? And they've been around forever because they're the best. Esports changes every year. Every time a new game is released with better graphics the old one is thrown out the window.
With regular sports people have played them their entire life, their parents played them, everyone knows them they've become part of the culture. There are the iconic greats of last generation that no one ever forgets. There are no sequels because the graphics are the world and game engine/operating system is life and those can't be improved. With video games they can be and so they are updated constantly to make them shinier and more modern, and therefore more attractive to the "casual player". There are no iconic greats that people remember because those guys played an obsolete game that no one cares about today. Now, this is ok if you're making video games for kids to play at their friends houses for entertainment which is still the main reason games are made. But then again, kids still play basketball (an 100 year old game) together so are updates as necessary as we think?
There are really two classes of games, ones that are sports and ones that are games or pastimes. All the ones that work as sports work as casual pastimes to a good extent, but that isn't true for the casual games working well as real sports.
But to view SC2 as a horrible thing isn't right either. SC2 is just being viewed the wrong way by people. SC2 should never have been designed to be an Esport, to quote Nukethestars it makes much more sense as a "tribute" to SC1, and as a game that should function as a casual pastime on par with age of empires than an attempt to uproot replace Brood War as an Esport. And as soon as people realize that we can really have the best of both worlds: Professional Brood War functioning as the great Esport and Starcraft 2 to be just for fun drawing new people in to the whole scene. Think Chess and Checkers. Or Basketball and H-O-R-S-E like i said before.
Now, overall this is my point: Remember how i said that Esports hasn't REALLY caught on anywhere outside of korea? Well it caught on in korea. And remember how i said that the reason it hasn't REALLY caught on anywhere outside of korea is because the games change all the time and there are no iconic players and the games are seen as (and created to be) more of a pastime than a real sport. Well in Korea the game doesn't change all the time it stayed for 12 years and counting. In Korea there are iconic players that are household names. There is boxer for that little 8 year old kid playing starcraft for the first time to look up to. Just like the 8 year old kids here in America wanna be just like mike when they learn basketball. And in Korea, the game is seen as a major spectator sport that you can enjoy without having any ability at the game yourself. Just like there are people who have never played baseball that love to watch baseball.
So is it possible that maybe they're really doing something right in Korea? And the key to having Esports successful is to have that iconic game(s) with those iconic household name players that makes a real spectator sport accessible to people who can't play the game at all? Now you see why people care so much that Brood War sticks around. Not just because we love it (which is reason enough). Because it is the only real Esport.
Well-written post. Pretty much stated my thoughts exactly.
This idea of "SC2 is out, so it's time to pack up BW and move on" is just silly.
Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now. But I wholly agree that in theory, there's no reason why it should have to be ousted in favor of SC2.
Yup, I've had the same feelings as you OP. Jumping from game to game every 5-10 years is just stupid and throws away everything players worked for and developed.
I've said it before but, I think some organization just needs to modify Brood Wars graphics while keeping the game engine in tact. Basically make HD sprites and support for 16: 9. While they're at it revamp the online system with matchmaking and make the UI look more inviting, and fitting for 2010.
I think this should be done by Blizzard, but I don't see it happening...
On September 29 2010 13:31 matjlav wrote: Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now.
Agreed, eSport games will probably have a shorter lifespan (probably in 100 years, people will not be obsessed with BW like today, but then again I could be wrong), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going with them. eSports is very "lol" world-wide right now. If the scene is to ever expand, it has to broaden everything it displays and offers. Continuously cycling through games like idiotic companies who just want to make money isn't for eSports. They need to show that if created properly, a game can continuously evolve in how its played until before you realize it, the game was played for literally decades with world-wide interest. Could you imagine if a few video games were released that were meant for a long-term evolution instead of getting money to whoever and then moving onto the next venture? We'd have 8 games that evolve over 12 years instead of 1. That sort of setup is how we'll know eSports reached a new level.
On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote: Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
That is honestly what I was hoping SC2 would be
I would LOVE to play a new 2D RTS in 1920x1080. If theres one thing I've noticed over the years it's that 3D RTS just does not work as well as 2D. It's always clunky and unclear.
On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote: Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
SCBW HD remix alone would probably draw in a new crowd of fans since most of the people I've spoken to who solely play SC2 are put off by the graphics.
I think the OP was well written and was a nice read, I'm going to point people to this thread when ever someone writes "just let BW die already" or something like that.
On September 29 2010 13:31 matjlav wrote: Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now.
Agreed, eSport games will probably have a shorter lifespan (probably in 100 years, people will not be obsessed with BW like today, but then again I could be wrong), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going with them. eSports is very "lol" world-wide right now. If the scene is to ever expand, it has to broaden everything it displays and offers. Continuously cycling through games like idiotic companies who just want to make money isn't for eSports. They need to show that if created properly, a game can continuously evolve in how its played until before you realize it, the game was played for literally decades with world-wide interest. Could you imagine if a few video games were released that were meant for a long-term evolution instead of getting money to whoever and then moving onto the next venture? We'd have 8 games that evolve over 12 years instead of 1. That sort of setup is how we'll know eSports reached a new level.
I can just imagine photo-realistic SCBW, CS 1.6, CoD 4 Hardcore and HoN as banner-bearers for this kind of thing if it were to happen. Oh how realistic it would be... *dreams*
On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote: Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
SCBW HD remix alone would probably draw in a new crowd of fans since most of the people I've spoken to who solely play SC2 are put off by the graphics.
I think the OP was well written and was a nice read, I'm going to point people to this thread when ever someone writes "just let BW die already" or something like that.
it'd have to be the same engine though with all the same bugs or else it'd never play the same, and thus most likely impossible :\
On September 29 2010 13:31 matjlav wrote: Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now.
Agreed, eSport games will probably have a shorter lifespan (probably in 100 years, people will not be obsessed with BW like today, but then again I could be wrong), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going with them. eSports is very "lol" world-wide right now. If the scene is to ever expand, it has to broaden everything it displays and offers. Continuously cycling through games like idiotic companies who just want to make money isn't for eSports. They need to show that if created properly, a game can continuously evolve in how its played until before you realize it, the game was played for literally decades with world-wide interest. Could you imagine if a few video games were released that were meant for a long-term evolution instead of getting money to whoever and then moving onto the next venture? We'd have 8 games that evolve over 12 years instead of 1. That sort of setup is how we'll know eSports reached a new level.
I can just imagine photo-realistic SCBW, CS 1.6, CoD 4 Hardcore and HoN as banner-bearers for this kind of thing if it were to happen. Oh how realistic it would be... *dreams*
Funny thing is BW HD would take blizzard maybe 1 week. BroodWar used 3D models for all of their sprites, you just need to render them in higher definition. Although the worst outcome would be Blizzard remaking the models to look like WC3 and then rendering them into BW, that would be really bad. It needs to be the original models.
I wish blizzard released the old BW models to the public. Although if someone could be bothered, we could get the models from project revolution, render them into 2D, and inject them into BW. The terrain and some of the effects would still be bad though, that would need to be revamped.
ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
I kinda feel the same way, and it's why I hope professional Brood War can survive at least until Star2 has had a chance to really prove itself. But at the same time, I just can't believe that there is no opportunity for another RTS to ever improve on BW as a spectator sport.
It may never recapture the glory of the original from those innocent days before we even perceived e-sport as a phenomenon. The accomplishments of the new stars may seem hollow to those who witnessed the passion and the brilliance of Boxer and Yellow, of Nal_rA and Savior. These are heroes. They ventured where we could not, permitting us to share in the emotion of victory and defeat. Their aspirations were our own, and the authentic spirit they displayed in competition infused the PC rooms and the online ladders. And despite their human frailties, we cherish the legacy of these players.
But like the heroes of baseball in 19th century America, who now remembers the names or deeds of these giants five generations hence, though they overcame the imbalances, the hungry days of ramen, the macrobots and cheesers of their era. Though we call it baseball, ours is a new game played with modern equipment and by different rules.
Amazing OP, funnybananaman. I hadn't really put much thought into it before but you laid everything out on the table and really made the paradox of esports clear. I sincerely hope that not only will bw survive the test of time but also that sc2 will rise to a balanced and competitive level.
I'm going to play devil's advocate. Granted, I love watching BW, moreso than SC2, but I can see why it's being endangered.
Counter-Example 1: Games need to be updated, for aesthetic and for balance reasons. First of all, BW runs on Windows 95. We have to hack it just to make it work. Didn't they release a patch so that it would run properly on multi-core systems? Hacking is already kinda iffy.
Major sports are changed all the time. Look at the big hubbub over instant replay. There are minor rules changes in American football every year, like the abolishing of the 5-yard incidental facemask penalty.
Aesthetically, I'm not talking about pretty graphics. What I'm really impressed with is the amount of information available to the observer in SC2. I get to know what he's building, how many units he has, how many buildings, APM, all of that. MSL doesn't even have a resource/food count. To get all the information, again, we have to hack it.
The real life analogy would be like how they used to keep score. Imagine if everyone still used score cards. Hey look! I invented a scoreboard! Now everyone can know what the score is... but no, we can't implement it, because they won't let us or the turf can't support the new technology. (btw lol @ golf)
Counter-example 2: The skill gap is huge. What makes it insurmountable is the lack of novice players. In team games, I'm used to seeing somewhat poor players get in the mix and enjoy themselves because the rest of the team will guide and carry them. Team games in BW are nearly nonexistent, and require too much individual skill for a player to help them.
Second is the tough learning curve. In chess, you might be ranked 600, but there are other 600 players to play with. In BW, between D and D- is HUGE. And that was before SC2 came out. D- to me was trash, but D was impossible to beat. Perhaps in Korea, it's more easily set up because they have friends to play with and progress with before they move on to pickup games. I don't know. I'm not from Korea. The same thing is happening to SF4 players wanting to play 3S or ST. The average or below average 3S/ST players will blow SF4 players out of the water at 3S/ST, and it's frustrating because SF4 players have no one to play with and get good and get on the learning curve with, they either have to play veterans or the computer and neither is good learning for them.
What about the argument of poker? There's tons of styles to play and only recently did 1 form get extremely popular. SC2 could be the No Limit Hold'em of video games. Just saying..
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
1. Where in the dictionary does it say a sport can't have GFX improvements, or engine fixes?Please, point it out to me.
Just look at how much different sport looks on TV these days with all the flashy computer graphics pasted on the screen, and FIFA has probably made more changes to soccer, than blizzard has to BW in the last 5 years.
3 (2). Yes it is, there is absolutely no difference besides the culture and wealth of the sport itself. Eat, gym, train, eat, train, recover, eat, sleep. If your team is wealthy you will have extras, like ice-baths, and massages, and just better facilities in general. The core is the same though. I haven't been in a pro-gamer house, but I do have a relative who is a professional sportsman who plays for a professional team.
Different sports have different schedules. I could train 12 hours in fishing or golf, easy, does that make it not a sport? What if someone trained in tennis for 12 hours, is everyone but him, actually playing a sport? Your statement makes absolutely no sense.
3. You are logically 100% correct here, Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Just like how bunny rabbits cannot be compared to methylated spirits, what is your point? Maybe you are trying to say that anything that is rendered with pixels can not be considered a sport. However you are wrong, when you watch the football on TV, it is rendered with pixels.
4. By your definition America got a craze in gridiron for 90 years, somehow its still going, like BW. A craze doesn't last 12 years, and it can only be defined once it loses significant popularity, BW as an e-sport has maintained its popularity in Korea.
Why do people compare SC2 to sports soooooo much, I know its quite off topic, but im pretty much a closet nerd, ive played BW for 10 years love the pro scene and all, but I'm an Athlete, i was a jock in school, thats all im gonna say bout that so people dont think im trying to brag. Anyway, it almost angers me that people will compare starcraft to things like hockey and basketball, I love games and sports, but there separate, and it's not too say one is better than the other, it's excactly the opposite, it makes me so angry that people need to feel like physical things are superior to mental things, I.E. chess to lacrosse, I love lacrosse IMO best sport on earth (than again i am canadian ), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
This is wildly off topic but it's just something that really bothers me and needed to get if off my chest, and no one reads the blogs
On September 29 2010 16:00 youinspireme wrote: What about the argument of poker? There's tons of styles to play and only recently did 1 form get extremely popular. SC2 could be the No Limit Hold'em of video games. Just saying..
ESPN + Luck into millions of dollars. That's what made NLHE popular, not the skill.
To the OP, your arguement has been made before in TL, just can't remember where. But not nearly as well addressed, to which I applaud. E-Sports is a paradox, and until a company dedicates itself to it, it will never be what many of us want it to be. Eventually, BW will be phased out, simply because computers are able to play more games as PC Bangs upgrade their computers. Furthermore, BW isn't that super popular in Korea as many think. Rek has stated it many times before, it's the WWE of Korea. A niche group that is extremely strong and keep the form of entertainment going.
On September 29 2010 16:14 Slago wrote: Why do people compare SC2 to sports soooooo much, I know its quite off topic, but im pretty much a closet nerd, ive played BW for 10 years love the pro scene and all, but I'm an Athlete, i was a jock in school, thats all im gonna say bout that so people dont think im trying to brag. Anyway, it almost angers me that people will compare starcraft to things like hockey and basketball, I love games and sports, but there separate, and it's not too say one is better than the other, it's excactly the opposite, it makes me so angry that people need to feel like physical things are superior to mental things, I.E. chess to lacrosse, I love lacrosse IMO best sport on earth (than again i am canadian ), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
This is wildly off topic but it's just something that really bothers me and needed to get if off my chest, and no one reads the blogs
Well the point of referring to sports is to create an analogy and help people see the parallels between them. Yes, in your off-topic rant, I agree that it is annoying when people try to use physical things such as sports, gf, car, or anything in general to try to belittle others.
People who are saying stop comparing eSports to normal physical sports:
If you can't understand the similarities in terms of contracts, teams, professional teams, managers, media, drafts, mandatory daily practice to keep on top, etc, then there's no reason for you to respond. I hate having to explain things about myself (irl) to an online forum that basically could just say "I don't believe you" and there's nothing you can do about it because you simply don't care enough to push it farther with lolonlinechat.
I have been a real athlete my entire life. I started training in Tae-Kwon-Do Gukaewon method when I was 6 years old, studied Dragon Shaolin for 4 years, and then Wing Chun for the last 2 (until present day). I did professional competition for 11 years. I was crowned regionals champion 8 times, world champion 2 times, and I've fought before the Grand Master Yip Chun. I'm currently involved with film and trying to become an action star in USA, and I practice and work out every single day to keep myself up to snuff. Coming from someone with THIS MUCH of an athletic background (and this is only my martial arts aspect, I can go much much farther), I see similarities that can be drawn between the two. Whenever you go into a "professional"-ANYTHING, your life pretty much becomes that thing. Whether its a sport, esport, career path, life ambition, etc, the same elements exist for both.
Do I think that there are differences? Abso-freakin-lutely. Do I also think that similarities can be drawn to many like elements? Again, the answer is Abso-freakin-lutely. The main one being that a game can continue to evolve and grow over time. This is incredibly apparent in what we would call "normal sports" since the games have been around for so long. This is only just NOW starting to become apparent in eSport games. Go back 50 to 100 years in any sport existing on the planet. I guarantee you it wasn't played the same back then the way it is now. Is it RADICALLY different? No, you just apply the new rules or playing styles to achieve the same end (to win). The exact same thing exists for eSport gaming.
