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United States2186 Posts
The mafia most definitely did not blindly follow me; if they did Meeple and Mystlord would have died too. It's most likely:
a) Their suspicions coincided with mine on Ace and BC
b) They liked my analysis on Ace and BC and did not like it on Meeple/Mystlord
c) Mystlord/Meeple are mafia and the side(s) they weren't on simply didn't target them
Obviously the purpose of the lists was to get them killed. BC I was simply wrong about, Ace I was not sure but he was adding a lot of chaos to the town and not doing much good. Frankly the outcome of the day basically says nothing about my alignment. On the other hand, if you saw 3 reds from 1 family die and 0-1 from another, then you should start getting very suspicious.
If I was on a mafia team and I couldn't hit a single mafia or useful blue I would be uh...very ashamed haha (it's far easier knowing the identity of 9 players). Have you looked at the hitlists of games when I was mafia?
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On February 17 2010 12:33 Ver wrote:
The mafia most definitely did not blindly follow me; if they did Meeple and Mystlord would have died too. It's most likely:
a) Their suspicions coincided with mine on Ace and BC
b) They liked my analysis on Ace and BC and did not like it on Meeple/Mystlord
c) Mystlord/Meeple are mafia and the side(s) they weren't on simply didn't target them
Obviously the purpose of the lists was to get them killed. BC I was simply wrong about, Ace I was not sure but he was adding a lot of chaos to the town and not doing much good. Frankly the outcome of the day basically says nothing about my alignment. On the other hand, if you saw 3 reds from 1 family die and 0-1 from another, then you should start getting very suspicious.
If I was on a mafia team and I couldn't hit a single mafia or useful blue I would be uh...very ashamed haha (it's far easier knowing the identity of 9 players). Have you looked at the hitlists of games when I was mafia?
Am I really that high on your hit list? What do you still doubt?
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Ver I'm a little confused about your intentions at first. Looking back at Day 1 you really pushed for lynching BC, and then a couple of others thought it was a great idea too... so I'll just ask it here
What was your actual intention to putting BC on the chopping block originally? Did you really think posting behavioral comparisons would suggest that he was red? You don't seem like the type of person who would act so strongly based upon that, and we've seen before that we can't trust behavioral analysis (I've stated this numerous times this game, and no one has listened thusfar).
So you posted about BC here on page 14:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2010 10:58 Ver wrote:Time to start things rolling. My primary suspect for the first lynch is Bloodyc0bbler. Obviously he's only posted twice since the game started, an election post and another useless psot. BC runs for election quite a bit. I've taken the liberty of gathering up his previous election campaigns so you can compare them. + Show Spoiler [Chuiu's game 5 as Townie] +On March 17 2009 17:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Ok everyone, unlike the flashy gimicks of caller, I offer substance to my platform!.
to start with heres my portfolio.
Name: BloodyC0bbler
Mafia experience: 5(6 if you count callers as two go's), 1 game run, 1 game co hosted
Looking at just the one stat alone, I have the experience to lead this town to victory!
In mafia 2, I was town aligned and we won, mafia 3 we as town dominated the mafia, mafia 4 was ruined by a jerkoff so well, can't really say much there. Tracils game ended early, but my side was winning. Callers first game ended day one with VI win, and his second game I as VI won.
I have a high precident of winning the games on the side im part of, with ability, and luck like that, I would be an obvious goodluck charm for the town.
Now, witha ll the extra things I do on TL (PX, Location thread, etc...) You guys know I spend way to much time here, giving me the most amount of time to really jump ontop of things, I can analyze clues well which is helpful in your sheriff.
That is my background,
As for what I will do for the town to win.
As sheriff or mayor, I will help guide the town where I can doing what I do best, Analysis. I can analyze clues, behaviour of players and guide us in a winning direction.
As sheriff, I can jail 4 people in a game once per person, this allows me to save potential targets from mafia in a night, or jail the mafia lowering their KP.
As mayor I can guide us towards killing the right suspect, and with a day 1 auto lynch, kill the person who is the most fishy to the town, but in the end, that will come to a consensus among the town first.
Now for a plan.
We all know the town works better when organized, as such, neither mayor nor sheriff can guide this town to victory without being under suspect (we always flip as mayor or sheriff regardless of any other role).
So heres the plan.
Medics protect veteran players early. When one of them takes a hit, the medic should roleclaim to that person AND that person should claim they took a hit. That person then gets checked. They get the medic checked as well. If BOTH check out, they both come out and serve as figureheads for the town. They coordinate blue abilities but keep information on to the town.
When the person is hit they speak up. The sheriff then locks him up, protecting him from night hits while a dt checks him out. Once verified we repeat process with med, and have two figureheads, as opposed to the regular one.
In the event the person who is hit doesnt speak up, the medic speaks up, we verify them first, then the one hit after.
This is our best chance at getting town leadership quickly. On May 16 2009 15:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
OK BOYO'S!
Ok guys, this game will be the hardest one potentially we have ever done, as such we need to get the mafia as soon as this game starts. I've shown a record of insane amount of clue analyzing from previous games, as such I believe I would make a good candidate for the town to keep alive. I however, would prefer to be pardoner, this allows me to help prevent potentially townbreaking lynches.
As mayor, I would analyze the clues (as this is my forte) and bring them to your attention and direct votes on the best possible suspects, thus bringing the town some central leadership to avoid chaos.
As pardoner, I would do generally the same idea, however, would use my ability to prevent lynches on cases where it appeared someone with no links was up for no reason.
Vote for order, vote for BloodyC0bbler
On July 03 2009 07:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
OK first off
I AM RUNNING FOR OFFICE
I am already seeing idiocy of players that has led to many vets getting insanely discouraged with playing these games. I appreciate Plexa for trying to make this game interesting with the addition of different roles, tweaking how some work, and the addition of fog. Now lets outline why I should be in office.
Weather
I'm already seeing debate on weather, and You guys are saying opt for rain? We have two medics, each have an extra life, and they can protect people. Historically medics have sucked more than any other role in the game, IE don't depend on them early game, how hard is this to understand, MEDICS DO NOT WIN GAMES. This instantly gets rid of the damn rain option.
Next we have sunny which allows our assassins to attack. If you guys vote for this I will kill you. EVEN IF they hit a mafia, which we all jump and joy in, there is a chance they hit the godfather, and guess what, this means the godfather role gets given to another mafia and we have to find the damn guy again, way to much effort, so sunny isn't an option we want, also vigi roles aren't always reliable, lynches are where we have to win, so SUNNY is out.
Next we have snow, snow is useful for hey additional clues. Guess what, most of the top clue analyzers from all previous games aren't in this one, IE the amount of people benefiting from these clues is so damn small its not worth voting on, so we ignore snow.
This leaves fog, ie WE SPAM FOG. All greens should be voting fog every day to keep it going. It removes the pledges kp from the mafia. So if there would be at least 1 possibly as high as 3 or 4 pledges. This will reduce a KP from the mafia meaning 1-2 less people die at night. THAT IS A GUARENTEE. Medics are not guarenteed to protect so this is a safer bet. So we spam fog until the pledges are all dead, then move on to a different weather. Also note, with fog reducing the mafia KP, the suicide bomber will be less likely to use his ability as it removes even more kp from them.
Leadership
In most games I have played, I have worked in some way in town circles working for the benefit of the town, many times leading to a win for the town. This gives me the experience to help lead the town and help keep it organized. The towns in the last few games have been reduced to very small voices screaming at a mass of chaos and leads to failure, it has to stop. I would make an excellent choice for the leadership purely based off my experience at keeping some form of order.
Untop of that, for once I am one of a very few in terms of a specific skill. I, as ive said in other games, clue analyze. Out of the current player base of this game, Myself and Pyrr are most likely most known for spending time on clues (there may be one or two people from pyrr's game , but i didnt pay much attention to it). This means either him or myself should have the bg protection purely to keep us alive to use that skill. I will do my best to keep us alive.
Double Lynch
I will make sure we get these used on top mafia targets, IE if we have two insanely guilty looking people, double lynch will be used. We wont have to worry about constantly voting for double lynch one day, then worrying mafia stop it. IT WILL GET USED and by god it will get by the town.
These are merely a few points, but seriously with the debate of what to vote on for weather, A strong player is needed as the emperor or we are all fucked.
Vote for me
but more importantly VOTE FOR FOG On February 14 2010 07:52 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
As the game as begun, it is time to get it started.
I, BloodyC0bbler, am running for the position of mayor.
I believe the town can easily win this if we work together, as a concise unit, and do so before the mafia can create their own plans. Action must happen now. My campaign is on a platform of strength. I believe I have the strength to help pull this town together. I can analyze clues, behaviour, and can help guide blues to where they should act. The more we work together, the less we have to lose. The first lynch at the moment, as there is nothing to really go on, I believe is moot unless someone gives themself away obviously. Therefore I would lynch the most inactive player, or in the case of someone giving themself away, that person. Any other choice should be pardon'd instantly.
Vote for unity, Vote for strength, Vote for bloodyc0bbler Notice the similarities between the two games he was innocent. He comes in with a plan, goes into detail, and gives genuine advice. In his game as a traitor, he offers nothing, says random gibberish, and is basically goofing off. He makes no serious attempt to do anything. Exactly like his campaign post this game. BC is a vet, and has played more games than almost anyone else (I think only Ace and maybe Caller leads him). He's also hosted a bunch of games as well (3). He knows what needs to be done. He knows what a mayor needs, he knows how to act as a townie; negligence is not an excuse. BC is acting very out of character and it's so blatant that it's obvious from just 1 post.
And then on page 21 you were brought up by someone and their tag-along buddy....
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=111913¤tpage=21
On February 14 2010 13:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Ver has been the most sensible so far imo
His accusation of bloodycobbler is based on a change in bc's posting strategy and not the loose and broad clues from Day 1. He's advocating keeping the clues in mind until they become effective later in the game: a reasonable assertion.
I also think we should be using these clues to profile the mafia, rather than starting analytical arguments/trying to accuse anyone already. It seems a bit suspicious that L is already trying to paint Ace red based on the clues when all of the experienced players are saying that using day 1 clues to lynch/accuse is just stupid.
Ace's posting style is a bit arrogant and aggressive for my tastes and I disagree that clues are essentially useless, but his point is fair. Clues, if anything, should be a helping point for our DT's and something used in the late-game
On February 14 2010 13:45 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 13:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Ver has been the most sensible so far imo
His accusation of bloodycobbler is based on a change in bc's posting strategy and not the loose and broad clues from Day 1. He's advocating keeping the clues in mind until they become effective later in the game: a reasonable assertion.
I also think we should be using these clues to profile the mafia, rather than starting analytical arguments/trying to accuse anyone already. It seems a bit suspicious that L is already trying to paint Ace red based on the clues when all of the experienced players are saying that using day 1 clues to lynch/accuse is just stupid.
Ace's posting style is a bit arrogant and aggressive for my tastes and I disagree that clues are essentially useless, but his point is fair. Clues, if anything, should be a helping point for our DT's and something used in the late-game I agree that actually acting on clues should be saved for late-game, but discussing them is helpful all game, as more discussion early game=more paper trail late game
On February 14 2010 14:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
If I were elected, I'd probably lynch Bloodycobbler. The accusations against him are at least based on posting behavior and referenced through other mafia games
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guess my concern/question got answered if I had waited 5 minutes....
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Just a thought...
could the fact that they are 2 people arguing during d3's kill meant that BOTH mafia families went for her?
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United States2186 Posts
Important Point: Mafia usually only give themselves away under pressure. If there is no attention on them, they are not likely to mess up. Thus in order to force mistakes that only mafia can make, you need to press press press them. That is why it is extremely important to not cover up serious accusations but to re-emphasize them and force the accused to respond properly.
To clarify, I went after BC hard to pressure him, not get him lynched (at least initially). I wanted BC in the spotlight so I could analyze his responses and others who responded to it.
It was his responses that made me believe he was mafia, the original accusation made him look suspicious but not guilty. However, I was a) too hasty in looking elsewhere to make the necessary confirmations and b) too much clutter to really get a solid response.
