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Random pic to make the thread more friendly...
Im gonna start this post first by explaining what is Courage since theres a lot of new people on the forum so you can get a clue.
There are 2 ways in which you can get a progamer license.
1.- Freepass. All teams in proleague (Except ACE i presume), get 2-3 per season that grant the bearer progamer status, they can use this as they please. They tend to use this with "Practice Partners" or B- Teamers (not 100% sure on this) that cant get trough Courage.
2.- .Courage A tournament held monthly (iirc) in which every amateur can participate, usually theres around 500 +/- participating (again iirc) each participant getting put on a RO64 group with the winner getting a progamer license (ONLY THE WINNER).
Courage is important for 2 reasons, one the aforementioned license and two it helps the guys who dont win to get known and if lucky get picked by a team as stated in nº1. This happens more often than not because winning Courage IS HARD AS FUCK.
Now that we get that out the way, this is what im worried about is that the SC2 "scene" in Korea gets their gosu players from 3 parts:
1- Old School Pros who see it as a second chance, plus they dont have to keep compiting for rare CHANCE to get a spot on a proleague match. (See: GARIMTO, July, etc.). Also a lot will simply try for ACE ASAP to get an easier military service in fear of BW dying.
2. B-Teamers for pretty much the same reason as stated above only they fight for the CHANCE to get a CHANCE.
3. High Level BW Amateurs/Practice Partners. These are the guys that rock the korean clanleagues, and are the nest for A LOT of the most talented progamers (See Savior[gm], Anytime[gm] to name 2 from the top of my head)
The guy on the right was an active [gm] member and went to destroy the emperor dreams for a Golden Mouse, the guy on the left was picked out of A LADDER and went to defeat King K. Rool every single soul who step on his way.
Now with SC2 number 2 and 3, as i see it, will start to slowly but steadily start to fade away. It will first start with the high level amateurs, these guys are the one who always go to Courage in hope to get picked up or get known just to be a practice partner. With SC2 on the scene they will start to try new luck seeing how they can participate on waaay easier tournaments and get money instead of "the chance for a chance of a chance".
This will lead to Courage being easier and less massive, and the newly picked B-Teamers will not be has good or talented as the other guys. Now, the way i see the progamers pyramid this will in the long time (6 months +/-) to a steady decline in the quality of practise B Teamers get (LOTS tend to practise with amateur because they are still quite good and that way the can try build order secretely).
You add this with the facts that a small percentage of the older B-Teamers will start to quit to try luck on SC2 or, in fear of BW dying an not being able to keep up with their hyungs theyll just retire.
So in conclusion, (this became quite long) Courage is the BEST way measure the current and future state of BW. What i am worried is not the old guys trying SC2, is the NEW GUYS quitting on BW.
Without newcomers there is no competition, without competition there is no E-Sport.
+ Show Spoiler +Im pretty sure this hasn been brought up for discussion before but if it was im gonna kill myself T_T because i should be studying
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Nice writeup.
And yeah, even though most of us don't want to admit it, BW is dying, or at least, losing a big chunk of its players/fans.
I hardly even play sc2 anymore outside of custom games/4v4s with friends. It's just not as "awesome" as BW is.
'Tis sad for the bw guys.
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Interesting, of course it's best to strive for opportunity.
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While there are a huge amount playing SC2, I don't think the skill level of courage will go down for quite a while ( ~1 year?)... at least I hope it doesn't =\
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It is really hard to predict the quality of upcoming courage tournaments, SC2 is still too young to know if aspiring BW progamers will switch to try and win at SC2 tournaments (and the proscene is still way too young).
Only time will tell.
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On September 16 2010 12:12 ohN wrote:
Nice writeup.
And yeah, even though most of us don't want to admit it, BW is dying, or at least, losing a big chunk of its players/fans.
I hardly even play sc2 anymore outside of custom games/4v4s with friends. It's just not as "awesome" as BW is.
'Tis sad for the bw guys.
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example.
I am not in denial nor am I bitter when I say this, but I'd like some proof backing up this sort of statement (which people use quite frequently on this board) with regards to SK (we all know this is true in NA).
Also, to OP:
Currently, the situation is supply >> demand, I don't see a lighter load being detrimental to the courage leagues just yet.
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51507 Posts
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50601 Posts
On September 16 2010 12:12 ohN wrote:
Nice writeup.
And yeah, even though most of us don't want to admit it, BW is dying, or at least, losing a big chunk of its players/fans.