One world is physically demanding, time-demanding, and dominant world-wide. The other world is a new realm of mentally demanding, time-demanding, and not-so-dominant-yet world-wide. Our job as members of this community is to continue to support the scene, and help it to grow and evolve into something long-lasting. I want to see both Sports and E-Sports making it happen alongside each other. I don't see how adding career paths world-wide could really turn out to be so bad.
very good thread , but 1 ideea is wrong, no matter if you are E---- or A ++++ if you play an oponent of the same lvl u will have fun ,so if 2 players who never played bw , play now a game they will have fun ofcourse if you are E and u play a C u will be crushed , but that can be also cool to see what can be done in a game , and to see where u need to evolve
p.s when u are playing sc1 or 2 at a 150+ apm u don't see any graphics or here almost any sound, so this slow sc2 players below 100 they just look at an scv how he brings minerals and say wowwwwwwwwwwww
Great post, and I agree with pretty much everything written. Then again, I love BW, so I'm biased.
While I'm glad funnybananaman made the effort, I really can't see fans of SC2 changing their opinions, and stop posting their clearly shit-stirring posts. The problem is that people aren't looking at the arguments logically when it comes to BW vs SC2. Comments are almost always based on raw emotions, and that's why I can't see anything changing, no matter how logical or articulate people are with their arguments.
Still, hopefully funnybananaman feels better for getting this off his chest, and I for one applaud the fact that he took the time to try and educate the stirrers.
Nice post. I was actually thinking about the exact same bw - sport comparison just yesterday. Bw is such a simple, yet such a powerful construct with a history like NO OTHER video game ever.
One thing that bothers me in this discussion is people say "bw isn't a sport" it's all sit-down and shit. Bw is as much of a sport as snooker is. Both highly competitive, both more metally exhausting than physically.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
Why don't you drop your pre assumptions about how stuff works/can work/should work and actually come up with some logical reasons to support your opinions.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
Why don't you drop your pre assumptions about how stuff works/can work/should work and actually come up with some logical reasons to support your opinions.
I don't think you can really compare Starcraft with real sports.
The thing about sports is that there can be no real improvements to the game, other than materials used. For example, a soccer field can be outfitted with new turf and players will wear lighter, better clothes and cleats. The reason why is because improvements are not needed. The action is always great to watch, since there's nothing more high-definition than real life. And the method of broadcasting sports will only improve in quality over time.
Broadcasting Starcraft games has improved as well, as we could see for the past 12 years. The one downside to computer games is that they quickly become outdated in terms of quality, right? Starcraft is really pixelated and grainy compared to the newest games. So, several years down the road, it'd be hard to justify why people are still broadcasting Starcraft when the quality is so "bad" relative to the current games.
Unless, Starcraft can be like Super Smash Bros, and keep updating the quality of their game without affecting the gameplay too much. But, of course, Starcraft2 isn't a simple graphics update.
For example: I thought Quake2 had pretty good graphics. But I was blown away by Quake3, then Quake4. Shooter games nowadays just own those past games in terms of graphics so much. In the end, to hold wide appeal, it has to look good too. Starcraft has been in a league of it's own for a long time. But now, Starcraft2 is a rival game with better graphics and the same, great resource-emphasized gameplay. Once Starcraft2 gets a few more patches and becomes really balanced, then Starcraft1 will sadly become less loved. I probably won't buy Starcraft2 though.
On September 29 2010 19:51 XsebT wrote: Nice post. I was actually thinking about the exact same bw - sport comparison just yesterday. Bw is such a simple, yet such a powerful construct with a history like NO OTHER video game ever.
One thing that bothers me in this discussion is people say "bw isn't a sport" it's all sit-down and shit. Bw is as much of a sport as snooker is. Both highly competitive, both more metally exhausting than physically.
i still think its safe to say that bw is the game with the most high skill ceiling ever... and its one of the hardest games to master that were ever made..
great article. sums up my feelings basically. I really like the idea of Blizzard releasing a higher graphic version of Starcraft, that would keep it relevant
First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
Very interesting read and some good arguments from most of the posts in this thread so far.
1. In my opinion real sports and e-sports can surely be compared like some of the posters already mentioned. Examples like chess, snooker or darts are good examples to link the requirements of sports and e-sports, to compare the physical efforts of one with mental efforts of the other.
2. My second opinion is, that the existence of SCII doesn't make playing SCI obsolete, because they're two different games. If you look at the case of CS and CS:Source it becomes a bit clearer. Before the release of CS:S, everybody said, that CS is going to die as soon as its successor is going to be released. But that didn't happen. Because after a few months of playing CS:S most of the "switchers" who jumped over from CS to CS:S realized that they weren't able to hold their skill-level as it has been at CS and switched back, after complaining badly about the game, stating that it only requires noob-aiming. However, both games nowadays have their own communities and stabilized as proper e-sport disciplines. That is exactly, what is going to happen with the SCI, WC3 and the new SCII communities. Some people will stay at the new game, some people will change to SCII and back and some people are going to stay at SCI. So that's the way it goes and we should start to see SCII not as a game that is going to replace SCI in terms of e-sport relevance, but rather as a game that is broadening the spectrum of competitive games. SCII will lead to a new community that coexists besides the existing WC3-, SCI and other strategy-game-communities.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
man i love reading completely uninformed opinions its so fun
Great read. I can't wait for the '10-'11 season for brood war. Even though I haven't actually played more brood war in 3-4 years, I still quite enjoy it from a spectator's perspective. And even though I play sc2 exclusively and enjoy the GSL, the professional SC2 scene is severely lacking on the skill front except at the very top.
Compare that to even lower level proleague matches, where ALL the pros are doing what seems to be super-human feats of timing and multitasking. It will always be exhilarating to watch, from my perspective.
I just hope it doesn't ever lose it's charm for the top players. Playing BW lost it's charm with me ages ago because I sucked at it. I guess I'm pretty casual compared to current BW players. But my love for the e-sport is undying.
This is such an awesome post that I wish everyone on Teamliquid reads it (sadly, only small fraction actually will).
And this is exactly why I wish SC2 was never made. Just imagine what would've happen to BW then? Nothing! We'd probably still watch professional BW in 20 years, pretty much the same way we watch every other sport. Not saying this still can't happen, even with SC2 threatening BW's existence, but now it's just much more unnecessarily harder.
I don't know about you guys but I'm a big fan of Chess 2 and Baseball 2.
The key is that new is not always better, particularly with a product as intricate as a balanced RTS.With a system as volatile as a high end RTS, balance and more importantly long term balance, are not an easy thing. Couple this with the fact that balance and enjoyable to watch are really the only features of an e-sport and you can see how a newer but less balanced game will be inferior.
Now, seeing as Blizzard is going to patch the heck out of SC2 for the next 8+ years with no balance support for BW and I am forced to agree that I believe SC2 will eventually wrest the mantle of king of esports from BW. But that wont happen for a long time, there is such a huge gap between a leessang rok match and anything you see in SC2 that we have time left.
Fantastic post. I agree with most of what you wrote. However, if we want e-sports to grow outside of Korea, I feel like it will have to take a more modern game like SC2. People in the west simply don't get e-sports, and I don't think that a 12 year old game has any hope of making them understand at this point. Though of course there is absolutely no reason why BW has to be brushed under the rug more than it already is. I really hope that the professional BW leagues in Korea stay in tact for a long time to come.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
Sigh, unfortunately SC2 has also caused an influx of a great number of terrible posters on TL.
Broadcasting Starcraft games has improved as well, as we could see for the past 12 years. The one downside to computer games is that they quickly become outdated in terms of quality, right? Starcraft is really pixelated and grainy compared to the newest games. So, several years down the road, it'd be hard to justify why people are still broadcasting Starcraft when the quality is so "bad" relative to the current games.
I know that tons of people make this argument, but I totally disagree with it. I think there is a minimal, at best, correlation bwtween graphics and enjoyment. Good graphics don't make a game better, or more interesting to watch. If BW was updated to 3D and HD and still played the same as 640*480 BW, I wouldn't find the HD BroodWar any more interesting than its predecessor. Honestly in some ways the simple "outdated" graphics make it much easier to see what is going on in the game. I had, and still have to some extent, some difficulty identifying exactly whats in an army composition in SC2, and instantly recognizing some of the buildings doesn't always happen for me. All else being equal, a game having great graphics can make it marginally better, but for me its a pretty minimal thing.
I disagree completely with BW being accessible to casual gamers. You need high APM to do anything in that game. People in TL keep complaining about removing MBS and automine and the like, but even with the interface improvements in SC2, casual players are still more intimidated by SC2 than by basketball. Plenty of people didn't bother with SC2 because they were intimidated by the APM requirements to play the game.
Multiplayer SC2, to a casual observer, is just as intimidating as tackle football, where you can get seriously injured. BW is even less casual friendly. I think many posters here are looking with blinders on and just forget how important the casual fanbase is compared to the hardcore one.
Nice post. I should add that despite some speculations SCBW is easily accessible by any noob. Some people just don't ready for actual competitive play but try it anyway. Have you join football club right after buying a ball? What about some free play with your friends or some street commands? I'm casual player and hit d/d+ after a month of play without any particular dedication. Really, I found current state more interesting than smashing some plat noobs.
Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
This post made my day. Seriously those pics are too much of an Amazing to begin with. GG indeed
Right now esports goes through it's ups and downs because everyone is trying to make a quick buck on it. BW was a great VIDEO GAME and it is great at a highly competitive level, but when esports stabilizes into something that is global with true pro gamers on a GLOBAL scale (everyone outside of korea seems to think that just because you wear a tag you are professional, even if you conduct yourself like a 12 year old internet kiddy) I have a feeling it will be focused on team-oriented games.
The biggest problem though is you have game developers trying to cash in on the hype behind esports.
What is needed is a company to develop games for many genres specifically designed for esports from the ground up. With the sole intention of making esports stable and credible. You can not say blizzard operates for the sake of esports, so blizzard is not the company we should be looking towards for the evolution of esports.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
Why can't sports/chess be compared to bw? they both have competitive scenes, they have niches for spectators, they both require much skill. I would argue that both bw and sports are physical. bw you do need the multitasking and hand eye coordination, and also you need to have that mentality to win, in the same case for sports. Just because the progamers hand eye coordination affects what happens inside a computer, does not make it incomparable to the baseball/basketball, etc players who use their hand eye coordination and physical skills to control the pace of whatever their game is.
Let's pretend that ICCup rating is the standard BW ranking system (well, it is, really). Chess usually uses ELO or an ELO-based rating. Now, iCCup only applies to people who are already good enough to care how good they are, and doesn't really apply to most progamers; the corresponding chess ELO usually would run from about 1000-2400. 1000 would be a bad serious player, like a D- BW player; 2400 is a requirement for Grandmaster (pro- or Olympic level in BW). As a chess player I tend to sit around 1400, which (I think) would be equivalent to C-.
Your average chess player who hasn't studied is going to end up floating around at 600-800 usually, same as the "E" and "F" Broodwar players we joke about trying to a-move to victory. (Also like Broodwar, there's an "easy race" for most people: White.) In fact, chess is really an excellent comparison for BW, because - although for very different reasons - it's also playable by almost anybody, but extremely difficult to even be competent on the grand scale. Fortunately for it, BW is much easier to watch without already knowing the game.
bw did have its time and its time to move on to sc2
What make you feel so? It seems like people just made lemming move towards SC2 due to the title name. So, what if blizz made Warcrfat 4 instead? or Diablo The RTS game? Or we should always drop current game and switch to the newest one? We have two different games. Why one should exclude another? You can play both SC or SC2 and even add Civ 5 or choose one just like with any other games.
I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005 when I went off to university. Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum. Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of competetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad.
On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote: I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005. Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
The problem with your reasoning is that you've equated "getting back into an established scene" (aka playing on iccup) with "being accessible to casuals". A random basketball player can't just go play in the top gym league in the city, which is essentially what iccup is. That doesn't mean basketball isn't accessible to casuals though.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote: I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005. Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum. Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of cometetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad.
That's a terrible argument, the more developed and established it is, the more legitimate it should be. Just like every other sport.. And the way to play matchups aren't set at all. The vast majority of people will never break C- rank and even then, you can do 4 hatch ling allin ZvP and it works out fine. Or lurker slow drop into fast guardians in ZvT. Until you get to like A-, it really isn't that set in stone.
On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote: I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005. Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum. Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of cometetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad.
That's a terrible argument, the more developed and established it is, the more legitimate it should be. Just like every other sport.. And the way to play matchups aren't set at all. The vast majority of people will never break C- rank and even then, you can do 4 hatch ling allin ZvP and it works out fine. Or lurker slow drop into fast guardians in ZvT. Until you get to like A-, it really isn't that set in stone.
I'm not really trying to argue anything per se, Im saying that brood war is very legit and currently a lot more deeper than SC2.
I am just trying to show how things look from someone who used to play BW but for one reason or another had to stop playing and sees SC2 as another chance to get back into RTS again and how this sort of mindset will effect BW in the future. As SC2 has a chance to reduce the influx of BW players.
If you are picking something to play would you pick something that is, old, very developed, with a high skill differential. Or something that is shiny, new, that is still developing, and by hopping it early right now you can have a lead vs being so much behind in BW.
You can see why SC2 is so attractive, especially right now. It allows people who have gotten behind in BW a clean slate. A chance to start over new and be part of the developent.
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant.
That's pretty much what so many people said when WC3 got released, I seriously wish I could find these threads again. Why exactly would BW have been able to grow with WC3 existing, but no longer with SC2? Because SC2 is SC with a 2 at the end, therefore rendering the former one obsolete? I'm not implying this is automatically your point, but sadly that's the way most people think.
There is no more reason for BW to "stay stagnant" now than there was when WC3 got released. Matchups are still evolving at pro level (these days the changing ones are mostly TvZ and ZvZ, and I personally foresee PvT being the next one), and the fans are still showing up in masses (studios looked packed from the beginning to the end of last pro-season). That's exactly what every sport in the world needs to be alive.
On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote: I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005. Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum. Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of cometetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad.
That's a terrible argument, the more developed and established it is, the more legitimate it should be. Just like every other sport.. And the way to play matchups aren't set at all. The vast majority of people will never break C- rank and even then, you can do 4 hatch ling allin ZvP and it works out fine. Or lurker slow drop into fast guardians in ZvT. Until you get to like A-, it really isn't that set in stone.
I'm not really trying to argue anything per se, Im saying that brood war is very legit and currently a lot more deeper than SC2.
I am just trying to show how things look from someone who used to play BW but for one reason or another had to stop playing and sees SC2 as another chance to get back into RTS again and how this sort of mindset will effect BW in the future as SC2 has a chance to reduce the influx of BW players.
If you are picking something to play would you pick something that is, old, very developed, with a high skill differential already developed. Or something that is shiny, new, that is still developing, and by hopping it early right now you can have a lead vs being so much behind in BW.
You can see why SC2 is so attractive, especially right now. It allows people who have gotten behind in BW a clean slate. A chance to start over new and be part of the developent.
Yea fair enough, it's a sad truth that we have to accept. I'm still hoping that sc2 ends up drawing a new crowd to Broodwar and sc2 dies out leaving Broodwar bigger than before
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you.
Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Just throwing out my stance on ideas comparing the updates to other sports on sc2 as being an update to brood war, i think thats pretty different. SC2 is really a whole new game not an update, other than all the lore and things like that they're really different.
That said though, i think keeping sports updated is great and it'd be awesome if blizzard still cared about updating brood war. If they released a "brood war 1.5" that had all the great observer features of sc2, lan latency and anti-hack built in across the board, 12 player slots, maybe some new built in computer AIs, replays that you could rewind and never glitched, i would be extremely happy.
And i think those are more valid comparisons to updates in other sports (improved baseballs in baseball, etc). And other things like improved rackets, shoes, swim suits (those controversial ones used in the olympics that make you glide farther or whatever) are closer to having a special awesome progamer mouse, keyboard, mousepad, chair, monitor, etc.
