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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 01 2010 02:47 segfix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 01:53 PetitCrabe wrote:
are people so insecure they need to bash a game that just came out 3 frigging months ago? I've been following BW pro scene for 2-3 years now and i find it awesome even though i have never played BW except for turret defense... now i play SC2 and follow its scene too and i do see that the SC2 pros are not comparable to the pros of SC1 but they are hell lot better than the pros of SCBW 3 months after it was released... let the pros find good strats for SC2, wait for 2 expansions and at least 5-10 balance patch before saying SC2 sucks... So you're saying SC2 sucks but it doesn't suck because it won't suck in a few years? Well, tell me when it stops sucking. Until then, I'll stick with nonsucky BW.
Correction. He didn't say it wouldn't suck. He said people should wait to pass judgement. It MIGHT not suck, but it also could turn out to suck rather bad even after all the patching.
I wonder if we should follow the same logic with every other RTS that comes out though. I'm willing to bet that if people play the new DOW 2 expansion for long enough, and if Relic patches it for long enough, and if anyone but Relic and Intel and some obscure internet TV-program broadcasted it, it might not suck at all! It will reintroduce more base building, and I'm pretty sure they want to go farther with their franchise, as this is the second expansion that's coming out and lots of races haven't even been added! Also, SC2 kind of has had it's time in the sun, I mean the graphics are really outdated and my eyes hurt looking at them, it's also pointlessly difficult. I'd really like to see  Flash,  Jaedong, IdrA and  TesteR to switch to DOW2 Retribution because sponsors will flock to the newer game and new strategies will definitely evolve. Just give it time AND A CHANCE. Either THIS, or E-sports will DIE.
Then again, this logic might also be bloody stupid and Brood war as an established E-sport might be the most awesome thing man has ever made. I sure as hell love it to death.
ONTOPIC: really great OP, even if it was just a reply to another post.
As for the second point: I feel that I am as casual as I can be in the BW scene. I would get terribly crushed by even solid D players, and lots of D- players, and I'll admit that I've played a ton of SC2 instead, but whenever one of my friends (that currently serve in the army) that are on the same skilllevel as me are able to play, these few games of BW are way, WAY more enjoyable for me. I do get better bit by bit, and switching strategies due to maps and mindgames is also fun as heck. If you find people as good as you are, the game is a blast even at sub D- .
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On October 01 2010 02:47 segfix wrote:So you're saying SC2 sucks but it doesn't suck because it won't suck in a few years? Well, tell me when it stops sucking. Until then, I'll stick with nonsucky BW.
He is talking about the pro scene. Clearly three months after release SC2 doesn't have an established pro scene with like Jaedong or Flash because they haven't had any championships yet and the best players are still mastering that game. That being said, there are a ton of tournaments and a lot of broadcasts already for such a young game. His point was, three months after Brood Wars came out, the scene was nothing like the SC2 scene is today. Just give it a chance because perhaps both can coexist.
What he was not saying is that SC2 sucks as a game. If Brood Wars came out three months ago and SC2 was the established game, everyone would be tearing Brood Wars to shreds because of the poor automation such as resource gathering, limited ability to only select 12 units and the poor AI/path-finding. Give SC2 a chance, different doesn't always mean worse. Although there may be a few more balance patches as players are just exploring the advanced builds and strategies that you can do with the new units and maps.
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Turtlebay, I think people who say sc2 sucks are a bit excessive here but...
... if it doesn't suck badly, it's CLEARLY inferior to its predecessor, on many points except maybe graphics (even debatable). If you'd have played enough of both games, you would know what i mean.
People in this thread think it's a pity that some teenagers say the better game has to go because "it's time to evolve", or other similar bullshit. I think educated people are ready to give sc2 "a chance", and both games can coexist. But there are so few chances it becomes even as good as broodwar, that the safe bet is for sure to keep playing the best game ever made and work on it for esport.