We most definitely can trust behavior analysis but two things are required:
1) The analyst must be good. Lack of activity in the past half year has made my senses rot and I'm hoping to regain them over the course of this game. But how many times are MBH or Qatol wrong about finding roles?
2) The town must aid the analyst in pressuring potential mafia. That most definitely has not been done (maybe if I repeat this 50x people will listen). All this really means is either chiming in on the accusation and making it stick or simply not letting the accused avoid it.
Mafia is a game that requires skill, rarely are mafia handed to us on a platter. Good behavior analysts are few, good clue analysts are also few. Both skills are trustworthy if the user and environment are good enough.
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On February 17 2010 12:55 Ver wrote:
1) The analyst must be good. Lack of activity in the past half year has made my senses rot and I'm hoping to regain them over the course of this game. But how many times are MBH or Qatol wrong about finding roles?
Hmph. Qatol is wrong all the time! Keep it up and these people will think I'm good at this game!
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On February 17 2010 13:16 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 12:55 Ver wrote:
1) The analyst must be good. Lack of activity in the past half year has made my senses rot and I'm hoping to regain them over the course of this game. But how many times are MBH or Qatol wrong about finding roles?
Hmph. Qatol is wrong all the time! Keep it up and these people will think I'm good at this game!
And then you will die day 1 every single time?
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On February 17 2010 13:19 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 13:16 Qatol wrote:On February 17 2010 12:55 Ver wrote:
1) The analyst must be good. Lack of activity in the past half year has made my senses rot and I'm hoping to regain them over the course of this game. But how many times are MBH or Qatol wrong about finding roles?
Hmph. Qatol is wrong all the time! Keep it up and these people will think I'm good at this game! And then you will die day 1 every single time?
I was hoping to buck that trend, thanks.
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United States2186 Posts
On February 17 2010 13:16 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 12:55 Ver wrote:
1) The analyst must be good. Lack of activity in the past half year has made my senses rot and I'm hoping to regain them over the course of this game. But how many times are MBH or Qatol wrong about finding roles?
Hmph. Qatol is wrong all the time! Keep it up and these people will think I'm good at this game!
bahaha go ahead and enjoy the 'benefits' of having a good 'reputation' 
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789 -
Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind,
and fitting the description of the horseman
iaaan -
"Black is the absence of light"
ohN -
"No matter how dark the night, morning always comes, and our journey begins anew."
would fit the clues to ace's murder imo.then at the video at the bottom of his page, it looks like he's setting fire to something. gasoline and a match in the clue.... idk.
Mystlord - "light of my life, fire of my"
has already been covered... but his profile references both light and fire, with his having that person on the rooftop looking down, could possibly be like the killer from the first day.. and then the reference to fire.... even if it IS about a girl... it can still point to him. seems like a stretch to me.
this has been my analysis of only ace's murder.
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On February 17 2010 13:24 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 13:16 Qatol wrote:On February 17 2010 12:55 Ver wrote:
1) The analyst must be good. Lack of activity in the past half year has made my senses rot and I'm hoping to regain them over the course of this game. But how many times are MBH or Qatol wrong about finding roles?
Hmph. Qatol is wrong all the time! Keep it up and these people will think I'm good at this game! bahaha go ahead and enjoy the 'benefits' of having a good 'reputation'
Take it back! I don't want it!
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For easy reference, here are the dead guys' posts (kinda long, so multiple posts needed):
[spoiler]
Ace
+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Ok, the KingPin has arrived. Time to stop this nonsense and get this game started.
First of all, I'm going to be brutally honest here. Some of you playing are newbies. That isn't to say you're bad, but more so that you haven't had the experience of playing a true cut throat game of Mafia. The last 2 games were honestly so bland - aka too much talking about clues, that it wasn't really that much high level strategy going on.
Like Ver said, talking too much about clues early is USELESS. Don't try to convince anyone that someone is Mafia based on clues for the first few days. It's nice to mention it, but do not make it a central point of focus. MTF and Camlito are the best 2 clue analyzers along with Plexa that we ever had. That was in Mafia 2 and it took a ton of planning + input from various people to even come to some of those conclusions. Chances are you won't be able to do much with clues this game unless you've got some additional proof. What I mean by this is catch someone on behavior analysis + clues + shoddy voting or motives. Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this.
I'm running for Mayor of course. But in the event I don't win, my vote is possibly going to Ver. The only reason I might not vote for him is because he has elected to kill BC which is just as bad as L/Zato wanting me dead. Our most valuable players should be saved unless it's blatantly obvious they are Mafia. There are 3 teams this game, don't even bother trying to murder all of our good players so soon.
On February 14 2010 11:58 Ace wrote:
ok, you build that profile ^_^
I'm not an elitist, I'm just honest. Some people can't handle the truth. On February 14 2010 12:06 Ace wrote:
Ok L, try using that the "40% of people are Mafia argument". It doesn't help. Blindly pointing fingers in the chance you may nab someone is just as bad if it were a game where 20% of the people are Mafia. Stop it. You're wrong. On February 14 2010 12:11 Ace wrote:
No, come up with new plans. This entire discussion around whether to use Clues on Day 1 is so revealing already. Like I said it doesn't matter how many Mafia are in the game, using Clues to catch people isn't going to change the fact that they are subjective call outs. See the point now? On February 14 2010 12:16 Ace wrote:
The clues don't point to me because I'm innocent. Did you really think I'd say "yes yes, Officer those do seem to be my prints on the gun!" - lol.
We should NEVER rely on clues are our primary weapon for catching Mafia. Remember they are based on interpretation NOT fact. This is why I said it DOES NOT MATTER how many more people in the game are Mafia, it's always going to come down to guesswork. At the very least we can focus on behavior. Look at all the people vying for clue work when it's an easily acceptable fact by anyone that has played before that it's a bad idea.
I don't have any suspects, the game just started. I tend to think things out very carefully and lay traps out well in advance to see how funny people's behaviors are. On February 14 2010 12:27 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 12:18 L wrote:
Well the fact that you didn't bother disputing the credibility of the clues when you're 100% certain that they don't point to you is interesting.
If the clue set regarding the moonlight horseman doesn't apply to you, then who does it point to? Instead of analyse what appear to be a substantive set of clues, you've ignored them and provided the town with no content. because I'm not going to sit here and point fingers for no reason. I won't sit here and start revenge accusations just because the clues don't point to me. I won't go looking for people and say HEY THE CLUES POINT TO THIS GUY NOT ME - that doesn't help the town. It just invites one more person into the ruckus and then they have incentive to point to someone else, etc. That's just going to start a bunch of arguments. So far that's 2 things I've got you on that are incentive to cause town uprising aka Mafia Behavior. Come on, one more thing so I can check you on the list and start my epic post. On February 14 2010 12:33 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 12:31 Iaaan wrote:On February 14 2010 12:27 Ace wrote:On February 14 2010 12:18 L wrote:
Well the fact that you didn't bother disputing the credibility of the clues when you're 100% certain that they don't point to you is interesting.
If the clue set regarding the moonlight horseman doesn't apply to you, then who does it point to? Instead of analyse what appear to be a substantive set of clues, you've ignored them and provided the town with no content. because I'm not going to sit here and point fingers for no reason. I won't sit here and start revenge accusations just because the clues don't point to me. I won't go looking for people and say HEY THE CLUES POINT TO THIS GUY NOT ME - that doesn't help the town. It just invites one more person into the ruckus and then they have incentive to point to someone else, etc. That's just going to start a bunch of arguments. So far that's 2 things I've got you on that are incentive to cause town uprising aka Mafia Behavior. Come on, one more thing so I can check you on the list and start my epic post. I'm happy that you don't want to accuse people without a good reason, but the clues still point to you. Thats probably not enough for anyone to lynch you, but its still there. /slams forehead into wall Listen, let's get this straight. Clues only point to someone when it's confirmed through either the persons death or a Detective Clue Check. That's it. The clues don't point to me until one of those 2 conditions are fulfilled so stop saying it. On February 14 2010 12:37 Ace wrote:
L there is no confusion to resolve. I'm not going to sit here and argue about clue content because it's SUBJECTIVE. I will debate on whether or not it's valid to even discuss over them at length since that is something that can be supported with facts: majority of games we play with clue discussion lead to lots of innocent death.
See. It's not that hard to call you out on your bullshit ^_^ On February 14 2010 12:44 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 12:40 Fulgrim wrote:On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Ok, the KingPin has arrived. Time to stop this nonsense and get this game started.
First of all, I'm going to be brutally honest here. Some of you playing are newbies. That isn't to say you're bad, but more so that you haven't had the experience of playing a true cut throat game of Mafia. The last 2 games were honestly so bland - aka too much talking about clues, that it wasn't really that much high level strategy going on.
Like Ver said, talking too much about clues early is USELESS. Don't try to convince anyone that someone is Mafia based on clues for the first few days. It's nice to mention it, but do not make it a central point of focus. MTF and Camlito are the best 2 clue analyzers along with Plexa that we ever had. That was in Mafia 2 and it took a ton of planning + input from various people to even come to some of those conclusions. Chances are you won't be able to do much with clues this game unless you've got some additional proof. What I mean by this is catch someone on behavior analysis + clues + shoddy voting or motives. Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this.
I'm running for Mayor of course. But in the event I don't win, my vote is possibly going to Ver. The only reason I might not vote for him is because he has elected to kill BC which is just as bad as L/Zato wanting me dead. Our most valuable players should be saved unless it's blatantly obvious they are Mafia. There are 3 teams this game, don't even bother trying to murder all of our good players so soon.
Ace you really need to give people more incentive if you expect them to vote for you. You should try and post something with more substance, then just "I'M ACE VOTE FOR ME". Some healthy mafia accusations never hurt anyone, I agree that clues aren't the most helpful early game as you can easily screw up, but its not any worse then just lynching a random player. my incentive is there. I'm already the shining beacon of innocence I always am. If I tried to do anything radically different from normal I'd be labeled as Mafia and gg'd. On February 14 2010 13:13 Ace wrote:
Stop thinking about like it's 1strictly v1v1. If a Mafia member gets elected, the other Mafia + the town are better served by killing him. This is only problematic for the town because now the other Mafia members can blend in with the town easier.
Until one of their own are outted by the ton/other Mafia family and they have to choose between following the crowd or saving their own ^_^
This game is more like a bunch of loose, temporary allegiances than a 3-way death dance. On February 14 2010 13:34 Ace wrote:
If you look at Ver's post you'll realize why most of simply won't believe that. On February 14 2010 13:35 Ace wrote:
that last post was directed @ Hobbes On February 14 2010 14:17 Ace wrote:
Shit is falling in to place beautifully.
Read the last paragraph Redtooth just wrote. Seems like L is trying to FORCE the town to believe 4-5 clues are tied to me doesn't it? On February 14 2010 14:43 Ace wrote:
It's not puzzling Zato. I've done the same thing redtooth has done in numerous games, and every single time the person turned out to be innocent. Really, it's very easy to see when someone is building a case on bullshit. On February 14 2010 15:09 Ace wrote:
Stop trying to make it sound like there are lots of doubts concerning me. That's only from a few of you.Thanks. On February 14 2010 15:26 Ace wrote:
Come on L, you're really trying hard to force my death here. This is pretty bad play :/
When I flip green, you should just offer yourself to be voted off. On February 14 2010 15:27 Ace wrote:
Yea Zato, I play as though I don't give a shit and that I'm above the law. Didn't you get the memo? On February 14 2010 16:05 Ace wrote:
I'd vote for Ver or BC because I have more trust in them than any other candidate. My rule for elected positions is to vote for good, sensible players that won't do anything radical unless something out of the blue pops up and gives me a different reason.
@Hobbes: If someone keeps egging me on based on clues, then I die and flip green you should lynch the accuser. You forgot to mention that in your post. Everyone should be held accountable. If we let people point fingers and an innocent gets lynched and they get away with an "oops", then everyone is going to do it. On February 14 2010 16:11 Ace wrote:
Why not redtooth?
