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+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2010 11:34 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 10:59 numLoCK wrote:
atm liquipedia and such seem to have very limited information on build orders.
Can you hook me up with a basic build order for ZvT and the basic variations and scouting timings for say, mass reaper and for 3rax? Or actually, just basic variations and scouting timings for whatever
that terran is up too would be great. I'm glad you're switching to Z  So what I do is: 14 gas 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen, take drones off of gas, research speed 1 pair of zerglings 21 expand 22 overlord all drones with the first spawn larva 26 queen, put drones back on gas get lair once the queen finishes poop one tumor with that queen and send it over to the natural roach warren when I get the money for it baneling's nest if I think they are doing some 1base allin attack I still sort of fudge gas timings (the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th geysers) which is pretty bad, so I can't tell you anything about that. I'm going to make a conscious effort to establish some solid timings, though! As for scouting: If it's on a map like Lost Temple or Delta Quadrant, I'll try to send an early drone to steal their gas so they can't do any cliff bullshit (or it will be significantly delayed). Otherwise, I send a later drone (maybe 14 or 15) to check how fast their first barracks is. It will also check for a fast tech lab on the barracks (which means reapers 99% of the time). The first overlord goes some roundabout way to the back of their base so it doesn't get sniped by marines. The second one goes to the natural to scout bunker shenanigans. After killing the scout SCV, the first lings go up their ramp to check on marine production and the barracks addon. Also, most Ts will build a factory close to the barracks if they are doing hellion play, so it checks for that as well. Finally, it checks for a second CC. I like to start sending the overlord in at around 30 supply if I'm still not sure what they're doing. If it turns out that they are doing a 1base attack, I'll stop droning at around 26-30 drones and make pure lings/roaches/banelings. Banelings are necessary in case he brings his SCVs and/or he has lots of marines. So here's a little recap versus standard rax timings: Your ling/drone sees rax with no addons: - your opponent probably sucks and is gonna try some stupid mass marine or mass marine/marauder + SCV allin - get banelings - alternatively he could be rushing banshees or something Your ling/drone sees rax with fast tech lab no factory: - reapers (I'll write more about these little buggers later) - can transition into 1rax reaper -> anything, 3rax reaper expand, or 5rax reaper, always send your overlord in to see what he's doing and adjust accordingly - against 3 or more rax from a reaper opponent, it's very possible that he switches to a marine/reaper/marauder/(SCV) allin, so get a lot of shit, spread your creep, and get some banelings if you see him stopping reaper production in favor of marines Your ling/drone sees rax with later tech lab (this means the rax and fac will switch so the fac will have the tech lab) and a factory and constant marine pump: - either marine/tank or marine/hellion - roach/ling with a nice surround works against both Your ling/drone sees rax with later tech lab and a factory and no marine pump: - probably either an igniter hellion drop or fast banshee build. - against igniter hellions, spreading overlords around your base is key, as well as spreading creep off of that first tumor - always watch the minimap - banshees are covered below Your ling/drone sees a rax with a reactor and a factory and no marine pump: - reactor hellion expand - drone up and get 2 crawlers at your natural - alternatively, he could be hiding rax in the back for a marauder/hellion/(thor) attack - not much you can do besides get a lot of shit (roach/ling or try to rush mutas behind some crawlers) Your ling/drone sees a rax with a reactor and a factory and constant marine pump: - marine/hellion attack - speedlings should do just fine if he attacks early. If he waits for a critical mass of hellions, you need roaches or something, but by then your crawlers should be up anyways so it shouldn't really matter... For ANY of these builds, you ALWAYS want to send in that overlord at around 30 supply so you can check if he decided to take a faster gas and go banshee or a medivac for drops or take a slower gas and get his expo. Against banshees, get a spire ASAP and build more queens. Banshees take ages to build in comparison to queens.
someone needs to put this in liquipedia!
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@mrbitter thanks.
Maybe the most important thing for me is to not panic. When i panic and tilt i make lings and A-move. lol
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On September 21 2010 11:40 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 11:00 RC_Fixer wrote:
Noob 1000 Diamond Over here you know what I strongly believe there is a "slight" imbalance in ZvT showing how many of the tournaments of high level play there arent many Zerg in the finals. Then again its just my opinion. Now for the my question of the thread...