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just wanted to say that i prefer the old bw graphics to the sc2 ones.
i can't really tell what's going on and it was so much more satisfying to see marine or lurker blood on the ground after a huge battle.
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i feel like playing sc1 more and more. some of the primary reasons are that its already established, its greatly balanced and just looks good. The reason i don´t really want to do it is
that it requires me to learn all the strats again and to be introduced with this harder game. Not sure. want to see sc2 get more fun, because atm, its pretty lame.
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In the end it's all going to be a matter of Sponsorships & viewers rating.
A Sport only survives if it have 3 things: Sponsors, Viewers and Prize.
The more viewers, the more sponsors will like to support the sport.
The more sponsors, Bigger the prize will be.
Bigger the prize, more viewers will become interested.
The more viewers, .... you get the idea.
The trouble is that SC2 is already having HUGE prizes and the problem is that BW players can easily play SC2 (of course).
So BW & SC2 can't be compared to anything because there isn't a single sport that is able to substitute another sport as good as SC2 can be a substitute to BW
And why ? Because The prize pool will obviously make flash & jaedong to play SC2... and they will be freaking good at it, so they will substitute BW for SC2, or else it would be retarded... why wouldn't play a game that he can learn so fast and be able to win bigger prizes in the future ?.
Hey if every single basketball star, moved to a NEW GAME (not a one that already exist) called MARSketball 3000 and it had huge prizes as Basketball and after 1 year they will get even BIGGER prizes!!, then for sure all the fans will also support their teams in MARSketball 3000.
So the fans will just have to go to SC2 and the 8year old boy might be confused in the beginning but as soon as he sees his Idol Jaedong playing SC2, then he will also play SC2.
A sport is a business model. Plain simple.
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Esports is relative. In the reference frame of BW (herein referred to as S), BW appears to be at rest with respect to Esports, because the proscene is still there, there are still many BW players, and there are even people who switched (like me) who will probably go back at some point (when I have more time) and play again. The reference frame of SC2 (herein referred to as S`) is moving at a speed v with respect to S, the reference frame of BW. Therefore, to an observer in S`(the reference frame of SC2), S(the reference frame of BW) appears to be moving at a speed -v. This is where we get people who think BW is dying. Sponsors saw that S` was moving with a speed v with respect to Esports, and so they have jumped on. S` has to continue to move at a speed v with respect to Esports in order to succeed as an Esport. But does the fact that S` is moving at a speed v have any effect on the speed S is moving at with respect to Esports? No. The two reference frames are mutually exclusive.
+1 to Funnybananaman for an awesome post (never seen this good a post from him). By the way, I don't agree that SC2 should be the game for "casual players", any more than I agree with the fact that SC2 should replace BW . SC2 can have a really good, long-lasting scene IF Blizzard doesn't screw this up. But does that have any bearing on how BW does? Only reason I am not playing BW is because I honestly don't have the time. I'm too busy with relativistic physics. =)
Btw this thread should get featured or something. No self-respecting SC2 player goes to the BW section...
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This Ajnin fellow completely misses the point, of course a 2010 ipod is superior in every respect to a 2003 ipod, improved gameplay isn't something that automatically comes from improved technology though...
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I don't see why a game as complex and profoundly popular as BW cannot become a true sport and is played decades from now despite the graphics purely because of the skill required to play the game and the quality of the matches. I really believe that - while Blizzard and Gretech may have plans to the contrary it would make sense to me if BW and SC2 could exist alongside each other as both games are great to watch and play. They skill sets each while quite similar differ in enough ways that both can co-exist.
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On October 01 2010 07:32 Drakan wrote:
In the end it's all going to be a matter of Sponsorships & viewers rating.
A Sport only survives if it have 3 things: Sponsors, Viewers and Prize.
The more viewers, the more sponsors will like to support the sport.
The more sponsors, Bigger the prize will be.
Bigger the prize, more viewers will become interested.
The more viewers, .... you get the idea.