I hardly even play sc2 anymore outside of custom games/4v4s with friends. It's just not as "awesome" as BW is.
'Tis sad for the bw guys.
I feel the same way too,except for the sc2 part since it still has a long way to go...2 expansions is a long way.
If BW should ever die it should die a natural and painless death.
Note: I said IF
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Some good points in your writeup. Less fresh blood also means that the currently dominating progamers will probably remain the best for a very long time, possibly until BW dies.
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I think you are overestimating the impact that SC2 has had; there is still plenty of interest in BW. What you are describing might happen eventually but it doesn't seem likely to happen in the short term.
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BW isn't dying just yet, still has high interest. I think the main reason for the low draft numbers this year compared to previous years is mainly because of the uncertainties BW is facing atm (and the scandals from the past year). With any luck (and assuming things are resolved with Blizz one way or the other) we should see draft numbers jump back up in the future.
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Until sc2 has all three expansions out, it can not hope to ever be a balanced game, and until that point- i feel that the pro bw players and the bw scene in general are not going to give it much clout. The expansions are what is going to ruin sc2. Because people will be waiting years, and with each expansion comes 2 more units for each team. By the time the other two expos have come out, that is 12 more sc units to account for.......and frankly that is just too long to wait.
the next 5-6 years of upcoming expansions for sc2 is not going to help create a strong game, where standard play can be found. Thus- there will be no real way to gauge skill, and because a new game is coming out every x or so years- pro games will have a tough time staying on top. As has been said before, there is more stability and thought into BW. I believe that most people and especially pro gamers understand this fact.
To those ends- sc2 cannot hope to start pulling in young korean hopefuls because by the time the first few turnies are over, a completely new game is going to be released. I should not even have to mention that the format of the turnies is also a detriment to competitive play, because it marginalizes the formation of teams, and as such there will not by a competitive backbone or enterprise to drive the games forward.
While i appreciate your analysis and good writeup, it occurs to me that some of the above points hold a lot of clout against your argument. While some new kids may go over to sc2, i will still think that it will be a minuscule number. Most gamers are smart enough to look bast their noses when looking to the future. While sc2 prize money looks tantalizing now, the thought of becoming licensed to play, with living quarters and a salary is so much more so.
edit: spelling
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On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example.
This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage.
Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice)
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On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice)
ya but if you hope to make it in korea, you are not going to be able to go to school full time and hope to be competitive in sc2 for long. Look at the boxer bio- he had to drop out for BW!!!!! at the time, and back then the competition was not nearly as fierce as sc2 is now. I mean the game already has a turny, and it's like a month old lol
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On September 16 2010 12:44 er.misrah wrote:
.... Because people will be waiting years, and with each expansion comes 2 more units for each team. By the time the other two expos have come out, that is 12 more sc units to account for.......and frankly that is just too long to wait.
the next 5-6 years of upcoming expansions for sc2 is not going to help create a strong game, where standard play can be found. Thus- there will be no real way to gauge skill, and because a new game is coming out every x or so years- pro games will have tough time staying on top. As has been said before, there is more stability and thought into BW. I believe that most people and especially pro gamers understand this fact.
To those ends- sc2 cannot hope to start pulling in young korean hopefuls because by the time the first few turnies are over, a completely new game is going to be released. I should not even have to mention that the format of the turnies is also a detriment to competitive play, because it marginalizes the formation of teams, and as such there will not by a competitive backbone or enterprise to drive the games forward.
You are seeing the situation Backwards, a game being balanced or fun or a good spectators sport its what helps it get established on the LONG RUN. BW wouldnt have succeded without balance but it was MONEY and the players that dedicated their time what gave it the time to be balanced.
There were lots of tournaments (MONEY) before the games was finally balanced (Patch 1.08). Hell, it took Anytime and then Bisu to completely eliminate the PvZ imba threads from Teamliquid and that was 7 years after BW was launched. But there were already 10 proteams.
The people im talking about want to be professionals, they want MONEY. As a side comment, Chess is absurdly balanced yet you dont see it on TV and most players (even pro players) starve for months before getting any cash.
Im not saying SC2 will succed purely because og bigger prizes. Im saying that players will prefer money over balance EVERYTIME. Do you see any GSL players not using Battlecruisers or Reapers just because they are broken? If it helps them win its ok with them. Its not their job to balance the game.
Of course no balance (or more importantly, NO APPARENT BALANCE) and no fun will result in spectators going away with any other game, this leads to less tourneys, then less money for the players and ultimately the player pool start to fades and the game and the ESPORT dies.
