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Random pic to make the thread more friendly...
Im gonna start this post first by explaining what is Courage since theres a lot of new people on the forum so you can get a clue.
There are 2 ways in which you can get a progamer license.
1.- Freepass. All teams in proleague (Except ACE i presume), get 2-3 per season that grant the bearer progamer status, they can use this as they please. They tend to use this with "Practice Partners" or B- Teamers (not 100% sure on this) that cant get trough Courage.
2.- .Courage A tournament held monthly (iirc) in which every amateur can participate, usually theres around 500 +/- participating (again iirc) each participant getting put on a RO64 group with the winner getting a progamer license (ONLY THE WINNER).
Courage is important for 2 reasons, one the aforementioned license and two it helps the guys who dont win to get known and if lucky get picked by a team as stated in nº1. This happens more often than not because winning Courage IS HARD AS FUCK.
Now that we get that out the way, this is what im worried about is that the SC2 "scene" in Korea gets their gosu players from 3 parts:
1- Old School Pros who see it as a second chance, plus they dont have to keep compiting for rare CHANCE to get a spot on a proleague match. (See: GARIMTO, July, etc.). Also a lot will simply try for ACE ASAP to get an easier military service in fear of BW dying.
2. B-Teamers for pretty much the same reason as stated above only they fight for the CHANCE to get a CHANCE.
3. High Level BW Amateurs/Practice Partners. These are the guys that rock the korean clanleagues, and are the nest for A LOT of the most talented progamers (See Savior[gm], Anytime[gm] to name 2 from the top of my head)
The guy on the right was an active [gm] member and went to destroy the emperor dreams for a Golden Mouse, the guy on the left was picked out of A LADDER and went to defeat King K. Rool every single soul who step on his way.
Now with SC2 number 2 and 3, as i see it, will start to slowly but steadily start to fade away. It will first start with the high level amateurs, these guys are the one who always go to Courage in hope to get picked up or get known just to be a practice partner. With SC2 on the scene they will start to try new luck seeing how they can participate on waaay easier tournaments and get money instead of "the chance for a chance of a chance".
This will lead to Courage being easier and less massive, and the newly picked B-Teamers will not be has good or talented as the other guys. Now, the way i see the progamers pyramid this will in the long time (6 months +/-) to a steady decline in the quality of practise B Teamers get (LOTS tend to practise with amateur because they are still quite good and that way the can try build order secretely).
You add this with the facts that a small percentage of the older B-Teamers will start to quit to try luck on SC2 or, in fear of BW dying an not being able to keep up with their hyungs theyll just retire.
So in conclusion, (this became quite long) Courage is the BEST way measure the current and future state of BW. What i am worried is not the old guys trying SC2, is the NEW GUYS quitting on BW.
Without newcomers there is no competition, without competition there is no E-Sport.
+ Show Spoiler +Im pretty sure this hasn been brought up for discussion before but if it was im gonna kill myself T_T because i should be studying
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Nice writeup.
And yeah, even though most of us don't want to admit it, BW is dying, or at least, losing a big chunk of its players/fans.
I hardly even play sc2 anymore outside of custom games/4v4s with friends. It's just not as "awesome" as BW is.
'Tis sad for the bw guys.
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Interesting, of course it's best to strive for opportunity.
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While there are a huge amount playing SC2, I don't think the skill level of courage will go down for quite a while ( ~1 year?)... at least I hope it doesn't =\
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It is really hard to predict the quality of upcoming courage tournaments, SC2 is still too young to know if aspiring BW progamers will switch to try and win at SC2 tournaments (and the proscene is still way too young).
Only time will tell.
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On September 16 2010 12:12 ohN wrote:
Nice writeup.
And yeah, even though most of us don't want to admit it, BW is dying, or at least, losing a big chunk of its players/fans.
I hardly even play sc2 anymore outside of custom games/4v4s with friends. It's just not as "awesome" as BW is.
'Tis sad for the bw guys.
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example.
I am not in denial nor am I bitter when I say this, but I'd like some proof backing up this sort of statement (which people use quite frequently on this board) with regards to SK (we all know this is true in NA).
Also, to OP:
Currently, the situation is supply >> demand, I don't see a lighter load being detrimental to the courage leagues just yet.
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51424 Posts
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 16 2010 12:12 ohN wrote:
Nice writeup.
And yeah, even though most of us don't want to admit it, BW is dying, or at least, losing a big chunk of its players/fans.
I hardly even play sc2 anymore outside of custom games/4v4s with friends. It's just not as "awesome" as BW is.
'Tis sad for the bw guys.
I feel the same way too,except for the sc2 part since it still has a long way to go...2 expansions is a long way.
If BW should ever die it should die a natural and painless death.
Note: I said IF
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Some good points in your writeup. Less fresh blood also means that the currently dominating progamers will probably remain the best for a very long time, possibly until BW dies.
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I think you are overestimating the impact that SC2 has had; there is still plenty of interest in BW. What you are describing might happen eventually but it doesn't seem likely to happen in the short term.
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BW isn't dying just yet, still has high interest. I think the main reason for the low draft numbers this year compared to previous years is mainly because of the uncertainties BW is facing atm (and the scandals from the past year). With any luck (and assuming things are resolved with Blizz one way or the other) we should see draft numbers jump back up in the future.
