On September 29 2010 16:00 youinspireme wrote: What about the argument of poker? There's tons of styles to play and only recently did 1 form get extremely popular. SC2 could be the No Limit Hold'em of video games. Just saying..
ESPN + Luck into millions of dollars. That's what made NLHE popular, not the skill.
To the OP, your arguement has been made before in TL, just can't remember where. But not nearly as well addressed, to which I applaud. E-Sports is a paradox, and until a company dedicates itself to it, it will never be what many of us want it to be. Eventually, BW will be phased out, simply because computers are able to play more games as PC Bangs upgrade their computers. Furthermore, BW isn't that super popular in Korea as many think. Rek has stated it many times before, it's the WWE of Korea. A niche group that is extremely strong and keep the form of entertainment going.
On September 29 2010 16:14 Slago wrote: Why do people compare SC2 to sports soooooo much, I know its quite off topic, but im pretty much a closet nerd, ive played BW for 10 years love the pro scene and all, but I'm an Athlete, i was a jock in school, thats all im gonna say bout that so people dont think im trying to brag. Anyway, it almost angers me that people will compare starcraft to things like hockey and basketball, I love games and sports, but there separate, and it's not too say one is better than the other, it's excactly the opposite, it makes me so angry that people need to feel like physical things are superior to mental things, I.E. chess to lacrosse, I love lacrosse IMO best sport on earth (than again i am canadian ), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
This is wildly off topic but it's just something that really bothers me and needed to get if off my chest, and no one reads the blogs
Well the point of referring to sports is to create an analogy and help people see the parallels between them. Yes, in your off-topic rant, I agree that it is annoying when people try to use physical things such as sports, gf, car, or anything in general to try to belittle others.
People who are saying stop comparing eSports to normal physical sports:
If you can't understand the similarities in terms of contracts, teams, professional teams, managers, media, drafts, mandatory daily practice to keep on top, etc, then there's no reason for you to respond. I hate having to explain things about myself (irl) to an online forum that basically could just say "I don't believe you" and there's nothing you can do about it because you simply don't care enough to push it farther with lolonlinechat.
I have been a real athlete my entire life. I started training in Tae-Kwon-Do Gukaewon method when I was 6 years old, studied Dragon Shaolin for 4 years, and then Wing Chun for the last 2 (until present day). I did professional competition for 11 years. I was crowned regionals champion 8 times, world champion 2 times, and I've fought before the Grand Master Yip Chun. I'm currently involved with film and trying to become an action star in USA, and I practice and work out every single day to keep myself up to snuff. Coming from someone with THIS MUCH of an athletic background (and this is only my martial arts aspect, I can go much much farther), I see similarities that can be drawn between the two. Whenever you go into a "professional"-ANYTHING, your life pretty much becomes that thing. Whether its a sport, esport, career path, life ambition, etc, the same elements exist for both.
Do I think that there are differences? Abso-freakin-lutely. Do I also think that similarities can be drawn to many like elements? Again, the answer is Abso-freakin-lutely. The main one being that a game can continue to evolve and grow over time. This is incredibly apparent in what we would call "normal sports" since the games have been around for so long. This is only just NOW starting to become apparent in eSport games. Go back 50 to 100 years in any sport existing on the planet. I guarantee you it wasn't played the same back then the way it is now. Is it RADICALLY different? No, you just apply the new rules or playing styles to achieve the same end (to win). The exact same thing exists for eSport gaming.
One world is physically demanding, time-demanding, and dominant world-wide. The other world is a new realm of mentally demanding, time-demanding, and not-so-dominant-yet world-wide. Our job as members of this community is to continue to support the scene, and help it to grow and evolve into something long-lasting. I want to see both Sports and E-Sports making it happen alongside each other. I don't see how adding career paths world-wide could really turn out to be so bad.
very good thread , but 1 ideea is wrong, no matter if you are E---- or A ++++ if you play an oponent of the same lvl u will have fun ,so if 2 players who never played bw , play now a game they will have fun ofcourse if you are E and u play a C u will be crushed , but that can be also cool to see what can be done in a game , and to see where u need to evolve
p.s when u are playing sc1 or 2 at a 150+ apm u don't see any graphics or here almost any sound, so this slow sc2 players below 100 they just look at an scv how he brings minerals and say wowwwwwwwwwwww
Great post, and I agree with pretty much everything written. Then again, I love BW, so I'm biased.
While I'm glad funnybananaman made the effort, I really can't see fans of SC2 changing their opinions, and stop posting their clearly shit-stirring posts. The problem is that people aren't looking at the arguments logically when it comes to BW vs SC2. Comments are almost always based on raw emotions, and that's why I can't see anything changing, no matter how logical or articulate people are with their arguments.
Still, hopefully funnybananaman feels better for getting this off his chest, and I for one applaud the fact that he took the time to try and educate the stirrers.
Nice post. I was actually thinking about the exact same bw - sport comparison just yesterday. Bw is such a simple, yet such a powerful construct with a history like NO OTHER video game ever.
One thing that bothers me in this discussion is people say "bw isn't a sport" it's all sit-down and shit. Bw is as much of a sport as snooker is. Both highly competitive, both more metally exhausting than physically.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
Why don't you drop your pre assumptions about how stuff works/can work/should work and actually come up with some logical reasons to support your opinions.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
Why don't you drop your pre assumptions about how stuff works/can work/should work and actually come up with some logical reasons to support your opinions.
I don't think you can really compare Starcraft with real sports.
The thing about sports is that there can be no real improvements to the game, other than materials used. For example, a soccer field can be outfitted with new turf and players will wear lighter, better clothes and cleats. The reason why is because improvements are not needed. The action is always great to watch, since there's nothing more high-definition than real life. And the method of broadcasting sports will only improve in quality over time.