And also just putting it out there this is in no way a prediction of what will happen with brood war. And while the whole thing is true about sponsors spending a lot of money making tournaments for sc2 and supporting it in ways that brood war can't compete with, the only reason that happens is because they sponsor the thing that they think people want to see the most. And they think (right or wrong, probably right) that most of the community cares more about SC2 then it does about Brood War. But if that wasn't the case there would definitely still be sponsors for brood war tournaments. You need to realize that the community's interest is what dictates the sponsors it isn't the other way around. Yes i understand it can be a little bit of a catch-22 but its incredibly easy to overcome if we want to overcome it.
Also BW is definitely accessible to the public and amateurs, there could easily be high school and college Brood War teams (CSL anybody?) like there are chess teams and basketball teams. (mix of intellectual difficulty and live action packed atmosphere albeit not in the same way as basketball but its still comparable). Yes it sounds crazy but that should never factor in to your mind, at one point in time black kids and white kids going to the same school seemed crazy to everyone. Yes the culture isn't very ready to embrace it, but then again does our culture really embrace chess teams? I realize this isn't going to happen but its easily possible if the interest was there. But you have to believe that and know how much power we have as the consumers if you want to get anywhere with it.
Brood war doesn't HAVE to be replaced "because its the natural order of things", and if it is replaced its because the community as vast vast majority either wants it to happen or doesn't care if it happens or not (in which case it will because blizzard wants it to happen). Also all of this doesn't apply to the shitty legal authority blizzard has over things ofc they could shut the game down like they're trying to with proleague. But that probably wont happen. Shit now i'm kind of getting off topic in my own thread this really has more to do with the other thread i made oh well...
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you.
Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Sorry, I dont want to be harsh, how old are you? seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population, I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 but that is not what you mean I suposse, it is great that you bought a TL shirt , but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont.
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you.
Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Sorry, I dont want to be harsh, how old are you? seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population, I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 but that is not what you mean I suposse, it is great that you bought a TL shirt , but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont.
"but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont." "Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea." Your question was answered.
"seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population" "I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 " You answered your own question.
What more answers do you want? SC2 is right now more appealing in Europe and North America. In population Europe + North America > Korea = SC2 appeals to larger population.
The difference is though, is that in Korea BW is highly regarded as a general spectator sport, whereas outside of Korea, it is not.
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you.
Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Sorry, I dont want to be harsh, how old are you? seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population, I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 but that is not what you mean I suposse, it is great that you bought a TL shirt , but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont.
The only thing we've had in recent times that compares to IEM or MLG is WCG. We'll end up having four of those events combined in about three months after MLG DC and IEM New York.
I'm not comparing SC2 to the korean scene, I'm comparing the SC2 scene to the BW scene.
Even GSL - while it is in korea, it still is an open tournament with quite large prizes.
It should be obvious that SC2 appeals to more people outside of korea. Just look at the TL forum numbers before and after. I've talked to literally dozens of people at school and from other areas of real life about SC2 in passing. Sure they aren't the hardcore fans, but the hardcore fans aren't what makes a game widespread. I've talked to maybe 2-3 people that actually played brood war on a regular basis.
I don't want to bring my age into this because I've been playing and following brood war for as long as many people have here. As far as what I know about marketing, what makes an eSport yea, I might not have perfect knowledge there, but I feel like I have enough to base an opinion on.
If you must know, I'm 15, high school sophomore in New York City.
You should consider playing SC2 before writing a giant wall of text saying it's just a fun game that can never become an esport. SC2 will become greater than broodwar and you people just don't want to let go of your nostalgic feelings, I think you are too old for the gaming world. Try and find a really old game of starcraft before broodwar and you'll see it's nothing compared to the game it is now, SC2 will be the same.
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
so true (and lovely pics ^^)
If you guys rlly think its esport when some tournaments are played and sponsors randomly throw money at it ur totally wrong. wait 3 4 years till blizzard will announce Wc4 or another RTS and iam so damn sure SCII will go down so fast. like i said in some threads already SCII will be just another "good" RTS until the next good one comes out and then its gone. and stop kidding urself that u will see real esports in the west for hm like the next 10-20 years. until people like "us" are "old" and accept it... but yeah SCII is awesome right now every stupid sponsor is throwing money at it and is hosting random tournaments WOHO. thats esports YES.
the kid above me... rlly? :D who would have thought games these days with 10 years + of High level RTS play are better then back in the days ! WOW !.
btw i never found someone who told me why SCII is better then SC:BW Oo
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
so true (and lovely pics ^^)
If you guys rlly think its esport when some tournaments are played and sponsors randomly throw money at it ur totally wrong. wait 3 4 years till blizzard will announce Wc4 or another RTS and iam so damn sure SCII will go down so fast. like i said in some threads already SCII will be just another "good" RTS until the next good one comes out and then its gone. and stop kidding urself that u will see real esports in the west for hm like the next 10-20 years. until people like "us" are "old" and accept it... but yeah SCII is awesome right now every stupid sponsor is throwing money at it and is hosting random tournaments WOHO. thats esports YES.
the kid above me... rlly? :D who would have thought games these days with 10 years + of High level RTS play are better then back in the days ! WOW !.
btw i never found someone who told me why SCII is better then SC:BW Oo
You can't really define a "better" game. If you took a survey of everyone in the world, the vast majority would rather play and watch SC2 than brood war, and say that it's a better game. Does that make it better? Only you can decide for yourself.
^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still...
On September 30 2010 08:32 mierin wrote: ^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still...
Why should it? What I'm saying is that there's no concrete way to define a better game.
SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
On September 30 2010 08:32 mierin wrote: ^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still...
This is like finding an answer to why people prefer soccer to american football. You can't quantify how "fun" watching a game is because it's completely personal preference.
Saying something is "more developed" means nothing.
On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
Why does SC2 have to repeat the relative success of BW? There is nothing wrong with SC2 being another fun RTS game that countless people love playing. E-Sports do survive outside Korea, albeit in a different fashion. It's the competitive scene that makes e-Sports, not the games involved. Where is your gamer camaraderie?
2 TOloseGT I dont care about "yet another fun RTS game" I care about eSport scene which I like to watch and follow. It is wrong to destroy one home without having another one ready. We have a lot another fun games and stuff to do in your spare time, but we have quite limited number of developed eSport's titles.
It's the competitive scene that makes e-Sports, not the games involved.
Soo, game have nothing to do with its own competitive and entertainment abilities? what?
On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
Completely agree here. While SC2 is what brought me back into RTS, it is still unproven and shouldn't be being showed ppls throats like it seems to be.
On September 30 2010 09:21 Yodo wrote: 2 TOloseGT I dont care about "yet another fun RTS game" I care about eSport scene which I like to watch and follow. It is wrong to destroy one home without having another one ready. We have a lot another fun games and stuff to do in your spare time, but we have quite limited number of developed eSport's titles.
It's the competitive scene that makes e-Sports, not the games involved.
Soo, game have nothing to do with its own competitive and entertainment abilities? what?
When new games come out, the e-sports scene adapt to them. That's the difference between real sports and competitive gaming. They're under completely different mediums, and while games will change in e-sports, the competitiveness of those gamers will not. That's what I was getting at.
There are several dominant games right now, but will those games still be there 10-15 years from now? Not likely.
On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
Completely agree here. While SC2 is what brought me back into RTS, it is still unproven and shouldn't be being showed ppls throats like it seems to be.
SC2 has not been shoved down anyone's throat. People choose to switch games. No one forced anything on the BW proscene except for the natural process of aging, which is one of the vices of computer games.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
so basically you come to an E-sports community to put down E-sports?
The problem with E-sports is that even people who love BW dont take it seriously enough as a competitive sport to look past their own cultural stigma that video games couldn't possibly be put on an even footing with mainstream sports.
SC2 has not been shoved down anyone's throat. People choose to switch games. No one forced anything on the BW proscene except for the natural process of aging, which is one of the vices of computer games.
If Blizzard/Gretech taking legal action against the korean broadcasters isnt shoving SC2 down our throats i dont know what is.
On September 30 2010 11:57 ZeroChrome wrote: The problem with E-sports is that even people who love BW dont take it seriously enough as a competitive sport to look past their own cultural stigma that video games couldn't possibly be put on an even footing with mainstream sports.
Why not? Because our society has an overall negative view of video games? This can easily change over time. Pre-Boxer it was the same in Korea for the most part. But the presence of groups like Kespa legitimizes the game as an e-sport. We could have something like that happen as well.
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you.
Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Since the announcement of SC2, and availability of GOM english commentary, there has been plenty of new incomers as spectators of pro BW, they don't even play. I saw it happen IRL around me, with my own eyes. Since word of GOMTV started spreading, quite a few people at lans started talking about flash, one of my friends who played WoW even showed me GOMTV and said he was addicted to watching it.
However support for BW outside of korea since then has dropped, along with SC2 which has slowed progress quite considerably. The main problem is not the graphics, its that there is simply not enough support for people who play and watch BW.
There currently is a lot more support for the foreigner scene for SC2 than BW. GSL english commentary, Day9 daily, pro foreigners all moving to SC2, friends playing, etc.
Right now though, the only game to make it properly as an e-sport is BW, and the success rate is very low, 1/1000 chance for any competitive game would be my guess. There are plenty of e-sport-esque games out there in WCG, so far BW is the only one that has truly made it.
On September 30 2010 11:57 ZeroChrome wrote: The problem with E-sports is that even people who love BW dont take it seriously enough as a competitive sport to look past their own cultural stigma that video games couldn't possibly be put on an even footing with mainstream sports.
Why not? Because our society has an overall negative view of video games? This can easily change over time. Pre-Boxer it was the same in Korea for the most part. But the presence of groups like Kespa legitimizes the game as an e-sport. We could have something like that happen as well.
I think its more that we are used to mainstream sports being like fixed entities in our lives, but video games being a sort of passing thing that changes every year to keep people interested. Then when games come along that have the same qualities that give sports their longevity come around it is hard to fully comprehend that a video game could actually keep people interested for a long time.
I do agree with you that without organizations like Kespa and figures like Boxer esports wont be accepted in the west. E-sports could be successful in our societies, but it would take many years even with Kespa/Boxer equivalents, attitudes towards gaming are still too negative by too many people.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
I'm not going to argue on the matter of "eSports = sport?," but I will mention that regardless of how Koreans practice (and I know you can't put in 12 hours practicing the physical aspects of a sport, which is like 99% of what you'll be practicing) but didn't Idra mention how practicing 12 hours/day is totally sub-optimal?
The problem that we have with comparing e-sports to sports is the medium in which the event is played.
Sports are played in real life. Video games are not. You play video games through an engine that has specific limitations. If new things are invented, your engine can't handle them or incorporate them into the game. This requires games to have sequels, or else they will get incredibly dull. All sports have evolved immensely, but they're still being played with the same basic "engine", if you want to compare them to a video game. In 50 years, when we can all play video games and control things with our minds and do crazy shit in a virtual world, it would be incredibly archaic and basically a waste of time to use so much effort on an interface that's incredibly old even for today's standards. These are the kinds of problems e-sports face.
The problem with your reasoning is that you've equated "getting back into an established scene" (aka playing on iccup) with "being accessible to casuals". A random basketball player can't just go play in the top gym league in the city, which is essentially what iccup is. That doesn't mean basketball isn't accessible to casuals though.
Learning the rather intuitive basics of playing any sport is much, much easier than learning the basics of BW, especially in our culture. BW has an incredibly outdated interface that makes everything a complete pain in the ass. 99% of people would play it and immediately quit upon seeing how difficult it is to do the simplest tasks when compared to any other current-day game. This is the kind of inaccessibility that BW has.
On September 30 2010 14:46 Stratos_speAr wrote: The problem that we have with comparing e-sports to sports is the medium in which the event is played.
Sports are played in real life. Video games are not. You play video games through an engine that has specific limitations. If new things are invented, your engine can't handle them or incorporate them into the game. This requires games to have sequels, or else they will get incredibly dull. All sports have evolved immensely, but they're still being played with the same basic "engine", if you want to compare them to a video game. In 50 years, when we can all play video games and control things with our minds and do crazy shit in a virtual world, it would be incredibly archaic and basically a waste of time to use so much effort on an interface that's incredibly old even for today's standards. These are the kinds of problems e-sports face.
I can see what you're saying. Part of the appeal of sports originates from its constant evolution. Things are much more dynamic in the real world. Football plays evolve. Team dynamics evolve. Personal skills evolve( technique, shooting % , etc etc). Technology evolves ( better ratchets, running shoes). Best yet, how each game turn out can be completely unexpected, teams/underdogs often amazing plays that upset the most expert of predictions.
What I want to challenge is that, despite being restricted to a set engine, bw has incredible depth, which more than compensates for its limitations. This depth is profound enough that, for a decade now, players have been continuously discovering and redefining aspects of this engine, significantly changing the game in ways similar to other sports.
Forget the countless strategies, differing timings and counters over the years. Forget the ever changing map pools that alters the racial balance. The greatest part about BW is the emergence of new players that completely revolutionize how we understand and approach the game. Who, just when they seem invincible, are countered and completely crushed by the next guy. Is this the same dynamic nature we see in "real-life" sports?
Instead of better plays, we have more complex strategies and more precise timings. Instead of personal skills, we have sharper mechanics and better macro. Even in terms of technological change, I can argue that incorporating underused units like valks in tvz ( queens vice versa), signifies modern day improvements in the game. And old-school players can still upset newer players through mind games, better strategies, and simple pure grit. I consider their comebacks no less epic than any other sport.
Anyway, sport or not, since its inception as a new spectator "sport," bw has shown enough evolutions that not only match, but eclipse many other competitive games I've see. I'm not so worried about players losing innovation ( they never have in the past), nor any particular players "solving" the game ( Flash will slow down one day, everyone does). If marketing schemes and outside politics doesn't kill this e-sport, the bw league itself isn't going to die out.
On September 30 2010 08:32 mierin wrote: ^Does that include only people who have watched both SC2 AND BW? Because I can't imagine anyone having "more fun" watching stuff like the GSL than the OSL/MSL/PL (it's just so much more developed!). It's entertaining, for sure (Cool FIGHTING) but still...
This is like finding an answer to why people prefer soccer to american football. You can't quantify how "fun" watching a game is because it's completely personal preference.
Saying something is "more developed" means nothing.
On September 30 2010 08:57 Yodo wrote: SC2 has huge popularity in NA, good in Europe and mediocre in Asia. It can be easy tracked by the number of bnet accounts per region ( NA - 461,109; EU - 349,385; Korea - 146,190; South Asia - 51,737). The big number of SC2 tourneys is temporary thing, it is part of PR and hype and will die after a 1-2 years. There is no eSport besides Korea, the current mass of non-korean SC2 players will halved after a two years and after a 5 - SC2 community will be oasis in wast desert of new games. Expansions can change it in a good way, but I doubt it. So, we have pretty nice and established eSport scene with great game, and now we should throw it out for the sake of fancy graphic and more user-friendly GUI? And what if SC2 fail to repeat success of SCBW? I find it quite possible. Then we kill SC1 and get nothing in exchange. At first SC2 should proves its ability to become eSport №1.
Why does SC2 have to repeat the relative success of BW? There is nothing wrong with SC2 being another fun RTS game that countless people love playing. E-Sports do survive outside Korea, albeit in a different fashion. It's the competitive scene that makes e-Sports, not the games involved. Where is your gamer camaraderie?
ppl want sc2 to be as good as bw if its gonna replace it. if it is crap, then they just killed bw for no reason.
I've avoided this topic for so long because the title seemed like it was some kind of flamebait, but now that I've read this, I have to say I agree completely. I'm glad you were able to articulate what I and many others could not.
On September 30 2010 14:46 Stratos_speAr wrote: The problem that we have with comparing e-sports to sports is the medium in which the event is played.