It seems that some games the enemy Terran will Mass Thors to a certain number in a situation like this what would you do assuming you have Lair Tech, Etc. Or is it simply im Noob and not suppose to allow numbers to grow that big? What if he adds hellions to the mix? That is all sorry for so many questions
Either way thanks if you respond and go Zerg! So, popular to contrary belief, it's actually very easy to mass thors of of 2 rax with tech labs. There's really nothing you can do against this, especially if he gets fast upgrades and has another reactor factory or two for hellions. I honestly don't know what to do against mass thors. One thing I do know, though, is that magic box mutas are NOT the answer. Zelniq says he's been having some success with mass roach as long as you can focus down the thors. I don't think this is the way to go since 1. they are extremely supply-ineffective against Terran, meaning a 200/200 hellion/thor army will squash a 200/200 roach army (and yes, Terran CAN get 200/200 hellion/thor off of 2 base) 2. a few tanks will make the roaches pretty useless. Right now, I'm playing around with roach -> infestor -> fast hive + brood lords as well as nydus play. Unfortunately, nydus play is map dependent. It's worth mentioning that against thors, upgrades are SUPER important. Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 11:02 mOnion wrote:i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met. take advantage of this while you can + Show Spoiler +can you get huk to do this too? ;____; Thanks momo. I will get HuK in on this once you hook me up with your sister. 
Have you ever messed around with getting a corrupter or two to help your roaches outdamage the repairing scvs? Also, I think getting 7-8 hydras to add some solid DPS is worth it as long as you can keep the hellions away.
Also, what do you think of dimaga's neo-BW style ZvP? He delays his gas for a while making a quick 3rd expo and 3rd queen in response to a fast expo while defending with roach/ling on hatchery tech. I've seen him do it in a few replays but the only one I can find now is the one where Huk waits until he's maxed and then steamrolls.
Also, when you are trying mass muta w/ ups vs that thor/hellion/marine bullshit, is it even worth it to make zerglings due to the abundant hellions with blueflame, or should I just dump the extra mins into sunks for some extra DPS if he's stubborn enough to attack? Lately I've still been making the lings with my extra mins/larvae, and just trying to hide them to use for a backstab once he's committed to moving out. Thoughts?
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On September 21 2010 11:25 cerebralz wrote:
I've been having better success vs terran lately. there are 3 rushes that i'm at a loss how to stop though, if i do my standard "safe" build. (14 gas, 14 pool speed expand with 2 queens)
1) All in 4 rax pure rine with stim
Of course i need your standard roach/ling/bling mix to counter this, but the timing comes before i can get baneling speed and enough roaches to tank. Without roach speed and bling speed i constantly get kited until i run out of steam.
2) Delayed reaper/marine/Marauder push
Off of 4 rax 2 reapers, 5 marines, 4 marauders with stim again this comes before i can get bling speed and roach speed. I've tried pure speedling but without perfect micro the marauders tank like crazy while the reapers/marines pick off everything.
3) Vs. Protoss forge contain
idk if i have to just consider taking a drone to patrol the bottom of the ramp so this doesn't happen. once it does though, you have to drop 1-2 spines to make sure you don't get all out cannoned, and then you are so behind. I've tried nydus into double expo but even then your production is so behind the P can do pretty much anything and win.
1) You won't get baneling speed in time. Just try to spread your creep far enough beyond your nat so that he has to run a long way to start kiting you. If possible, try to get a speedling surround. Just make sure you make enough banelings (note that each roach you make means pretty much 1 less baneling). I personally wouldn't get any roaches.
2) Even if you surround, you still have to fudge with the lings a bit so that they're not hitting the marauders. You will lose if your lings start attacking the marauders. Make sure to hit to marines and reapers. To be honest, though, it sounds like you're just not making enough lings. Maybe you're being too greedy with drones?
3) Don't let it happen to you lol. That's all I can say. Always scout the Protoss early enough so that you can see whether he goes forge first. If you see a forge, immediately bring a drone or two to the bottom of your ramp on hold position. If he does manage to place the pylons + cannon, though, what you have a few choices, depending on what he's doing.
If he's taking his expansion, you can either try a nydus allin or a speedling/baneling bust. I don't know the specifics so you might want to ask Dimaga (or CatZ) about this, but... Start droning to ~26, get a second hatchery in your main and take your second gas. You want to get your tech as fast as possible because timing is everything. Then just mass speedling/baneling or speedling/roach if you decide to go nydus and hope he sucks.
If he's doing a 1base warpgate followup, get a 2nd hatch, drone up to 26-30, get your lair, then mass hydra/ling. Wait for him to attack you. You should be able to destroy his pure gateway army (hopefully). Then, he'll probably try taking his nat while teching to colossus, so you want to expand as well while adding roaches and corruptors.