<---haven't casted a vote yet On February 14 2010 16:32 Ace wrote:
@Hobbes: Don't worry. There's more than enough time for Ver to come back and make a stronger argument. Hell the post he made about not basing actions off of clues has done more to make himself legit in my book than anything any other candidate has done besides BC. On February 14 2010 18:24 Ace wrote:
Possible Mayor candidates
Ace
Ver
BC
everyone else
Bill Murray On February 14 2010 19:02 Ace wrote:
maybe because I don't seem to be in a group with anyone else?
<--rolls for doly all the time On February 14 2010 19:32 Ace wrote:
Chezinu still phishing me in PMs even after all these games v_v On February 14 2010 22:55 Ace wrote:
"let them kill each other off now" - and how do we do that? It's not like we KNOW who they are.
I disagree with so much of you're post. You're first paragraph is blatantly wrong because clues aren't always right. The very fact that you don't even know what automatically constitutes a clue makes you wrong on that too. On February 15 2010 11:18 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 10:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 10:14 789 wrote:On February 15 2010 10:04 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 10:02 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Where else is there to go? @789 Well, as I said the 2 school of thought look like go for inactives or go for veteran players. If we go for inactives, we could combine that with clues and go for EMP... that seems to be the best way to go if we go after an inactive to me. As for veterans .. I don't personally have a leading candidate in mind there myself. Some of the stuff going on with accusations and stuff seems to be pre-existing grudges from other games. Lynching Empyrean gives us no information. Although the clue connection is solid, Ace has a strong clue AND behavioral connection imo and we learn a lot depending on how he flips. It has nothing to do with if he's a veteran or not. and another logical fallacy I've found. Get the rope ready. On February 15 2010 11:33 Ace wrote:
No Dr.H made a few very critical mistakes. In fact the first one was even thinking that me posting aggressively implies that I'm suspect. That's just wrong on so many levels because I tend to play aggressive majority of the time regardless of my role.
Then he tried to link myself and redtooth. In fact he's done this several times in an effort to say my death will imply information about him when we haven't even done anything that shows we are on the same side.
The most telling example I have is the trap I set. See I knew that regardless of what role L has, he'd attack me. In fact it's amusing that he does this all the time then people that complain about us arguing. Those people are actually my PRIME SUSPECTS because every time L and I argue a shitload of information seeps out. I'm sure L already has a list of these soon to be dead people lined up though.
The main part of my trap was seeing if anyone was going to shadow L. You know, loosely agree with some of his posts no matter how wrong they are and then try and implicate me. The mere fact that you propose lynching me on Day 1 based on CLUES is a telling point that you want to off me so bad. Even L stepped back for a second to re-asses but you kept on with the accusation.
However there was one other thing that tipped me over the edge. How is it possible that you are currently reading the thread, I'm not even posting and you want to lynch me and you skip Caller's post? That was probably the biggest piece of positive information in the last ~10 hours and you chose to ignore it.
You are definitely not pro-town. You're Mafia. On February 15 2010 11:35 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 11:28 redtooth wrote:On February 15 2010 11:16 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Ace wasn't arguing? Are you kidding? ok now we're arguing with no goal in mind but let me just prove why you are wrong. those posts are so nostalgic: they sound like every other game where Ace and L start off by accusing each other. guess what? in this game nobody listened to ace and just shrugged off his arguments. it wasn't until i started defending him that shit really hit the fan. then everybody started talking, ace backed off and game started moving. and damage control? for what? because you think i'm mafia? or because L (who i was arguing against) and a large chunk of the town realize that i'm town aligned by now. lol you can 'start discussions' with clue analysis all you want. i'll do it by arguing against whoever is talking and randomly/halfheartedly accusing people (chezinu, BC, BM, L) to see their responses. also, if you still don't realize that Ace and i aren't aligned then omg you are slow. you are starting to seem more and more scummy, playing a lot like pyrr did when he was mafia (spamming, agreeing with vets, eventually you'll start apologizing for mistakes). can't wait to see what Ace has in store and can't wait to see what you've got to say. gg scum. don't forget how he tries to tie loose implications up as "solid" facts. Seriously this is so lol. On February 15 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
That's not my fault meeple. People should do their homework if they want to play with the big boys. I read both games hosted recently expecting some of you to play in the next big game. Laziness isn't an excuse for messing up.
Dr.H there's another more specific post I have coming up. Sit tight, that seat is about to get a lot hotter. On February 15 2010 12:20 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 12:03 L wrote:
Ace and I, while often opponents, do not typically argue about this we consider irrelevant. If Ace says he thinks clues are worthless, he actually thinks clues are worthless. Many of our arguments come up after the game ends again because neither of us are convinced that our opposite made a good case.
In the current instance, I don't see what Ace's argument is other than "I SET A TRAP BECAUSE EVERYONE WHO AGREES WITH L MUST BE MAFIA". Seems pretty dumb; if you actually set that trap, you'd be going balls deep trying to kill Iaaan.
BC i'm commenting on your post, had to get a word in edgewise because these two parties are silly. Of course you can't see it, cuz you're not me ^_^ Don't worry about Iaaan. Dr.H comes off way more suspicious for the mere fact he's equating my behavior as Mafia-ish. Really do we have to go through this every game where someone keeps trying to get a bandwagon against me? Either way like I said if you're going to try and use clues as the motivating factor for lynches this game then the town has to agree to hold anyone responsible for mistakes. If you start a bandwagon, or are a main contributor in the lynching of a townie you deserve to be lynched off the bat. No exceptions. In the event I die, when I flip green I really don't want anyone to say "well it was a mistaken clue interpretation". On February 15 2010 12:29 Ace wrote:
ok cool, no problem. Just make sure that in the event of my death you offer yourself up for lynching when I flip green ok? On February 15 2010 12:35 Ace wrote:
I'm not bullying. I'm just hammering home the idea that no one is getting off with any "oops" situations like we've had in the past. The game with Qatol as a Mafia Mayor was the worst example of it I've ever seen and we need to start correcting it. On February 15 2010 12:42 Ace wrote:
oh dear
/facepalm On February 15 2010 13:05 Ace wrote:
I don't think any one is taking this personal. This game has been extremely normal. On February 15 2010 13:09 Ace wrote:
Also I just ignore most of your "arguments" because honestly, they are pretty bad. In past games when I posted long defenses of myself and wound up being innocent people felt like morons for not reading it.
So in past games I've just begun to blatantly ignore it, hoping that others just read your post and see it for themselves. The fact that me "vigorously" defending myself must mean I'm mafia is so beyond stupid I'm hoping we've got enough sensible people working in the backgrounds on all of this.
Either way, it just makes me feel more important and makes my ego bigger. I love the fact that even when I'm just sitting back relaxing the "Ace must be Mafia!" plays start coming. Just goes to show you how great a player I am that people go out of there way to make themselves fail. On February 15 2010 13:11 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 13:07 Bill Murray wrote:
Ace at first seemed to be acting like he did in a game I read before I played my first mafia game... a game where Chezinu was detective. I've looked for the game, but I can't seem to find the correct one. Chezinu basically comes out and yells "WHOO IM THE BEST DIE MAFIA" and ace facepalms just like this (not literally). But, still, I would really like to find that game. It might just be how he acts, though, which is the reason i'm not certain that DoctorH is red just yet, and don't push for his lynching even regarding past discrepancies (flaming him in pms/my stupid comment that forced edit in the previous game that ruined the game[thanks for the second chance, btw.]/the fact that we aren't really on friendly terms because of my meanness.), but with 39.7777%(rofl my math rulez)of the game mafia, how can u really be sure?
Ace, would you agree to dying if DoctorH flips green? Sure. Why not? Also I act like I'm above the law and don't really care in most Mafia games. In the past ~4 games I've tried to just chill, sit back and let others do the work but then people become sheepish so I have to step in. This game I was called out before I even posted and I'm accused of being Mafia because I'm defending myself. Seriously this is getting pretty sad. On February 15 2010 14:41 Ace wrote:
Redtooth remember most of these guys aren't used to games with so much information flowing around. They'll learn the hard way. On February 15 2010 14:53 Ace wrote:
and killing myself or Redtooth gives you what information? Please break this down because so far not a single one of you has told us WHAT information we'll be getting. This is why I keep saying you're being illogical in your "arguments". On February 15 2010 15:16 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 15:04 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Information:
If flip red we can analyze:
Vocal Supporters
Who voted for you for mayor, particularly while giving little reason
Vocal accusers (L, Myself, laaan) are very likely not in the same mafia family as you
People trying to distract attention from accusations toward you without offering a real argument
A relatively large amount of posts to analyze from the perspective of a mafia from a specific family
If you flip green, it's fair to analyze:
Vocal accusers seem more suspicious
Voters for the most vocal accusers
People who suddenly bandwagon against you late in the thread/without reason If I flip red you can't analyze my vocal supporters. There aren't any. No one has supported me so far, only people who have said you guys may be wrong. That isn't support. It doesn't matter if you're not in the same family - you'd still be suspect. Who has tried to distract attention from this argument? List them please. For the very last time, you can't analyze my posts. In fact before you even try and get me killed it might be a wise idea and analyze them now to see what you can find. And by analyze I don't mean "hey guys, look what Ace said" but more akin to what links if any you can see to other people. I ask this sincerely because before you try and kill me on the basis I'm Mafia you should do this BEFORE offing me to make sure you have some clue of what you are doing. Needless to say I think you're so off tangent so this will hopefully show you why you're wrong. Now if you lynch me when I'm innocent you don't even get any more information based on my last paragraph. You have nothing to link me on. Nothing. you'd start the next day with the SAME information as the last. If you can prove me wrong, do it now by examining my posts and see what you can find that is going to be so mind blowing to the town it gets us a path to the Mafia. On February 15 2010 15:18 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 15:07 Iaaan wrote:
In addition to DoctorH's post:
I wrote about this in my first long post, I see connections between you, Redtooth, and possibly other people like decefchicken and abenson. and if your red, we can connect you to one of the clues, and thus rule out other people who also fit the same clue. If your green, then it still leaves suspicion on the people who fit the clue.