Sports are played in real life. Video games are not. You play video games through an engine that has specific limitations. If new things are invented, your engine can't handle them or incorporate them into the game. This requires games to have sequels, or else they will get incredibly dull. All sports have evolved immensely, but they're still being played with the same basic "engine", if you want to compare them to a video game. In 50 years, when we can all play video games and control things with our minds and do crazy shit in a virtual world, it would be incredibly archaic and basically a waste of time to use so much effort on an interface that's incredibly old even for today's standards. These are the kinds of problems e-sports face.
The problem with your reasoning is that you've equated "getting back into an established scene" (aka playing on iccup) with "being accessible to casuals". A random basketball player can't just go play in the top gym league in the city, which is essentially what iccup is. That doesn't mean basketball isn't accessible to casuals though.
Learning the rather intuitive basics of playing any sport is much, much easier than learning the basics of BW, especially in our culture. BW has an incredibly outdated interface that makes everything a complete pain in the ass. 99% of people would play it and immediately quit upon seeing how difficult it is to do the simplest tasks when compared to any other current-day game. This is the kind of inaccessibility that BW has.
Real life has limitations too, we have gravity for a start, we also have worse clarity and the race differentials are mostly based on country of origin and nothing substantial. BW has a much larger amount of metrics in which to measure a players ability other than the scoreboard, as well as 2 alien races, and a bunch of other things not worth arguing about.
The interface doesn't affect spectators, only the players. And honestly, you are talking about something that is > 50 years away and may never happen (there was a time people thought we'd all be living in outer space by the year 2000), yet people are considering phasing out BW now.
I actually think the SC2 interface is the worst piece of crap ever made. It honestly drives me insane, because it is so easy to accidentally re-assign control groups, move the camera where you don't want it to go, because of all the shitty buttons that popup on the screen. You can't even box without clicking a button that will slowly and agonisingly move your camera to the last created unit.
Learning the basics of BW is easier than all sports, you just have to use a mouse and click, and its pretty hard to fuck up. Now compare that to dribbling a basketball. Attacking is simple, box units, click where to attack. Compare that to getting a ball in the hoop, pretty surprising how the basics of starcraft have a 100% success rate for absolute nooby to any basics in basketball.
Its just that everyone who plays BW right now is so good, nothing to do with the basics. If as many people played BW as did with any other major sport, we wouldn't have a problem with entry level as there would be enough crap people to beat so you don't feel overwhelmed. If only hardcores played SC2 like with BW, we would have the exact same problem with SC2.
BW is a much simpler game to SC2 because there is a lot less to think about and ways to do things. Theres no macro mechanics so you don't autowin if you happen to know it and your opponent doesn't, only 1 gas, you don't have MBS so from the very beginning you are making units the right way. MBS and automining only makes the game easier, if you are the only one that can do it, and nobody else, therefore it doesn't actually make entry any easier. Low dps/defensive units/strong static defence so you can defend easily, T1 units from all races are viable through late game, deciding which units to make is simple (e.g zerg make hydras/lings, protoss makes zealots/dragoons, terran tanks/marines) as these units are viable against almost anything.
Where as in SC2 you can win by just being lucky, this can't happen in BW because the easiest units to make can defend any other easy to make units. For example, marines can beat dragoons, lings can beat zealots, these matchups go both ways though making it down to macro and unit control. In SC2, there are completely hard counters which appear very early in the game, making matchups in the beginner level at-least very unstable.
On September 30 2010 15:55 Raz0r wrote: ppl want sc2 to be as good as bw if its gonna replace it. if it is crap, then they just killed bw for no reason.
Sorry I dunno why this made me think of this but...
What significant sponsors have switched sides from BW to SC2 excluding its parent companies? If there are any, I'm unaware of their existence.
Stop arguing that SC2 is like vanilla SC. Just by uttering that argument, you therefore adhere to the belief that you are all jumping on board A HIGHLY IMBALANCED AND INCOMPLETE GAME. That, is bloody retarded no matter how you look at it. That's not even me insulting SC2 (I find it fun too). That's just me making you realize what the hell YOU were saying.
Lastly, those that still can't see the similarities between esports and normal sports... I refer you to my lengthy post on the 2nd page of this thread.
2 Diminotoor So, you say that SC2 has no impact on SCBW? Thats totally wrong. Its not all about sponsors, you know. Anyway I dont see how your post correlate with quoted text. Ppl used to do retarded things, even if SC2 will sucks, it can easily success SCBW due to PR, money, superior aesthetic and blizzard's lobby.
Great read I I agree with 99% of the stuff said. That 1% I'll leave it to my thoughts and get over it.
What I think about BW and Esports and games as sports in general is that it could take a while to become real Esport scene outside of Korea but heck one day when it comes true, I'll gladly say I played the game that opened that door (BW).
On September 30 2010 18:09 Yodo wrote: 2 Diminotoor So, you say that SC2 has no impact on SCBW? Thats totally wrong. Its not all about sponsors, you know. Anyway I dont see how your post correlate with quoted text. Ppl used to do retarded things, even if SC2 will sucks, it can easily success SCBW due to PR, money, superior aesthetic and blizzard's lobby.
I don't even begin to understand where or how many times you went wrong in your reading comprehension to come up with this for a response.
The quote made me think of what was in the link. The rest of the post is clearly just general responses not to that quoted text. I guess by not clicking the link, you didn't "get it".
The rest of my response shall be a list of itemized one-liners since I can completely shut all your arguments down with 1 simple phrase each:
-Progaming is all about sponsors and financial backing for the cultural demand. -The money existing in SC2's pool right now has been injected from the parent companies. -SC2 is only aesthetically superior to uneducated people who don't understand what it should've been. -Blizzard's lobby is looking so bad for them that Proleague and the Starleagues are continuing.
The problem with your reasoning is that you've equated "getting back into an established scene" (aka playing on iccup) with "being accessible to casuals". A random basketball player can't just go play in the top gym league in the city, which is essentially what iccup is. That doesn't mean basketball isn't accessible to casuals though.
I can't find the original quote but to whoever said this:
I think it would be more like a random basketball player in the ONLY organized gym league in the city that has divisions for players that are very bad and very good. As opposed with playing streetball with random ppl fucking around at the local park. And as i said in the OP its easily accessible to casual players you just have to put in a little effort and want to learn a couple things. Like chess.
Unfortunately, computer games are created as a product first, and a sport second, if at all. So obviously, like all products, they have a shelf life. We can only hope to develop e-sports in the future to a point where one game stands as a pinnacle of its genre and can strengthen and unify the scene for many years, even decades, to come. Brood War was the furthest we've come in this regard. I don't know if StarCraft II is that game, but once the expansions are released and it is balanced we will know.
I agree 10000000000000%. I hope proleague keeps running, and bw gets wide spread in some years as sc2 dies slowly into past. Sponsors will notice across the world, and turn bw in the XXI century chess
nip picking effort .. so ill nip pick JD and Stork who have "renewed" and set their goals higher for the coming season
also, like what some old timers who post in these website that have been following the scene for YEARS said, every off-season, the pro-scene has these kinds of issue (people leaving, etc.,) .. its normal ..
and courage is but a small part of it .. also, some people might have the idea that they think that if less people join courage, they will have better chance of winning .. and also, there were fresh draftees so again, not a really big deal or having the lack of new players is out of the picture regarding the future of BW as a bona fide e-sport ..
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
Edit: Added more.
I seriously have tears in my eyes even the 'ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.' pic
Basketball or any other sports are very easy to learn but it is the skill ceiling that is high. BW is hard to learn and ceiling skill maybe higher due to importance of reaction speed. SC2 is better than BW in terms of introducing the game to new players. People who have commented on SC2 ceiling, well they don't know that how high the ceiling is. High level players are still winning tournaments and seen some great micros. Is it pretty look at? Yes.
Now, is it pretty to look at as a spectator sport? No. Because it 'feels' easy. This is the problem is the learning curve. SC2 has the feeling (could be an illusion, don't know) that with a decent chunk time you could get better. With SC1, you reach a point where you go, even you think to yourself, Am I really getting better? (much like basketball or other sports). Then you look at the person next to you and realise they are better and it's possible. That's what makes a sport, a sport, looking at the very peak of current human ability, doing the impossible. So the question lies will SC2 ever reach that level? Will it makes someone say, WOW that's seems 'impossible' to do and they are doing it.
Only time will tell (not betting my one dollar on it though).
are people so insecure they need to bash a game that just came out 3 frigging months ago? I've been following BW pro scene for 2-3 years now and i find it awesome even though i have never played BW except for turret defense... now i play SC2 and follow its scene too and i do see that the SC2 pros are not comparable to the pros of SC1 but they are hell lot better than the pros of SCBW 3 months after it was released... let the pros find good strats for SC2, wait for 2 expansions and at least 5-10 balance patch before saying SC2 sucks...
if this wouldnt be the case i would feel sorry for the SCII "pros". they have a 10 year RTS top level background while SC:BW had what? hmmmmmmmmm nothing. so no wonder they are better nowadays then 10 years ago.
On October 01 2010 01:53 PetitCrabe wrote: are people so insecure they need to bash a game that just came out 3 frigging months ago? I've been following BW pro scene for 2-3 years now and i find it awesome even though i have never played BW except for turret defense... now i play SC2 and follow its scene too and i do see that the SC2 pros are not comparable to the pros of SC1 but they are hell lot better than the pros of SCBW 3 months after it was released... let the pros find good strats for SC2, wait for 2 expansions and at least 5-10 balance patch before saying SC2 sucks...
So you're saying SC2 sucks but it doesn't suck because it won't suck in a few years? Well, tell me when it stops sucking. Until then, I'll stick with nonsucky BW.
I think it comes down to different folks different strokes. KeSPA clearly doesn't want Starcraft 2 because it fragments the community between Brood Wars and SC2. KeSPA makes money on Brood Wars and it is not clear if they can or will transition to SC2. However, they don't own the Starcraft universe, Blizzard does. Blizzard benefits by expanding the universe even if that means fragmenting the player base and hurting Korean esport. Esport doesn't benefit Blizzard in any way as Brood War sales have fallen to a trickle, so they benefited most by creating SC2.
The funny thing about the people who say Blizzard shouldn't have made SC2 is that Brood Wars itself is a sequel and was not vanilla SC. When Brood Wars came out, vanilla SC multiplayer pretty much died. Basically, Blizzard has every right to make SC2, the players have ever right to choose what version of SC they play and the chips will fall where they may (Brood Wars may continue to be a popular Korean esport or the scene may move on).
Chess is also mentioned. The game was developed near the year 500. En passant, the two square first move for pawns and castling were all not added until around 1400. While not Chess 2, when people find a way to make games better, they evolve. Computers are changing at a very fast rate compared to board game technology, so naturally computer games evolve more quickly than board games.
On October 01 2010 01:53 PetitCrabe wrote: are people so insecure they need to bash a game that just came out 3 frigging months ago? I've been following BW pro scene for 2-3 years now and i find it awesome even though i have never played BW except for turret defense... now i play SC2 and follow its scene too and i do see that the SC2 pros are not comparable to the pros of SC1 but they are hell lot better than the pros of SCBW 3 months after it was released... let the pros find good strats for SC2, wait for 2 expansions and at least 5-10 balance patch before saying SC2 sucks...
So you're saying SC2 sucks but it doesn't suck because it won't suck in a few years? Well, tell me when it stops sucking. Until then, I'll stick with nonsucky BW.
Correction. He didn't say it wouldn't suck. He said people should wait to pass judgement. It MIGHT not suck, but it also could turn out to suck rather bad even after all the patching.
I wonder if we should follow the same logic with every other RTS that comes out though. I'm willing to bet that if people play the new DOW 2 expansion for long enough, and if Relic patches it for long enough, and if anyone but Relic and Intel and some obscure internet TV-program broadcasted it, it might not suck at all! It will reintroduce more base building, and I'm pretty sure they want to go farther with their franchise, as this is the second expansion that's coming out and lots of races haven't even been added! Also, SC2 kind of has had it's time in the sun, I mean the graphics are really outdated and my eyes hurt looking at them, it's also pointlessly difficult. I'd really like to see Flash, Jaedong, IdrA and TesteR to switch to DOW2 Retribution because sponsors will flock to the newer game and new strategies will definitely evolve. Just give it time AND A CHANCE. Either THIS, or E-sports will DIE.
Then again, this logic might also be bloody stupid and Brood war as an established E-sport might be the most awesome thing man has ever made. I sure as hell love it to death.
ONTOPIC: really great OP, even if it was just a reply to another post.
As for the second point: I feel that I am as casual as I can be in the BW scene. I would get terribly crushed by even solid D players, and lots of D- players, and I'll admit that I've played a ton of SC2 instead, but whenever one of my friends (that currently serve in the army) that are on the same skilllevel as me are able to play, these few games of BW are way, WAY more enjoyable for me. I do get better bit by bit, and switching strategies due to maps and mindgames is also fun as heck. If you find people as good as you are, the game is a blast even at sub D- .
On October 01 2010 02:47 segfix wrote:So you're saying SC2 sucks but it doesn't suck because it won't suck in a few years? Well, tell me when it stops sucking. Until then, I'll stick with nonsucky BW.
He is talking about the pro scene. Clearly three months after release SC2 doesn't have an established pro scene with like Jaedong or Flash because they haven't had any championships yet and the best players are still mastering that game. That being said, there are a ton of tournaments and a lot of broadcasts already for such a young game. His point was, three months after Brood Wars came out, the scene was nothing like the SC2 scene is today. Just give it a chance because perhaps both can coexist.
What he was not saying is that SC2 sucks as a game. If Brood Wars came out three months ago and SC2 was the established game, everyone would be tearing Brood Wars to shreds because of the poor automation such as resource gathering, limited ability to only select 12 units and the poor AI/path-finding. Give SC2 a chance, different doesn't always mean worse. Although there may be a few more balance patches as players are just exploring the advanced builds and strategies that you can do with the new units and maps.
Turtlebay, I think people who say sc2 sucks are a bit excessive here but...
... if it doesn't suck badly, it's CLEARLY inferior to its predecessor, on many points except maybe graphics (even debatable). If you'd have played enough of both games, you would know what i mean.
People in this thread think it's a pity that some teenagers say the better game has to go because "it's time to evolve", or other similar bullshit. I think educated people are ready to give sc2 "a chance", and both games can coexist. But there are so few chances it becomes even as good as broodwar, that the safe bet is for sure to keep playing the best game ever made and work on it for esport.
i feel like playing sc1 more and more. some of the primary reasons are that its already established, its greatly balanced and just looks good. The reason i don´t really want to do it is that it requires me to learn all the strats again and to be introduced with this harder game. Not sure. want to see sc2 get more fun, because atm, its pretty lame.
In the end it's all going to be a matter of Sponsorships & viewers rating. A Sport only survives if it have 3 things: Sponsors, Viewers and Prize.
The more viewers, the more sponsors will like to support the sport. The more sponsors, Bigger the prize will be. Bigger the prize, more viewers will become interested. The more viewers, .... you get the idea.
The trouble is that SC2 is already having HUGE prizes and the problem is that BW players can easily play SC2 (of course).
So BW & SC2 can't be compared to anything because there isn't a single sport that is able to substitute another sport as good as SC2 can be a substitute to BW
And why ? Because The prize pool will obviously make flash & jaedong to play SC2... and they will be freaking good at it, so they will substitute BW for SC2, or else it would be retarded... why wouldn't play a game that he can learn so fast and be able to win bigger prizes in the future ?.
Hey if every single basketball star, moved to a NEW GAME (not a one that already exist) called MARSketball 3000 and it had huge prizes as Basketball and after 1 year they will get even BIGGER prizes!!, then for sure all the fans will also support their teams in MARSketball 3000.