The trouble is that SC2 is already having HUGE prizes and the problem is that BW players can easily play SC2 (of course).
So BW & SC2 can't be compared to anything because there isn't a single sport that is able to substitute another sport as good as SC2 can be a substitute to BW
And why ? Because The prize pool will obviously make flash & jaedong to play SC2... and they will be freaking good at it, so they will substitute BW for SC2, or else it would be retarded... why wouldn't play a game that he can learn so fast and be able to win bigger prizes in the future ?.
Hey if every single basketball star, moved to a NEW GAME (not a one that already exist) called MARSketball 3000 and it had huge prizes as Basketball and after 1 year they will get even BIGGER prizes!!, then for sure all the fans will also support their teams in MARSketball 3000.
So the fans will just have to go to SC2 and the 8year old boy might be confused in the beginning but as soon as he sees his Idol Jaedong playing SC2, then he will also play SC2.
A sport is a business model. Plain simple.
Tournaments with Prize money is not where u want 2 be... u want 2 have it like BW or atleast something like that. but not that u have 2 hope u make enough money 2 get something 2 eat for the next months.
so no they wont switch to SCII because the tournament may have more Prize money. because they get the fucking salary which is save money and for people like flash and jaedong its more anyway.
but yeah the thinking "u guys" have is the reason why not 1 ! game will become rlly big in the west. everytime some new big game is announced u just go for it not matter how good or bad it is. u just go for it. because its new.
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I'm starting to believe this SC2 versus SC : BW BS will surpass the ridiculous MBS debate. For those who weren't here, any MBS discussion was closed on sight for a number of months because it led nowhere and Blizzard was going to do it regardless of what people had to say. Many of us grew tired of the endless circular arguments.
I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to hear about this for the next five years. Hell, it might even take longer for this stupidity to play out. I say let Starcraft 2 mature. They got two expansions to make it 'right.' Even then what next? Starcraft 3 another ten years from now? Then what? The pros and hardcore players need the casuals just as much as they need each other. Whether you guys like it or not, you are in this together.
More viewership and exposure can only be a good thing because it will bring more money into the prize pools and hopefully more sponsors, but at what cost? Could it be a dead-end? It took years for the BW Pro Scene to take shape. The leagues had sponsorship from banks to chip companies like Pringles. Unfortunately, international sponsors still are computer-gaming related and have yet to branch out. It comes down to viability of the market and unfortunately E-Sports isn't there yet nor will it ever be if the gaming culture continues to evolve rapidly with new games and new youthful gamers coming into the mix with different expectations.
To summarize: the number one problem with E-Sports in Western society is that the games keep changing and so does it's base market. There is absolutely no longevity and as such most games can never grow, or fully mature. BW might be the only significant example of this and this only pertains to one small market: Korea. To kill off BW. You kill off the only proven RTS game with any sustainability.
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Broodwar is an 'esport': it is enjoyed by people who have never played BW. SC2 is a nice, it is enjoyed only by those who play/are in the know.
Broodwar in Korea is an incredibly fortuitous set of circumstances arising in South Korea and South Korea alone; I don't believe that the success of BW in Korea can be replicated around the world. SC2 is too pretty (in reality: unintelligible to uninitiated viewers therefore of no worth to 'oi polloi') and obviously, and unsurprisingly, unbalanced in comparison to BW.
The problem with E-sports in Western society is that no game has overcome the 'nerd factor', has not arrived at the correct time as BW did in Korea; does not have the same set of unchanging rules as a physical support such as soccer has; i.e. the players are in some way subject to the developers which greatly weakens the supposed strength of the players (an example of this malleability in esports is the nature of debates about whether flash is as good as boxer etc, although this is certainly comparable to soccer). However, e-sports have too many flaws and too much prejudice (in most countries, i can't claim to know about all) to succeed. I don't know. Does anyone think that future SC2 tournaments will draw 1m+ viewers? Is that too narrow a paramater for succes for e-sports?