Or in a short way: No Good Game = no viewers = no tourneys = no money = no players = no game.
What im saying is that BW is ok in all the first points but its in danger of going on the penultimate stage.
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alright but if a game is not balanced it will lead to a stale competitive environment, leading to a stale spectating environment, leading to no e-sports. So i am confused, money may get them at first, but it's not going to keep them around if no one is willing to front the cash for the turny. the only reason some one is going to provide a cash prize, is so they can make more money from the advertising and view rating. If the game you are trying to get people to watch is stale, then were is this incentive?
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i think until sc2 starts paying salaries you're going to see a healthy amount of amateurs remain in BW; most people prefer security over high risk/ high reward scenarios
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nice writeup. I've always wondered about the whole courage process
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On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice)
If it doesn't have the casual players now and doesn't gain casual players as a fanbase in the future then it doesn't matter that Gretech and Blizzard tried to sell it as an eSport or that B-teamers are going there. Without fans to bring in advertisers SC2 will never take off like BW did and is continuing to do.
Frankly, unless SC2 catches on within the next three years or so in South Korea it will die at the professional level. Sure, it'll still continue and stuff but you won't see it televised or see giant prize pools like you're seeing now.
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On September 16 2010 13:12 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice) If it doesn't have the casual players now and doesn't gain casual players as a fanbase in the future then it doesn't matter that Gretech and Blizzard tried to sell it as an eSport or that B-teamers are going there. Without fans to bring in advertisers SC2 will never take off like BW did and is continuing to do. Frankly, unless SC2 catches on within the next three years or so in South Korea it will die at the professional level. Sure, it'll still continue and stuff but you won't see it televised or see giant prize pools like you're seeing now.
bw is a casual game.
lold.
sc2 seems to work on a large variety of computers and the interface is much more friendly. I can only see it doing much better in that regards to its predecessor
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
I think it's 2 passes, also if you win courage you're still not considered a pro gamer, unless you're on a pro team. People who pass courage are semi-pro's unless they belong to a pro team, most have to wait and hope they get drafted. A lot of people who passed courage never became pro gamers.
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Regarding Courage, if the demand for SC:BW is still there, even if its not large but considerable, quality of players winning courage will still be top notch or wont decline. money attracts talent IMO.
IF the viewership declines when PL pushes through .. then that will be the deciding factor for BW's death. This is the reason why Gretech wants to kill PL.
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On September 16 2010 13:08 er.misrah wrote:
So i am confused, money may get them at first, but it's not going to keep them around if no one is willing to front the cash for the turny. the only reason some one is going to provide a cash prize, is so they can make more money from the advertising and view rating. If the game you are trying to get people to watch is stale, then were is this incentive?
This is exactly the point. Im not arguing about SC2 succeding to kill BW, im saying that Courage Tournament embodies the health of BW. Obviously Courage will never be stopped by Kespa (unless they kill proleague and thats a whooole different story ) but Courage CAN die because of the players.
Most of the discussion since the GOM negotiaton fiasco goes around legal stuff and Kespa going on with the Proleague regardless of the possible consequences. And even if Kespa gets the right tomorrow to use Broodwar FOREVER theres a core issue for Broodwar to survive in the not so long run that is not being addressed. Simply put: NEW(good) PLAYERS.
Kespa is obviously in charge of preserving Broodwar, but in order to do this THEY MUST incentive new participants to "enter the business" obviously the beautiful and interesting games do they part but they need to work on getting NEW participants and NEW instances for these participants. (I say participants because im not refering exclusively about players)
This can be achieved by giving more support to amateur leagues, stablishing minimum garanties for B- Teamers, incentivating school competition, etc. This is not something im making up right now this are all ideas that have been tought for years as good ways to help BW grow even more.
Im saying in the current era thinking an developing new methods for this to happen is a neccesity for a sustainable BW scene.
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I am dumb, I need reading comprehension lessons :/
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On September 16 2010 14:17 Mortician wrote:
Nice right-up but...in the second picture, OOV is the guy on the left ^^
im pretty sure he knows that lol.
anyway nice write up i never thought about courage D:
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i dunno. if people were to quit trying to become a BW pro to get EZ money from another game, wouldnt they of left BW a while ago for War3 or some other game? I dont think SC2 is any different from those other than having SC in the name.
edit- how similar is the current situation to when war3 1st came out? anyone around back then want to shine any light?
