EPTWhen are Roaches the best answer?
Besides the 5RR, are there any other decent Roach openers that would not constitute as all-in?
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 4
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Mastadon6900
United States46 Posts
When are Roaches the best answer? Besides the 5RR, are there any other decent Roach openers that would not constitute as all-in? | ||
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inTheMood
Norway128 Posts
I was practicing against my T brother and he went a marauder/hellion timing attack before my spire finished, and holy cow how strong that was. I KNOW my scouting was bad that game, but what should I look for and how should I react against this build? (Or am I just not good enough, and this build isn't really something to worry about?) | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:29 Confuse wrote: I have a lot of trouble multitasking; microing an army in a battle at the same time as building more units. I feel like zerg are very fragile, and if i look away from a battle for even a moment against a terran or protoss death ball when i look back everything's gone without a mark on the opposing forces, wheras if I do micro my forces, I might come out ahead but my macro suffers to the point where I can't meet the next army incoming with enough forces. I feel like zerg have the most to worry about position wise and macro wise (spawn larvae) which is why I am having this dilemma. Question: Do you have any tips for multitasking? (Short question with long synopsis : P) You can cast spawn larvae through the minimap, as long as you've got enough mouse finesse to click on the blotch that matches the hatchery. It still requires you to focus away from micro, but you can at least see the battle this way. | ||
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Competent
United States406 Posts
Keep in mind this is the initial 1st/2nd push that comes early with a 4 gate consisting of sentry/zealot/stalkers. | ||
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Dennizz
1 Post
i have another problem with bio terrans, if i scout mass marines+medivacs, i go for mass banelings: but if i cant finish it off after the first crash, the just mix in more marauders and even if i stay speedling heavy, i seem to have lost against stimming and micro'ed biopack. i've just lost against this a few times in a row: the moment i am out of advantage i cant hold off the massive reinforcing bio-push due to a lack of larva... any advices? http://rapidshare.com/files/420354701/biopack_lose.SC2Replay.html | ||
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Mastadon6900
United States46 Posts
I am a 600pt Platinum Zerg Player. | ||
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Orion_2kTC
United States80 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 21 2010 23:00 Mastadon6900 wrote: How effective/feasible would a Roach Nydus strategy be? I am a 600pt Platinum Zerg Player. Feasible if not terribly effective at around 1100 Diamond for ZvZ (maybe for ZvP as well) on maps with large mains. The basic BO is fast roaches to block ramp, very fast lair, double gas on lair so you get a quick nydus (and around 15 roaches). Then drop the nydus and run in. It works if the opponent went for some form of fast muta or expand as he will then have scouts in front of your base and often not have much of an army. If it is in any way scouted, you are way behind because the nydus becomes essentially useless and you are behind on army and tech (and possibly expands). I loved that Check vs Justfake game, that is how I have been playing ZvT (though I go for the speedling into 21 expand then 3rd in base because I am paranoid). It's impressive how much a mass of upgraded lings can hurt. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On September 21 2010 23:00 Mastadon6900 wrote: Nydus strategy in general is either extremely all-in where if you fail, you lose(such as making a large army really fast and try to get a nydus up in their main) or it's simply a late game tactical tool for moving around the map easier or to expand on islands. How effective/feasible would a Roach Nydus strategy be? I am a 600pt Platinum Zerg Player. In general I would strongly advice against trying to base your strategy around nydus worms. They are a nice option to keep in mind, but not something to rely completely on. | ||
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hEndO
United States124 Posts
Tl;Dr When scout 2-3 rax can i just ling baneling? are roaches necessary? And when thrown down the bane nest? | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 21 2010 22:20 Competent wrote: Protoss 4 gate, with open expos like xel naga, metal, and Desert O. I know 3-4 spines and lings are the answer to hold them off but on those maps the nat is so open they simple walk around then spines and if I spead them out they simple choose to take on 2 instead of 4. Should I make 6-7 spines on larger spawns? Or do I need to tech to a faster unit comp. Keep in mind this is the initial 1st/2nd push that comes early with a 4 gate consisting of sentry/zealot/stalkers. You may want to get roaches depending on zealot numbers. The key is to time your ling attack when he gets in range of several spines (your lings should be out on the map and attacking the rear, cutting off a retreat). Usually I make 4 spines on those maps positioned to cover the ramp (and sometimes block it with the spines). I have a question: is very early ling speed any use against protoss ? I have been going for roaches then ling speed (something akin to a 5 RR for roach timing with ling speed delayed and the expand before roaches). This is because speedlings are terrible against zealots and not necessary until there are a fair few stalkers (roaches and spine crawlers deal with stalkers fine defensively as stalkers need to kite roaches). So by delaying the speedlings and getting earlier roaches I have had fewer problems vP, especially on the maps requiring more mobile defense. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 21 2010 12:46 AnAngryDingo wrote: with the zealot build time nerf coming, what are your thoughts and opening with 15 hatch/14 pool against protoss? against terran? Against Terran, it's extremely hard to defend against early reaper play with a hatch pool before gas build because of the lack of zergling speed. Especially early on, if I'm not mistaken, there's a timing before your roach warren finishes where he has 3-5 speed reapers in your base that can do pretty much whatever they want. You might be able to pull it off if you are super diligent about spreading creep and you rush roach speed, but it would be extremely hard. Also, hatch first loses outright to bunker shenanigans with something like 8rax reaper. Against Protoss, I'm not sure what a 5 second build time nerf to zealots would do with respect to early rushes. It's probably just the functional equivalent of making all of the maps a little bit bigger. If they are proxying the gates, you'll still probably lose the hatch anyways. I can imagine more people trying out hatch first against Protoss, though, and if it works, that's great. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 21 2010 12:47 Half wrote: Hmm.. Ok, I have a question. I'm playing at 800 Diamond. I think I could reasonably be at 1k+ but I don't have a lot of time right now, with a 300+ bonus pool. Though my mechanics are admittedly shit. Often I do incredibly risky strategies like 14pool14hatch against terran, and have very little difficulty fending off timing pushes through good scouting. I'm able to execute this build with a good success rate, and I use it far more often then "safe" openings. Even versus toss I expand as early as 16. Rarely do I ever play builds which call for hatches after 20 supply, though that seems to be the standard at higher levels. My question is, is my successful execution of this build something I can reasonably expect at the 1200+ ratings, or is it just because I play noobs? Or is it still viable at higher levels, only standard 21 hatch builds are "safer", and less vulnerable, and 14hatch/16hatch/18hatch builds are still workable. Obviously, they would still be a LOT more vulnerable, but are they still workable, or is trying a similar build at a high rating just suicide for your rating? And if it is viable, though very vulnerable to certain forms of harassment or timing pushes, what would be the circumstances where you would recommend very early expansions? The only reason 21 hatch builds are "safer" is that you get them after you start ling speed, meaning you can defend reapers and have some control against a 2gating Protoss player. Besides that, they are probably less safe than an early hatch build because the hatch finishes later, meaning you get a later creep spread from the hatch, so you can't defend the nat with crawlers (or a queen/roach on creep against zealots) as quickly. From my experience, if a Terran scouts a pool/hatch or hatch/pool expand with no speed, he can easily switch to mass reapers and make your life a living hell, so I never do that against Terran. I tend to go pool/hatch against a Protoss who I scout isn't going 2gate on close positions (Steppes/close ground LT/Meta). DarKFoRcE talked about the disadvantages of this on the previous page, and I will address them some more later. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 21 2010 13:56 nanoscorp wrote: Mid-Plat here (lol) working on figuring out larvae/queen/mineral use between 15-25 supply. Been having pretty good success with something like: ZvP 14p 14extractor 3 on gas til 100, 2 off til I figure out what to build later 15 ov 16 drone queen 19 drone 20 ling 21 ling 22 drone hatch 22 drone 23 ov queen at 2nd hatch queen goes for larvae at main, second queen pops out a creep tumor, then it's pretty much speedlings from there until I jump on whatever the opponent sends out. Watching my replays though, this feels weak to an early push. Platinum protoss 2-gate opened with 5-7 zealots vs my scouts, basically. Didn't send them, but it feels like it would have hurt. Build wasn't exactly as outlined above, but it is close. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/84899-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands edit: if you do watch it, pause at 5:05 and check armies and income. What if I see an opponent actually using that superior early army for pressure? Spines? Retreat and keep spawning zerglings until the push is stuffable? Send in both queens? tl;dr: what's a generally safe balance of drones to lings early? Against 2gate, you kind of have to pump lings when your pool finishes. Make sure you have an at least 4:1 ratio of lings to zealots (which means pump lings for a long time). If he does a zealot attack, you should be able to easily crush it and be ahead (pump drones to make up for lost economy). If he tries to take his expansion before warpgate off of 2 gate zeal/sentry, you can easily kill it with roach/ling. If he tries to transition into 1base play, drone up, then play as you normally would. Sorry I don't have more specific answers. Playing against 2gate is something you have to do by feel, and it depends on what he's doing with his zealots. | ||
