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On March 07 2013 07:42 Bargeman wrote:Ok so my macro is pretty darned good as a gold league player, in this game I am Zerg vs a Terran player completely owning him in economy but theres just one thing. I cannot for the life of me defeat his army, no matter how much i try I cannot. I tried the best combo vs biomech, broodlords, cracklings, ultralisks, banelings, infestors, and he still TORE THROUGH ME. I dont understand and this is getting to be very frustrating as it is happening in most terran matchups I have. Here is a replay: http://drop.sc/309296
Be careful going for brood lords + ultralisks at the same time - generally, a zerg player will make switches between them, however these switches are COMPLETE switches (to make the unit composition most effective).
Also remember that, versus bio/mech, as the broodlord/infestor player you shouldnt' feel a sense of urgency. Just cut off bases, and defend versus drops. Keep tabs on your opponent though - if you see a raven/viking transition coming, a sense of urgency should be established to cut off your opponent's economy.
I would also recommend working on your control - some units just run into the fight without needing to be. Keep in mind that prepositioning before the fight takes place helps a lot as well.
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On March 07 2013 10:36 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 10:29 Azoryen wrote:
I'm trying to make sense of the opening possibilities in ZvZ.
Let's say we resume builds as:
1) early pool
2) pool+gas before hatch
3) pool > hatch > gas
4) hatch first
4) loses against 1) and only slightly ahead against 2) and 3), so doesn't seem to be worth the risk
1) wins against 4) and puts you very behind against 2) and 3), so also not worth it
So my main question is: what about 2) and 3)? Which does best overall?
3) seems to be slightly more economical. But in a 2) vs 3) situation, because 2) gets much faster speed and that could be enough to balance or even put you ahead most of the times (I believe I've heard Tang say this).
Also, which s better against 1) and 4)?
Thanks for any input.
Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063 - should answer a lot of Qs about initial BOs (note: Build orders at the very least still work for HOTS)
Just did.
Very good stuff there, but unfortunately my option 2) (pool + gas before hatch) is not discussed. I think it would be great if you could include that in your guide since it's a very common build.
I'd still appreciate opinons on how a build like 14pool/14gas compares to 14pool/15hatch regarding the range of opposing builds.
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On March 07 2013 10:45 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 10:36 Glon wrote:On March 07 2013 10:29 Azoryen wrote:
I'm trying to make sense of the opening possibilities in ZvZ.
Let's say we resume builds as:
1) early pool
2) pool+gas before hatch
3) pool > hatch > gas
4) hatch first
4) loses against 1) and only slightly ahead against 2) and 3), so doesn't seem to be worth the risk
1) wins against 4) and puts you very behind against 2) and 3), so also not worth it
So my main question is: what about 2) and 3)? Which does best overall?
3) seems to be slightly more economical. But in a 2) vs 3) situation, because 2) gets much faster speed and that could be enough to balance or even put you ahead most of the times (I believe I've heard Tang say this).
Also, which s better against 1) and 4)?
Thanks for any input.
Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063 - should answer a lot of Qs about initial BOs (note: Build orders at the very least still work for HOTS) Just did. Very good stuff there, but unfortunately my option 2) (pool + gas before hatch) is not discussed. I think it would be great if you could include that in your guide since it's a very common build. I'd still appreciate opinons on how a build like 14pool/14gas compares to 14pool/15hatch regarding the range of opposing builds.
Pool + Gas is not a common build - it is almost always used for cheesy builds/coinflip zergling all ins. While yes, these are valuable, they do not make a player better (or at least not at the same rate as "standard" builds).
I do not discuss 14/14 b/c they aren't "standard." for the reasons ^
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On March 07 2013 10:45 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 10:36 Glon wrote:On March 07 2013 10:29 Azoryen wrote:
I'm trying to make sense of the opening possibilities in ZvZ.
Let's say we resume builds as:
1) early pool
2) pool+gas before hatch
3) pool > hatch > gas
4) hatch first
4) loses against 1) and only slightly ahead against 2) and 3), so doesn't seem to be worth the risk
1) wins against 4) and puts you very behind against 2) and 3), so also not worth it
So my main question is: what about 2) and 3)? Which does best overall?
3) seems to be slightly more economical. But in a 2) vs 3) situation, because 2) gets much faster speed and that could be enough to balance or even put you ahead most of the times (I believe I've heard Tang say this).
Also, which s better against 1) and 4)?
Thanks for any input.
Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063 - should answer a lot of Qs about initial BOs (note: Build orders at the very least still work for HOTS) Just did. Very good stuff there, but unfortunately my option 2) (pool + gas before hatch) is not discussed. I think it would be great if you could include that in your guide since it's a very common build. I'd still appreciate opinons on how a build like 14pool/14gas compares to 14pool/15hatch regarding the range of opposing builds.
Never heard of 14 pool 14 gas.
14/14/21 used to be standard until people realized that 15p/16h/17g can hold every all in and be WAY ahead of a 14/14 macro opener. I mean you get faster speed...but at a cost of a few drones and a hatchery about a minute later, which is a LOT of lost larvae. Pool-gas-hatch seems like an inefficient middle ground - you don't have enough minerals to spend your larvae, and your speed is too fast to be of any use. No point in having super fast speed if you can't make any lings for it, is there?
I just go 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord+queen, 17 gas. I can hold anything if I play right, and the economy is about the same as hatch first. Basically, you're either ahead or even with EVERY other opener. It's standard and should be.
I only see 14/14 when they're going to speedling all in...I haven't seen it in a pro game in ages. As a macro opener it's too far behind gasless expands, and at higher levels speedling floods just don't work.
Hope this clarifies things
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On March 07 2013 10:55 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 10:45 Azoryen wrote:On March 07 2013 10:36 Glon wrote:On March 07 2013 10:29 Azoryen wrote:
I'm trying to make sense of the opening possibilities in ZvZ.
Let's say we resume builds as:
1) early pool
2) pool+gas before hatch
3) pool > hatch > gas
4) hatch first
4) loses against 1) and only slightly ahead against 2) and 3), so doesn't seem to be worth the risk
1) wins against 4) and puts you very behind against 2) and 3), so also not worth it
So my main question is: what about 2) and 3)? Which does best overall?
3) seems to be slightly more economical. But in a 2) vs 3) situation, because 2) gets much faster speed and that could be enough to balance or even put you ahead most of the times (I believe I've heard Tang say this).
Also, which s better against 1) and 4)?
Thanks for any input.
Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063 - should answer a lot of Qs about initial BOs (note: Build orders at the very least still work for HOTS) Just did. Very good stuff there, but unfortunately my option 2) (pool + gas before hatch) is not discussed. I think it would be great if you could include that in your guide since it's a very common build. I'd still appreciate opinons on how a build like 14pool/14gas compares to 14pool/15hatch regarding the range of opposing builds. Never heard of 14 pool 14 gas. 14/14/21 used to be standard until people realized that 15p/16h/17g can hold every all in and be WAY ahead of a 14/14 macro opener. I mean you get faster speed...but at a cost of a few drones and a hatchery about a minute later, which is a LOT of lost larvae. Pool-gas-hatch seems like an inefficient middle ground - you don't have enough minerals to spend your larvae, and your speed is too fast to be of any use. No point in having super fast speed if you can't make any lings for it, is there? I just go 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord+queen, 17 gas. I can hold anything if I play right, and the economy is about the same as hatch first. Basically, you're either ahead or even with EVERY other opener. It's standard and should be. I only see 14/14 when they're going to speedling all in...I haven't seen it in a pro game in ages. As a macro opener it's too far behind gasless expands, and at higher levels speedling floods just don't work. Hope this clarifies things
14 pool/14 gas followed with 15 hatchery is a pretty popular coinflip ZvZ all in.
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On March 07 2013 10:55 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 10:45 Azoryen wrote:On March 07 2013 10:36 Glon wrote:On March 07 2013 10:29 Azoryen wrote:
I'm trying to make sense of the opening possibilities in ZvZ.
Let's say we resume builds as:
1) early pool
2) pool+gas before hatch
3) pool > hatch > gas
4) hatch first
4) loses against 1) and only slightly ahead against 2) and 3), so doesn't seem to be worth the risk
1) wins against 4) and puts you very behind against 2) and 3), so also not worth it
So my main question is: what about 2) and 3)? Which does best overall?
3) seems to be slightly more economical. But in a 2) vs 3) situation, because 2) gets much faster speed and that could be enough to balance or even put you ahead most of the times (I believe I've heard Tang say this).
Also, which s better against 1) and 4)?
Thanks for any input.
Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063 - should answer a lot of Qs about initial BOs (note: Build orders at the very least still work for HOTS) Just did. Very good stuff there, but unfortunately my option 2) (pool + gas before hatch) is not discussed. I think it would be great if you could include that in your guide since it's a very common build. I'd still appreciate opinons on how a build like 14pool/14gas compares to 14pool/15hatch regarding the range of opposing builds. Never heard of 14 pool 14 gas.
Just checked Tang build. It's actually 15pool/15gas/17hatch, so a more economical pool>gas>hatch.