I really hate playing against this strategy, so I just don't let it happen to me...
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On September 21 2010 11:31 Zvendetta wrote:
I recently saw a replay where a terran player did a thor hellion push with scvs repairing against a very high level zerg. There were even siege tanks in the mix (3). Amidst the army composition, i am wary of calling "imbalanced," but it seemed that even though there were tons of roaches, the zerg player couldn't out dps the repair. A healthy mix of thors, hellions, and tanks, just exactly what can overcome this rolling death machine?
Unfortunately, there is no pre-hive army that is either cost-effective or supply-effective against this composition. If he has too little thors, mass upgraded mutas can beat this army, as well as good harass (i.e. if he tries to move out, you start killing all his depots/factories with your 40+ mutas). However, if he is thor-heavy, there's not much you can do. Tanks are amazing at shutting down infestor play.
Here is one replay where I manage to beat such a composition with a pure pre-hive composition:
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Saracen/Replays/ZvT_infinity_091110.sc2replay
Unfortunately, I have lost against this strategy 10x more than I have beaten it. To be honest, I don't really think the Terran even needs tanks, just thor/hellion. If the rush distance is long enough, it might be possible to nydus in his base RIGHT when he tries to move out to kill reinforcements/depots/factories, but this is extremely map-dependent and if you don't nydus soon enough, it won't work.
You can also try (fast) teching to hive. I personally don't like brood lords because vikings destroy them so badly, but you can't deny that they're very good against thors. As for ultralisks, their 70 second build time makes them less than optimal and they die extremely quickly to mass thors, but I'm thinking maybe super fast ultralisks with some ling/roach/baneling support might work against a 200/200 mech attack, though it would get destroyed by a nice timing attack that hits in the ~2 minute time it takes to get the ultralisks out after hive is done. Maybe add in a few brood lords as well?
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On September 21 2010 11:56 raybasto wrote:
Against Toss, what is the best way to fend off 4 gate pressure and survive till the late game. It seems like if I open Hydras/Ling/Spines, they fast expand and switch to 2 gate Robo in which I am unable to defend long enough to get Ultra/Ling (Whether its because of lack of harass or over commiting to Hydra/Roach). If I open Muta/Ling, they keep the 4 gate pressure until my defenses finally break.
This is what I do against 4gate:
14 pool
15 hatch
15 queen/overlord
- when that queen finishes, build another queen, take your gas, and spit larva at the main then movie it to your nat (you might want to take your gas slightly earlier)
- drone to 32 supply, then MASS lings - build nothing but lings/overlords
- take a drone off of gas whenever you have the 100 gas for speed
- I have been able to beat 4gate with exclusively lings, but you might want to add roaches or banelings if you're feeling uncomfortable, like maybe he's going heavy zeal/sentry or something
- try to engage him as soon as speed finishes because you don't want his gateway ball to grow too large, and you don't want him to have too many force fields
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On September 21 2010 12:21 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 11:56 raybasto wrote:
Against Toss, what is the best way to fend off 4 gate pressure and survive till the late game. It seems like if I open Hydras/Ling/Spines, they fast expand and switch to 2 gate Robo in which I am unable to defend long enough to get Ultra/Ling (Whether its because of lack of harass or over commiting to Hydra/Roach). If I open Muta/Ling, they keep the 4 gate pressure until my defenses finally break. This is what I do against 4gate: 14 pool 15 hatch 15 queen/overlord - when that queen finishes, build another queen, take your gas, and spit larva at the main then movie it to your nat (you might want to take your gas slightly earlier) - drone to 32 supply, then MASS lings - build nothing but lings/overlords - take a drone off of gas whenever you have the 100 gas for speed - I have been able to beat 4gate with exclusively lings, but you might want to add roaches or banelings if you're feeling uncomfortable, like maybe he's going heavy zeal/sentry or something - try to engage him as soon as speed finishes because you don't want his gateway ball to grow too large, and you don't want him to have too many force fields
Definitely going to second this. Mass ling rocks any early 4 gate.
But you have to be very mindful of a toss who scouts your ling numbers and just continues to mass... When this happens, you have to tech. Dimaga goes straight to ultras - something I do as well, and really, really like.
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On September 21 2010 12:01 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 11:40 Saracen wrote:On September 21 2010 11:00 RC_Fixer wrote:
Noob 1000 Diamond Over here you know what I strongly believe there is a "slight" imbalance in ZvT showing how many of the tournaments of high level play there arent many Zerg in the finals. Then again its just my opinion. Now for the my question of the thread...