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SimpleHarmonicMotion
Sweden187 Posts
http://rapidshare.com/files/420363617/I_m_really_bad.SC2Replay I'm a 1000 point diamond zerg but I lose to terran players who are a lot "worse" than me. (Half my apm and no scouting, lol) The above replay is a prime example of how my ZvT plays out. I scout him and see what he builds and try to figure out the proper response. It usually ends out wrong. (And with me typing a bitter comment + leaving the game.) If someone could just post a few comments on the above replay (it's not long, about 15 minutes) I'd be one happy zerg noob. Thanks in advance! <3 | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 21 2010 14:03 Sixes wrote: First of all thank you Saracen for both the thread and the information already provided. My own credentials are a measly 1100 diamond so take anything I say for what it's worth. Notably at 1100 diamond speedlings just destroy reapers because of the control it takes to do perfect reaper micro vs speedlings while still macroing. Now I would like Saracen's take on three related topics: early upgraded speedlings, mass speedlings and in base hatcheries. The early upgrade to speedlings (which has come under the Dimaga build title) has been working absolute wonders for me both against toss and against terrans. A basic BO would be along the lines of: - 14 pool - 14 gas - 15/16 OL then queen - 1 set lings - speed at 100 gas - at around 40-50 gas after, make evo - get +1 attack or armor asap then remove drones Expand goes down around 20 (might be a slight delay on the second queen). Against toss its +1 attack unless I see forge, against Terran I go +1 armor then +1 attack right after. This means that for some of the delayed pushes I have 1/1 speedlings and banelings and they do marvelously (as do 0/1 roaches if I get them). I was actually completely astonished by what a good number of upgraded lings will do to any early terran push (you need roaches for mass hellions though). As for the thor discussion, I have the same problem (me and every other zerg player) and the best I have found is ling/bling. The banelings have the wonderful advantage of scattering or killing marines and hellions (and doing some damage to thors) as well as annihilating any scvs. Once the lings (upgraded of course) get a good surround it's bye bye expensive thors. This brings me to my third point, in base hatcheries. I use them almost every vP and vT game but it could be my macro is falling behind ... On the other hand it could also be my uncontrollable love for speedlings in very very large numbers. I have found at least 1 in base hatchery (and extra queen) allows me to spawn a ton of lings if I need to (and if I don't I just have tons of larvae ready for when I do). I have found the ability to instantly produce over 60 lings to be very nice as they can get to wherever a big fight happened and are enough to clean up what is left (the opponent can almost never reinforce that much that fast). It also solves problems I have seen even Haypro have where Zerg sits on 2-3k minerals in the mid to late game. Anyways, as I said, 1100 Diamond and looking for input/criticism of these ideas, thanks. Everyone opens with speed nowadays. However, a super fast +1 on the lings is a really weird idea. I kind of like it since I tend to favor speedling play (unless I'm playing against HuK). The problem I see, though, is that you're going to delay your economy by mining that extra 100 or 150 gas early, and the upgrade might not finish in time for certain 1base attacks. But I really don't know how it plays out in-game, so maybe it works, which would be pretty neat. I always get a 2nd hatch in base unless I'm going hydra/roach (which I never do anymore). Actually, I think a lot of Zergs do this. It just helps with my macro so much, and it's absolutely necessary if you're doing a ling build. I used to even build a second queen in the main so I had 3hatch/3queen production, but that's going a little overboard if you can get all your larva spits. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2939 Posts