What I find interesting is that he claims that his build gives him a significant edge over 15pool/15hatch. I'm sure he doesn't mean immediate economical edge, but rather an edge because of the pressure he can put with a much earlier speed, which can translate to an easy win or enough eco damage to put him ahead anyway.
Check his comments @ 2:20
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/327399304
Note: The only build that he thinks leaves him slightly behind is hatch first, because of earlier spine and speed than pool first.
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On March 07 2013 11:37 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 10:55 Mavvie wrote:On March 07 2013 10:45 Azoryen wrote:On March 07 2013 10:36 Glon wrote:On March 07 2013 10:29 Azoryen wrote:
I'm trying to make sense of the opening possibilities in ZvZ.
Let's say we resume builds as:
1) early pool
2) pool+gas before hatch
3) pool > hatch > gas
4) hatch first
4) loses against 1) and only slightly ahead against 2) and 3), so doesn't seem to be worth the risk
1) wins against 4) and puts you very behind against 2) and 3), so also not worth it
So my main question is: what about 2) and 3)? Which does best overall?
3) seems to be slightly more economical. But in a 2) vs 3) situation, because 2) gets much faster speed and that could be enough to balance or even put you ahead most of the times (I believe I've heard Tang say this).
Also, which s better against 1) and 4)?
Thanks for any input.
Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063 - should answer a lot of Qs about initial BOs (note: Build orders at the very least still work for HOTS) Just did. Very good stuff there, but unfortunately my option 2) (pool + gas before hatch) is not discussed. I think it would be great if you could include that in your guide since it's a very common build. I'd still appreciate opinons on how a build like 14pool/14gas compares to 14pool/15hatch regarding the range of opposing builds. Never heard of 14 pool 14 gas. 14/14/21 used to be standard until people realized that 15p/16h/17g can hold every all in and be WAY ahead of a 14/14 macro opener. I mean you get faster speed...but at a cost of a few drones and a hatchery about a minute later, which is a LOT of lost larvae. Pool-gas-hatch seems like an inefficient middle ground - you don't have enough minerals to spend your larvae, and your speed is too fast to be of any use. No point in having super fast speed if you can't make any lings for it, is there? I just go 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord+queen, 17 gas. I can hold anything if I play right, and the economy is about the same as hatch first. Basically, you're either ahead or even with EVERY other opener. It's standard and should be. I only see 14/14 when they're going to speedling all in...I haven't seen it in a pro game in ages. As a macro opener it's too far behind gasless expands, and at higher levels speedling floods just don't work. Hope this clarifies things 14 pool/14 gas followed with 15 hatchery is a pretty popular coinflip ZvZ all in.
Yes of course. If you can scout their main gas timing then you can get a spine up and be fine. Otherwise you sort of die because it looks like a gas less expand.
About 15p/15g/17h...it's better for being aggressive. For that reason alone I wouldn't recommend it to someone trying to improve. Later speed = more minerals = more drones, even if you have to get a spine or 3rd queen. It's a matter of personal preference. I mean I don't really give a shit about you having faster speed because you aren't getting anywhere near my workers. I'll have 2 queens on the ramp, a spine, and 4 banelings if I see a Speedling allin. Most of the time I hold all ins is without getting speed at all. You only need speed if 1) you want to be aggressive, or 2) you screwed up and his lings are dancing around your main.
So yeah it's totally up to you whether you want to play defensively and be ahead if you play it right, or aggressive and be really relying on your opponent's mistakes and your micro to win.
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in this article:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Glon's_Guide_to_Zerg_vs._Terran
its a zvt build, says to get your first gas at 17 but when do you take your second geyser? in what order do you take your geysers? say you just wanted to get met boost with your first hundred and than at 150 gas get 1 1 and than after that get lair, when would you get your second geyser? or do you get it before you start lair and 1 1 upgrades?
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On March 08 2013 06:13 obis wrote:in this article: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Glon's_Guide_to_Zerg_vs._Terranits a zvt build, says to get your first gas at 17 but when do you take your second geyser? in what order do you take your geysers? say you just wanted to get met boost with your first hundred and than at 150 gas get 1 1 and than after that get lair, when would you get your second geyser? or do you get it before you start lair and 1 1 upgrades?
If you want to go for 1/1 after speed, I would suggest taking 2 geisers after your first set of queens finish. I'm not sure why this wasn't included - sorry - but take 2 gases after your first 2 queens pop (build a total of 4), and start mining. Get:
-Speed
-1/1
-Lair
This is a common build either to do a 1/1 roach + speed timing (in which case you'd get ranged) or just to go either muta or infestor but with fast ups. Take a third as minerals allow
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thank's Glon, i will do that.