It seems that some games the enemy Terran will Mass Thors to a certain number in a situation like this what would you do assuming you have Lair Tech, Etc. Or is it simply im Noob and not suppose to allow numbers to grow that big? What if he adds hellions to the mix? That is all sorry for so many questions
Either way thanks if you respond and go Zerg! So, popular to contrary belief, it's actually very easy to mass thors of of 2 rax with tech labs. There's really nothing you can do against this, especially if he gets fast upgrades and has another reactor factory or two for hellions. I honestly don't know what to do against mass thors. One thing I do know, though, is that magic box mutas are NOT the answer. Zelniq says he's been having some success with mass roach as long as you can focus down the thors. I don't think this is the way to go since 1. they are extremely supply-ineffective against Terran, meaning a 200/200 hellion/thor army will squash a 200/200 roach army (and yes, Terran CAN get 200/200 hellion/thor off of 2 base) 2. a few tanks will make the roaches pretty useless. Right now, I'm playing around with roach -> infestor -> fast hive + brood lords as well as nydus play. Unfortunately, nydus play is map dependent. It's worth mentioning that against thors, upgrades are SUPER important. On September 21 2010 11:02 mOnion wrote:i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met. take advantage of this while you can + Show Spoiler +can you get huk to do this too? ;____; Thanks momo. I will get HuK in on this once you hook me up with your sister. Have you ever messed around with getting a corrupter or two to help your roaches outdamage the repairing scvs? Also, I think getting 7-8 hydras to add some solid DPS is worth it as long as you can keep the hellions away. Also, what do you think of dimaga's neo-BW style ZvP? He delays his gas for a while making a quick 3rd expo and 3rd queen in response to a fast expo while defending with roach/ling on hatchery tech. I've seen him do it in a few replays but the only one I can find now is the one where Huk waits until he's maxed and then steamrolls. Also, when you are trying mass muta w/ ups vs that thor/hellion/marine bullshit, is it even worth it to make zerglings due to the abundant hellions with blueflame, or should I just dump the extra mins into sunks for some extra DPS if he's stubborn enough to attack? Lately I've still been making the lings with my extra mins/larvae, and just trying to hide them to use for a backstab once he's committed to moving out. Thoughts?
No I haven't, because I'm super biased against corrupters since I miss my scourge so much  Maybe I'll try adding 2-3 early and let them build up on energy. I'm thinking speed banelings do pretty well against the hellion wall though, and they also splash onto repairing SCVs.
That's interesting. Seems legit. I'll have to try it myself before theorycrafting about it...
Crawlers die incredibly fast, though. I really dislike building them. Try getting more banelings against marine/hellion/thor with roaches to tank. Ling backstabs are also incredibly good because Terran's natural is surprising weak if he doesn't have tanks camped there. Especially if you can run the lings into his production facilities and stop reinforcements. Maybe I'll try that as well
EDIT: Okay, I'm done for today...
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with the zealot build time nerf coming, what are your thoughts and opening with 15 hatch/14 pool against protoss?
against terran?
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Hmm.. Ok, I have a question. I'm playing at 800 Diamond. I think I could reasonably be at 1k+ but I don't have a lot of time right now, with a 300+ bonus pool. Though my mechanics are admittedly shit.
Often I do incredibly risky strategies like 14pool14hatch against terran, and have very little difficulty fending off timing pushes through good scouting. I'm able to execute this build with a good success rate, and I use it far more often then "safe" openings. Even versus toss I expand as early as 16. Rarely do I ever play builds which call for hatches after 20 supply, though that seems to be the standard at higher levels.
My question is, is my successful execution of this build something I can reasonably expect at the 1200+ ratings, or is it just because I play noobs? Or is it still viable at higher levels, only standard 21 hatch builds are "safer", and less vulnerable, and 14hatch/16hatch/18hatch builds are still workable. Obviously, they would still be a LOT more vulnerable, but are they still workable, or is trying a similar build at a high rating just suicide for your rating?
And if it is viable, though very vulnerable to certain forms of harassment or timing pushes, what would be the circumstances where you would recommend very early expansions?
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On September 21 2010 12:47 Half wrote:
Hmm.. Ok, I have a question. I'm 800 Diamond. (not enough time to play :p).
Often I do incredibly risky strategies like 14pool14hatch against terran, and have very little difficulty fending off timing pushes through good scouting. I'm able to execute this build with a good success rate, and I use it far more often then "safe" openings. Even versus toss I expand as early as 16. Rarely do I ever play builds which call for hatches after 20 supply, though that seems to be the standard at higher levels.