On September 21 2010 23:40 SimpleHarmonicMotion wrote: Hi! I was wondering if someone could help me with my ZvT. http://rapidshare.com/files/420363617/I_m_really_bad.SC2Replay I'm a 1000 point diamond zerg but I lose to terran players who are a lot "worse" than me. (Half my apm and no scouting, lol) The above replay is a prime example of how my ZvT plays out. I scout him and see what he builds and try to figure out the proper response. It usually ends out wrong. (And with me typing a bitter comment + leaving the game.) If someone could just post a few comments on the above replay (it's not long, about 15 minutes) I'd be one happy zerg noob. Thanks in advance! <3 Please don't use rapidshare or general filesharing sites for replays. Its just a headache waiting for the download to start. Use one of these sites: http://sc2rep.net/ http://www.sc2rep.com/ http://sc2.replayers.com/ On September 21 2010 23:46 Saracen wrote: Everyone opens with speed nowadays. However, a super fast +1 on the lings is a really weird idea. I kind of like it since I tend to favor speedling play (unless I'm playing against HuK). The problem I see, though, is that you're going to delay your economy by mining that extra 100 or 150 gas early, and the upgrade might not finish in time for certain 1base attacks. But I really don't know how it plays out in-game, so maybe it works, which would be pretty neat. I always get a 2nd hatch in base unless I'm going hydra/roach (which I never do anymore). Actually, I think a lot of Zergs do this. It just helps with my macro so much, and it's absolutely necessary if you're doing a ling build. I used to even build a second queen in the main so I had 3hatch/3queen production, but that's going a little overboard if you can get all your larva spits. Dimaga has been using +1 speedlings in ZvP for a while. Really awesome, mobile opening that I've taken to using in pretty much 100% of my ZvPs. Replays of Dimaga: vs. Huk on Scrap Station - http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1817 vs. WhiteRa on Scrap Station - http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1426 | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:19 Meff wrote: What tactic would you employ against a FEing protoss? (if the specific flavour of the FE matters, think of it as forge FE on Lost Temple) I've had some success with skipping 'ling speed and delaying my own expo so as to be able to put pressure with a hydra-heavy roach-hydra composition, but it only happened a couple of times and I can't quite decide whether the build is solid or I just won thanks to mistakes from my opponents. The nice thing about Protoss FE is that he lets you do whatever you want to for a good 9 minutes early game. That means you can drone up to 2 base saturation uncontested, and you can do this incredibly fast. Just be sure to constantly produce overlords (1 overlord per pair of spawn larva spits) since you will be hitting your supply limit faster than you're used to. However, if I were CatZ or Dimaga or Cella, I would probably stop droning at around 20-26 and either try to baneling bust or nydus with roach/ling.  | ||
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MrBitter
United States2939 Posts
On September 21 2010 23:21 hEndO wrote: when i run up the ramp and scout 2 rax (or even 3) do you other zergs find it necessary to get a roach warren? or is ling/b-ling enough to deal with infantry? Also, when should i put down the baneling nest? Immediatly? My biggest problem is the right timing on the buildings. I often put them down to early and it hurts my eco i think. Thanks in advance! Tl;Dr When scout 2-3 rax can i just ling baneling? are roaches necessary? And when thrown down the bane nest? Baneling is enough. I tend to avoid roaches against bio plays since marauders chew them up so quickly. Baneling nest should go down sooner than later. This is more dependent on how big his army is when you figure out what he's up to. Also, don't be afraid to add some spines at your nat. This buys you time to set up the surround that you're going to need to land your banes. | ||
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Oshara
United States1 Post
As Z I rarely drone scout or sac an OL. I probably watch ~40% of my replays and can truly say I can't recall watching a replay and thinking that if I had some extra early recon the outcome would have changed. On most maps my OL gets to the opponent's mineral line at a good time for me to judge their opening off their gas use, and can react based off that recon. I generally spend some minerals for an extra queen and some spines at my natural. I make 4 zerglings and generally no more units until ~40+ food (later if I can manage!), but make it a point to control towers. Towers + queens + spines buy me plenty of time to field a good defense by the time any early aggression gets to me. Generally after pushing back the first army I have 8-12 muties, which I feel I have great control over, and provide me all the mid-late game recon I need. I can macro up easily while harassing and can usually spend 80% of my attention on the Muties, usually taking expansions 3 and 4 while my opponent is scrambling to deal with them. By the time they can deal with the Muties I either have a huge mass of them (25+) if I think I can win with them + lings, or have transitioned to BLs / Ultras. I feel my play is pretty liquid and I can change my strat as needed depending on what my opponent is doing (early cheese, reaper / banshee harass, quick void rays alter my play the most, but I can deal fairly well with any). Long post for a quick question - if I don't feel I have problems from early pressure, should I force myself to get into the habit of drone scouting / saccing an OL? I know consensus is that I’m retarded for this but my strats are mostly around mid game where I can put those Muties to work or counterattack after failed aggression or as slow armies march to me. Zerg has so few units that I never feel I’m not prepared to deal with aggression with 1-2 larva cycles. Thanks again and sorry my post is so long! | ||
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