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are you saying instead of taking your first geyser at 17 to instead get two geysers? as you would do if in zvp? like the two gas at 6 minutes? what supply would be best to take the two geysers or do you base it on situation?
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On March 08 2013 08:49 obis wrote:
are you saying instead of taking your first geyser at 17 to instead get two geysers? as you would do if in zvp? like the two gas at 6 minutes? what supply would be best to take the two geysers or do you base it on situation?
It all depends on what you want to do. For a basic tech build (ie speed --> lair), then 17 gas will do it for you. For what he is attempting to do, 2 gasses after first set of queens pop will be more beneficial.
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i was wondering if after i get my first gas at 17 if when should i get my second one? i have heard from people to grab your 2nd geyser when you start lair and when your lair is half way finished to get the other 2, i am preferring to stay on 2 bases. i just want to learn a standard build i can use in zvp and zvt.
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As a Bronze Zerg player what should I focus on? Can someone give me an opening for each match up?
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On March 08 2013 11:47 BatTheMan wrote:
As a Bronze Zerg player what should I focus on? Can someone give me an opening for each match up?
I think you should focus on injects and larva spending.
I recommend this practice: play many games vs easy AI where all you do is:
- create a pool, 3 hatches and a queen for each hatch
- focus on injecting and using your larva as soon as possible to make units
- you can saturate your 3 bases with 16 drones in each base, then make lings only until you get to 200/200
Don't worry about gases or any other structures, this is only an exercise to improve your mechanics.
Once you are able to do this without much lost time, you should notice a big improvement in your injects / larva spending
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On March 08 2013 12:22 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 11:47 BatTheMan wrote:
As a Bronze Zerg player what should I focus on? Can someone give me an opening for each match up? I think you should focus on injects and larva spending. I recommend this practice: play many games vs easy AI where all you do is: - create a pool, 3 hatches and a queen for each hatch - focus on injecting and using your larva as soon as possible to make units - you can saturate your 3 bases with 16 drones in each base, then make lings only until you get to 200/200 Don't worry about gases or any other structures, this is only an exercise to improve your mechanics. Once you are able to do this without much lost time, you should notice a big improvement in your injects / larva spending
How do I hotkey my Queens?
All on the same # or a different # for each of them?
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Hey everyone, I'm wondering how I should decide on whether to go mutas or infestors. This season I've just always gone 3 base muta, but I feel like I rack up a lot of unnecessary losses, or losses that could have been avoided by choosing infestors.
The way I see it is:
Mutas:
Pros:
-get to be very aggressive and mobile
-deny drops
-kill terran with a 2/2 speedbane timing
-win if your opponent forgot turrets
Cons:
-weak once terran reaches critical mass
-very late infestors
-lack of AoE other than banelings (lots of gas spent)
-takes a LOT of micro and positioning to trade remotely evenly
Infestors:
Pros:
-demolish any terran push with ease
-burrowed infestor harass is really good
-transitions really easily into hive
-can survive on a lower drone count, so more army supply
-faster 3/3 to hit some hive timings
Cons:
-passive
-zzzzzzzzzzz
-very hard to engage a sieged up tank like because the infestors die really fast to the long range siege tanks
-relies more on your opponent's lack of micro than your excelling micro
so, how should I choose between the two? I used to always go infestors, but every GSL ZvT is mutalisks so I tried them out this season and feel like it's not as strong as infestors...but surely there's a reason korean zergs don't go infestors?
thanks in advance for any clarification!
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On March 08 2013 12:40 BatTheMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 12:22 Azoryen wrote:On March 08 2013 11:47 BatTheMan wrote:
As a Bronze Zerg player what should I focus on? Can someone give me an opening for each match up? I think you should focus on injects and larva spending. I recommend this practice: play many games vs easy AI where all you do is: - create a pool, 3 hatches and a queen for each hatch - focus on injecting and using your larva as soon as possible to make units - you can saturate your 3 bases with 16 drones in each base, then make lings only until you get to 200/200 Don't worry about gases or any other structures, this is only an exercise to improve your mechanics. Once you are able to do this without much lost time, you should notice a big improvement in your injects / larva spending How do I hotkey my Queens? All on the same # or a different # for each of them?
There's no right way to do it, whatever works best for you. Try a few methods and see what you prefer.
I personally hotkey them together and inject like this: queens#>inject key>hold shift>use camera hotkeys to cycle through bases and left-click each hatch. Its a long wording, but its one of the fastest methods with practice.
