|
I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005 when I went off to university.
Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum.
Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of competetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad.
|
On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote:
I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005.
Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
The problem with your reasoning is that you've equated "getting back into an established scene" (aka playing on iccup) with "being accessible to casuals". A random basketball player can't just go play in the top gym league in the city, which is essentially what iccup is. That doesn't mean basketball isn't accessible to casuals though.
|
I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
|
On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote:
I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005.
Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum.
Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of cometetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad.
That's a terrible argument, the more developed and established it is, the more legitimate it should be. Just like every other sport.. And the way to play matchups aren't set at all. The vast majority of people will never break C- rank and even then, you can do 4 hatch ling allin ZvP and it works out fine. Or lurker slow drop into fast guardians in ZvT. Until you get to like A-, it really isn't that set in stone.
|
Very well written. Thanks man. My thoughts exactly. Long live BW! (Even though I do enjoy SC2)
|
On September 30 2010 06:37 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote:
I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005.
Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum.
Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of cometetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad. That's a terrible argument, the more developed and established it is, the more legitimate it should be. Just like every other sport.. And the way to play matchups aren't set at all. The vast majority of people will never break C- rank and even then, you can do 4 hatch ling allin ZvP and it works out fine. Or lurker slow drop into fast guardians in ZvT. Until you get to like A-, it really isn't that set in stone.
I'm not really trying to argue anything per se, Im saying that brood war is very legit and currently a lot more deeper than SC2.
I am just trying to show how things look from someone who used to play BW but for one reason or another had to stop playing and sees SC2 as another chance to get back into RTS again and how this sort of mindset will effect BW in the future. As SC2 has a chance to reduce the influx of BW players.
If you are picking something to play would you pick something that is, old, very developed, with a high skill differential.
Or something that is shiny, new, that is still developing, and by hopping it early right now you can have a lead vs being so much behind in BW.
You can see why SC2 is so attractive, especially right now. It allows people who have gotten behind in BW a clean slate. A chance to start over new and be part of the developent.
|
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote:
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant.
That's pretty much what so many people said when WC3 got released, I seriously wish I could find these threads again. Why exactly would BW have been able to grow with WC3 existing, but no longer with SC2? Because SC2 is SC with a 2 at the end, therefore rendering the former one obsolete? I'm not implying this is automatically your point, but sadly that's the way most people think.
There is no more reason for BW to "stay stagnant" now than there was when WC3 got released. Matchups are still evolving at pro level (these days the changing ones are mostly TvZ and ZvZ, and I personally foresee PvT being the next one), and the fans are still showing up in masses (studios looked packed from the beginning to the end of last pro-season). That's exactly what every sport in the world needs to be alive.
|
On September 30 2010 06:45 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 06:37 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On September 30 2010 06:15 Seide wrote:
I love both games. But saying that broodwar is accessible to casuals just like SC2 is just wrong. I played a lot of BW but quit playing a lot of RTS back in 2005.
Even with my former knowledge of the game its intimidating playing again and getting back into an established scene much different from the one I left.
Part of the reason SC2 is hot right now is because its new, and the scene is rapidly evolving. Strategies are fresh and they keep getting better. Every tournament you see better and better strategies from the players, as the game gets refined. This is exciting to be a part of, watching the skill difference between the average player and a great player grow, and you grow with it.
BW currently is not in that state, when you get into it you walk into a very established scene, with set ways to play certain matchups.
How the two games go will only be able to be seen only after a year minimum.
Whether with patches and publicity SC2 can develop the same deep gameplay as BW, or if BW will stay king of cometetive RTS and the esports scene in general.
SC2 right now is also very appealing to the western audience, so much so that the GSL offers english commentary and streams for the viewers. This is something that BW lacks, it remains shut in Korea.
At first glace to someone who didnt grow up playing SC at one point, it is difficult to see the depth and greatness of BW. They see no reason why they should play it over anything else and why it is so great. The BW scene is by no means as open as some of you seem to believe it is.
At least SC2 has brought back some former players (like me) to following the pro scene and back to watching professional BW. So its not all that bad. That's a terrible argument, the more developed and established it is, the more legitimate it should be. Just like every other sport.. And the way to play matchups aren't set at all. The vast majority of people will never break C- rank and even then, you can do 4 hatch ling allin ZvP and it works out fine. Or lurker slow drop into fast guardians in ZvT. Until you get to like A-, it really isn't that set in stone. I'm not really trying to argue anything per se, Im saying that brood war is very legit and currently a lot more deeper than SC2. I am just trying to show how things look from someone who used to play BW but for one reason or another had to stop playing and sees SC2 as another chance to get back into RTS again and how this sort of mindset will effect BW in the future as SC2 has a chance to reduce the influx of BW players. If you are picking something to play would you pick something that is, old, very developed, with a high skill differential already developed. Or something that is shiny, new, that is still developing, and by hopping it early right now you can have a lead vs being so much behind in BW. You can see why SC2 is so attractive, especially right now. It allows people who have gotten behind in BW a clean slate. A chance to start over new and be part of the developent.