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I was under the impression that the B-teamers automatically have pro licences by virtue of being on pro-teams? You said that the teams consider giving away their free passes to these players...
1.- Freepass. All teams in proleague (Except ACE i presume), get 2-3 per season that grant the bearer progamer status, they can use this as they please. They tend to use this with "Practice Partners" or B- Teamers (not 100% sure on this) that cant get trough Courage.
You said you're not sure though, so can anyone say definitively what the case is?
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If more and more SC2 teams keep on forming and an official team league competition begins, I am sure the Pro-gamer licence system will end up becoming a requirement for SC2.
So yea now is the time to get in while it's still easy.
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On September 16 2010 13:31 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 13:12 overt wrote:On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice) If it doesn't have the casual players now and doesn't gain casual players as a fanbase in the future then it doesn't matter that Gretech and Blizzard tried to sell it as an eSport or that B-teamers are going there. Without fans to bring in advertisers SC2 will never take off like BW did and is continuing to do. Frankly, unless SC2 catches on within the next three years or so in South Korea it will die at the professional level. Sure, it'll still continue and stuff but you won't see it televised or see giant prize pools like you're seeing now. bw is a casual game. lold. sc2 seems to work on a large variety of computers and the interface is much more friendly. I can only see it doing much better in that regards to its predecessor
Do you realize that actually in SK BW is an e-sport and not a casual game for some people?, tell me how many posts are you going to write this time to let us know that SC2 is greater than BW?
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
On September 16 2010 14:33 Subversive wrote:I was under the impression that the B-teamers automatically have pro licences by virtue of being on pro-teams? You said that the teams consider giving away their free passes to these players... Show nested quote +1.- Freepass. All teams in proleague (Except ACE i presume), get 2-3 per season that grant the bearer progamer status, they can use this as they please. They tend to use this with "Practice Partners" or B- Teamers (not 100% sure on this) that cant get trough Courage. You said you're not sure though, so can anyone say definitively what the case is?
To be part of a pro team's B team you have to be a pro gamer, they use those passes on practice partners who do fairly well in training games but just don't have the right mindset to pass courage or just a bad day, for whatever reason can't pass courage.
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On September 16 2010 14:23 Ideas wrote:
edit- how similar is the current situation to when war3 1st came out? anyone around back then want to shine any light?
WAR 3 growed in armony with BW, besides 1 or 2 progamers that switchet to try luck. But it wasnt too good as an spectator sport + it was too slow + theres was this HUGE scandal when a network pulled a lastshadow on some maps favoring a race (think it was orc) to help some players. This happened during the early tournaments so so WC3 was seen as less serious than BW. Also WC3 didnt have Boxers or Xellos or Nadas or Yellows or etc.. Afaik only Moon are Grubby area really known outside the scene. (Not 100% sure cause i dont follow the WC3 at all)
As a matter of fact, after a while some WC3 progamers switched to BW, most notably  DarkElf who looked really promising when he started. (This was around the one who shall not be remembered era iirc) who actually said that he switched because BW was more prestigious.
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10387 Posts
Mmm there was this UD progamer who was really popular in Korea I think, but then he went to military lololol. Freedom was another notable progamer who did the WC3->BW switch I think, he was the one w/ the beastly TvZ stats? lol
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Freedom was bad, had around 20 televised games and for a reason, now plays SC2
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dont look at it as a pyramid where the top is so high because of stones underneath it. thats not how progaming works.
look at it as a sword, which is sharp because you sharpened it. maybe the not so sharp players dont go to courage anymore, but those who would cut through all the rest still are there. theres no loss in quality, just in quantity
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 16 2010 13:12 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 12:44 skindzer wrote:On September 16 2010 12:19 Cambium wrote:
From what I gathered by reading the forums, SC2 doesn't seem to have share the same success in SK as NA for example. This is true but mostly for the CASUAL gamers which are important for a game to BECOME an E-Sport in the natural way and reasons where already stated in a blog that was made like a month ago (cant remember the user who made it). It hasnt worked well on PcBangs, too many PC requirementes for the average PC, etc. But seeing how Blizzard (and GOM) pushed SC2 as an ESPORT since the start the casual gamer its not a part of the equation. The casual players doesnt affect the people that nurture (couldnt find a better word :p) Courage. Remember that the primarily motivation for this guy is "to be able to live doing what they like" (or are talented for). Also, and this is something i forgot to add in the OP. Pursuing a "SC2 Career" gives them A LOT more of free time and less menial task (B Teamers have others duties besides playing) so this will let them study on their free time or work or whatever which also will relieve their parents pressure. (Progaming IS A RISKY career choice) If it doesn't have the casual players now and doesn't gain casual players as a fanbase in the future then it doesn't matter that Gretech and Blizzard tried to sell it as an eSport or that B-teamers are going there. Without fans to bring in advertisers SC2 will never take off like BW did and is continuing to do. Frankly, unless SC2 catches on within the next three years or so in South Korea it will die at the professional level. Sure, it'll still continue and stuff but you won't see it televised or see giant prize pools like you're seeing now.