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On March 08 2013 13:11 Mavvie wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm wondering how I should decide on whether to go mutas or infestors. This season I've just always gone 3 base muta, but I feel like I rack up a lot of unnecessary losses, or losses that could have been avoided by choosing infestors.
The way I see it is:
Mutas:
Pros:
-get to be very aggressive and mobile
-deny drops
-kill terran with a 2/2 speedbane timing
-win if your opponent forgot turrets
Cons:
-weak once terran reaches critical mass
-very late infestors
-lack of AoE other than banelings (lots of gas spent)
-takes a LOT of micro and positioning to trade remotely evenly
Infestors:
Pros:
-demolish any terran push with ease
-burrowed infestor harass is really good
-transitions really easily into hive
-can survive on a lower drone count, so more army supply
-faster 3/3 to hit some hive timings
Cons:
-passive
-zzzzzzzzzzz
-very hard to engage a sieged up tank like because the infestors die really fast to the long range siege tanks
-relies more on your opponent's lack of micro than your excelling micro
so, how should I choose between the two? I used to always go infestors, but every GSL ZvT is mutalisks so I tried them out this season and feel like it's not as strong as infestors...but surely there's a reason korean zergs don't go infestors?
thanks in advance for any clarification!
I have the exact same thing. I've been playing more and more with mutas lately, but I feel like I lose a lot of games due to this, and having infestors would make things much easier. Transitioning to hive is a lot tougher, because you don't have infestors yet. Infestors bored me though, and with mutas being buffed in HotS I wanted to learn how to play with them better.
I think on some maps mutas are good, and some aren't. For example, ZvT, cloud kingdom - mutas suck here. You can't do a 2/2/1 attack because they just wall off their third with supply depots and chill behind it with tanks and stuff. On maps like antiga it works a lot better though, because you can poke into their main more easily and their army will be more spread, and not behind a wall (most of the time).
So yeah. If you feel like your positional play is good, and don't want to deal with drops, go mutas. Also depends on the map, like I said.
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On March 08 2013 19:01 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 13:11 Mavvie wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm wondering how I should decide on whether to go mutas or infestors. This season I've just always gone 3 base muta, but I feel like I rack up a lot of unnecessary losses, or losses that could have been avoided by choosing infestors.
The way I see it is:
Mutas:
Pros:
-get to be very aggressive and mobile
-deny drops
-kill terran with a 2/2 speedbane timing
-win if your opponent forgot turrets
Cons:
-weak once terran reaches critical mass
-very late infestors
-lack of AoE other than banelings (lots of gas spent)
-takes a LOT of micro and positioning to trade remotely evenly
Infestors:
Pros:
-demolish any terran push with ease
-burrowed infestor harass is really good
-transitions really easily into hive
-can survive on a lower drone count, so more army supply
-faster 3/3 to hit some hive timings
Cons:
-passive
-zzzzzzzzzzz
-very hard to engage a sieged up tank like because the infestors die really fast to the long range siege tanks
-relies more on your opponent's lack of micro than your excelling micro
so, how should I choose between the two? I used to always go infestors, but every GSL ZvT is mutalisks so I tried them out this season and feel like it's not as strong as infestors...but surely there's a reason korean zergs don't go infestors?
thanks in advance for any clarification! I have the exact same thing. I've been playing more and more with mutas lately, but I feel like I lose a lot of games due to this, and having infestors would make things much easier. Transitioning to hive is a lot tougher, because you don't have infestors yet. Infestors bored me though, and with mutas being buffed in HotS I wanted to learn how to play with them better. I think on some maps mutas are good, and some aren't. For example, ZvT, cloud kingdom - mutas suck here. You can't do a 2/2/1 attack because they just wall off their third with supply depots and chill behind it with tanks and stuff. On maps like antiga it works a lot better though, because you can poke into their main more easily and their army will be more spread, and not behind a wall (most of the time). So yeah. If you feel like your positional play is good, and don't want to deal with drops, go mutas. Also depends on the map, like I said.
Sorry to pop in as a lower league, but I'd really like to know opinion about whether it's bad to go for both mutas and infestors. What I mean is to have only a few of each type in your army. I do this and usually end my games with very nice trades. Fungal is still amazing vs T, but doesn't justify having as much infestor supply as before, more like a support spell now. And a few also discourage drops, induce turrets, etc. I love how in the end of engagements fungal can hold those medivacs for mutas to clean them up. Killing medivacs makes a big difference in that unit lost tab. Also, with both units, drops become too risky for them. Any reason why this should fail in the masters league?
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EPT