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The SC2 players who say "OMFG U BASH A GAME THAT CAME OUT 3 MONTHS AGO SO INSECURE GIVE IT TIME" need to understand that most people saying that SC2 sucks are actually accounting for an indefinite future.
Yeah, ok, it hasn't had time for balance changes or for any real strategies to develop yet. Let's fast forward into a theoretical future when Blizzard has completely balanced all three races and the SC2 pro-scene still exists. Maybe there will be some harder micro involved, who knows? But certain things aren't going to change.
The skill ceiling is still going to be low due to MBS, automine, unlimited selection, autocast, etc. Everyone is going to be able to play the game to the max.
Games will probably still consist of two balls 1a-ing into each other.
There still won't be LAN.
Everything will still be played on Bnet 2.0
Conclusion: Even if Brood War dies, and Starcraft 2 survives, the pro-scene of SC2 will never be as good as Brood War proscene today.
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On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote:
Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
HELL YEAH!
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"The skill ceiling is still going to be low due to MBS, automine, unlimited selection, autocast, etc. "
Anything that lowers APM lowers the skill ceiling? That seems like a narrow definition of skill. Lets get rid of hotkeys. In fact get rid of all unit AI. Have it so that each SCV needs to be selected every trip they go to harvest minerals. Or use the Warcraft: Orc vs. Humans interface (I believe it was 4 units max selected). APM would go through the roof! Between Dune II and present the interface of RTS games has evolved, SC is somewhere in the middle and I don't see how it is more perfect than all interfaces before or after it, just at a certain spot on the evolution.
"Everyone is going to be able to play the game to the max."
That is simply not true, already a handful of players are consistently near the top of the rankings. Many of them are ex-BW or ex-WC3. Sure it isn't a pure APM battle, but the top pros are still at 200+ and the pros are the ones playing hundreds of games who can counter anything and stay in any game regardless of APM.
"Games will probably still consist of two balls 1a-ing into each other."
Simply not true, with more UI assists, harass and timing pushes into the mid game is more important as managing several attacks and defends while keeping economy up becomes possible. SC2 is well balanced where I have seen battles of attrition, but also base races, base swaps, rush wins,mass single unit wins, mixed army wins, winning through forcing the opponent to mine out, proxy wins... basically all of the game types from SC one happen at the higher levels in SC2. You say probably like you have never looked up high level SC2 battles on youtube or seen the save games here.
"There still won't be LAN. Everything will still be played on Bnet 2.0"
I'm guessing this is so that people won't steal Blizzard games. Nintendo had a huge piracy problem with the DS in Korea (1.4 million illegal DS flash karts in a country where 2 million DS sold). Blizzard knows that this is a potential problem for them and want to let gamers know that no CD key = no multi-player. Although I'm sure Blizzard vs. KeSPA played a role in this too. I wish there was LAN but I could imagine people abusing it (I know people who set up whole LANs with one BW CD key for example).
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Im guessing you are also aware that top-level play is simply impossible without LAN latency?
In a game (BW) where timing windows and decision making are in a matter of less than a second, B.net-level ping will have too big of an effect on gameplay (50ms ping difference will be huge)..
That Blizzard does not support LAN shows how much they care to support high level gameplay. And as a fan, i am utterly disappointed.
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On September 29 2010 16:14 Slago wrote:Why do people compare SC2 to sports soooooo much, I know its quite off topic, but im pretty much a closet nerd, ive played BW for 10 years love the pro scene and all, but I'm an Athlete, i was a jock in school, thats all im gonna say bout that so people dont think im trying to brag. Anyway, it almost angers me that people will compare starcraft to things like hockey and basketball, I love games and sports, but there separate, and it's not too say one is better than the other, it's excactly the opposite, it makes me so angry that people need to feel like physical things are superior to mental things, I.E. chess to lacrosse, I love lacrosse IMO best sport on earth (than again i am canadian  ), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK This is wildly off topic but it's just something that really bothers me and needed to get if off my chest, and no one reads the blogs
ya thats like definitely an opinion.
coming from another athlete, I totally disagree with you.