And I'm going to bed now, no more posts from me for like 12 hours. so...because decaf and Abenson voted for me if I flip red that makes them suspicious? How about when I flip green? You don't get any further information about either of them. Hence, you're still on the wrong track. On February 15 2010 15:22 Ace wrote:
I'm not blue, I'm green. [QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:33 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:[QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:16 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:04 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Information: If flip red we can analyze: Vocal Supporters Who voted for you for mayor, particularly while giving little reason Vocal accusers (L, Myself, laaan) are very likely not in the same mafia family as you People trying to distract attention from accusations toward you without offering a real argument A relatively large amount of posts to analyze from the perspective of a mafia from a specific family If you flip green, it's fair to analyze: Vocal accusers seem more suspicious Voters for the most vocal accusers People who suddenly bandwagon against you late in the thread/without reason[/QUOTE] If I flip red you can't analyze my vocal supporters. There aren't any. No one has supported me so far, only people who have said you guys may be wrong. That isn't support. It doesn't matter if you're not in the same family - you'd still be suspect. Who has tried to distract attention from this argument? List them please. For the very last time, you can't analyze my posts. In fact before you even try and get me killed it might be a wise idea and analyze them now to see what you can find. And by analyze I don't mean "hey guys, look what Ace said" but more akin to what links if any you can see to other people. I ask this sincerely because before you try and kill me on the basis I'm Mafia you should do this BEFORE offing me to make sure you have some clue of what you are doing. Needless to say I think you're so off tangent so this will hopefully show you why you're wrong. Now if you lynch me when I'm innocent you don't even get any more information based on my last paragraph. You have nothing to link me on. Nothing. you'd start the next day with the SAME information as the last. If you can prove me wrong, do it now by examining my posts and see what you can find that is going to be so mind blowing to the town it gets us a path to the Mafia. [/QUOTE] [quote] You said yourself if you flip green, that myself/L/laaan are likely mafia. Saying there is no information to be gleaned from your death either way is silly.[/quote] Look at my paragraph before the last then re-read what I was addressing. It makes perfect sense. [quote] I wouldn't call ver a vocal supporter of you, but like redtooth said. If you are mafia, your allies will likely not vehemently defend you but perhaps try to discourage the use of clue analysis. Ver made a post a while back saying that "anyone discouraging clue usage is probably innocent" and it seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you tried to discourage redtooth from making anti-ver posts with your PM to him. redtooth just now has added a fair amount to the case for you being scum. You're saying my suspicion isn't based on any analysis, but I've stated many times it has to do with your dodging L's questions, being unwilling to provide alternative solutions, and the biggest basis of your argument being "fuck you I'm ace i dont need to defend myself cuz im ace"[/QUOTE] Ver, myself, MBH, and other have discouraged the use of clue analysis early on in past games. We are KNOWN to do this. This is why I said you pointing this out doesn't help your case. It's really not a big deal. You're trying to out think people when there isn't even a situation present. And yes you're wrong. You should ask redtooth for the PM if you want clarity. I didn't try to influence redtooth in any way. If I wanted to do that I probably would have kept PMing him. He already showed me he was slightly distrustful of me when he cut the conversation short. For the record I don't even agree with Ver that anyone discouraging clue usage is possibly innocent because that's too wide of a blanket statement. How does redtooth's post push me further to scum? PLEASE explain this. Honestly you're really talking lots of bull right now. I address arguments that warrant attention. I'm not here to constantly repeat myself. All the answers are in the posts. If you need help reading, ask for it. Like really you're so wrong and I hate to say it's because you're a newb but it's getting very close to that point. THINK before you post. Seriously. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:39 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:31 Zato-1 wrote:[QUOTE] On February 15 2010 12:15 Bill Murray wrote:the only problem with your analysis, though, my friend... is that you're already thinking from the perspective of an opposing mafia. Why? WHY ZATO?[/QUOTE] Game theory. When you have dynamic decision-making, in which the outcome of my decisions depends upon the decisions you take, the correct way to approach the problem is to determine your optimal course of action first, and once I know what you're going to do and therefore the payoff of each of my own choices, only then do I start looking at what is the optimal course of action for myself. Sorry for the completely off-topic post, but I actually love game theory. Prisoner's dilemma and all that shiz- the very same reasoning that brought me to the conclusion, many pages ago, that mafia will mostly be lurking, so we should focus less on the really active players and more on those who are making shitty, short and content-free posts, and also on those who aren't posting at all.[/QUOTE] As someone who's taking courses in AI and a large part of it was Game Theory, I'd disagree that Mafia would be lurking because somebody has to win this election. BUT - I do agree that we should be looking at the crap-content posters. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:41 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 15 2010 15:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote:How does it push you further to scum? lol Because he provided reasons why he became distrustful of you and since he knows your posting style better than I do, I give a bit of credence to analysis. Why wouldn't additional reasons you may be mafia make me distrust you more? [/QUOTE] But it's not EVIDENCE, it's conjecture. That's like me saying I don't trust Bill Murray - he's obviously more scummy than before! See how this is nonsense? Didn't I tell you to THINK before posting? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 15 2010 17:34 Ace wrote:Bill Murray, the guy that's spamming the thread is a safer option than Chezinu? time to put you on the short bus. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 00:55 Ace wrote:Can you explain how clues link me to both Mafia families? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 01:06 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 00:59 citi.zen wrote:Ace - I already did - see my post on page 45. I am not going to explain my post person by person. Read my post and make up your own minds. Think critically, at this point nobody can "demonstrate" anything beyond doubt.[/QUOTE] Which is exactly why I asked the question. If you say the clues link me to both Mafia families it seems like you're trying to force the clues onto me rather than the other way around. How is it even possible that with so many players being Mafia this game that this can even happen?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 01:18 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 01:11 meeple wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 01:06 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 00:59 citi.zen wrote:Ace - I already did - see my post on page 45. I am not going to explain my post person by person. Read my post and make up your own minds. Think critically, at this point nobody can "demonstrate" anything beyond doubt.[/QUOTE] Which is exactly why I asked the question. If you say the clues link me to both Mafia families it seems like you're trying to force the clues onto me rather than the other way around. How is it even possible that with so many players being Mafia this game that this can even happen?[/QUOTE] I think he meant it more in the way that there are more than one clue connected to you, so even if we're misinterpreting one of them, it gives a greater chance that one of the two clues refers to you. Correct me if I'm wrong though[/QUOTE] Ok I get that. But my point I made from way back is that clues are subjective. So we don't know if they are right or not. So with that in mind no one finds it strange that there seem to be so many coincidental clues being attached to me by multiple players on Day 1?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 01:39 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 01:18 citi.zen wrote:The clues are confusing and not sure things, absolutely. With that caveat in mind, here are the connections to you Ace: [quote]Dreamflower was blinded from the moonlight that reflected off the horseman, and was a little slow to react.[/quote] - look at your profile pic. [quote]Kennigit emerged from behind the wine barrel, thinking that an angel had saved the town. Unfortunately, Kennigit did not find favor from the now radiant creature, and exploded into a shower of blue light.[/quote] - Your profile quote: "If darkness is bad, why does it hide you? If light is good, why does it blind you?" Obviously they cant both be right at the same time, but the connection is there in both cases. You sure respond very promptly every time someone points a finger at you. If you were equally proactive in other areas of the game I would think it much more likely you are the new Hobbes. Right now however you remain high on my shortlist.[/QUOTE] I don't know citizen, I'd figure trying to defend myself would be the wise choice instead of letting people off me with no resistance. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 06:05 Ace wrote:Instead of criticizing people for making useless posts how about you make keep the ball rolling Caller? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 06:19 Ace wrote:Well Caller, it's kind of hard for me to really do much so far since from Day 1 about 4 people have called for my head. I'd think spending my times vehemently proclaiming my innocence was a better use of my time. I'm not trolling at all, show me when I did?  Besides, MTF and Camlito haven't played in over a year. I highly doubt there's a town circle already unless people are doing the blind faith thing again. Also I don't agree that DTs should roleclaim early. If I were Mafia I'd kill them asap. Even if my win condition is to murder the other family why would I want them to have help? DTs are a double edged sword in that regard. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 07:09 Ace wrote:@Caller: How Am I lying? Explain please. @Dr.H: There wasn't a big backlash of people against my clue connection. Please, this is like the 5th time you've over exaggerated a situation. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 07:19 Ace wrote:Really Iaaan? So if that was the case why wouldn't you have thought I was innocent since only 1 person (redtooth) even gave an attempt to defend me? You have a very funny set of standards there sir. L even said he PM'd Empyrean. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:14 Ace wrote:Maybe you should stop taking jabs at the vets, be quiet and stop complaining? Like it or not or whether you believe it or not most of us are better than you, and do have more experience than you. So keep it moving or take your whining somewhere else. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:21 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:21 L wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:19 redtooth wrote:god damn it i said don't worry about chezinu L.[/QUOTE] I'm not worried about him. I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE] and I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:28 Ace wrote:Before writing this I had 5581 posts, and you have 1585. I think something fishy is going on. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:37 Ace wrote:Don't worry redtooth, I believe you man. Some people just are preset in the beliefs so it's a waste of time trying to even discuss with them. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:42 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:39 Bill Murray wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:21 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:21 L wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:19 redtooth wrote:god damn it i said don't worry about chezinu L.[/QUOTE] I'm not worried about him. I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE] and I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE] "Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell,"[/QUOTE] This doesn't apply to me. Not only am I way too good to even fall for that, but I'm innocent. So yes, you fail. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:45 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:42 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:39 Bill Murray wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:21 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:21 L wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:19 redtooth wrote:god damn it i said don't worry about chezinu L.[/QUOTE] I'm not worried about him. I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE] and I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE] "Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell,"[/QUOTE] This doesn't apply to me. Not only am I way too good to even fall for that, but I'm innocent. So yes, you fail. [/QUOTE] All of your arguments basically boil down to "fuk u im ace and im smarter than u so shut up"[/QUOTE] Hey I didn't climb up on this pedestal, you guys put me up to it. Can you blame me? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:45 Ace wrote:god here we go again. I quit. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:49 Ace wrote:Why would you roleclaim? Seriously why? L stop crying, please. Your tears are are wetting up my bullet proof vest. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:52 Ace wrote:But you can't be verified yet and the election isn't over so why did you RC? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:54 Ace wrote:Now you know how it feels to have all the attention on you huh? ^_^[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:58 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 08:55 L wrote:I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to kill someone because of what just happened. [/QUOTE] How did I know you'd use that as an excuse? Paint yourself red more please. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:01 Ace wrote:This happened with Chezinu when he was innocent, so it's not a clear scum tell. The people that voted after it was close are more suspicious looking, not the initial switchers. v_v[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:07 Ace wrote:Seeing L upset made me lulz [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:09 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:08 L wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:07 Ace wrote:Seeing L upset made me die during the day 2 lynch [/QUOTE] Fixed. [/QUOTE] It's been established Pardoner is the more critical position this game. Calm yourself. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:14 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:11 L wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:09 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:08 L wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:07 Ace wrote:Seeing L upset made me die during the day 2 lynch [/QUOTE] Fixed. [/QUOTE] It's been established Pardoner is the more critical position this game. Calm yourself. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but I wanted to kill you with my mayor lynch and have redtooth forced into the unenviable position of pming me about why he would or wouldn't pardon you. [/QUOTE] Except if you killed me when I flip green you'd have to explain yourself since you said you'd kill Empyrean. But of course I'm sure you didn't really think I'd vote for you anyway. *shrug*[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:19 Ace wrote:How much are you willing to put on that L? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:33 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:27 L wrote:And that's why I wanted to kill Ace instead. [/QUOTE] I knew you'd use it as an excuse. Liar. You're clue analysis is WRONG. Just like I said it was. GG. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:34 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:28 Fulgrim wrote:And Empyrean was green, good job 1st day clues. We now need a list of people that should be Role checked, for future lynches/hits, or to have some confirmed greens in the town.[/QUOTE] Yup. And now look at them go, well it didn't fit him so it must fit this guy! This is exactly why I said subjective analysis isn't what we should be primarily going on. So where are all the people that said killing Empyrean would reveal more information to us? What did that do for us? Step up and be accountable. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:36 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:32 Amber[LighT] wrote:hay thanks for listening, cya tomorrow ![/QUOTE] hey if it makes you feel better I didn't tease you this game and actually read your post <3[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:38 Ace wrote:So he convinced you he was innocent because he forgot to vote? lol. Really you expect me to believe that? You're full of it. Give up L. You're clearly Mafia. Wrong on clue analysis, and "convinced" he's innocent because he said he forgot to vote if you didn't PM him. Right. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:42 Ace wrote:I haven't eaten in 3 days. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:50 Ace wrote:My vote was on redtooth. He claimed Medic. Thats why I took it away. Then I thought about his motive for lying at that point in time and it really didn't matter because Ver wasn't here anyway. So me switching my vote back within a few minutes changed nothing. There's no suspicion there. Maybe you should bother questioning the people that pushed him from Pardoner -> Mayor. Pardoner is more powerful than Mayor anyway. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:51 Ace wrote:oh and thanks for the half compliment, makes me feel all goody inside ^_^ *pedestal raises higher*[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:56 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:53 Fulgrim wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:50 Ace wrote:My vote was on redtooth. He claimed Medic. Thats why I took it away. Then I thought about his motive for lying at that point in time and it really didn't matter because Ver wasn't here anyway. So me switching my vote back within a few minutes changed nothing. There's no suspicion there. Maybe you should bother questioning the people that pushed him from Pardoner -> Mayor. Pardoner is more powerful than Mayor anyway. [/QUOTE] So you took it away from him because you realized that having an elected official that careless would be horrible for the town? Or because you wanted him to be rolechecked?