Yea fair enough, it's a sad truth that we have to accept. I'm still hoping that sc2 ends up drawing a new crowd to Broodwar and sc2 dies out leaving Broodwar bigger than before
|
On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote:
I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again.
You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
|
Pretty much took the words out of my mouths. Thnx for posting it. 10/10
|
On September 30 2010 07:09 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote:
I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again. You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension.
Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you.
Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
|
Just throwing out my stance on ideas comparing the updates to other sports on sc2 as being an update to brood war, i think thats pretty different. SC2 is really a whole new game not an update, other than all the lore and things like that they're really different.
That said though, i think keeping sports updated is great and it'd be awesome if blizzard still cared about updating brood war. If they released a "brood war 1.5" that had all the great observer features of sc2, lan latency and anti-hack built in across the board, 12 player slots, maybe some new built in computer AIs, replays that you could rewind and never glitched, i would be extremely happy.
And i think those are more valid comparisons to updates in other sports (improved baseballs in baseball, etc). And other things like improved rackets, shoes, swim suits (those controversial ones used in the olympics that make you glide farther or whatever) are closer to having a special awesome progamer mouse, keyboard, mousepad, chair, monitor, etc.
And also just putting it out there this is in no way a prediction of what will happen with brood war. And while the whole thing is true about sponsors spending a lot of money making tournaments for sc2 and supporting it in ways that brood war can't compete with, the only reason that happens is because they sponsor the thing that they think people want to see the most. And they think (right or wrong, probably right) that most of the community cares more about SC2 then it does about Brood War. But if that wasn't the case there would definitely still be sponsors for brood war tournaments. You need to realize that the community's interest is what dictates the sponsors it isn't the other way around. Yes i understand it can be a little bit of a catch-22 but its incredibly easy to overcome if we want to overcome it.
Also BW is definitely accessible to the public and amateurs, there could easily be high school and college Brood War teams (CSL anybody?) like there are chess teams and basketball teams. (mix of intellectual difficulty and live action packed atmosphere albeit not in the same way as basketball but its still comparable). Yes it sounds crazy but that should never factor in to your mind, at one point in time black kids and white kids going to the same school seemed crazy to everyone. Yes the culture isn't very ready to embrace it, but then again does our culture really embrace chess teams? I realize this isn't going to happen but its easily possible if the interest was there. But you have to believe that and know how much power we have as the consumers if you want to get anywhere with it.
Brood war doesn't HAVE to be replaced "because its the natural order of things", and if it is replaced its because the community as vast vast majority either wants it to happen or doesn't care if it happens or not (in which case it will because blizzard wants it to happen). Also all of this doesn't apply to the shitty legal authority blizzard has over things ofc they could shut the game down like they're trying to with proleague. But that probably wont happen. Shit now i'm kind of getting off topic in my own thread this really has more to do with the other thread i made oh well...
|
On September 30 2010 07:26 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 07:09 palexhur wrote:On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote:
I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again. You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension. Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you. Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population.
Sorry, I dont want to be harsh, how old are you? seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population, I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 but that is not what you mean I suposse, it is great that you bought a TL shirt , but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont.
|
For the record pokebunny and i are the same age lolol
|
On September 30 2010 07:45 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 07:26 Pokebunny wrote:On September 30 2010 07:09 palexhur wrote:On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote:
I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again. You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension. Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you. Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population. Sorry, I dont want to be harsh, how old are you? seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population, I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 but that is not what you mean I suposse, it is great that you bought a TL shirt , but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont.
"but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont."
"Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea."
Your question was answered.
"seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population"
"I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 "
You answered your own question.
What more answers do you want? SC2 is right now more appealing in Europe and North America. In population Europe + North America > Korea = SC2 appeals to larger population.
The difference is though, is that in Korea BW is highly regarded as a general spectator sport, whereas outside of Korea, it is not.
|
Wow, you made a lot of good points. I like this post.
|
On September 30 2010 07:45 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 07:26 Pokebunny wrote:On September 30 2010 07:09 palexhur wrote:On September 30 2010 06:32 Pokebunny wrote:
I disagree.
I'm as much of a brood war nostalgia lover as anyone. I loved the brood war days, played thousands of games on ICCup, made thousands of posts here about brood war. I hope that you won't read this post and think "ugh another kid who loves shiny graphics".
I believe SC2 will and must replace brood war as far as foreign eSports, and frankly at this point, Korea as well. Quite simply, when there's a sequel with a better game engine and graphics, especially one with the name brand of the best eSport of all time, sponsors will flock to it. They already have. We're seeing nearly as many foreign tournaments with prizes in six months than we did in nearly twelve years in brood war, outside of Korea.