So the fans will just have to go to SC2 and the 8year old boy might be confused in the beginning but as soon as he sees his Idol Jaedong playing SC2, then he will also play SC2.
Esports is relative. In the reference frame of BW (herein referred to as S), BW appears to be at rest with respect to Esports, because the proscene is still there, there are still many BW players, and there are even people who switched (like me) who will probably go back at some point (when I have more time) and play again. The reference frame of SC2 (herein referred to as S`) is moving at a speed v with respect to S, the reference frame of BW. Therefore, to an observer in S`(the reference frame of SC2), S(the reference frame of BW) appears to be moving at a speed -v. This is where we get people who think BW is dying. Sponsors saw that S` was moving with a speed v with respect to Esports, and so they have jumped on. S` has to continue to move at a speed v with respect to Esports in order to succeed as an Esport. But does the fact that S` is moving at a speed v have any effect on the speed S is moving at with respect to Esports? No. The two reference frames are mutually exclusive.
+1 to Funnybananaman for an awesome post (never seen this good a post from him). By the way, I don't agree that SC2 should be the game for "casual players", any more than I agree with the fact that SC2 should replace BW . SC2 can have a really good, long-lasting scene IF Blizzard doesn't screw this up. But does that have any bearing on how BW does? Only reason I am not playing BW is because I honestly don't have the time. I'm too busy with relativistic physics. =)
Btw this thread should get featured or something. No self-respecting SC2 player goes to the BW section...
This Ajnin fellow completely misses the point, of course a 2010 ipod is superior in every respect to a 2003 ipod, improved gameplay isn't something that automatically comes from improved technology though...
I don't see why a game as complex and profoundly popular as BW cannot become a true sport and is played decades from now despite the graphics purely because of the skill required to play the game and the quality of the matches. I really believe that - while Blizzard and Gretech may have plans to the contrary it would make sense to me if BW and SC2 could exist alongside each other as both games are great to watch and play. They skill sets each while quite similar differ in enough ways that both can co-exist.
On October 01 2010 07:32 Drakan wrote: In the end it's all going to be a matter of Sponsorships & viewers rating. A Sport only survives if it have 3 things: Sponsors, Viewers and Prize.
The more viewers, the more sponsors will like to support the sport. The more sponsors, Bigger the prize will be. Bigger the prize, more viewers will become interested. The more viewers, .... you get the idea.
The trouble is that SC2 is already having HUGE prizes and the problem is that BW players can easily play SC2 (of course).
So BW & SC2 can't be compared to anything because there isn't a single sport that is able to substitute another sport as good as SC2 can be a substitute to BW
And why ? Because The prize pool will obviously make flash & jaedong to play SC2... and they will be freaking good at it, so they will substitute BW for SC2, or else it would be retarded... why wouldn't play a game that he can learn so fast and be able to win bigger prizes in the future ?.
Hey if every single basketball star, moved to a NEW GAME (not a one that already exist) called MARSketball 3000 and it had huge prizes as Basketball and after 1 year they will get even BIGGER prizes!!, then for sure all the fans will also support their teams in MARSketball 3000.
So the fans will just have to go to SC2 and the 8year old boy might be confused in the beginning but as soon as he sees his Idol Jaedong playing SC2, then he will also play SC2.
A sport is a business model. Plain simple.
Tournaments with Prize money is not where u want 2 be... u want 2 have it like BW or atleast something like that. but not that u have 2 hope u make enough money 2 get something 2 eat for the next months.
so no they wont switch to SCII because the tournament may have more Prize money. because they get the fucking salary which is save money and for people like flash and jaedong its more anyway.
but yeah the thinking "u guys" have is the reason why not 1 ! game will become rlly big in the west. everytime some new big game is announced u just go for it not matter how good or bad it is. u just go for it. because its new.
I'm starting to believe this SC2 versus SC : BW BS will surpass the ridiculous MBS debate. For those who weren't here, any MBS discussion was closed on sight for a number of months because it led nowhere and Blizzard was going to do it regardless of what people had to say. Many of us grew tired of the endless circular arguments.
I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to hear about this for the next five years. Hell, it might even take longer for this stupidity to play out. I say let Starcraft 2 mature. They got two expansions to make it 'right.' Even then what next? Starcraft 3 another ten years from now? Then what? The pros and hardcore players need the casuals just as much as they need each other. Whether you guys like it or not, you are in this together.
More viewership and exposure can only be a good thing because it will bring more money into the prize pools and hopefully more sponsors, but at what cost? Could it be a dead-end? It took years for the BW Pro Scene to take shape. The leagues had sponsorship from banks to chip companies like Pringles. Unfortunately, international sponsors still are computer-gaming related and have yet to branch out. It comes down to viability of the market and unfortunately E-Sports isn't there yet nor will it ever be if the gaming culture continues to evolve rapidly with new games and new youthful gamers coming into the mix with different expectations.
To summarize: the number one problem with E-Sports in Western society is that the games keep changing and so does it's base market. There is absolutely no longevity and as such most games can never grow, or fully mature. BW might be the only significant example of this and this only pertains to one small market: Korea. To kill off BW. You kill off the only proven RTS game with any sustainability.
Broodwar is an 'esport': it is enjoyed by people who have never played BW. SC2 is a nice, it is enjoyed only by those who play/are in the know.
Broodwar in Korea is an incredibly fortuitous set of circumstances arising in South Korea and South Korea alone; I don't believe that the success of BW in Korea can be replicated around the world. SC2 is too pretty (in reality: unintelligible to uninitiated viewers therefore of no worth to 'oi polloi') and obviously, and unsurprisingly, unbalanced in comparison to BW.
The problem with E-sports in Western society is that no game has overcome the 'nerd factor', has not arrived at the correct time as BW did in Korea; does not have the same set of unchanging rules as a physical support such as soccer has; i.e. the players are in some way subject to the developers which greatly weakens the supposed strength of the players (an example of this malleability in esports is the nature of debates about whether flash is as good as boxer etc, although this is certainly comparable to soccer). However, e-sports have too many flaws and too much prejudice (in most countries, i can't claim to know about all) to succeed. I don't know. Does anyone think that future SC2 tournaments will draw 1m+ viewers? Is that too narrow a paramater for succes for e-sports?
The SC2 players who say "OMFG U BASH A GAME THAT CAME OUT 3 MONTHS AGO SO INSECURE GIVE IT TIME" need to understand that most people saying that SC2 sucks are actually accounting for an indefinite future.
Yeah, ok, it hasn't had time for balance changes or for any real strategies to develop yet. Let's fast forward into a theoretical future when Blizzard has completely balanced all three races and the SC2 pro-scene still exists. Maybe there will be some harder micro involved, who knows? But certain things aren't going to change.
The skill ceiling is still going to be low due to MBS, automine, unlimited selection, autocast, etc. Everyone is going to be able to play the game to the max. Games will probably still consist of two balls 1a-ing into each other. There still won't be LAN. Everything will still be played on Bnet 2.0
Conclusion: Even if Brood War dies, and Starcraft 2 survives, the pro-scene of SC2 will never be as good as Brood War proscene today.
"The skill ceiling is still going to be low due to MBS, automine, unlimited selection, autocast, etc. "
Anything that lowers APM lowers the skill ceiling? That seems like a narrow definition of skill. Lets get rid of hotkeys. In fact get rid of all unit AI. Have it so that each SCV needs to be selected every trip they go to harvest minerals. Or use the Warcraft: Orc vs. Humans interface (I believe it was 4 units max selected). APM would go through the roof! Between Dune II and present the interface of RTS games has evolved, SC is somewhere in the middle and I don't see how it is more perfect than all interfaces before or after it, just at a certain spot on the evolution.
"Everyone is going to be able to play the game to the max."
That is simply not true, already a handful of players are consistently near the top of the rankings. Many of them are ex-BW or ex-WC3. Sure it isn't a pure APM battle, but the top pros are still at 200+ and the pros are the ones playing hundreds of games who can counter anything and stay in any game regardless of APM.
"Games will probably still consist of two balls 1a-ing into each other."
Simply not true, with more UI assists, harass and timing pushes into the mid game is more important as managing several attacks and defends while keeping economy up becomes possible. SC2 is well balanced where I have seen battles of attrition, but also base races, base swaps, rush wins,mass single unit wins, mixed army wins, winning through forcing the opponent to mine out, proxy wins... basically all of the game types from SC one happen at the higher levels in SC2. You say probably like you have never looked up high level SC2 battles on youtube or seen the save games here.
"There still won't be LAN. Everything will still be played on Bnet 2.0"
I'm guessing this is so that people won't steal Blizzard games. Nintendo had a huge piracy problem with the DS in Korea (1.4 million illegal DS flash karts in a country where 2 million DS sold). Blizzard knows that this is a potential problem for them and want to let gamers know that no CD key = no multi-player. Although I'm sure Blizzard vs. KeSPA played a role in this too. I wish there was LAN but I could imagine people abusing it (I know people who set up whole LANs with one BW CD key for example).
Im guessing you are also aware that top-level play is simply impossible without LAN latency?
In a game (BW) where timing windows and decision making are in a matter of less than a second, B.net-level ping will have too big of an effect on gameplay (50ms ping difference will be huge)..
That Blizzard does not support LAN shows how much they care to support high level gameplay. And as a fan, i am utterly disappointed.
On September 29 2010 16:14 Slago wrote: Why do people compare SC2 to sports soooooo much, I know its quite off topic, but im pretty much a closet nerd, ive played BW for 10 years love the pro scene and all, but I'm an Athlete, i was a jock in school, thats all im gonna say bout that so people dont think im trying to brag. Anyway, it almost angers me that people will compare starcraft to things like hockey and basketball, I love games and sports, but there separate, and it's not too say one is better than the other, it's excactly the opposite, it makes me so angry that people need to feel like physical things are superior to mental things, I.E. chess to lacrosse, I love lacrosse IMO best sport on earth (than again i am canadian ), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
This is wildly off topic but it's just something that really bothers me and needed to get if off my chest, and no one reads the blogs
ya thats like definitely an opinion.
coming from another athlete, I totally disagree with you.
30 years from now, people will play SC7. SC1-5 will die out almost completely.
This is E-sports, where computational engines and virtual reality matter. You can't relate SC1 to chess, because chess and any other non-E-sports don't rely on graphics enhancement, etc.
The dying process is progressive. SC1 will have the same fate as Pacman / Donkey Kong / Mario.
The point is: accept SC1 will eventually die out and SC2+ will take over. Opposing this thought is delusional.
This is going to be one big quote train of one-liners as I'm now tired of recycling the same explanations to a new person stating the same fundamentally wrong points:
Turtlebay wrote: three months after Brood Wars came out, the scene was nothing like the SC2 scene is today.
Not comparable. BW completed SC and SC2 isn't complete yet. Parent company money exists in the latter, not in the former.
Drakan wrote: Because The prize pool will obviously make flash & jaedong to play SC2... and they will be freaking good at it, so they will substitute BW for SC2, or else it would be retarded... why wouldn't play a game that he can learn so fast and be able to win bigger prizes in the future
Even if a single player took down every single tournament worldwide, its not as much as their salaries+promotions in BW. There's no reason to believe that future sponsors are suddenly going to be putting tons of money into it like the parent companies have. PARENT COMPANY MONEY.
Drakan wrote: Hey if every single basketball star, moved to a NEW GAME
Going to cut you off right there. If you believe that there's even a chance that a 100% conversion of professionals of any given anything to another medium is plausible in the real world, you must not associate with people at all.
SichuanPanda wrote: I don't see why a game as complex and profoundly popular as BW cannot become a true sport and is played decades from now despite the graphics purely because of the skill required to play the game and the quality of the matches
You can't understand why if a hypothetical game (you're referring to SC2 as "as complex as BW"... lol I'm assuming you mean an imaginary game that doesn't exist right now) that is easy and has low quality matches that people won't want to watch for an extended period of time won't succeed as an eSport... a spectator-based... you know what? Nevermind.
Turtlebay wrote: Anything that lowers APM lowers the skill ceiling? That seems like a narrow definition of skill.
You keep saying "APM" instead of "Multi-tasking Ability". Less to do with less necessary management does in fact require a lot less skill thus lowering the ceiling.
Turtlebay wrote: That is simply not true, already a handful of players are consistently near the top of the rankings.
Every time new players who are either old progamers too old to be top players anymore, or foreign pros who never had a chance to even see a finals at a major tournament enters the SC2 world, they're on top within literally DAYS.
Turtlebay wrote: Simply not true, with more UI assists, harass and timing pushes into the mid game is more important as managing several attacks and defends while keeping economy up becomes possible.
A new timing push in a previously-unknown window, a cheesy-type style of play, and completely overwhelming an opponent so they can't even leave their base indicates an incomplete and imbalanced game. What you described up there does happen, but on a very low and inferior level (yes of course I watched high-level SC2 matches because I'm looking to see if it really can morph at some point).
Turtlebay wrote: I'm guessing this is so that people won't steal Blizzard games.
Dumbest thing I've seen anyone try to pass off as "reason" in a long time. Go learn about the developing digital world even just a little bit and you'll change this.
Crt wrote: You can't relate SC1 to chess, because chess and any other non-E-sports don't rely on graphics enhancement, etc.
Yes you can, and yeah they do. HD broadcasting has increased worldwide interest in so many things because you can see what the heck is going on. Go ahead and show me how the numbers of spectators of anything broadcast that hasn't increased as technology grew. BW would've died out when 3-D graphics became possible if you were correct. Opinions like this are only possible in people who have no idea how things work in the world (no specific category as you must be equally retarded in all to think this kind of logic is in any way, shape, or form "correct").
On October 01 2010 13:47 ffreakk wrote: Im guessing you are also aware that top-level play is simply impossible without LAN latency?
In a game (BW) where timing windows and decision making are in a matter of less than a second, B.net-level ping will have too big of an effect on gameplay (50ms ping difference will be huge)..
That Blizzard does not support LAN shows how much they care to support high level gameplay. And as a fan, i am utterly disappointed.
Yep, it's silly to watch people argue about how much blizz cares about esports when sc2 and WoW don't even have lan modes that give them lan ping.
And any true gamer knows how important latency is when you strive for perfection.
On October 01 2010 16:03 Crt wrote: This is E-sports, where computational engines and virtual reality matter. You can't relate SC1 to chess, because chess and any other non-E-sports don't rely on graphics enhancement, etc.
I believe you're erroneously equating e-sports with the gaming industry. They aren't synonymous.
On October 01 2010 13:47 ffreakk wrote: Im guessing you are also aware that top-level play is simply impossible without LAN latency?
In a game (BW) where timing windows and decision making are in a matter of less than a second, B.net-level ping will have too big of an effect on gameplay (50ms ping difference will be huge)..
That Blizzard does not support LAN shows how much they care to support high level gameplay. And as a fan, i am utterly disappointed.
Yep, it's silly to watch people argue about how much blizz cares about esports when sc2 and WoW don't even have lan modes that give them lan ping.
And any true gamer knows how important latency is when you strive for perfection.
Thanks for pointing out the primary reason I haven't bought SC2 since beta ended.
Also no chat channels(although they announced this to come at least)...
On October 01 2010 11:56 oYsteR wrote: Broodwar is an 'esport': it is enjoyed by people who have never played BW. SC2 is a nice, it is enjoyed only by those who play/are in the know.
Broodwar in Korea is an incredibly fortuitous set of circumstances arising in South Korea and South Korea alone; I don't believe that the success of BW in Korea can be replicated around the world. SC2 is too pretty (in reality: unintelligible to uninitiated viewers therefore of no worth to 'oi polloi') and obviously, and unsurprisingly, unbalanced in comparison to BW.