[/QUOTE] No I switched because I don't like Day 1 roleclaimers that can't be verified in general. It doesn't matter what I did in those 5 minutes because I was never going to keep my vote on L. You're making a big deal about the wrong thing. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 10:18 Ace wrote:Listen, for the last time my vote isn't suspicious. I went from Redtooth -> L - > Redtooth in the span of a few minutes and anyone reading this thread knows I wasn't going to vote for L seriously. How can you continue to question me but NOT look at the people that tipped over Redtooth in becoming Mayor? Come on, you can't say with a straight face I'm more suspect than yourself in that regard. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 10:27 Ace wrote:^_^ they see me rollin, they hatin[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 10:32 Ace wrote:aww shizzle my nizzle! [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 10:44 Ace wrote:*yawn* Maybe if you people just let me be instead of calling me out on ridiculous "arguments" we wouldn't be having this problem? L has been far from reasonable and I've already showed how. But keep skipping my posts and saying I'm not contributing when clearly I have been. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 10:51 Ace wrote:Zato what have YOU done to help the town? Tell me please. Besides saying you're tired of reading so and so's posts and that lurkers are suspicious. My mere presence in the game generates 10x more discussion and analysis than you could have ever provided. They see me rollin![/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 10:49 Ace wrote:Of course I am ^_^ . I've tried doing direct logic like 7 games in a row and people still didn't believe me even when I was clearly innocent. So from now on I'm settling for short, indirect proofs that rely on people to read the post of those attacking me to get the complete picture. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 11:04 Ace wrote:@madnessman: If going with your post let's assume redtooth is Mafia: Go back to when he claimed Medic. I switched my vote off. Then I switch back on, with Emp and BM both voting for him also. With EMP flipping green it's not 100% certain that it was a Mafia split that tipped him over. If that's the case that means looking at the entire vote list, more accurately Bill Murray who was the deciding vote would "solve" your scenario. It would actually look more suspicious if Redtooth and BM had loose ties, aka barely talking to each other in the thread as that's surely a common mafia tell when none of them are in danger. However, I'm more interested in the early voters. With 2 Mafia families neither can wait around for swing votes unless they felt their candidates were strong enough to get those votes early on their own. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 11:06 Ace wrote:Interesting Fulgrim, I didn't know we had vigilantes in this game.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 14:11 Ace wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 12:32 Malongo wrote:[QUOTE] On February 16 2010 09:50 Ace wrote:My vote was on redtooth. He claimed Medic. Thats why I took it away. Then I thought about his motive for lying at that point in time and it really didn't matter because Ver wasn't here anyway. So me switching my vote back within a few minutes changed nothing. There's no suspicion there. Maybe you should bother questioning the people that pushed him from Pardoner -> Mayor. Pardoner is more powerful than Mayor anyway. [/QUOTE] I disagree here Ace. From mafia pov its direct that knowing all the bgs-> confirmed townies or at least few chances of mafia from the other family + 3 votes is huge. Think about this: this game is more likely to go until 20 players remain unless one family is absolutely demolishing the other. In this case having a mafia having 3 votes and clearing up the targets with the bgs list is lot better than 2 pardons overall. Having a mafia mayor is a huge advantage against the other mafia, having a pardoner *may* save one of your foes but its not like the other mafia cant target him anyways next night. As you see pardoner <<<< mayor for a mafia player. [/quote] Being that redtooth doesn't have a large group of support being Mayor isn't that great even with 3 votes. Pardoner on the other hand saves your faam from a lynch and forces the other Mafia to have to hit the guy. Who knows what the Pardoner can convince the town about his fellow scum in that time frame. That's a sweet trade. The only way I'd say Mafia Mayor > Pardoner is IF they have BGs they never have to reveal and that don't get killed. Otherwise there's no power play there imo. Either way I'm glad he got it over L. Yay. [quote] So the point is, what is redtooth going to do about his claim¿ The best way to set this up is : Redtooth self claimed medic declares his target for protection before the night. This way the other family /assuming redtooth is mafia/ has the chance to hit that target and unreveal redtooth. It is win for that family because then they force the town to lynch him if he turns nonmedic, and it is win for that family in case the target survives because they can play knowing that redtooth is not in the other mafia. Thoughts¿ [/QUOTE] This scenario dies under 2 conditions: 1.) You need to know that the target is going to get HIT in the first place, not protected by Medics and isn't a Veteran. If the player gets hit, we need to know which of these conditions was satisfied. Then you have to verify the guy that got hit is pro-town since he'd have no incentive to lie. 2.) Target gets dbl tapped. If this happens and Redtooth is indeed a Medic he'd look guilty. We'd have no idea if the person he protected was hit by multiple people. In fact knowing the idea is to confirm Redtooth via this way why wouldn't they want to stack the hit, or take the chance the other family sends the hit too? It's not an easy thing to confirm him without Vigilantes since our evidence comes from scum who I'm sure don't want to help us in any way. Also the possible loss for the town is a waste of protection if he is legit. If he isn't oh well, let's lynch him! [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 14:14 Ace wrote:So like I said, top Mafia suspect for now is L. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 14:18 Ace wrote:can you give me the revised idea then? I'd like to hear it once so I don't read it and make any mistakes ^_^[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 14:28 Ace wrote:Ok but what will that do? If you don't get hit that doesn't prove anything about either of you.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 14:38 Ace wrote:No. What I'm saying is if you don't get hit then your plan hasn't done anything besides forced Redooth to protect you if he is indeed legit. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 19:26 Ace wrote:Even though Vivi is wrong about me(as expected) it's funny to see him say I'm in the same Mafia family as BC because BC defended me. Lol. Seriously, with so many people accusing me of being scum with no proof that actually makes it more likely I'm town.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 19:35 Ace wrote:should be like me, I only put faith in my bullet proof vest. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 21:33 Ace wrote:You make it sound as if defending myself is a bad idea Ver. Also don't you think it's odd that multiple people have tried to get me killed already? That surely has to raise some alarms right? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 21:34 Ace wrote:Also, Infundibulum should be protected. I smoked weed with him in PM land, he seems legit. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 16 2010 22:49 Ace wrote:There's a flaw in your logic. It doesn't matter if Mafia only want to kill other Mafia, they want to appear as town. Hence, they'll hunt down anyone to appear as hunting scum. ^_^[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 17 2010 08:29 Ace wrote:Don't have much time, but Townies listen to Scamp and LucaWoj. Under NO circumstances should anyone reveal they are a medic. Those are our trump cards because whichever side is "winning" the shooutout can't be allowed to run wild. Bill Murray you're actually one of my top 3 suspects now. No purely because of the spam, but because you've been wrong multiple times. Not even Amber[light] or Vivi57 have missed this many times in a single game. Feels as though you're trying to pull off the clueless role. Redtooth Chezinu isn't a confirmed DT. Don't get why you are protecting him unless you feel he's the only credible pro-town player at the moment? Also I forgot if it was you that made the "DTs can safely claim" post, and since I'm about to leave I can't check. But if anyone checks this information out and see that you made the argument, or supported it you're getting lynched tomorrow. That would show a huge contradiction in what you said and then your decision to protect Chezinu. Of course I hope that's not the case ^_^ I'll be playing for real from now on. Let's hope I don't die tonight ^_^[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 17 2010 08:34 Ace wrote:You don't have to trust anyone. PMs from Ver don't even matter, who cares what he thinks you are? You've missed on, or just flat out got lost in a few discussions. Some of those were pretty simple ideas that you got mixed up on and since I don't think you're an idiot I'm not buying it. Ok I'm out of here now. Foolishness put this one in your NOBODY CARES files ^_^[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] On February 17 2010 10:18 Ace wrote:I should have made more bets. [/QUOTE]
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Zato-1
+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2010 08:39 Zato-1 wrote:My impressions: Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 07:43 Incognito wrote:
Suddenly however, she noticed two horsemen stopped on the ridge in the distance. (...)
Sure enough, the two horsemen began slowly approaching the town. It's evident that two horsement killed Qatol. But if this is a clue pointing at the mafioso who killed him, how can there be two horsemen? It makes me think of the Chaos Knight from DotA, a horseman who can create illusions of himself with his Phantasm ultimate. After looking through... 51 profiles... I can't really connect this to anyone at this time. As to the other clues, there's a torch that comes from the side opposite the horsemen (points to a mafioso in the opposite family), a crazed psycopath who laughs and moves swiftly through the shadows, and someone that shines a lot, makes people explode and is on the team opposite the crazed psycopath. On February 14 2010 08:57 Zato-1 wrote:
On another note-
Listen up, fellow townies, because this is important:
In a standard Town-versus-Mafia game, pointing out clues, behavior analysis and any other info that might lead us to the identities of mafia is always good. After all, it's a zero-sum game, us vs. them, if they lose then we win.
This game is different. If 'they' lose, by which I mean mafia members start dying, this will not necessarily be to our advantage. To illustrate my point, imagine there's 7 members of the Gambino family left alive, and 3 members of the Sumiyoshi family. Killing off additional members of the Sumiyoshi family in fact works against us- we're letting the Gambino family win. In fact, we actively do NOT want to publicly reveal the identities of the remaining Sumiyoshi family members in this example- we'd just be handing those names to the Gambino family on a platter so they can kill them at night.
Is this piece of info relevant? Not now, at any rate. But it might be later on in the game, if one of the mafia families starts hemorrhaging members and the other one doesn't. Feel free to post any serious leads you think you might have. Just remember that when we're getting leads on potential mafia members, we're also cluing in the mafia family to which that person doesn't belong to. On February 14 2010 09:29 Zato-1 wrote:It... does seem to look that way. "If darkness is bad, why does it hide you? If light is good, why does it blind you?" There are numerous references to the horsemen hiding in the shadows, and then to using light to blind dreamflower. I'm still not 100% convinced that this is all referring to Ace, but whatever doubt remains on my mind is only from the fact that day 1 clue analysis should be taken with a metric ton of salt. On February 14 2010 13:46 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this. I like how instead of refuting the claims, you make yourself sound so high and mighty that it's preposterous these suspicions were cast in the first place, therefore you don't need to give any explanations to anyone. Yes, I agree that I contributed to casting a light of suspicion on you, based on L's post. Given how blatantly your profile matched the Day 1 clues, I'd say raising an eyebrow is warranted- but enough of that. It's derailing the conversation, since you're obviously less interested in attacking the arguments made against you than you are in attacking their proponents. Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 12:51 L wrote:
1) What's our job as town? Survive? Hunt mafia? You tell me. Without any Vigis this game, most of the KP lies in the mafia families, so we want to paint targets on mafia members' heads. Your math was more or less correct: We need 16-17 mafia dead in order to win, and our numbers cannot drop below 5. With 6 KP a night in mafia hands (who are looking at a universe of targets of 10 mafia and 31 townies for a ~75% chance of hitting a town member if chosen at random), plus our very own 1 KP from a lynch (with a universe 20 mafia and 31 town targets for ~60% chance of lynching one of our own if chosen at random), we have 6 or 7 days on our hands- as you said, not nearly enough to lynch the 14+ mafia we need to kill (I'm assuming they'll manage to kill at least two or three of each others' ranks in the process). If decisions are left to chance due to a lack of likely targets, we lose. Things we ought to do by tomorrow: 1. Get a list of people who haven't posted. 2. Point out anything that seems suspicious. You may lead their posters to gruesome deaths at mafia hands, but again- a lack of leads is just not good enough for us. We need to feed the mafia families info that is more likely to get them to kill other mafiosos than random chance, for now. The mafia families have the men of action- they get to make the big calls that determine who lives and who dies, mostly. We just play the role of detectives, for now. And choose a mayor / pardoner. On February 14 2010 14:36 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 14:13 redtooth wrote:
if anything Ace seems more innocent because there are so many clues pointing to him. of course that doesn't give him guaranteed townie status (like what chezinu was trying with citizen). i think you are being absurd right now and am wondering if you just want him killed so you can take over the game. The affront to logic here is so egregious, that coupled with all of your previous posts in which you go out of your way to defend Ace one might think you have an ulterior motive for doing so. I mean, I can understand if you don't think much of clue analysis, and you've been pretty unambiguous on that subject. But from your posts, I can't help but get the impression that you KNOW Ace isn't mafia, or at least that you are committed to defending him. Put another way, if Ace were to flip red, you would rank quite high on my next list of suspects. No, I am not accusing you of anything right now. Defending someone else and stopping a bandwagon before it begins has its merits if you feel the charges against that person lack substance. The fact that you have gone above and beyond this is... puzzling, at best. On February 14 2010 15:24 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 15:01 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:
At this point, I'm all for citizen as mayor, last game he played extremely well, and he hasn't become involved in all of this Ace/Ver/L shaky clue analysis/finger pointing. Ver hasn't exactly been a major contributor to this latest galactic confrontation between Ace and L, iirc. I'd say redtooth and myself have been far more active in that regard- not that either of us is running for office. As to the elections, I'm undecided between I10f and L currently, though I'd seriously consider Ver if he presented a candidacy (which I believe he hasn't?). Ace doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone, and I've never played with citi.zen before. Chez... sorry man, promising to post exclusively coherent content is nice and all, but you should preach with the example rather than make promises. BloodyC0bbler's posts have inspired zero confidence in me so far... in fact, you had to look with a bloody magnifying glass to find any content in the post in which he announces his candidacy. On February 14 2010 15:38 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 15:12 madnessman wrote:
As others have mentioned, in the passage there is quite a lot of imagery regarding darkness and light. A lot of players' profiles allude to this in some form or another. So in this regard, getting carried away and everybody jumping on the bandwagon and pointing fingers at individuals whose profiles have a vague connection to these clues may not be the best idea. Well I'll be damned, someone actually made a compelling case for why the suspicion on Ace may be misplaced. Color me impressed. The fact that darkness and light references not only have to do with the twin horsemen that killed Qatol, but go on with the burning house, the shadowy figure that killed Incognito and the radiant being that killed Kennigit... it does raise the possibility that while trying to portray one mafia family with imagery of darkness and the other with light, Incognito unwittingly placed Ace in the crossfire. I am now prepared to admit that the evidence against Ace is insufficient. Well done, madnessman. On February 14 2010 16:12 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 15:30 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I10f has posted next to nothing for his candidacy yet is getting supporters? This is what makes one sketchy. He has votes, he has no platform past "i will lynch a previous red from another game" and bam he inspires confidence while hiding in the woodworks. All those who have so far fallen into support of him, or have voted for him are insanely suspect. I10f's proposed lynch target is not 'a previous red from another game'. If you think people shouldn't vote for him, you should start by trying to make your own campaign as attractive as possible, instead of threatening those who vote for others. On February 15 2010 07:12 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 02:42 L wrote:
So, the moment I went to sleep, my insomniac mind came back to the question that I think is the core of this game: What should the town do?