My question is, is my successful execution of this build something I can reasonably expect at the 1200+ ratings, or is it just because I play noobs? Or is it still viable at higher levels, only standard 21 hatch builds are "safer", and less vulnerable, and 14hatch/16hatch/18hatch builds are still workable.
Man, you know the answer to this question already...
Early hatch builds are great when you can get away with them. As you go higher and higher on ladder, players are going to get better and better at both scouting, and punishing such greedy openings.
That said, with the zealot nerf incoming, you might be able to find continued success with this vP.
Against Terran, though, especially with the popularity of early reapers, and 3 rax pushes, I can't imagine this working out to your favor.
On September 21 2010 12:46 AnAngryDingo wrote:
with the zealot build time nerf coming, what are your thoughts and opening with 15 hatch/14 pool against protoss?
against terran?
^^ See above.
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Man, you know the answer to this question already...
Early hatch builds are great when you can get away with them. As you go higher and higher on ladder, players are going to get better and better at both scouting, and punishing such greedy openings.
That said, with the zealot nerf incoming, you might be able to find continued success with this vP.
Against Terran, though, especially with the popularity of early reapers, and 3 rax pushes, I can't imagine this working out to your favor.
Eh, your right, I did know the answer. Obviously they would become increasingly harder to pull off as you come across better players. And while I currently can fend off reaper rushes even with 14pool/14hatch, I doubt I would be as successful once terran players learned how to micro properly instead of suiciding reapers on a frequent basis :/.
Perhaps I'd like to rephrase that. I guess what I was looking for was experience. From your experience, is there any situation at 1200+ ratings where zerg could safely expand before the 18ish mark? Or is it basically just another cheese once you get to higher ladder levels with low chance of success unless your opponent screws up badly.
The reason why I ask is because if the build was completely nonviable, i'll probably stop expanding so early in anticipation of not being able to, to get a little bit extra practice.
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15 Hatch has been rather safe for me at 1000, though I usually 5 Roach Rush anyway. I'm approaching 1200 though, so I'm expecting it to stop working now. 14 pool 14 hatch should be safe even further, though I have no idea when it'll stop being that way.
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On September 21 2010 12:59 Half wrote:Show nested quote +Man, you know the answer to this question already...
Early hatch builds are great when you can get away with them. As you go higher and higher on ladder, players are going to get better and better at both scouting, and punishing such greedy openings.
That said, with the zealot nerf incoming, you might be able to find continued success with this vP.
Against Terran, though, especially with the popularity of early reapers, and 3 rax pushes, I can't imagine this working out to your favor. Eh, your right, I did know the answer. Obviously they would become increasingly harder to pull off as you come across better players. And while I currently can fend off reaper rushes even with 14pool/14hatch, I doubt I would be as successful once terran players learned how to micro properly instead of suiciding reapers on a frequent basis :/. Perhaps I'd like to rephrase that. I guess what I was looking for was experience. From your experience, is there any situation at 1200+ ratings where zerg could safely expand before the 18ish mark? Or is it basically just another cheese once you get to higher ladder levels with low chance of success unless your opponent screws up badly. The reason why I ask is because if the build was completely nonviable, i'll probably stop expanding so early in anticipation of not being able to, to get a little bit extra practice.
14 pool, 16 hatch was considered standard before T starting exploiting their strong early game so much. You can still get away with it on maps like Scrap Station, but even at such long distances, you're vulnerable to reapers, and 3 rax pushes.
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Mid-Plat here (lol) working on figuring out larvae/queen/mineral use between 15-25 supply. Been having pretty good success with something like:
ZvP
14p 14extractor 3 on gas til 100, 2 off til I figure out what to build later
15 ov
16 drone
queen
19 drone
20 ling
21 ling
22 drone
hatch
22 drone
23 ov
queen at 2nd hatch
queen goes for larvae at main, second queen pops out a creep tumor, then it's pretty much speedlings from there until I jump on whatever the opponent sends out.
Watching my replays though, this feels weak to an early push. Platinum protoss 2-gate opened with 5-7 zealots vs my scouts, basically. Didn't send them, but it feels like it would have hurt. Build wasn't exactly as outlined above, but it is close.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/84899-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
edit: if you do watch it, pause at 5:05 and check armies and income.
What if I see an opponent actually using that superior early army for pressure? Spines? Retreat and keep spawning zerglings until the push is stuffable? Send in both queens?
tl;dr: what's a generally safe balance of drones to lings early?