The problem with E-sports in Western society is that no game has overcome the 'nerd factor', has not arrived at the correct time as BW did in Korea; does not have the same set of unchanging rules as a physical support such as soccer has; i.e. the players are in some way subject to the developers which greatly weakens the supposed strength of the players (an example of this malleability in esports is the nature of debates about whether flash is as good as boxer etc, although this is certainly comparable to soccer). However, e-sports have too many flaws and too much prejudice (in most countries, i can't claim to know about all) to succeed. I don't know. Does anyone think that future SC2 tournaments will draw 1m+ viewers? Is that too narrow a paramater for success for e-sports?
Social stigma is relatively small considering there are more and more console gamers and a relatively big casual gamer base. News outlets are the only ones who continue to push this social stigma if you will. Anyone who can think for themselves would be smart enough to take everything they say with a grain of salt.
As for the developers, Blizzard hasn't changed anything in years (in terms of Brood War). The only reason you could say we're at the hands of the developers so to speak is because Blizzard is trying to get into the E-Sport mix and shutdown KeSPA, which unfortunately for them won't work as well as they originally thought. As for the Boxer versus Flash debate... that's ridiculous, there is no argument because they're from totally different eras. It is unrealistic to do so with the progression of the game. Players like Flash and JD are proof that the game is still evolving and changing just like the maps. That brings us back to the notion that the developer has control. No, they don't. Once the game is packaged and shipped, the game is in the hands of the active community once all the dust settles. We take active and reactive control of the game. The maps and add-ons at our disposal are better than ever. The Developer, for example Blizzard, takes passive control. They will monitor and patch the game as they see fit. The community tells the developer what needs to be done and if they don't do it. Well, we either fix it ourselves or move on to greener pastures.
E-Sports as a sport is flawed. Countries like Germany and China are leading the way in terms of E-Sports, but they still have a long way to go. Last time I checked there were one million players online b.net 2.0. SC2 in its current state would never break that number in a country in terms of viewers. The only markets I can see that happening in are China and possibly Korea, but even that is unlikely due to Blizzard's marketing strategy. China got the shaft big time.
I agree with Diminotoor post, I dont know why some people come to this forum and say that multi-tasking is not important in the skill-ceiling, seriusly those guys had never played a RTS before?, It has become an argument between some people who doesnt even rationalize about marketing, customers, culture enviroment and RTS "gameplay" and people who has the experience and knowledge to give some facts. These two groups are never going to agree because one is posting about wishes and hopes and the other is posting about facts. This debate is going extremely dull, seriously, it is not going to end, nothing can be say to this newcomers and make them think that right now SC2 cant replace BW as an e-sport because of many factors already stated here and in many other threads.
(Please refer to page 3 for the actual image "E-Sport is filling the stadiums with thousands of fans"). I dont know about you, but those numbers looks pretty awesome to me, and thats just a little over a month ago.
And this crap about "it just doesn't look good enough" is purely your personal opinion as a (probably casual) gamer. When you play games at higher level (esp 200+ APMs like pros), ur Graphics settings is set to lowest and you really dont have time to admire the little sparkles of the mineral patches.
On October 02 2010 01:12 Velr wrote: To break thru in the west. SC/BW is just to old/ugly.
I love watching SC/BW... but it's like watching some 70ies football game... GREAT game, but the quality kinda ruins it.
Sorry but you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. To break through outside of Korea, its not BW that needs changing. Its E-Sports scene in general. If you exclude the Korean scene, pretty much all of E-Sports is one big as-of-right-now-hopeless unorganized clump. If SC:BW is to have a comeback, the E-Sports scene must be more established and "official". Graphics are certainly not the problem here (at least, not to an educated person).
On October 02 2010 01:12 Velr wrote: To break thru in the west. SC/BW is just to old/ugly.
I love watching SC/BW... but it's like watching some 70ies football game... GREAT game, but the quality kinda ruins it.
Sorry but you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. To break through outside of Korea, its not BW that needs changing. Its E-Sports scene in general. If you exclude the Korean scene, pretty much all of E-Sports is one big as-of-right-now-hopeless unorganized clump. If SC:BW is to have a comeback, the E-Sports scene must be more established and "official". Graphics are certainly not the problem here (at least, not to an educated person).
What's to stop other games from taking that role? BW isn't the only game that can benefit from a more established E-Sports.
On October 02 2010 01:12 Velr wrote: To break thru in the west. SC/BW is just to old/ugly.
I love watching SC/BW... but it's like watching some 70ies football game... GREAT game, but the quality kinda ruins it.
Sorry but you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. To break through outside of Korea, its not BW that needs changing. Its E-Sports scene in general. If you exclude the Korean scene, pretty much all of E-Sports is one big as-of-right-now-hopeless unorganized clump. If SC:BW is to have a comeback, the E-Sports scene must be more established and "official". Graphics are certainly not the problem here (at least, not to an educated person).
Don't bother to reply to those kind of comments Diminotoor, westerners always suppose that people of the east would think and do like them even if they know that is impossible. I have 3 European friends who love RTS and when I asked them what is the most important aspect of a RTS game they said "graphics" lol (and I owned them hard in every RTS).
The west pretty much has an anti-gaming culture, no esport could grow in the west. There is not a need to "break through" the west at all. They will never accept a video game as a sport.
The west pretty much has an anti-gaming culture, no esport could grow in the west. There is not a need to "break through" the west at all. They will never accept a video game as a sport.
[...]
I believe this is a fine point. If people who play games (gamers) are classified as "nerds" and looked down on by the majority. How is a sport that base on those very games s'posed to "breakthrough"? Amateurs wont have motivations to train up to be professionals if instead of being able to boast about their awesome gaming skills, its hide-it-or-be-laughed-at.
E-sport can and (hopefully) will grow in the East, what they need is to focus on truly good games, with balance and mechanics being the key instead of shiny pixels.
The west pretty much has an anti-gaming culture, no esport could grow in the west. There is not a need to "break through" the west at all. They will never accept a video game as a sport.
Hate to say it, but this is correct. Sure, Esports might expand a bit in the West, but it will never trigger like it did in Korea. There's a whole Western mindset hanging over the sport, keeping it from breaking out. I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.
On September 30 2010 00:28 NukeTheBunnys wrote: First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
BW never had a scene outside of korea that was professional in the sense of korean e-sports because THE FREAKING WESTERN CITIZENS DON'T CARE FOR RTS. we are more obsessed wiht WoW and counterstrike, halo and other garbage games before BW. ppl would rather invest in FREAKING GUITAR HERO before they invest in a RTS game. SC2 is building off the hype of how great a game BW was, but the fact of the matter remains, BW is still a much better game. why try to kill the more mature scene that keeps interest alive in the starcraft universe just because you think BW has outdated graphics? gameplay wise, it is the best in the fucking world.
i hate all these new people. all they do is harp on how good the graphics are for new games. but when i play them, they have complete garbage gameplay but sick graphics. i think i speak for most ppl on these forums, gameplay is much more important than graphics.
i hate this obsession with aesthetics in games. if you want to look at beautiful stuff, go to a goddamn museum.
On October 01 2010 13:47 ffreakk wrote: Im guessing you are also aware that top-level play is simply impossible without LAN latency?
In a game (BW) where timing windows and decision making are in a matter of less than a second, B.net-level ping will have too big of an effect on gameplay (50ms ping difference will be huge)..
That Blizzard does not support LAN shows how much they care to support high level gameplay. And as a fan, i am utterly disappointed.
Yep, it's silly to watch people argue about how much blizz cares about esports when sc2 and WoW don't even have lan modes that give them lan ping.
And any true gamer knows how important latency is when you strive for perfection.
Thanks for pointing out the primary reason I haven't bought SC2 since beta ended.
Also no chat channels(although they announced this to come at least)...
you forgot to mention the fact that there is no cross-realm play on one account. they want to keep us segregated in each part of the world, in order to improve e-sports! yeah right. im boycotting them for no cross realm play, no lan and their attempts to crush the BW scene.
unless they change their stance on all of those, i will continue to boycott blizzard products, including diablo 3 which i would love to play.
On October 02 2010 00:47 Velr wrote: For E-Sports to get big it first needs a game that draws in huge crowds.
SC/BW will not do this anymore, it just doesn't look good enough.
SC2 has a chance.
Once a game is really big, it could probably stay... But no game is that big yet.
you are coming from the wrong point of view. the only way a game stays is the longevity of the game itself. BW was big just because all the other RTS games came no where near it when it came to gameplay. up until sc2 came out, everyone was still involved in the BW scene. i'm sure that Sc2 brought it alot of new people due to the fact that it is a new game, but these are the same people that will hop on the next bandwagon for the next new game with better graphics. they are the wrong people you want to build a base out of in e-sports since all they want is something new and pretty aesthetically.
The west pretty much has an anti-gaming culture, no esport could grow in the west. There is not a need to "break through" the west at all. They will never accept a video game as a sport.
[...]
I believe this is a fine point. If people who play games (gamers) are classified as "nerds" and looked down on by the majority. How is a sport that base on those very games s'posed to "breakthrough"? Amateurs wont have motivations to train up to be professionals if instead of being able to boast about their awesome gaming skills, its hide-it-or-be-laughed-at.
E-sport can and (hopefully) will grow in the East, what they need is to focus on truly good games, with balance and mechanics being the key instead of shiny pixels.
well said man. i agree 100%. the ppl who focus on shiny pixels will just jump on to the next game when it comes out. even if lets say sc2 gets good gameplay wise through patches (THAT IS A BIG IF), once another game comes out, they will be bouncing ship asap. what a great base you are building e-sports on, (well, blizzard isn't building esports neway, they just want sc:Bw dead for more sales of sc2 and future expansions).
On October 01 2010 01:53 PetitCrabe wrote: are people so insecure they need to bash a game that just came out 3 frigging months ago? I've been following BW pro scene for 2-3 years now and i find it awesome even though i have never played BW except for turret defense... now i play SC2 and follow its scene too and i do see that the SC2 pros are not comparable to the pros of SC1 but they are hell lot better than the pros of SCBW 3 months after it was released... let the pros find good strats for SC2, wait for 2 expansions and at least 5-10 balance patch before saying SC2 sucks...
So you're saying SC2 sucks but it doesn't suck because it won't suck in a few years? Well, tell me when it stops sucking. Until then, I'll stick with nonsucky BW.
No... where did i say SC2 sucks? i said the pros of SC2 are not at the same lvl as SC1 cause they have less options cause the strats havent all been uncovered yet....
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
Edit: Added more.
I seriously have tears in my eyes even the 'ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.' pic
Basketball or any other sports are very easy to learn but it is the skill ceiling that is high. BW is hard to learn and ceiling skill maybe higher due to importance of reaction speed. SC2 is better than BW in terms of introducing the game to new players. People who have commented on SC2 ceiling, well they don't know that how high the ceiling is. High level players are still winning tournaments and seen some great micros. Is it pretty look at? Yes.
Now, is it pretty to look at as a spectator sport? No. Because it 'feels' easy. This is the problem is the learning curve. SC2 has the feeling (could be an illusion, don't know) that with a decent chunk time you could get better. With SC1, you reach a point where you go, even you think to yourself, Am I really getting better? (much like basketball or other sports). Then you look at the person next to you and realise they are better and it's possible. That's what makes a sport, a sport, looking at the very peak of current human ability, doing the impossible. So the question lies will SC2 ever reach that level? Will it makes someone say, WOW that's seems 'impossible' to do and they are doing it.
Only time will tell (not betting my one dollar on it though).
Actually, I've felt this exact feeling when I watched Cool play NEXLiveForever. I watched cool play, and I immediately knew that if I were to ever play like that, i'd have to be able to fly and punch through concrete walls. Well, I guess not to that extent, but it would be pretty god damn hard. It's almost the same as when I watched savior tank through his first MSL. So maybe, ultimately, at the end of the day, the only thing that matters here, is to let time do its thing.
On October 01 2010 18:25 robertdinh wrote:Yep, it's silly to watch people argue about how much blizz cares about esports when sc2 and WoW don't even have lan modes that give them lan ping.
And any true gamer knows how important latency is when you strive for perfection.
The only time SC2 lags is when somebody in the game is lagging. I wonder if anyone has done an IP traffic analysis to see is SC2 sends all of the packets straight to Battle.net which hosts the game or sets up an ad-hoc network once the game starts.
Piracy plays a huge role here. Battle.net is much harder to crack than any of the online systems with dedicated servers and LAN support. So far people have made cracks for the game, but it is harder to find a good game on the fake Battle.net servers because almost nobody is on there. So the message I think Blizzard intends to send with requiring Battle.net is that multi-player requires a legit CD key.
Of Course it would be a different story if Blizzard had separated E-Sports from the casual gamer while designing SC2. A button to remove stuff like auto mining and mbs for example. If SC2 was completely designed to be better than SC1 as an Esport, I think everyone would be behind it 100%. But Blizzard's idea of catering to lazy scrubs and progammers is absurd and naive. You can't to do both. If the game is easier then it loses merit and entertainment value at the Pro level.
wow man OP just nailed this on the head. something that I have in my head but can't put it down on paper as clearly and logically.
people trying to make starcraft 2 the same level of awesomeness as brood war and e-sports are just forcing it. It won't work, it does not have the comparable balance of races or exciting battles to watch. The people trying to set up starcraft 2 as a successor or mimic the esports industry in korea are just wasting their time.
i just think computer is not as accessible as it could for esport to be real.
Like say soccer, all you need is a freakin ball and you can play it see it and know wtf is going on.
Then here we have starcraft, which you'll need: computer internet 1 day if not days to understand wtf is going on
Frankly I think balls are more accessible than computer/internet
so the audience for starcraft can never be as huge.
Korea however, where computer IS accessible, and soon china hopefully, will be the way to go.
However, I do not think one game will persist. BW will have to die at some point, I'm afraid. There are some "timeless" qualities of a real sport, where the limits are set by the much more expansive real world physics, rather than the limits constraint by some arbitary code... I don't think BW has that real "timeless" qualities to it. Maybe it has a huge longevity which we have witnessed, but def. not timeless.
What I am hoping for though, is for cpu to be a gaming medium. Like how mma killed boxing, but u still see people fighting so there's little difference. So as long as we can go this way, which I don't doubt at all (computer only getting more popular). It'll be a good future.
I actually it may be similar to the poker craze that's in America right now.
While poker has been around forever, it's only been the last few years that we've have national broadcasts of poker tournaments and things like that. A lot of people enjoy watching awesome poker matches. For a more nerdy audience, there's Magic The Gathering, which has a huuuuge worldwide following with very high money prizes in a lot of countries.
SC2 and eSports could easily do the same thing (though probably not on TV).
For people saying that BW going away would make it a "fad," I would disagree. I would simply say that eSports are going to be far more dynamic and changing that normal sports. It's part of the "e" in esports. Everything online and electronic moves faster and quicker. If brood war dies, it does not mean esports will never be taken seriously. Simply that it will change faster.
Baseball shouldn't change now, neither should soccer or whatsoever. Those already had their changes.
Want to know how soccer started out? Played by the hundreds on kilometer long fields. It got changed to 100/110m by 50/65m and played by 22 players. Quite a change no?
E-Sports are pretty damn new. Ofcourse they're going to be changes, and they're going to be needed for E-Sports to progress.
On September 30 2010 00:28 NukeTheBunnys wrote: First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
BW never had a scene outside of korea that was professional in the sense of korean e-sports because THE FREAKING WESTERN CITIZENS DON'T CARE FOR RTS. we are more obsessed wiht WoW and counterstrike, halo and other garbage games before BW. ppl would rather invest in FREAKING GUITAR HERO before they invest in a RTS game. SC2 is building off the hype of how great a game BW was, but the fact of the matter remains, BW is still a much better game. why try to kill the more mature scene that keeps interest alive in the starcraft universe just because you think BW has outdated graphics? gameplay wise, it is the best in the fucking world.
i hate all these new people. all they do is harp on how good the graphics are for new games. but when i play them, they have complete garbage gameplay but sick graphics. i think i speak for most ppl on these forums, gameplay is much more important than graphics.
i hate this obsession with aesthetics in games. if you want to look at beautiful stuff, go to a goddamn museum.