And then I realized that its pretty obvious; The town needs to not die, and the town needs to have mafia killed. But how can you accomplish both while saving blues? I kinda wondered for a while, but then It became incredible obvious; Fully analyse each clueset. I think you're missing one part of the equation, L. I have to thank Ver for this: Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 21:13 Ver wrote:
So far this seems like a typical game. Normally mafia are either very active or take to the shadows and lurk. This game seems to be the latter, with a lot of town infighting and the mafia staying quiet and scheming. There's not much bandwagoning going on, just lots of confusion and various discussion of approaches etc. This isn't the kind of scenario where mafia need to post much. They just want to sit back and avoid getting noticed. Look at the other side of the coin: What should the mafia families do? Recently, there was a game in which DoctorHelvetica put on a pretty good performance as a Godfather pretending to be an active Town member. Now, ask yourselves this: would the mafia want to do such a thing in this game? No. In a standard game, mafia loses if the Town lynches them properly, so they have to try to get townies to lynch each other. In this game, Town lynches have got to be the last thing on a mafia family's mind. The real danger to them is in the other mafia family's KP, so it's really a no-brainer to try to get under the radar and have their counterparts waste as many hits on Town targets as possible. Mafia members get so little benefit from misdirecting the Town on that one lynch they have, and it's so much effort to even get the Town to follow your lead, that it's just not worth it. Let the Town play its own little game- maybe they'll lynch a Gambino, maybe they'll lynch a Sumiyoshi, maybe they'll lynch a Town member. Who cares? Participating actively won't particularly help mafia members unearth the identities of their real targets, and will definitely make themselves appear on the radar for the rival family. Best-case scenario, enemy family members are among the high-profile posters and you can take some out. Worst-case scenario, they're also lurking, in which case both mafia families will kill people randomly and a lot of Town members get killed. So yeah, this goes for the rest of the Town as well as for both mafia families lurking around: You want to find tasty mafia targets to kill? Take a good, long look at those who are inactive / making short, inane posts. On February 15 2010 07:26 Zato-1 wrote:
An addendum to my previous post: There is one good reason for mafia members to be active, and that is if they want to be mayor / pardoner. Being in the spotlight isn't so bad if you're protected from the enemy KP. So while there may be some mafiosos among the more active parts of the community (particularly those running for office), it's still a good idea to focus for now on the less active players, where the majority of the mafia population should be. On February 15 2010 12:08 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:26 Caller wrote:
Thus, the mayor's role, assuming a townie gets in, is to try and organize town so as to search the bodyguards. Mafia don't have as strong of an incentive to kill DTs right now because DTs are a great way to get the roles of the opposing mafia. Thus, DTs can feel safe to check the bodyguards and the mayor should allow the DTs to get the bodyguard list. The problem is finding a way to get the DTs to contact the mayor while avoiding infiltrators posing as DTs to do role checks. But I think the risks for infiltration are too high-at best they will get one enemy mafia, and at worse will lose the infiltrator-a trade that I think will not be worth it. While I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying the incentives are too strong against it to make it worthwhile. There's a problem with your plan, Caller. Imagine that I'm a mafia member from the Gambino family. I know that neither the mayor or the pardoner are from my ranks, and we have no infiltrated bodyguards. Since my family's goal is to kill all members of the Sumiyoshi family, this includes potentially killing the mayor / pardoner, because there's a good chance at least one of them is from the other family. Because they will be immune to hits due to bodyguards, getting the list of bodyguards will be quite valuable and possibly well worth the trade. On February 15 2010 15:31 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 12:15 Bill Murray wrote:
the only problem with your analysis, though, my friend... is that you're already thinking from the perspective of an opposing mafia. Why?
WHY ZATO? Game theory. When you have dynamic decision-making, in which the outcome of my decisions depends upon the decisions you take, the correct way to approach the problem is to determine your optimal course of action first, and once I know what you're going to do and therefore the payoff of each of my own choices, only then do I start looking at what is the optimal course of action for myself. Sorry for the completely off-topic post, but I actually love game theory. Prisoner's dilemma and all that shiz- the very same reasoning that brought me to the conclusion, many pages ago, that mafia will mostly be lurking, so we should focus less on the really active players and more on those who are making shitty, short and content-free posts, and also on those who aren't posting at all. On February 16 2010 09:33 Zato-1 wrote:
I'm currently reading page 48 of this thread. Keeping up to date is becoming nigh impossible due to the endless spam. I've officially asked L by PM to lynch Bill Murray if he becomes mayor because cluttering up the thread with spam as much as he does is making this game impossible to play.
Also, it doesn't help that DoctorHelvetica feels the need to reply to every other post in the thread, adding nothing of value with many of his posts. I'm sorry to add yet another content-free post to the pile, but playing this game right now feels like a chore, and the fastest way I can see to get it back on track is to lynch the godfather of spam, Bill Murray. On February 16 2010 10:36 Zato-1 wrote:Ok, done skimming over the last 17 pages. Things I've noted: - Bill Murray and DoctorHelvetica keep posting away like there's no tomorrow. On the plus side, some of DoctorHelvetica's posts have been pretty helpful. I especially liked the one post + Show Spoiler [the post in question] +On February 15 2010 07:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:I stopped at page 24, I'm a bit exhausted. Here is my post so far: Argument CompilationAnything listed in red is an objectively untrue statement or something I find completely ridiculous. I didn't list a lot of redundant arguments for the sake of time, but I got mostly everything. I've changed my mind a bit after going back and really scrutinizing every post. I suggest everyone do the same, you'd be surprised what bad conclusions you may have come to because you weren't really thinking. I blame my lack of focus yesterday due to packing up my room and playing video games while half-assedly browsing the mafia thread, but from now on I'm on full alert ;o I will post another update to this when I feel it's relevant. KEEP IN MIND THAT I DID NOT COMPILE ARGUMENTS FROM PAGE 24 OR BEYONDBloodyC0bbler + Show Spoiler +
Argues that people should vote him for mayor because he is a strong player who can guide the town.
I don't need to offer a strategy for the town to be mayor.
l10f has done nothing to get people to vote for him, anyone who votes for him is suspicious.
Don't use previous games to justify actions in this one.
If L is mafia he wants Ace dead because Ace is another mafia or a strong townie.
Ver + Show Spoiler +Discussing clues too much on the first day helps the mafia, Day 1 clues are very vague and shouldn't be taken seriously until later.
Posting behavior isn't very easy to lynch people off of unless they make bad mistakes.
We need to have a plan for the elected/blue roles and gather as much information as possible.
Don't hide your thoughts. Post whatever, the more active people are the harder it is for mafia to hide.
Instead of making immediate accusations based on clues, build clue profiles that grow stronger over time.
Primary suspect is BloodyC0bbler due to a change in posting behavior. Looking at clues is very helpful, even on Day 1 because the clues are very good this time around.
The clues very clearly point toward Ace as being mafia.
Ace is discouraging clue analysis because he knows it will kill him.
We can't afford to waste any lynches.
Clues will help the mafia kill eachother for the benefit of the town.
Ace needs to provide an alternative person to fit the day 1 clues.
Ace is mafia because he refuses to analyze the clues and provide an alternative even though he is "innocent"
The majority of anything people discuss lead to innocent deaths. Discussion still needs to happen and will tell us who is active and who isn't.
Don't treat this game like a large 1 mafia game. Clues will be very important here.
There isn't necessarily a clear clue division between the two families.
The clues pointing to Ace are specific and very clear, not at all a stretch.
It isn't likely that clues will grow stronger over time due to the sheer amount of mafia in this game.
Don't make useless posts.
People should listen to my clue analysis because I am very good at it.
Town can't waste time due to KP disparity.
Saying Ace is innocent because Incog wants him alive makes it too easy to twist clues.
Mafia might have several good/veteran players.
People look more innocent if herring clues apply to them.
If Ace is red, Malongo probably is too.
Don't be scared to kill a good player on day 1.
I'm not trying to force Ace to die, I'm trying to analyze the clues. Offer an alternative fit if you want to turn away suspicion.
I don't want Ace dead, I want the moonlight rider dead.
Zato-1 + Show Spoiler +The Horsemen are on a different team from the torch thrower, the psychopath is on a different team from the angel.
There may come a time when we may need to help one mafia family survive over another.
The clue connection to Ace is strong, but perhaps not strong enough.
Ace needs to argue against the clues, not the people analyzing them.
Our job as town is to direct the mafia into killing eachother.
It seems redtooth has an ulterior motive for defending Ace.
laaan + Show Spoiler +Clues promote discussion which helps the town.
There is a possibility that BloodyCobbler's profile fits the clues.
Town should focus on keeping good players alive while the mafia kill eachother.
Mafia will want the pardoner role.
l10f + Show Spoiler +We shouldn't point fingers until later days.
If I am elected, I will lynch someone who was previously mafia.
Chezinu is mafia and I will lynch him if I'm mayor.
DoctorHelvetica + Show Spoiler +Let's not make accusations based on clues until later. Worry about the mayor lynch.
Agrees with Ver that clue profiling will be very helpful.
Don't lynch Day 1 based on clues, they're useful later.
BloodyCobbler should be lynched because the accusations on him are based on posting behavior and inconsistency.
Use clues to help DT's and the town in the late-game.
Malongo + Show Spoiler +We need a protected DT. Disagrees with Ver, even a wrong or fake analysis can help us. l10f should be mayor because he claimed blue l10f never roleclaimed a blue roleCaller, L, and BC are mafia Caller. Half inactive up to now. Posted defending BC out of nowhere.
L: Wanted to change his profile. Not really doing what he does in all games to benefit the town.