You don't need casual gamers, you need spectators. BW isn't even the most popular game in South Korean PC bangs. The game just has to be exciting to watch. Look at WoW, it's the most casual game around with 10 million+ players, but it will never be a true e-sport because spectating it is about as fun as watching paint dry (and people are finally starting to realise this if my last visit to WoWRiot is any indication).
Do you think all those girls who show up to every proleague and OSL/MSL game play BW competitively? Some might, but I'd say most BW spectators just enjoy watching the game and following the players, just as most football spectators don't play themselves.
I see SC2 growing in Korea already, especially now that Fomos is giving it a lot of attention (which hasn't really been discussed on TL, but I think is a really important move) and famous players like July are switching over/creating new teams. GSL has been progressing smoothly and the timing is pretty much perfect (off-season for BW). People are obviously hesitant at first, but it's clearly gaining momentum and will only grow exponentially imo.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene.
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On September 16 2010 17:01 Mortician wrote:
Freedom was bad, had around 20 televised games and for a reason, now plays SC2
Still was enough to beat Jaedong @ Proleague :D
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On September 16 2010 13:08 d_so wrote:
i think until sc2 starts paying salaries you're going to see a healthy amount of amateurs remain in BW; most people prefer security over high risk/ high reward scenarios
This is exactly how I feel. I'm not worried about BW at all. 
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I like to think that SC2 isn't good enough to really take off in korea, but then I look at the non-SC esports in korea and gag lol
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On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene.
Starcraft 2 is about 2 months old, better players, better gameplay, more harassment and better maps come with time. It's not like broodwar suddenly became the game it's now. It took years and years.
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On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene.
You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
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On September 16 2010 23:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene. You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
Touché.
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On September 16 2010 23:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene. You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
Nazgul, is gom paying players for each game ?
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Seriously this is definitely not something to worry about.
You holds a tournament and only give progamer license to the very winner, so what is the point of having like 1000 people participating in your tournament (I know it's not the case but you get my point) ? Only players that have like 33% chance of winning the tournament should participate, the rest (those who have 0% chance of winning) should go away, really.
So some people decide that Courage is too difficult and switch to the easier SC2 tournament ? Good for them, what is the point of having them in courage while they cannot win ? If you only need one progamer par Courage then you will always have that one, and his skill will always be high enough.
People can take both Courage and Sc2 tournaments, it's their choice and it's good for both games. BW will always get that very top guy from Courage and SC2 will benefit from those who cannot make it to the top.
I see no problem at all, don't be too conservative this matter does like 0.0001 damage to BW in general and BW won't die because of it.
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With SC2 on the scene they will start to try new luck seeing how they can participate on waaay easier tournaments and get money instead of "the chance for a chance of a chance".
But in its present state, SC2 can't support a lot of players.
Its not like several hundred people can leave BW and make a better living.
The top 16 might do better, but everyone else is likely to make more from a baseline proteam salary +free room/board.
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On September 17 2010 00:19 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +With SC2 on the scene they will start to try new luck seeing how they can participate on waaay easier tournaments and get money instead of "the chance for a chance of a chance". But in its present state, SC2 can't support a lot of players. Its not like several hundred people can leave BW and make a better living. The top 16 might do better, but everyone else is likely to make more from a baseline proteam salary +free room/board.
actually its easier the "get money" if youre a paid programer then to win gsl...
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Russian Federation327 Posts
It's not like broodwar suddenly became the game it's now.
Nah, I knew it. The problem is that we have SCBW already, we have things to compare against. It makes things quite different. Imagine that SC is a car. The first model was dumpy, unreliable and so on. But there ware no alternatives, it was fresh and new. And after the years of tuning you got a sport car. Now you again get scrub on the wheels with new hull. Do you change your sport car for this ?