Broadcasting Starcraft games has improved as well, as we could see for the past 12 years. The one downside to computer games is that they quickly become outdated in terms of quality, right? Starcraft is really pixelated and grainy compared to the newest games. So, several years down the road, it'd be hard to justify why people are still broadcasting Starcraft when the quality is so "bad" relative to the current games.
Unless, Starcraft can be like Super Smash Bros, and keep updating the quality of their game without affecting the gameplay too much. But, of course, Starcraft2 isn't a simple graphics update.
For example: I thought Quake2 had pretty good graphics. But I was blown away by Quake3, then Quake4. Shooter games nowadays just own those past games in terms of graphics so much. In the end, to hold wide appeal, it has to look good too. Starcraft has been in a league of it's own for a long time. But now, Starcraft2 is a rival game with better graphics and the same, great resource-emphasized gameplay. Once Starcraft2 gets a few more patches and becomes really balanced, then Starcraft1 will sadly become less loved. I probably won't buy Starcraft2 though.
On September 29 2010 19:51 XsebT wrote: Nice post. I was actually thinking about the exact same bw - sport comparison just yesterday. Bw is such a simple, yet such a powerful construct with a history like NO OTHER video game ever.
One thing that bothers me in this discussion is people say "bw isn't a sport" it's all sit-down and shit. Bw is as much of a sport as snooker is. Both highly competitive, both more metally exhausting than physically.
i still think its safe to say that bw is the game with the most high skill ceiling ever... and its one of the hardest games to master that were ever made..
great article. sums up my feelings basically. I really like the idea of Blizzard releasing a higher graphic version of Starcraft, that would keep it relevant
First I wanna say that BW has an amazing proscene in Korea and I hope it never dies. I think a lot of what you have to say is very valid.
That being said, BW has little to no proscene outside Korea, and it never will have one. This is because the sponsors look at it from an uninformed outsider perspective, see a 12 year old game with shitty graphics and are not impressed. They also think that a 12 year old game will not be popular, and they are right. There is a small, but very devoted core of people outside Korea following the proscene. Sponsors do like devoted followers, because they will tune in week after week, but they don't like small numbers.
Starcraft 2 has a chance of getting much larger then SC1 ever was in the US. Its new, and its shiny so lots of people are playing it. This leads to higher viewer numbers which makes sponsors more interested. More sponsors = bigger prize pools, bigger tournaments, and more advertising for the tournaments which in turn leads to more sponsors.
As for the comments about BW taking more skill, and SC2 being casual, I agree that entering SC2 is much less intimidating. The interface automates a lot of the things you had to do manually in SC1. Even so many people find multiplayer for SC2 very intimidating. I have heard plenty of people say they loved the campaign, and then went online got roflstomped and got turned off from multi-player. So while for someone who has played BW for the past 10 years yeah its a lot easier, but for your average person on the street its still rocket science. For esports I think having the game easier to get into is a good thing. It allows more people to play the game and understand it, and that makes watching it much more entertaining.
As for the pro level I don't think we are anywhere near the skillcap of SC2 yet and there are 2 more expansions to come, so anything could happen. I think this is one place where the "sc2 is a still a baby" comments is actually valid. The game is developing quite rapidly, and we really need to wait to see where it goes, but I know I am already amazed when I watch the finals of SC2 tourneys, and have seen some pretty big innovations in play and amazing micro and Im looking forward to see what is done in the coming years.
tl;dr SC2 has a better chance of making it in the west then BW for many reasons, and I hope BW keeps going strong along side SC2
Very interesting read and some good arguments from most of the posts in this thread so far.
1. In my opinion real sports and e-sports can surely be compared like some of the posters already mentioned. Examples like chess, snooker or darts are good examples to link the requirements of sports and e-sports, to compare the physical efforts of one with mental efforts of the other.
2. My second opinion is, that the existence of SCII doesn't make playing SCI obsolete, because they're two different games. If you look at the case of CS and CS:Source it becomes a bit clearer. Before the release of CS:S, everybody said, that CS is going to die as soon as its successor is going to be released. But that didn't happen. Because after a few months of playing CS:S most of the "switchers" who jumped over from CS to CS:S realized that they weren't able to hold their skill-level as it has been at CS and switched back, after complaining badly about the game, stating that it only requires noob-aiming. However, both games nowadays have their own communities and stabilized as proper e-sport disciplines. That is exactly, what is going to happen with the SCI, WC3 and the new SCII communities. Some people will stay at the new game, some people will change to SCII and back and some people are going to stay at SCI. So that's the way it goes and we should start to see SCII not as a game that is going to replace SCI in terms of e-sport relevance, but rather as a game that is broadening the spectrum of competitive games. SCII will lead to a new community that coexists besides the existing WC3-, SCI and other strategy-game-communities.
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
man i love reading completely uninformed opinions its so fun
Great read. I can't wait for the '10-'11 season for brood war. Even though I haven't actually played more brood war in 3-4 years, I still quite enjoy it from a spectator's perspective. And even though I play sc2 exclusively and enjoy the GSL, the professional SC2 scene is severely lacking on the skill front except at the very top.
Compare that to even lower level proleague matches, where ALL the pros are doing what seems to be super-human feats of timing and multitasking. It will always be exhilarating to watch, from my perspective.
I just hope it doesn't ever lose it's charm for the top players. Playing BW lost it's charm with me ages ago because I sucked at it. I guess I'm pretty casual compared to current BW players. But my love for the e-sport is undying.
EPT
), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