BC: Already spotted by ver. meeple + Show Spoiler +Clues will be very important here.
The accusation on BloodyCobbler is too weak to lynch him.
Town should focus on surviving and hunting mafia Mystlord + Show Spoiler +We shouldn't lynch on clues before Day 3.
Clues are mostly a vehicle for potentially incriminating discussion.
Don't lynch Chezinu Day 1 arbitrarily.
We need a mayor who is uninvolved in this drama.
Using information from past games isn't helpful.
Caller + Show Spoiler +BloodyCobbler will be such a helpful townie that he's a poor choice for a Day 1 lynch.
Don't lynch strong players without good reason. d3_crescentia + Show Spoiler +Don't lynch strong players without good reason.
Clues need to be strong in this game, we shouldn't ignore Day 1 clues because there are so many mafia.
We need to keep in mind how the dynamic shifts due to there being 2 mafia.
Abenson + Show Spoiler +Lynching someone based on posts hurts on the first day.
Focus on the elections Talking about clues early is useless, they are useful later.
I'm being targeted by L and Zato because I'm a good pro-town player. (Implies L and Zat are mafia)
Be wary of light/ungrounded accusations.
Don't lynch strong players unless it is obvious they are mafia.
Blindly pointing fingers is bad no matter what.
Clues are subjective, not objective.
Never rely on clues.
I refuse to provide an alternative because I don't want to point fingers at anyone.
Clues are useful only when processed through DT's.
I can't be mafia because if I acted differently than in previous games everyone would notice and lynch me instantly.
I won't argue about clue analysis because it is subjective. I can debate whether they are valid because that is objective. Clue discussion leads to innocent death.
Don't think of this as 1v1v1, this game is about temporary allegiances as the mafia try to kill eachother.
L is trying to turn the town against me.
Very few people actually doubt me as pro-town.
L is trying to force my death and if I'm green/blue, he's definitely red.
Day 1 clue analysis is useless.
Don't post distracting things.
Ace is right. Clue analysis is the last thing we need right now.
The winning mayor should lynch a veteran mayor candidate.
BloodyCobbler is suspicious.
Mafia will have one person running for mayor at least.
The clues pointing toward Ace are a stretch.
We will never have a good Day 1 analysis.
Incognito wouldn't make obvious clues point to Ace, even if Ace was mafia.
Ace plays aggressive whether he is mafia or town, attacking his argument style is useless.
An alliance between mafia will be terrible for the town.
I agree that we will probably never see 2 sets of clues on 1 mafia.
If Ace was mafia, incognito wants him alive.
Ace is innocent because the clues point to him.
There have been no mafia accusations between L and Ace up until now.
-Untrue. L directly said "I think you're red" to Ace before this post, Ace also implied Zato/L were mafia in his first post although he didn't directly accuse them
L is upset about the last game in which he was mafia which is why he wants Ace dead.
Ace isn't necessarily innocent, the clues just don't point to him. Clue analysis on day 1 is trash.
Dozko + Show Spoiler +Disagrees with Ace: Behavioral analysis is much more subjective than clues.
All we have are Day 1 clues, we shouldn't ignore them.
Chezinu + Show Spoiler +Day 1 clues are good to start discussion.
Use clues to accuse people even if you don't really suspect them, then analyze their reaction.
I should be mayor because I am untrustworthy.
There is no such thing as a wasted post.
Don't kill me.
What people say in public isn't necessarily what they actually think. Hobbes + Show Spoiler +By lynching active posters with clues pointing toward them, we gain a lot of helpful information.
It isn't a bad idea to lynch Ace.
Just because a player is good doesn't mean they are sacrosanct. The bolded spoilers are very important as they will shine a lot of light on the argument between Ace/L/Redtooth. After reading through the thread more closely, I believe clue analysis is a lot more important than I first though. The clues are much stronger and L's point about clue profiling being mostly useless because of the large number of mafia is a very good one. L has been consistent and well-spoken in his arguments. Ace/Redtooth have been a bit inconsistent and too personal. Saying things like "L is obviously upset about this previous game" doesn't help anything and is just worthless speculation that distracts from the real argument. Ace's refusal to provide an alternative fit cannot be ignored. L did imply that Ace was butthurt about a previous game and I do hold that against him, unless he has some sort of strategical reason for doing so (such as trying to provoke a specific reaction) Read through this and make what you will of it! Keep in mind newer arguments (Page 24 onward) aren't posted here. in which he summed up what's been going on in the game- in fact, even though I've mostly read through everything, an update of this post would be very much appreciated. Most of his other posts are short replies in conversations with Ace / redtooth / Bill Murray, and those have mostly just helped to clutter up the thread. Bill Murray... let's just say I'm not playing in a mafia game in which he's playing, ever again. I've stopped reading his posts, and so should you. He's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING all game long, and is spamming the shit out of all of us. - Much like Bill Murray, Ace has made no contributions whatsoever. L made a note of this at some point- Ace has just been pointing out why anyone who suspects him must be a half-wit, and has otherwise been making pointless witty remarks. This makes me think he is, in fact, mafia. Not based upon clue analysis like at the start of the game, but based on behavioral analysis. If he's running for mayor and posting a lot, why would he just post a steaming pile of shit all game long? - I've warned twice of the people who are lurking. I'll do it again. Yes, there are probably a few mafia among high-profile posters. There are two people among them who I believe are NOT mafia at this point- L and redtooth. L because he's been the single most powerful voice of reason so far and has provided the Town with leadership that might actually get us somewhere. redtooth, because of the post he made when he announced he would vote for L. At any rate, the important part right now is: It's night time. I said at one point that mafia are the men of action, the Town can only hope to direct their guns at one another instead of having them shoot randomly. Well, it's that time folks. If you want to do the Town a real service, post the names of those you think are mafia, and why you think that. It's in our best interest to help the mafia families to get to know one another right now. On February 16 2010 10:48 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 10:44 Ace wrote:
*yawn*
Maybe if you people just let me be instead of calling me out on ridiculous "arguments" we wouldn't be having this problem? L has been far from reasonable and I've already showed how. But keep skipping my posts and saying I'm not contributing when clearly I have been. I've been reading your posts, every single one. How about instead of posting to dismiss yet another person's arguments, you come up with something helpful for the town instead? On February 16 2010 11:07 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 10:51 Ace wrote:
Zato what have YOU done to help the town? Tell me please. Besides saying you're tired of reading so and so's posts and that lurkers are suspicious. My mere presence in the game generates 10x more discussion and analysis than you could have ever provided.
They see me rollin! I've helped establish a proper strategy for the Town to follow. I've called out those who are most detrimental to the Town- those who make people stop wanting to read the thread and contribute, and therefore make it easier for mafia to lurk undetected. I've explained why Qatol's plan for the mayor to reveal the bodyguard list to whoever claims to be a DT and asks for it is a bad idea. I'm actively trying to get the Town to suffer fewer deaths on night 1. It's not an impressive list, I'll admit. But come now, you don't really care about what I'm doing. You just want to change the topic. Again. Weasel out of having to lift a goddamn finger for the town. Again. I can't know for sure if you really are mafia, Ace. But I sure damn suspect you are, by now. Prove me wrong, please. Start playing like someone who gives a damn for the Town. On February 16 2010 11:44 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 11:18 Qatol wrote:On February 16 2010 11:07 Zato-1 wrote:
I've explained why Qatol's plan for the mayor to reveal the bodyguard list to whoever claims to be a DT and asks for it is a bad idea.
Qatol has had no such plan! (I'm not playing in this game. I just jump in to clarify rules questions because Incog is going to wind up asking me them anyways and I might as well speed up the process.) My bad, it was actually Caller. On February 16 2010 21:26 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:16 madnessman wrote:
There are many many flaws to this plan. HOWEVER I do believe it will work *IF* the mafia team that does not have Malongo or redtooth on their roster were to hit Malongo tonight, and none of the medics (aside from redtooth obviously) protects him! This whole proposition from Malongo is flawed. Let me pick it apart piece by piece: Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:16 madnessman wrote:
1. redtooth is MAFIA A and Malongo is TOWNIE
- Mafia A doesn't hit Malongo. Mafia B hits Malongo. Malongo dies. We know that redtooth is not actually a medic and a member of Mafia A! -> this info = good for both Mafia B and the town, bad for Mafia A Look at from Mafia B's perspective. They hit Malongo. Malongo dies. Either redtooth did not protect him and is therefore from Mafia A, or redtooth did protect him but Mafia A also hit Malongo. Either way, Mafia B wasted a hit and still doesn't know a thing about redtooth. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:16 madnessman wrote:
2. redtooth is a MEDIC and Malongo is MAFIA A
- Mafia A doesn't hit Malongo. Mafia B hits Malongo. redtooth saves Malongo. Mafia B now knows that redtooth is actually a medic and NOT a member of Mafia A! -> this info = good for Mafia B (Town remains ignorant as it has no way of knowing for certain that a hit was placed on Malongo.) Whoopy doo, Mafia B wastes a hit to determine that 1 out of 40 targets is NOT someone they want to kill after all. Not worth it. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:16 madnessman wrote:
3. redtooth is MAFIA A and Malongo are MAFIA A
- Mafia A doesn't hit Malongo. Mafia B hits Malongo. Malongo dies. We now know redtooth is not actually a medic and a member of Mafia A! -> this info = good for both Mafia B and the town, bad for Mafia A This case would make sense, except for the fact that since Malongo is Mafia A and so is redtooth, Malongo would know the plan would backfire horribly upon his own family and would therefore never have proposed it in the first place. This scenario is almost an impossibility. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:16 madnessman wrote:
4. redtooth is a MEDIC and Malongo is TOWNIE
- Mafia A hits Malongo. Mafia B hits Malongo. redtooth saves Malongo. But because he got 2 hits does he die??? A medic cover will protect a target from 1 night hit, so if both mafia families were to hit him, Malongo would die, yes. In this case, both mafia families are left to wonder whether the other family also hit Malongo, or redtooth was mafia and didn't protect Malongo- the only thing the end result tells them is that the number of hits on Malongo exceeded the number of medic covers by at least 1. If only one family hits Malongo, all they achieve is determining that redtooth is indeed a medic, and therefore someone they don't particularly care to kill. So depending on circumstances which Mafia B family does not control, they will either learn: a) Nothing, or b) That 1/40 targets is not someone they care about (redtooth). As to the question, what do we have to lose? A medic cover, that's what. I've established that it is not in the mafia's interest to hit whoever redtooth claims he will cover, therefore they won't, and redtooth will waste his medic cover (if he indeed has one). Sure, it's a small cost to pay, but when there's literally zero upside, it's still a bad plan. Also, in before SugiuraMidori accuses me of being mafia for the scummy logic in this post :p On February 16 2010 22:43 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 19:26 Ace wrote:
Seriously, with so many people accusing me of being scum with no proof that actually makes it more likely I'm town. Great logic here. Both townies AND members of whichever mafia family you're not on would only really want you killed if you're mafia. Why would mafia go out of their way to get you killed if you're from the Town? The flipside of this argument, of course, is that if you DO turn out to be mafia, that proves nothing about the allegiances of those who accused you- they're either townies trying to kill mafia, or mafia from the opposite family. The only way you're going to convince anyone of your innocence at this point is by: a. Clearly identifying the arguments made against you, then b. Proceeding to show why they're not compelling enough to label you as mafia. On February 16 2010 23:43 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 19:33 MasterDana wrote:On February 16 2010 14:40 Chezinu wrote:
What does tredmasta, Phrujbaz, ohN, and MasterDana have in common?
They all abstain.
They all ignored my pm's.