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im planning on playing courage on december lol ill loose on the first round but whatever....
Courage of sc2?
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On September 16 2010 23:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:18 Yodo wrote:
SC2 has its own problems:
1. Mediocrity players. SC2 mostly consist from old SC1 players and B-teamers who cant perform well in SC1. Which automatically leads to competition between B and C lvl players. Even top fights are far below in comparison to average SC1 level of the game. No points to watch it (at least for me).
So, why do people watch it? The answer is - hype. If Blizz or GOM stop forcing SC2, cut prize money etc it will die. SC2 need a lot of promotion and babysitting as it doesn't posses anything attractive at current stage.
2. Game design. SC2 more resemble W3 than SC1 in my humble opinion. The general problems are maps (too small, no place for strategical control) and one-big-blob army. Most of the games is like macro-macro-macro one big fight, the end. Maybe after expansions things will change but SC2 needs to survive until then.
W3 was unable to overweight SC1 due to similar reasons but back then SC1 was not so old. Now people unconsciously feel that SC1 outdated and die which can lead to SC2 victory on e-scene. You are comparing skill level in a game that is 2 months old vs one that is over 10 years old. It has nothing to do with who plays it and everything to do with having played it for a few months max. It is inevitable therefor. If this makes you not want to watch it that is fine of course but do so with this in the back of your mind. If Flash and Jaedong had been around when Boxer played BW nobody would have given a shit about Lim Yo-Hwan. That doesn't make what he did worth less. He dominated his peers which is all you can ask for from a champion.
I'd say it has alot to do with who plays it.
Think we can establish that there is a pretty high correlation between BW skill and SC2 skill.
Problem is though that far to few of the top of the food chain made the switch (I mean why would they, got contracts) which for many people such as myself make current SC2 feel a bit "meh" in comparison to what it would have had every proteam embraced it from the start.
I'd say SC2 and BW at it's current state is actually both struggling with the other, SC2 having the gigantic influx of new players, and BW having what has to be considered the most talented RTS players.
Of course however the overall quality of the games right now is of course gonna be alot lower than we can expect to see in say a year or two but I as many others fear that even that far into the future the game won't hold the same entertainment value.
In essence we're arguing about a forecast which is never going to end.
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I was hoping that someone bringing this topic up after seeing a thread full of people not caring that 6 b-team has-beens or never-was retired. This could turn a generational problem. Tomorrow's Flash or Jaedong might play SC2 or some other game because the incentives to keep playing BW are disappearing. Less new players is a bigger problem than July or Nada playing SC2 and should be discussed seriously.
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On September 18 2010 08:39 maximuspita wrote:
I was hoping that someone bringing this topic up after seeing a thread full of people not caring that 6 b-team has-beens or never-was retired. This could turn a generational problem. Tomorrow's Flash or Jaedong might play SC2 or some other game because the incentives to keep playing BW are disappearing. Less new players is a bigger problem than July or Nada playing SC2 and should be discussed seriously.
Guess i can say i saw it coming :D.
Now i think Thread title could be misleading tough, at first i focused on Courage but the core issue i wanted to focus was how greatly players that retire affect BW.
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lold.
sc2 does not work on a larve variety of computers... you need a decent computer to run sc2. bw on the other hand can run on any shit computer from 15 years ago.
i dont see how it is possible to get so many facts wrong in one post like you just did
I made a computer for 350 dollars that runs starcraft2 on all high options and a few ultras.
Where's your god now.
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reveal you secrets to me !
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Thats pretty interesting, I've never thought of Courage as the measuring stick for BW
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I think SC2 does not have the potential to grow like BW has, SC2 is just a WC3 without hero's, maps are far too small, the micro factor has been reduced a lot, unit/building cost/effectiveness is totally broken, as is the game balance.
Now i know the "its a new game, it will get more balanced with time" argument, but lets be honest, they had 10+ years of developing the game, the game was not going to be perfect obviously, but with so much time, they could at least have made it a nearly balanced game, its not so hard to do.
The reason SC2 is so "big" right now, is because Blizz is FORCING it to be big, its injecting a lot of money into it to try and make it come over BW, when SC2 doesnt become such a succes as BW did, Blizzard will simply stop investing in it when it doesnt profit the way they want it to, that will kill the game because without KeSPA support, SC2 scene will not be productive enough to stay alive when Blizzard takes the money out.
Now im not saying SC2 will stop to exist, it will just never achieve BW level, it will stay at WC3 level.
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