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On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene.
You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
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On September 16 2010 23:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene. You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
Touché.
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On September 16 2010 23:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene. You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
Nazgul, is gom paying players for each game ?
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Seriously this is definitely not something to worry about.
You holds a tournament and only give progamer license to the very winner, so what is the point of having like 1000 people participating in your tournament (I know it's not the case but you get my point) ? Only players that have like 33% chance of winning the tournament should participate, the rest (those who have 0% chance of winning) should go away, really.
So some people decide that Courage is too difficult and switch to the easier SC2 tournament ? Good for them, what is the point of having them in courage while they cannot win ? If you only need one progamer par Courage then you will always have that one, and his skill will always be high enough.
People can take both Courage and Sc2 tournaments, it's their choice and it's good for both games. BW will always get that very top guy from Courage and SC2 will benefit from those who cannot make it to the top.
I see no problem at all, don't be too conservative this matter does like 0.0001 damage to BW in general and BW won't die because of it.
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With SC2 on the scene they will start to try new luck seeing how they can participate on waaay easier tournaments and get money instead of "the chance for a chance of a chance".
But in its present state, SC2 can't support a lot of players.
Its not like several hundred people can leave BW and make a better living.
The top 16 might do better, but everyone else is likely to make more from a baseline proteam salary +free room/board.
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On September 17 2010 00:19 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +With SC2 on the scene they will start to try new luck seeing how they can participate on waaay easier tournaments and get money instead of "the chance for a chance of a chance". But in its present state, SC2 can't support a lot of players. Its not like several hundred people can leave BW and make a better living. The top 16 might do better, but everyone else is likely to make more from a baseline proteam salary +free room/board.
actually its easier the "get money" if youre a paid programer then to win gsl...
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Russian Federation327 Posts
It's not like broodwar suddenly became the game it's now.
Nah, I knew it. The problem is that we have SCBW already, we have things to compare against. It makes things quite different. Imagine that SC is a car. The first model was dumpy, unreliable and so on. But there ware no alternatives, it was fresh and new. And after the years of tuning you got a sport car. Now you again get scrub on the wheels with new hull. Do you change your sport car for this ?
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im planning on playing courage on december lol ill loose on the first round but whatever....
Courage of sc2?
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On September 16 2010 23:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene. You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
I'd say it has alot to do with who plays it.
Think we can establish that there is a pretty high correlation between BW skill and SC2 skill.
Problem is though that far to few of the top of the food chain made the switch (I mean why would they, got contracts) which for many people such as myself make current SC2 feel a bit "meh" in comparison to what it would have had every proteam embraced it from the start.
I'd say SC2 and BW at it's current state is actually both struggling with the other, SC2 having the gigantic influx of new players, and BW having what has to be considered the most talented RTS players.
Of course however the overall quality of the games right now is of course gonna be alot lower than we can expect to see in say a year or two but I as many others fear that even that far into the future the game won't hold the same entertainment value.
In essence we're arguing about a forecast which is never going to end.
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I was hoping that someone bringing this topic up after seeing a thread full of people not caring that 6 b-team has-beens or never-was retired. This could turn a generational problem. Tomorrow's Flash or Jaedong might play SC2 or some other game because the incentives to keep playing BW are disappearing. Less new players is a bigger problem than July or Nada playing SC2 and should be discussed seriously.
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On September 18 2010 08:39 maximuspita wrote:
I was hoping that someone bringing this topic up after seeing a thread full of people not caring that 6 b-team has-beens or never-was retired. This could turn a generational problem. Tomorrow's Flash or Jaedong might play SC2 or some other game because the incentives to keep playing BW are disappearing. Less new players is a bigger problem than July or Nada playing SC2 and should be discussed seriously.
Guess i can say i saw it coming :D.
Now i think Thread title could be misleading tough, at first i focused on Courage but the core issue i wanted to focus was how greatly players that retire affect BW.
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lold.
sc2 does not work on a larve variety of computers... you need a decent computer to run sc2. bw on the other hand can run on any shit computer from 15 years ago.
i dont see how it is possible to get so many facts wrong in one post like you just did
I made a computer for 350 dollars that runs starcraft2 on all high options and a few ultras.
Where's your god now.
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reveal you secrets to me !
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Thats pretty interesting, I've never thought of Courage as the measuring stick for BW
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I think SC2 does not have the potential to grow like BW has, SC2 is just a WC3 without hero's, maps are far too small, the micro factor has been reduced a lot, unit/building cost/effectiveness is totally broken, as is the game balance.
Now i know the "its a new game, it will get more balanced with time" argument, but lets be honest, they had 10+ years of developing the game, the game was not going to be perfect obviously, but with so much time, they could at least have made it a nearly balanced game, its not so hard to do.
The reason SC2 is so "big" right now, is because Blizz is FORCING it to be big, its injecting a lot of money into it to try and make it come over BW, when SC2 doesnt become such a succes as BW did, Blizzard will simply stop investing in it when it doesnt profit the way they want it to, that will kill the game because without KeSPA support, SC2 scene will not be productive enough to stay alive when Blizzard takes the money out.
Now im not saying SC2 will stop to exist, it will just never achieve BW level, it will stay at WC3 level.
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EPT