Brood war can no longer grow with SC2 existing. Assuming SC2's ultimate success, which is so far turning out well even with all the flaws, the best brood war can do is stay stagnant. Brood war will no longer draw in new players. While your point is well made and completely logical, it's just not how the world works. Sports live in a world driven by media. Baseball introduced balls that carry better when hit to keep people interested. Scandals are given more attention than success. Is SC2 a "better game"? In my opinion, yes, but you can't arbitrarily define "better" as more competitive and having a higher skill cap. The more money, the more fame, the larger community = better in the world of eSports. The way the brood war community is will never catch on outside of Korea. Korea succeeds because of the fact that everyone sees the players as idols, sees them as real people. We see each other as internet personalities, even the top players. We don't know half their real names until they make it big. In Korea, it's part of the social culture. It can't catch on until it's accessible to the public, which brood war will never be.
This was a poorly structured post, and I mainly just wrote whatever came into my mind. I've often longed for the days before we worried about SC2, because really, neither of them are as enjoyable to me anymore. Last night I had a conversation with a friend I met at a SC2 LAN, and I brought him through some of the events of the brood war era teamliquid, thinking back about all the greatness that once was. I wish it could exist again, but we'll never see this greatness again. You take many tournies in SC2 as a pro-scene, get real, right now and in several years from here there is not going to be any pro-scene in any RTS game outside Korea, I think this is the issue that people is mixing, of course if you want a game for casuals gamers and have fun and earn some money until a new one appears then you are going to play SC2 and going for all the process that the sequels of any classic RTS game has gone (in the foreign scene), but if you want to see pro-gramers in a pro-scenario and a pro-organization, then you only way to go right now is SC:BW Korea, if you know something about markets and consumers you would know that the key in this subject is viewers and right now SC2 is not nearly appealing to Korean spectators as is BW, I am telling you this because some people and you infer this in some lines, think that a big push of money makes a pro-scene and fyi it is not, you can make a US2 million tourney and if dont get enough viewers of your show then you couldnt get your bussines established and being succesful in a long run, I however admit that a RTS game being playing in a pro level for more than 15 years would be a strange miracle so of course BW is going to die sometime (even if it is the best all time RTS), the real question is if by its grounds SC2 could take the place, and right now it cant, even if Gretech and Blizz are making a big money push. In conclusion e-sports related to SC is too complex for a foreigner like me or most of us to explain, because it is a culture thing and it goes beyond our logic comprehension. Brood war appeals to a niche market everywhere but Korea. You can't really argue about the Korean scene unless you live in Korea, where it's directly relevant to you. Viewers will be higher for SC2 because the game appeals to a larger population. Sorry, I dont want to be harsh, how old are you? seriously give me a real,serious and constructive explanation of why SC2 appeals to a larger population, I understand that almost every RTS gamer in the foreign scene is playing SC2 but that is not what you mean I suposse, it is great that you bought a TL shirt , but you really see in any EU country or in US a TV channel broadcasting SC2 every day with little girls screaming about their favorite players and asking for autographs?, because I dont.
The only thing we've had in recent times that compares to IEM or MLG is WCG. We'll end up having four of those events combined in about three months after MLG DC and IEM New York.
I'm not comparing SC2 to the korean scene, I'm comparing the SC2 scene to the BW scene.
Even GSL - while it is in korea, it still is an open tournament with quite large prizes.
It should be obvious that SC2 appeals to more people outside of korea. Just look at the TL forum numbers before and after. I've talked to literally dozens of people at school and from other areas of real life about SC2 in passing. Sure they aren't the hardcore fans, but the hardcore fans aren't what makes a game widespread. I've talked to maybe 2-3 people that actually played brood war on a regular basis.
|
I don't want to bring my age into this because I've been playing and following brood war for as long as many people have here. As far as what I know about marketing, what makes an eSport yea, I might not have perfect knowledge there, but I feel like I have enough to base an opinion on.
If you must know, I'm 15, high school sophomore in New York City.
|
You should consider playing SC2 before writing a giant wall of text saying it's just a fun game that can never become an esport.
SC2 will become greater than broodwar and you people just don't want to let go of your nostalgic feelings, I think you are too old for the gaming world.
Try and find a really old game of starcraft before broodwar and you'll see it's nothing compared to the game it is now, SC2 will be the same.
|
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved. ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game. + Show Spoiler + ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is being a rock star. + Show Spoiler +ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
so true (and lovely pics ^^)
If you guys rlly think its esport when some tournaments are played and sponsors randomly throw money at it ur totally wrong.
wait 3 4 years till blizzard will announce Wc4 or another RTS and iam so damn sure SCII will go down so fast. like i said in some threads already SCII will be just another "good" RTS until the next good one comes out and then its gone.
and stop kidding urself that u will see real esports in the west for hm like the next 10-20 years. until people like "us" are "old" and accept it...
but yeah SCII is awesome right now every stupid sponsor is throwing money at it and is hosting random tournaments WOHO. thats esports YES.
the kid above me... rlly? :D who would have thought games these days with 10 years + of High level RTS play are better then back in the days ! WOW !.
btw i never found someone who told me why SCII is better then SC:BW Oo
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/9XQZm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/0t7WU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Nx8J1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/eCuVn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/1dccw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rFtp0.gif)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/pMw7e.gif)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rkYG4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/C5aVC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/fGv3k.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/pgNLS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yovYs.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/P3QM4.jpg)