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Until sc2 has all three expansions out, it can not hope to ever be a balanced game, and until that point- i feel that the pro bw players and the bw scene in general are not going to give it much clout. The expansions are what is going to ruin sc2. Because people will be waiting years, and with each expansion comes 2 more units for each team. By the time the other two expos have come out, that is 12 more sc units to account for.......and frankly that is just too long to wait.
the next 5-6 years of upcoming expansions for sc2 is not going to help create a strong game, where standard play can be found. Thus- there will be no real way to gauge skill, and because a new game is coming out every x or so years- pro games will have a tough time staying on top. As has been said before, there is more stability and thought into BW. I believe that most people and especially pro gamers understand this fact.
To those ends- sc2 cannot hope to start pulling in young korean hopefuls because by the time the first few turnies are over, a completely new game is going to be released. I should not even have to mention that the format of the turnies is also a detriment to competitive play, because it marginalizes the formation of teams, and as such there will not by a competitive backbone or enterprise to drive the games forward.
While i appreciate your analysis and good writeup, it occurs to me that some of the above points hold a lot of clout against your argument. While some new kids may go over to sc2, i will still think that it will be a minuscule number. Most gamers are smart enough to look bast their noses when looking to the future. While sc2 prize money looks tantalizing now, the thought of becoming licensed to play, with living quarters and a salary is so much more so.
edit: spelling
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On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example.
This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage.
Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice)
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On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice)
ya but if you hope to make it in korea, you are not going to be able to go to school full time and hope to be competitive in sc2 for long. Look at the boxer bio- he had to drop out for BW!!!!! at the time, and back then the competition was not nearly as fierce as sc2 is now. I mean the game already has a turny, and it's like a month old lol
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On September 16 2010 12:44 er.misrah wrote:
.... Because people will be waiting years, and with each expansion comes 2 more units for each team. By the time the other two expos have come out, that is 12 more sc units to account for.......and frankly that is just too long to wait.
the next 5-6 years of upcoming expansions for sc2 is not going to help create a strong game, where standard play can be found. Thus- there will be no real way to gauge skill, and because a new game is coming out every x or so years- pro games will have tough time staying on top. As has been said before, there is more stability and thought into BW. I believe that most people and especially pro gamers understand this fact.
To those ends- sc2 cannot hope to start pulling in young korean hopefuls because by the time the first few turnies are over, a completely new game is going to be released. I should not even have to mention that the format of the turnies is also a detriment to competitive play, because it marginalizes the formation of teams, and as such there will not by a competitive backbone or enterprise to drive the games forward.
You are seeing the situation Backwards, a game being balanced or fun or a good spectators sport its what helps it get established on the LONG RUN. BW wouldnt have succeded without balance but it was MONEY and the players that dedicated their time what gave it the time to be balanced.
There were lots of tournaments (MONEY) before the games was finally balanced (Patch 1.08). Hell, it took Anytime and then Bisu to completely eliminate the PvZ imba threads from Teamliquid and that was 7 years after BW was launched. But there were already 10 proteams.
The people im talking about want to be professionals, they want MONEY. As a side comment, Chess is absurdly balanced yet you dont see it on TV and most players (even pro players) starve for months before getting any cash.
Im not saying SC2 will succed purely because og bigger prizes. Im saying that players will prefer money over balance EVERYTIME. Do you see any GSL players not using Battlecruisers or Reapers just because they are broken? If it helps them win its ok with them. Its not their job to balance the game.
Of course no balance (or more importantly, NO APPARENT BALANCE) and no fun will result in spectators going away with any other game, this leads to less tourneys, then less money for the players and ultimately the player pool start to fades and the game and the ESPORT dies.
Or in a short way: No Good Game = no viewers = no tourneys = no money = no players = no game.
What im saying is that BW is ok in all the first points but its in danger of going on the penultimate stage.
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alright but if a game is not balanced it will lead to a stale competitive environment, leading to a stale spectating environment, leading to no e-sports. So i am confused, money may get them at first, but it's not going to keep them around if no one is willing to front the cash for the turny. the only reason some one is going to provide a cash prize, is so they can make more money from the advertising and view rating. If the game you are trying to get people to watch is stale, then were is this incentive?
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i think until sc2 starts paying salaries you're going to see a healthy amount of amateurs remain in BW; most people prefer security over high risk/ high reward scenarios
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nice writeup. I've always wondered about the whole courage process
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On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice)
If it doesn't have the casual players now and doesn't gain casual players as a fanbase in the future then it doesn't matter that Gretech and Blizzard tried to sell it as an eSport or that B-teamers are going there. Without fans to bring in advertisers SC2 will never take off like BW did and is continuing to do.
Frankly, unless SC2 catches on within the next three years or so in South Korea it will die at the professional level. Sure, it'll still continue and stuff but you won't see it televised or see giant prize pools like you're seeing now.
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On September 16 2010 13:12 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice) If it doesn't have the casual players now and doesn't gain casual players as a fanbase in the future then it doesn't matter that Gretech and Blizzard tried to sell it as an eSport or that B-teamers are going there. Without fans to bring in advertisers SC2 will never take off like BW did and is continuing to do. Frankly, unless SC2 catches on within the next three years or so in South Korea it will die at the professional level. Sure, it'll still continue and stuff but you won't see it televised or see giant prize pools like you're seeing now.
bw is a casual game.
lold.
sc2 seems to work on a large variety of computers and the interface is much more friendly. I can only see it doing much better in that regards to its predecessor
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