SC2's gameplay is in the complete opposite direction of bad.
On September 30 2010 00:28 NukeTheBunnys wrote: First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
BW never had a scene outside of korea that was professional in the sense of korean e-sports because THE FREAKING WESTERN CITIZENS DON'T CARE FOR RTS. we are more obsessed wiht WoW and counterstrike, halo and other garbage games before BW. ppl would rather invest in FREAKING GUITAR HERO before they invest in a RTS game. SC2 is building off the hype of how great a game BW was, but the fact of the matter remains, BW is still a much better game. why try to kill the more mature scene that keeps interest alive in the starcraft universe just because you think BW has outdated graphics? gameplay wise, it is the best in the fucking world.
i hate all these new people. all they do is harp on how good the graphics are for new games. but when i play them, they have complete garbage gameplay but sick graphics. i think i speak for most ppl on these forums, gameplay is much more important than graphics.
i hate this obsession with aesthetics in games. if you want to look at beautiful stuff, go to a goddamn museum.
SC2's gameplay is in the complete opposite direction of bad.
You are actually not arguing with what he said. He said BW is the best game gameplay wise. He says SC2 has good graphics and and builds off it's hype. While not "in the direction of bad", it's not AS good from his subjective viewpoint.
Chess is not a sport. Whether it is recognized by the Olympic Committee or whatever is beside the point. It simply doesn't meet the definition. Many sports are games and many games are sports but they are not the same thing.
That being said, there is much more of a physical challenge involved in Starcraft than there is in chess. But in my opinion the existence of the meta-game or whatever you want to call it disqualifies it from being considered a sport. I find the term e-sport to be sort of masturbatory but at the same time it is useful as a description and a good way to brand.
For the growth of E-sports, one thing that you never want is a fragmented community. Any sport, from the perspective of longterm viability, boils down to a game of coordination. The more people who play the game at a competitive level, the better.
On September 30 2010 00:28 NukeTheBunnys wrote: First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
BW never had a scene outside of korea that was professional in the sense of korean e-sports because THE FREAKING WESTERN CITIZENS DON'T CARE FOR RTS. we are more obsessed wiht WoW and counterstrike, halo and other garbage games before BW. ppl would rather invest in FREAKING GUITAR HERO before they invest in a RTS game. SC2 is building off the hype of how great a game BW was, but the fact of the matter remains, BW is still a much better game. why try to kill the more mature scene that keeps interest alive in the starcraft universe just because you think BW has outdated graphics? gameplay wise, it is the best in the fucking world.
i hate all these new people. all they do is harp on how good the graphics are for new games. but when i play them, they have complete garbage gameplay but sick graphics. i think i speak for most ppl on these forums, gameplay is much more important than graphics.
i hate this obsession with aesthetics in games. if you want to look at beautiful stuff, go to a goddamn museum.
Yeah! Screw the new people! That'll surely help esports grow and become mainstream one day!
The sequel was totally awful, look how many new players are interested in Starcraft and esports. It's just terrible what is happening really.
On October 18 2010 13:06 Gummy wrote: For the growth of E-sports, one thing that you never want is a fragmented community. Any sport, from the perspective of longterm viability, boils down to a game of coordination. The more people who play the game at a competitive level, the better.
SC2 has brought a metric ton of new people. Fragmented or not, the community is much larger than it previously was, and now Western countries are actually interested in it. So I don't really see how that's a good point.
On October 01 2010 18:25 robertdinh wrote:Yep, it's silly to watch people argue about how much blizz cares about esports when sc2 and WoW don't even have lan modes that give them lan ping.
And any true gamer knows how important latency is when you strive for perfection.
The only time SC2 lags is when somebody in the game is lagging. I wonder if anyone has done an IP traffic analysis to see is SC2 sends all of the packets straight to Battle.net which hosts the game or sets up an ad-hoc network once the game starts.
Piracy plays a huge role here. Battle.net is much harder to crack than any of the online systems with dedicated servers and LAN support. So far people have made cracks for the game, but it is harder to find a good game on the fake Battle.net servers because almost nobody is on there. So the message I think Blizzard intends to send with requiring Battle.net is that multi-player requires a legit CD key.
To add on to this, I think China has its fair share of blame for that. In China since its so secluded from rest of the world due to lag issues and internet censorship they actually have all online games pirated over their and use something similar to Hamachi (but with much larger player support) where they can play offline and never actually have to buy the game. I know the Chinese BW players played like that because they had to. The thing is the company that users that LAN interface is profiting off of it by charging players a very small fee. I remember there was a great article someone wrote about it on here once.
But basically that was Blizzards intention with cutting out LAN support. To prevent the Chinese and others from running third party servers and profiting off their game by abusing LAN support. Although if there are cracks that force LAN support which I imagine there must/will be then their plan backfires anyway and we get fucked for it.
No LAN support really does blow, and I think in the long run it fails as an anti-piracy measure because skilled coders will crack the game and force LAN support and get cracked servers up which might gain them some sales short term but will really fuck the players later on.
It came down to money, and even if its just another 50,000 copies of the game sold that would still be a huge amount of revenue that otherwise wouldn't be possible.
But maybe I am just giving Kotick too much credit. The guy is a shithead.
On September 30 2010 00:28 NukeTheBunnys wrote: First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
BW never had a scene outside of korea that was professional in the sense of korean e-sports because THE FREAKING WESTERN CITIZENS DON'T CARE FOR RTS. we are more obsessed wiht WoW and counterstrike, halo and other garbage games before BW. ppl would rather invest in FREAKING GUITAR HERO before they invest in a RTS game. SC2 is building off the hype of how great a game BW was, but the fact of the matter remains, BW is still a much better game. why try to kill the more mature scene that keeps interest alive in the starcraft universe just because you think BW has outdated graphics? gameplay wise, it is the best in the fucking world.
i hate all these new people. all they do is harp on how good the graphics are for new games. but when i play them, they have complete garbage gameplay but sick graphics. i think i speak for most ppl on these forums, gameplay is much more important than graphics.
i hate this obsession with aesthetics in games. if you want to look at beautiful stuff, go to a goddamn museum.
SC2's gameplay is in the complete opposite direction of bad.
I disagree to an extent. I understand that the game is new and its pretty fun, but I just can't see the cookie cutter solid builds coming out like they did in BW. There is such a dynamic nature in SC2 which I blame on two aspects, the first being a system of hard counters, the second being forced macro mechanics. A solid macro foundation in BW is what usually made a players very consistent. Pusan would be a great example of that, the guy would flood Terran's with mass zealot/goon and win just because of how incredible his macro was. Imagine trying to go mass stalker/zealot in any single match up. They get ridiculously hard counter by so many things. It makes SC2 very decision/build/strategy based which isn't terrible it just makes it more inclined to be a rock/paper/scissors game.
Now when we look at macro mechanics I would prefer to focus on the match up of PvZ, namely warp gates vs larva injection. The dynamic is very very interesting in my opinion. A protoss does have other viable options besides a 4 gate however none are as strong for a few reasons. 4 gate gives a protoss player the initiative and forces a zerg to play on the defensive, what this means is that you CONTROL how he spends his larva. The zerg COULD get drone but they he risks getting over run, so you are forcing him to make units because of your constant pressure while you are more or less free to expand and get your macro going. The combination of being able to alter your unit composition on the fly with 4 gate makes it incredibly potent as an opening strategy where doing anything else is much less safe.
When we contrast 4gate with other early expansion builds you can see how much more efficient it is. 4 gate sets the game tempo and allows the Protoss to control the flow of the game which makes scouting less necessary. Now with a fast expansion build the Protoss has to CONSTANTLY scout and count drones and try to tell if the Zerg's larva injection is going towards unit production or economic development. The thing is that information becomes expired almost instantly, assuming the Zerg expo's he can switch direction with insane speed and apply pressure which puts a protoss in an overly adaptive situation where if you make one tiny mistake you are fucked. It is an EXTREMELY unforgiving way to play and not really worth the risk since you are not generally gaining an economic advantage, nor are you gaining an initiative. You let the Zerg take control. What actually fucks that match up imo is the fact that warp gates give way too much mobility to a protoss to be ignored, while larva injection allows way too much flexibility meaning if you don't abuse one your opponent will abuse the other and you lose.
I can't really ever see this dilemma truly being overcome, but the whole reason these macro mechanics were included was to give high level players something to truly excel in over "casual" players.
The way I look at it is like this. I could play Flash//Jaedong in BW 101 times and I sincerely doubt I could even luck out a single win, hell even IdrA when he was at his best I would have a hard time to even take a game from. However with the system of hard counters, I can't honestly see myself getting 100-0'd in SC2 by really any player barring bad luck and I am only a mid range diamond player.
On October 18 2010 18:26 Woosung wrote: The only reasonable game to compare SC:BW / SC2 with is CS1.6 / CS:Source.
And we all see how many people ended up playing CS:Source after the initial hype...
You have no idea how dumb this comparison is. Lets ignore the fact that you picked the least successful sequel in terms of fan retention. Why not pick something of the same genre?
These are just the Blizzard games. Not going to mention the C&C and RA games. These were all improvements.
But you know, lets instead use a failed sequel to make our point. In fact, you probably could have done better by using the UT99 --> UT3 card since that was an infinitely worse jump.
On September 30 2010 00:28 NukeTheBunnys wrote: First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
BW never had a scene outside of korea that was professional in the sense of korean e-sports because THE FREAKING WESTERN CITIZENS DON'T CARE FOR RTS. we are more obsessed wiht WoW and counterstrike, halo and other garbage games before BW. ppl would rather invest in FREAKING GUITAR HERO before they invest in a RTS game. SC2 is building off the hype of how great a game BW was, but the fact of the matter remains, BW is still a much better game. why try to kill the more mature scene that keeps interest alive in the starcraft universe just because you think BW has outdated graphics? gameplay wise, it is the best in the fucking world.
i hate all these new people. all they do is harp on how good the graphics are for new games. but when i play them, they have complete garbage gameplay but sick graphics. i think i speak for most ppl on these forums, gameplay is much more important than graphics.
i hate this obsession with aesthetics in games. if you want to look at beautiful stuff, go to a goddamn museum.
SC2's gameplay is in the complete opposite direction of bad.
I disagree to an extent. I understand that the game is new and its pretty fun, but I just can't see the cookie cutter solid builds coming out like they did in BW. There is such a dynamic nature in SC2 which I blame on two aspects, the first being a system of hard counters, the second being forced macro mechanics.
The way I look at it is like this. I could play Flash//Jaedong in BW 101 times and I sincerely doubt I could even luck out a single win, hell even IdrA when he was at his best I would have a hard time to even take a game from. However with the system of hard counters, I can't honestly see myself getting 100-0'd in SC2 by really any player barring bad luck and I am only a mid range diamond player.
I'll comment on these 2 points.
1) How do you have forced macro mechanics? As opposed to not being forced to doing it manually? The game is infinitely easier in terms of mechanics. However, you have to remember that in a competition, people exploit every single advantage. So when the mechanics are not the things that influence skill, you will see actual strategy take the forefront (rather than the mix of strat and mechanics in BW). Is this better? Who knows. But certainly you will see higher level of strategy just because thats where all the energy of the player will be allocated.
2) Hard counters? Kind of like defilers? I'm not really going to talk about this in detail as much to say that there was plenty of hard counters in BW. The dynamics of the game, however, cleaned them up and made them seem fluent.
Of course you can't take a game off Flash/Jaedong/Idra at his prime in BW. And in 10 years, if Idra and top players still play, you wouldn't take a game off them in SC2 either. I guarantee it. If you say yes, then you are implying that there is a skill ceiling in the game, which there isn't. Its still a real-time strategy.
The problem is, even if both SC2 and BW both survive and create a world wide eSports scene they will still die out in a short time compared to physical sports. BW already has problems with Windows 7, there's a good chance that the next windows OS will have even worse compatability, so even in the event that BW survives, in about 10 years or so there's likely not to be many decent PCs that can run it. In 10-15 years we may see a similar thing happening with SC2, and unless the software companies try to assure compatability for these games then they're not going to last as long as any real sport does, eventually we'll have to move on to SC3 or something else, even if it sucks compared.
tbh if we really want BW and SC2 to survive for a decent length of time we need a video game dedicated OS that will continue to have support for ALL desktop computer games with every update released. maybe like a version of linux that doesn't have such bad support for video games xD.
I disagree to an extent. I understand that the game is new and its pretty fun, but I just can't see the cookie cutter solid builds coming out like they did in BW. There is such a dynamic nature in SC2 which I blame on two aspects, the first being a system of hard counters, the second being forced macro mechanics. A solid macro foundation in BW is what usually made a players very consistent. Pusan would be a great example of that, the guy would flood Terran's with mass zealot/goon and win just because of how incredible his macro was. Imagine trying to go mass stalker/zealot in any single match up. They get ridiculously hard counter by so many things. It makes SC2 very decision/build/strategy based which isn't terrible it just makes it more inclined to be a rock/paper/scissors game.
I think your analysis is off. Protoss was the only race that could mass basic units like that, Z was heavily reliant on their lair units and T needed vessels (TvZ) or mech (TvP). This is because their basic units get, as you put it "ridiculously hard countered by so many things." And even P really had to get templar or air tech to survive lategame.
The SC2 equivalent is terran bio, which people whine about endlessly. Just like P, you mass basic units and can win with them, but it's normal to get tech unit support as the game goes on.
On October 18 2010 19:38 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Now when we look at macro mechanics I would prefer to focus on the match up of PvZ, namely warp gates vs larva injection. The dynamic is very very interesting in my opinion. A protoss does have other viable options besides a 4 gate however none are as strong for a few reasons. 4 gate gives a protoss player the initiative and forces a zerg to play on the defensive, what this means is that you CONTROL how he spends his larva. The zerg COULD get drone but they he risks getting over run, so you are forcing him to make units because of your constant pressure while you are more or less free to expand and get your macro going. The combination of being able to alter your unit composition on the fly with 4 gate makes it incredibly potent as an opening strategy where doing anything else is much less safe.
When we contrast 4gate with other early expansion builds you can see how much more efficient it is. 4 gate sets the game tempo and allows the Protoss to control the flow of the game which makes scouting less necessary. Now with a fast expansion build the Protoss has to CONSTANTLY scout and count drones and try to tell if the Zerg's larva injection is going towards unit production or economic development. The thing is that information becomes expired almost instantly, assuming the Zerg expo's he can switch direction with insane speed and apply pressure which puts a protoss in an overly adaptive situation where if you make one tiny mistake you are fucked. It is an EXTREMELY unforgiving way to play and not really worth the risk since you are not generally gaining an economic advantage, nor are you gaining an initiative. You let the Zerg take control. What actually fucks that match up imo is the fact that warp gates give way too much mobility to a protoss to be ignored, while larva injection allows way too much flexibility meaning if you don't abuse one your opponent will abuse the other and you lose.
If 4gate is the ultimate strategy, than how come FE or robo tech is so common in professional level PvZ? I guarantee it's not because the pros don't know how to 4gate. It's because it transitions terribly into the midgame as you have made a major investment that leaves no money for tech or expo. Therefore, it's really the Z who has control of the game if the push doesn't do severe damage. Your big argument seems to be that if you don't allin your opponent you have to scout them in case they're doing something sneaky. This is different from BW how?
I don't think you understand SC2 well enough to make an analysis.
None of the games on the left side of the column had a serious competitive scene. Of course, very few games ever have a serious competitive scene, and two of your list are pre-expansion-pack while the other two predate E-SPORTS.