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First of all thank you Saracen for both the thread and the information already provided.
My own credentials are a measly 1100 diamond so take anything I say for what it's worth. Notably at 1100 diamond speedlings just destroy reapers because of the control it takes to do perfect reaper micro vs speedlings while still macroing.
Now I would like Saracen's take on three related topics: early upgraded speedlings, mass speedlings and in base hatcheries.
The early upgrade to speedlings (which has come under the Dimaga build title) has been working absolute wonders for me both against toss and against terrans. A basic BO would be along the lines of:
- 14 pool
- 14 gas
- 15/16 OL then queen
- 1 set lings
- speed at 100 gas
- at around 40-50 gas after, make evo
- get +1 attack or armor asap then remove drones
Expand goes down around 20 (might be a slight delay on the second queen).
Against toss its +1 attack unless I see forge, against Terran I go +1 armor then +1 attack right after. This means that for some of the delayed pushes I have 1/1 speedlings and banelings and they do marvelously (as do 0/1 roaches if I get them).
I was actually completely astonished by what a good number of upgraded lings will do to any early terran push (you need roaches for mass hellions though).
As for the thor discussion, I have the same problem (me and every other zerg player) and the best I have found is ling/bling. The banelings have the wonderful advantage of scattering or killing marines and hellions (and doing some damage to thors) as well as annihilating any scvs. Once the lings (upgraded of course) get a good surround it's bye bye expensive thors.
This brings me to my third point, in base hatcheries. I use them almost every vP and vT game but it could be my macro is falling behind ... On the other hand it could also be my uncontrollable love for speedlings in very very large numbers. I have found at least 1 in base hatchery (and extra queen) allows me to spawn a ton of lings if I need to (and if I don't I just have tons of larvae ready for when I do). I have found the ability to instantly produce over 60 lings to be very nice as they can get to wherever a big fight happened and are enough to clean up what is left (the opponent can almost never reinforce that much that fast).
It also solves problems I have seen even Haypro have where Zerg sits on 2-3k minerals in the mid to late game.
Anyways, as I said, 1100 Diamond and looking for input/criticism of these ideas, thanks.
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On September 21 2010 13:56 nanoscorp wrote:Mid-Plat here (lol) working on figuring out larvae/queen/mineral use between 15-25 supply. Been having pretty good success with something like: ZvP 14p 14extractor 3 on gas til 100, 2 off til I figure out what to build later 15 ov 16 drone queen 19 drone 20 ling 21 ling 22 drone hatch 22 drone 23 ov queen at 2nd hatch queen goes for larvae at main, second queen pops out a creep tumor, then it's pretty much speedlings from there until I jump on whatever the opponent sends out. Watching my replays though, this feels weak to an early push. Platinum protoss 2-gate opened with 5-7 zealots vs my scouts, basically. Didn't send them, but it feels like it would have hurt. Build wasn't exactly as outlined above, but it is close. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/84899-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandsedit: if you do watch it, pause at 5:05 and check armies and income. What if I see an opponent actually using that superior early army for pressure? Spines? Retreat and keep spawning zerglings until the push is stuffable? Send in both queens? tl;dr: what's a generally safe balance of drones to lings early?
Against a 2 gating toss, you're going to have to mix in roaches. Scouting becomes supremely important in these games, because if Toss just makes 3 zealots, and then transitions into a pure stalker 4 gate, you can find yourself in a really bad position.
That's taking your question a couple steps further, though.
Short answer: Scout better. Get roaches out to deal with 2 gate. Once you're safe, transition back into your original game plan:
Lings>Lair>Win.
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On September 21 2010 11:02 mOnion wrote:i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met. take advantage of this while you can + Show Spoiler +can you get huk to do this too? ;____;
Agreed, Saracen is one of the main reasons I'm not a complete scrub, his coaching in the CPL until I had to bail (sorry again...) really helped me improve.
Now that I'm struggling to find enough time to play SC2 that I can stay at least semi-competant I need all the help from these kind of threads that I can get.
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Would you recommend switching to Terran or Protoss?
User was banned for this post.
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What tactic would you employ against a FEing protoss? (if the specific flavour of the FE matters, think of it as forge FE on Lost Temple)
I've had some success with skipping 'ling speed and delaying my own expo so as to be able to put pressure with a hydra-heavy roach-hydra composition, but it only happened a couple of times and I can't quite decide whether the build is solid or I just won thanks to mistakes from my opponents.
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EPT