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I kind of think that there's not much we nobody starcraft players can do about this whole BW dying crisis.
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30 years from now, people will play SC7. SC1-5 will die out almost completely.
This is E-sports, where computational engines and virtual reality matter. You can't relate SC1 to chess, because chess and any other non-E-sports don't rely on graphics enhancement, etc.
The dying process is progressive. SC1 will have the same fate as Pacman / Donkey Kong / Mario.
The point is: accept SC1 will eventually die out and SC2+ will take over. Opposing this thought is delusional.
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This is going to be one big quote train of one-liners as I'm now tired of recycling the same explanations to a new person stating the same fundamentally wrong points:
Turtlebay wrote:
three months after Brood Wars came out, the scene was nothing like the SC2 scene is today.
Not comparable. BW completed SC and SC2 isn't complete yet. Parent company money exists in the latter, not in the former.
Drakan wrote:
Because The prize pool will obviously make flash & jaedong to play SC2... and they will be freaking good at it, so they will substitute BW for SC2, or else it would be retarded... why wouldn't play a game that he can learn so fast and be able to win bigger prizes in the future
Even if a single player took down every single tournament worldwide, its not as much as their salaries+promotions in BW. There's no reason to believe that future sponsors are suddenly going to be putting tons of money into it like the parent companies have. PARENT COMPANY MONEY.
Drakan wrote:
Hey if every single basketball star, moved to a NEW GAME
Going to cut you off right there. If you believe that there's even a chance that a 100% conversion of professionals of any given anything to another medium is plausible in the real world, you must not associate with people at all.
SichuanPanda wrote:
I don't see why a game as complex and profoundly popular as BW cannot become a true sport and is played decades from now despite the graphics purely because of the skill required to play the game and the quality of the matches
You can't understand why if a hypothetical game (you're referring to SC2 as "as complex as BW"... lol I'm assuming you mean an imaginary game that doesn't exist right now) that is easy and has low quality matches that people won't want to watch for an extended period of time won't succeed as an eSport... a spectator-based... you know what? Nevermind.
Turtlebay wrote:
Anything that lowers APM lowers the skill ceiling? That seems like a narrow definition of skill.
You keep saying "APM" instead of "Multi-tasking Ability". Less to do with less necessary management does in fact require a lot less skill thus lowering the ceiling.
Turtlebay wrote:
That is simply not true, already a handful of players are consistently near the top of the rankings.
Every time new players who are either old progamers too old to be top players anymore, or foreign pros who never had a chance to even see a finals at a major tournament enters the SC2 world, they're on top within literally DAYS.
Turtlebay wrote:
Simply not true, with more UI assists, harass and timing pushes into the mid game is more important as managing several attacks and defends while keeping economy up becomes possible.
A new timing push in a previously-unknown window, a cheesy-type style of play, and completely overwhelming an opponent so they can't even leave their base indicates an incomplete and imbalanced game. What you described up there does happen, but on a very low and inferior level (yes of course I watched high-level SC2 matches because I'm looking to see if it really can morph at some point).
Turtlebay wrote:
I'm guessing this is so that people won't steal Blizzard games.
Dumbest thing I've seen anyone try to pass off as "reason" in a long time. Go learn about the developing digital world even just a little bit and you'll change this.
Crt wrote:
You can't relate SC1 to chess, because chess and any other non-E-sports don't rely on graphics enhancement, etc.
Yes you can, and yeah they do. HD broadcasting has increased worldwide interest in so many things because you can see what the heck is going on. Go ahead and show me how the numbers of spectators of anything broadcast that hasn't increased as technology grew. BW would've died out when 3-D graphics became possible if you were correct. Opinions like this are only possible in people who have no idea how things work in the world (no specific category as you must be equally retarded in all to think this kind of logic is in any way, shape, or form "correct").
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EPT