Counterstrike is arguably the most competitive FPS, and it had a sequel. I guess you could also point to Quake III ---> Quake IV. Does anyone play Quake IV?
Why not pick something of the same genre?
Because Broodwar is the world's most competitive RTS by a very wide margin, and has been for ten years. If you don't look outside the RTS genre, you have nothing to compare it against. Red Alert? Right...
I disagree to an extent. I understand that the game is new and its pretty fun, but I just can't see the cookie cutter solid builds coming out like they did in BW. There is such a dynamic nature in SC2 which I blame on two aspects, the first being a system of hard counters, the second being forced macro mechanics. A solid macro foundation in BW is what usually made a players very consistent. Pusan would be a great example of that, the guy would flood Terran's with mass zealot/goon and win just because of how incredible his macro was. Imagine trying to go mass stalker/zealot in any single match up. They get ridiculously hard counter by so many things. It makes SC2 very decision/build/strategy based which isn't terrible it just makes it more inclined to be a rock/paper/scissors game.
I think your analysis is off. Protoss was the only race that could mass basic units like that, Z was heavily reliant on their lair units and T needed vessels (TvZ) or mech (TvP). This is because their basic units get, as you put it "ridiculously hard countered by so many things." And even P really had to get templar or air tech to survive lategame.
The SC2 equivalent is terran bio, which people whine about endlessly. Just like P, you mass basic units and can win with them, but it's normal to get tech unit support as the game goes on.
I was referring more so to a stylistic difference that it allowed although I might of gotten slightly off track. ling/hydra marine/med could effectively be massed as well but to further iterate my point I will use a PvP example. I was PvPing vs someone and massed zealot/stalker/HT and maxed out. I literally focused on expo/macro to 3base as fast as possible then A-moving. However immortal/colossus were just too much to handle even though I was literally 60 supply over on my opponent having a few colossus just such a ridiculous difference. When you look at PvZ as well think about ever trying to compete against a mass hydra Zerg and just pumping pure zealot/stalker or something. It just isn't feasible, you NEED colossus. While it may seem stupid to just mass a low tier unit the point is just to illustrate how certain units are way too cost effective against certain units.
On October 18 2010 19:38 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Now when we look at macro mechanics I would prefer to focus on the match up of PvZ, namely warp gates vs larva injection. The dynamic is very very interesting in my opinion. A protoss does have other viable options besides a 4 gate however none are as strong for a few reasons. 4 gate gives a protoss player the initiative and forces a zerg to play on the defensive, what this means is that you CONTROL how he spends his larva. The zerg COULD get drone but they he risks getting over run, so you are forcing him to make units because of your constant pressure while you are more or less free to expand and get your macro going. The combination of being able to alter your unit composition on the fly with 4 gate makes it incredibly potent as an opening strategy where doing anything else is much less safe.
When we contrast 4gate with other early expansion builds you can see how much more efficient it is. 4 gate sets the game tempo and allows the Protoss to control the flow of the game which makes scouting less necessary. Now with a fast expansion build the Protoss has to CONSTANTLY scout and count drones and try to tell if the Zerg's larva injection is going towards unit production or economic development. The thing is that information becomes expired almost instantly, assuming the Zerg expo's he can switch direction with insane speed and apply pressure which puts a protoss in an overly adaptive situation where if you make one tiny mistake you are fucked. It is an EXTREMELY unforgiving way to play and not really worth the risk since you are not generally gaining an economic advantage, nor are you gaining an initiative. You let the Zerg take control. What actually fucks that match up imo is the fact that warp gates give way too much mobility to a protoss to be ignored, while larva injection allows way too much flexibility meaning if you don't abuse one your opponent will abuse the other and you lose.
If 4gate is the ultimate strategy, than how come FE or robo tech is so common in professional level PvZ? I guarantee it's not because the pros don't know how to 4gate. It's because it transitions terribly into the midgame as you have made a major investment that leaves no money for tech or expo. Therefore, it's really the Z who has control of the game if the push doesn't do severe damage. Your big argument seems to be that if you don't allin your opponent you have to scout them in case they're doing something sneaky. This is different from BW how?
I don't think you understand SC2 well enough to make an analysis.[/QUOTE] My main argument was that it is stronger than it should be. I stated how alternative builds are viable but leave much more holes to be exploited and aren't generally worth the risk. If you go on the liquipedia page for PvZ FE builds it lists their weaknesses as 1. 3 base macro. and 2. Aggressive builds.
Scouting in Sc2 is much harder plus the information doesn't remain as reliable for as long because larva injection literally adds another 8 units to either your economy or your attacking force. That is the point I was making with the dynamic difference. A Zerg can choose to balance economy and army or it can go completely in one direction or the other in such a dramatic fashion which makes it incredibly effective against a Protoss who skimps on a cannon or makes one too many.
Larva respawns at the same rate as it did in BW just around every 30 seconds another 4-8 larva also enter the mix as well.
Chess is a far, FAR more complex game than broodwar is (well, for a human brain at least). If you say otherwise you just do not have a clue about what you are talking about. Same thing goes for real sport, its enormously more physically demanding than any video game. Thus, if esport fails to be on-par with the real sports/games, I can't see how you put so much value in it.
I casually follow the scene since 2001 (hell I even played at the same "pc bang" than elky, in Paris), but I would never compare bw with anything else than an other video game.
On October 19 2010 18:33 Burban wrote: Chess is a far, FAR more complex game than broodwar is (well, for a human brain at least). If you say otherwise you just do not have a clue about what you are talking about. Same thing goes for real sport, its enormously more physically demanding than any video game. Thus, if esport fails to be on-par with the real sports/games, I can't see how you put so much value in it.
I casually follow the scene since 2001 (hell I even played at the same "pc bang" than elky, in Paris), but I would never compare bw with anything else than an other video game.
On October 19 2010 18:33 Burban wrote: Chess is a far, FAR more complex game than broodwar is (well, for a human brain at least). If you say otherwise you just do not have a clue about what you are talking about. Same thing goes for real sport, its enormously more physically demanding than any video game. Thus, if esport fails to be on-par with the real sports/games, I can't see how you put so much value in it.
I casually follow the scene since 2001 (hell I even played at the same "pc bang" than elky, in Paris), but I would never compare bw with anything else than an other video game.
On September 29 2010 17:31 Diminotoor wrote: People who are saying stop comparing eSports to normal physical sports:
If you can't understand the similarities in terms of contracts, teams, professional teams, managers, media, drafts, mandatory daily practice to keep on top, etc, then there's no reason for you to respond. I hate having to explain things about myself (irl) to an online forum that basically could just say "I don't believe you" and there's nothing you can do about it because you simply don't care enough to push it farther with lolonlinechat.
I have been a real athlete my entire life. I started training in Tae-Kwon-Do Gukaewon method when I was 6 years old, studied Dragon Shaolin for 4 years, and then Wing Chun for the last 2 (until present day). I did professional competition for 11 years. I was crowned regionals champion 8 times, world champion 2 times, and I've fought before the Grand Master Yip Chun. I'm currently involved with film and trying to become an action star in USA, and I practice and work out every single day to keep myself up to snuff. Coming from someone with THIS MUCH of an athletic background (and this is only my martial arts aspect, I can go much much farther), I see similarities that can be drawn between the two. Whenever you go into a "professional"-ANYTHING, your life pretty much becomes that thing. Whether its a sport, esport, career path, life ambition, etc, the same elements exist for both.
Do I think that there are differences? Abso-freakin-lutely. Do I also think that similarities can be drawn to many like elements? Again, the answer is Abso-freakin-lutely. The main one being that a game can continue to evolve and grow over time. This is incredibly apparent in what we would call "normal sports" since the games have been around for so long. This is only just NOW starting to become apparent in eSport games. Go back 50 to 100 years in any sport existing on the planet. I guarantee you it wasn't played the same back then the way it is now. Is it RADICALLY different? No, you just apply the new rules or playing styles to achieve the same end (to win). The exact same thing exists for eSport gaming.
One world is physically demanding, time-demanding, and dominant world-wide. The other world is a new realm of mentally demanding, time-demanding, and not-so-dominant-yet world-wide. Our job as members of this community is to continue to support the scene, and help it to grow and evolve into something long-lasting. I want to see both Sports and E-Sports making it happen alongside each other. I don't see how adding career paths world-wide could really turn out to be so bad.
Ok, I dont think most people are saying LITERALLY that Sports and E-Sports shouldnt be compared. I think most people are saying that theres something in Sports that E-Sports is missing, namely the intense physical aspect.
You draw a contrast in that Sports is very physically demanding while E-Sports is very mentally demanding, but aren't Sports pretty mentally demanding too? Tell me, when you competed in Tae Kwon Do, werent you racking your brains within each match on what tactics you could use to take your opponent down? Both Sports and E-Sports are very mentally demanding. The difference is that with Sports, you gotta expend all that mental energy WHILE you push yourself physically (and please dont tell me moving your wrist and fingers is as physically taxing as playing a sport).
I bboy in my spare time. When Im just practicing casually, its easier to think of what to do next because im not exhausted physically and I can take my time. When Im battling, its much much harder to think of how to hit the upcoming beats because of all the physical energy Im expending at the same time. It is so much easier to plan ahead and think of what to do next while playing SC because you arent in the middle of a big fight with your opponent most of the time. And even then, its not like youre gasping for air with your whole body sore while youre doing it.
The OP is great. The part about Esports in Korea- and household names, I think... hits the nail on the head. THAT is how it became a cultural phenomenon.
Games like BW produce stars because of the ridiculous skill ceiling. BoxeR, in his prime, was light years ahead of the field. But by today's standards, was very 1 dimensional. OOV and Nada and Savior, Bisu and Flash... over the course of 10 years... are STILL able to rise above the crowd.
That IS an effect of the game. The game allows prodigies to be born because it had so much room for displaying special talent.
Outside of very small circles, there are no household CoD names, or CounterStike names, or Halo names... because the game is limited. People are better than others, and their is a fairly good range of skill... but its nothing compared to BroodWar.
I like the analogy to regular sports. Chess strategy has developed over 100 years, and I like a football analogy because- there is a constant dialogue of strategies that evolves. Certain formations, player packages (4 wide-recievers, 2 running backs, 1 running back) and on defense (nickles, dimes, 3-4 etc etc) keeps the strategies fluid and dynamic. THIS is interesting. Sometimes throwback strategies work, as things evolve... and generally good players/teams are born from a mix of studying old strategy and mixing in some new innovation.
SC2 longevity will be determined by how much it can mimic that fluid strategy/skill dynamic. Weather prodigies can emerge and dominate the scene for even a few months- with superior understanding/execution.
FPS will never have mass appeal for the opposite reason. No one can ever get that far ahead of the curve to dominate, and become iconic. The games are far too narrow to really "push" the human to have to train and become specialized.
Nobody would ever try to change the core gameplay of basketball or baseball but still, both have changed alot over the past 100 years. The clothes changed, the rules changed(increased player safety as an example), the equipment changed... If basketball was a game, certainly it would be called atleast "basketball 13" by now. All those popular sports were greatly polished over the course of their lifetime and they're still being polised even to this day.
Take soccer as an example, they're now trying to implant GPS chips into the balls so they know exactly when a goal is scored. If soccer was a software, you'd have to release an update and it would get a new version number.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood the OP but it seemed as if you claimed that all the popular sports of this planet have never undergone any major change.
As a spectator sport, BW is better.
[Citation needed]
I think if you want to compare e-sports to a "real" sport you should pick snooker. In europe, snooker gains popularity as we speak. Snooker is broadcasted daily and the live-events gain more and more genuine spectators despite the fact that 99% of the audience is terrible at it. I could go on and write pages about the comparison of both games but I'll take the tl;dr the conclusion.
The top e-sport players are kids, the rest of the world doesn't care. Also, many players are bad mannered(especially western culture players), have no class, don't dress nice, have no fancy haircuts, are made of only bones, have no communication skills... I'm sorry, it just doesn't appeal to the western world.
While I agree with some of OP's points to an extent, it really doesn't help the credibility of such a movement when you have a thread like this with blatantly fanboy (not to mention prophetic) remarks like "SC2 just doesn't have the potential of Brood War" or "SC2 will never be as big as Brood War". Really? SC2 is less than a year old. Are you really saying back in 1998 people were going "wow, this game is like, unfathomably deep, I can see this becoming a hugely popular esport with a massive competitive scene for 10+ years". If you can see the future as well as you're saying, please give me your contact information and we can work out a business partnership regarding lottery numbers.
OP's point falls short right from the beginning because it makes some highly flawed comparisons. The first comparison is to physical sports. OP makes the highly inaccurate claim that sports (or games, whatever term you want to use) have not changed over the years - this is blatantly false. For instance, here:
On September 29 2010 13:25 funnybananaman wrote: Starcraft isn't just like every other shitty video game, imagine if people came out with a "chess 2" with redesigned pieces and you could move 2 at once and could take back 5 moves per game so it was more open to the casual player. Thats a little bit closer to what were talking about here.
Do you think this following conversation took place in the 1400s? Some guy: You know what? let's make it so that the pawn can move two spaces in its opening move so we can have more dynamic openings, and add a new piece called the queen that can move an infinite number of spaces in every direction. Some other guy: wtf man making the game more open to casual players stop changing my game chess is perfect and we don't need a chess 2 or anything like that don't redesign the pieces man wtf u doing
Chess has undergone innumerable massive changes to the rules and pieces over the centuries, making a stupid blanket analogy like this just shows your lack of research.
Or here:
Is like saying oh yeah baseball had its hundred years now its run its course lets play baseball 2. Rubber ball to make it more accessible to new players so its easier to hit, oh yeah and lets move the home run in 50 yards so there's more action. like, wtf? does that make any sense? If you say "no, but thats totally different baseball is an iconic sport" then you have the wrong perspective about starcraft.
Yeah man, I can just imagine some fools saying this in the 1800s: oh yeah baseball's run its course let's play baseball 2. now you have to tag the runners while holding the ball to get them out instead of just throwing it at them oh yeah let's make the field a little smaller and bring the fences in closer so we can have more home run-play instead of infield-play.
Wow you're right, that's insane, imagine what baseball would be like today if they were crazy enough to implement those changes.
The second comparison is that of Brood War itself right now at this snapshot in time, to SC2 right now in this snapshot in time. You're comparing a 12-year old game to a less than 1 year old game and saying the new game isn't as good or 'real' as the older game because the new game doesn't have the household big names created from the 10+ year old competitive scene that the older game has. Wow, really? That's like saying it's a 5 year old's fault it doesn't know as much advanced quantum physics as a 50-year old physicist, so clearly it's not as intelligent.
The real comparison would be to compare Brood War now to SC2 in 2020, but again, you would need to be the Oracle to make that comparison (and again, if you are, please contact me we can work something out) which is why it's flagrantly stupid to make concrete assertions like "Brood War is the only real Esport". Competitive video games just like physical sports evolve over time and unless you're Nostradamus let's cut short the prophetic remarks about just how deep or competitive a game will ever be. OP makes a few decent points (namely about the comparatively tiny lifespan of competitive video games due to increasingly fast advancements in technology) but unfortunately what I mostly see here is a thread full of fanboys crying "CAASSSSUUUUAAALLLS!!! GRAPHIC WHOOOOREEESS!!", upset that their favorite toy now has a new model that is threatening to take a bigger share of the playground.
On September 29 2010 15:07 Sixer wrote: hopefully in 100 years bw will still be huge in korea, and everyone will go back to wearing spacesuits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8bAPfnMH5g
I saw this on the first page, and a part of me died. So sad to lose all of those memories. And i feel that with the fall of Jon747, the true death of SC:BW has begun.
EPT
), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
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