They shall be on the mafia' hit list. lolwut. Abstained due to no real clear choice for presidency, and my question about how important a Mayor can be went unanswered, so I reverted to abstain. Pretty telling post, MasterDana. First time I see you posting something with substance since your candidacy. Also, pleading ignorance means you're either a very lazy townie, or mafia. Pleading ignorance is a very common mafia defense. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 19:33 MasterDana wrote:
Why did we lynch Empyrean? Going off of posting habits seems like a real stretch unless there's a hugggeeee difference. I haven't played any previous games, but reading Ver's post about Empyrean's posting habits didn't seem all that drastic. Different, of course, but enough to lynch? Not really. Alas, lynched anyways and a green lays dead. Was Ver wrong, or trying to mislead us? Regardless, I think most agree that Redtooth hanging Empyrean was a mistake for the Townies, if he is indeed supporting them. Here, you're trying to cast suspicion on both Ver and redtooth, with extremely weak argumentation. Mislead us into lynching a townie? Why would Ver want to do that, if he was mafia? Clearly, a mafia member would've preferred to lynch a mafia from the opposite team. Same goes for redtooth. So why make these weak accusations behind them? Because you're feeling the heat, and want to shift it to someone else. Again, this is scummy behavior; if you make a weak accusation, you're not only diverting attention from yourself and giving the appearance of someone who's contributing, you're also not committing to anything because the accusation is weak. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 19:33 MasterDana wrote:
Awkward collection of thoughts, but the point I'm trying to get across is that my faith in Redtooth as a pro-townie mayor is thin. Pardon the swear, but this couldn't be more half-assed. Trying to make yourself sound like the victim whose trust has been violated, who is ignorant of how he should vote and who expresses weak feelings of distrust like an injured deer... I don't buy it. What do you have to say for yourself, MasterDana? On February 17 2010 00:07 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 23:55 madnessman wrote:
Could someone explain to me why everybody is so certain Chezinu is DT and not a mafia member?! The only person that may be certain Chezinu is a DT is himself. The rest of us acknowledge the possibility that he's a DT. I for one will be waiting to hear from him tonight to see how he can back his claim up, after he has a chance to use his night ability.
|
bloodyc0bbler
+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2010 07:52 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
As the game as begun, it is time to get it started.
I, BloodyC0bbler, am running for the position of mayor.
I believe the town can easily win this if we work together, as a concise unit, and do so before the mafia can create their own plans. Action must happen now. My campaign is on a platform of strength. I believe I have the strength to help pull this town together. I can analyze clues, behaviour, and can help guide blues to where they should act. The more we work together, the less we have to lose. The first lynch at the moment, as there is nothing to really go on, I believe is moot unless someone gives themself away obviously. Therefore I would lynch the most inactive player, or in the case of someone giving themself away, that person. Any other choice should be pardon'd instantly.
Vote for unity, Vote for strength, Vote for bloodyc0bbler On February 14 2010 10:27 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 10:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'll be running for mayor/pardoner. It's always nice to have a special role, makes the game more interesting. If I am mayor, I will lynch whoever the town wants me to lynch and use my votes the way the town wants them used unless I strongly feel the town consensus is wrong, in which case I will do my best to justify my vote.
I don't really like the pardoner power to be honest, I guess I would only use it to save someone who I suspected/knew was blue or under some sort of special circumstance. My limited experience hurts me here, but can any more experienced players let me in on what kind of pro-town role the pardoner really holds? pardoner ability is really useful to stop bandwagons of no substance truth be told. Or if mayor decides to kill someone who is suspected to be innocent/not who they say they will/total left field sort of thing. On February 14 2010 11:17 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Based on Ver posting insanely helpful tips to people, I shall vote for him to be mayor. If he wants me dead, that's his choice. However wrong he may be. On February 14 2010 11:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:25 meeple wrote:On February 14 2010 11:17 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Based on Ver posting insanely helpful tips to people, I shall vote for him to be mayor. If he wants me dead, that's his choice. However wrong he may be. Unless I missed something... is Ver running for office? Most likely not, but hes posting in the best manner for one who should be in office, so for the moment he has my vote? On February 14 2010 11:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:43 Abenson wrote:
i think we should focus most on electing a non-mafia mayor right now o.o
seeing as you could be one of the horsemen, I think your right. On February 14 2010 11:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Ok, the KingPin has arrived. Time to stop this nonsense and get this game started.
First of all, I'm going to be brutally honest here. Some of you playing are newbies. That isn't to say you're bad, but more so that you haven't had the experience of playing a true cut throat game of Mafia. The last 2 games were honestly so bland - aka too much talking about clues, that it wasn't really that much high level strategy going on.
Like Ver said, talking too much about clues early is USELESS. Don't try to convince anyone that someone is Mafia based on clues for the first few days. It's nice to mention it, but do not make it a central point of focus. MTF and Camlito are the best 2 clue analyzers along with Plexa that we ever had. That was in Mafia 2 and it took a ton of planning + input from various people to even come to some of those conclusions. Chances are you won't be able to do much with clues this game unless you've got some additional proof. What I mean by this is catch someone on behavior analysis + clues + shoddy voting or motives. Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this.
I'm running for Mayor of course. But in the event I don't win, my vote is possibly going to Ver. The only reason I might not vote for him is because he has elected to kill BC which is just as bad as L/Zato wanting me dead. Our most valuable players should be saved unless it's blatantly obvious they are Mafia. There are 3 teams this game, don't even bother trying to murder all of our good players so soon.
Having a voice of reason in the elected position is the only reason I ran. Truth be told, from your post, and ver's I think the two of you should prob take it, and how do we say, not repeat qatols first game? On February 14 2010 11:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:51 Iaaan wrote:
So basically the Mayors lynch should be on someone useless, not an old gosu.
I hope not too many veteran players are Mafia, or the town is screwed ;d A mayor should lynch someone who is inactive, or someone who is so obviously mafia that even their own family would sell them out. Aside from that, people start talking, more voting alllright. On February 14 2010 12:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:56 Mystlord wrote:On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this.
Such elitism. Regardless, I'm still all for incorporating clues into Day 1 discussion. For instance, we now have a defense from you, which is good for building a profile, whether you're innocent or not. They are interesting to look at mystlord, but however, day 1 clues almost always end up being red herrings, and random accusations, even backed by clues aren't too good for the person doing them unless they end up being right. I learned that the hardway. On February 14 2010 13:56 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
L I wont spend time on day 1 clue analysis till like day 3, there is no point till then, i dont get why you love it so much On February 14 2010 13:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
my bad, that should be to redtooth not L, fast reading ftl On February 14 2010 14:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
your quote of
"
i don't care how unselfish you are but there is no way you could honestly say "oh that guy is playing well so i support him" when that guy is trying to kill you. greens/blues want town to win but they also want to be alive when they do win. he even voted for Ver in the voting thread to further create an image of SUUUUUPER TOWN-ALLY. he then faded into the shadows and we forgot all about him, instead choosing to focus on day 1 clue analysis."
I'm not going to focus on it now. Nor am i trying to fade into the shadows, observering is something that is needed right now On February 14 2010 15:30 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 15:24 Zato-1 wrote:On February 14 2010 15:01 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:
At this point, I'm all for citizen as mayor, last game he played extremely well, and he hasn't become involved in all of this Ace/Ver/L shaky clue analysis/finger pointing. Ver hasn't exactly been a major contributor to this latest galactic confrontation between Ace and L, iirc. I'd say redtooth and myself have been far more active in that regard- not that either of us is running for office. As to the elections, I'm undecided between I10f and L currently, though I'd seriously consider Ver if he presented a candidacy (which I believe he hasn't?). Ace doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone, and I've never played with citi.zen before. Chez... sorry man, promising to post exclusively coherent content is nice and all, but you should preach with the example rather than make promises. BloodyC0bbler's posts have inspired zero confidence in me so far... in fact, you had to look with a bloody magnifying glass to find any content in the post in which he announces his candidacy. Confidence is from ones following actions, not from random bickering. I10f has posted next to nothing for his candidacy yet is getting supporters? This is what makes one sketchy. He has votes, he has no platform past "i will lynch a previous red from another game" and bam he inspires confidence while hiding in the woodworks. All those who have so far fallen into support of him, or have voted for him are insanely suspect. Yes, my platform is next to nil, but what do you want me to do? Create a nice pretty strategy to get myself into office? Last time I did that, I got killed from the very town I was trying to lead. You can go back and read any of the games I have run, and yes i have presented a plan. But with the current setup of the game, my ideas aren't fool proof, or close to it. When I have that, I shall post it, or when I see obvious clues, I will post them as well. So yes, if you look at confidence, i currently see people bandwagon supporting and others trying to kill off veteran players on red herrings. If thats confidence, I am afraid for this town. On February 14 2010 15:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
ALSO NOTE:
Anyone bringing up previous games to justify ones actions in the current game should not be validated on that. If you are playing for town and analyze clues one way, being red does not mean you will analyze them the same way.
In the case of L vs Ace.
Yes as town, L nailed truthbringer.
If L is mafia this game, he would be trying to remove ace because is he is
A) a mafia member of another group
B) townie that could threaten his position
Yes, L could be a townie but he is still pushing to hard on day 1 to kill off one player based off clues. On February 14 2010 16:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 15:53 redtooth wrote:
i wish chezinu would be modkilled. don't want to waste a lynch on him but he's like a less funny 0cz3c - useless and distracting.
as for mayors: none of them have presented any reason to vote for them. l10f made what appeared at first to be a troll platform. as of now, neither Ace and L should be trusted too much, especially with the power of mayor.
that would leave citizen but i've yet to see either show any promise in the thread. i keep hearing good things about him but have yet to personally see it (i haven't read through the other mafia game) and the only thing i've seen so far from him is his promise to not trust anyone (duh...).
i would also refrain from pushing for Ver to be mayor and voting for him despite his lack of candidacy. it's not funny and it's really, really not smart. Simple, as of now there is a really narrow gap on how to vote us in. Each of us is most likely trying to figure out some method in which to push up to the top and win, as any candiate would. However, clues at this point IMO are not enough to warrant being voted in. A plan would be. I would go with this. Ace/L/Myself/whoever else is running, are all trying to figure out some little plan to put ourself above the rest. As of now, everything that I have come up with, although fun on paper, is insanely hard to actually accomplish, and very very easy to stop. Soon as I figure something out, Ill post it. On February 14 2010 16:08 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
As a note to quickstriker, out of say 6 people running, assume 1 from each family will be in the elections. Normally a family would put forth 1 possibly 2 members (this case not as safe as the other family is watching) so most likely 1 from each family, maybe one family put ahead 2. On February 14 2010 16:10 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
and on that last note, im hitting the sac. On February 15 2010 00:47 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 17:28 Bill Murray wrote:
after reading your alls posts, it is actually sort of easy to put people into groups of "blind faith and teamwork" which would be associated with mafia.
the only problem here is there seem to be multiple groups
L
Chezinu
redtooth
laaan
zato-1
bloodycobbler
ver
L
Mystlord
fulgrim
in my opinion are mafia, possibly not all in the same mafia, but that's my guess
i also think that bloodycobbler is the other mafia godfather As much as you've backpeddled as you have already, this post is still damning. You blindly list people as mafia, list off groups of people who support eachother (without actually lumping them in said groups), and claim I'm the other mafia gf. Yes youve backpeddled and said you believe L is the other one, however, that post indicates you know the identity of one GF already. It also speaks to your lack of knowledge of my playstyle. If I was the gf, the mayoral role would never be something I would personally want, as getting a blue role that is uncheckable is moot when I can already do that. That post either indicates you giving yourself as a mafia away, or that you really need to learn on how to structure your mafia game posts to now get yourself firmly on radars. On February 15 2010 00:49 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I should also add, if you believe that the mafia would elect me godfather, when i'm trying to get an elected position + a vet player who would most likely be killed if I didnt get the mayoral or pardoner position quickly, your not thinking. Let alone that the mafia team would elect me less than 24 hours into the game.
On February 15 2010 01:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 01:12 d3_crescentia wrote:
Also, why is BM pointing out who could/couldn't be GF right now, when it's a fact that GF is decided before the END of Day 1? Someone has seen the light On February 15 2010 01:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
annd just realized its time for work, be back in like 6ish hours, possibly 7 On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour On February 15 2010 09:17 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Although out of character from his last game, its something to be noted, but not 100% on.
However, those who are spending more time lurking than posting. I recommend starting to post, as inactivity, or just voting will get you noticed for all the wrong reasons. On February 15 2010 09:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:25 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour Explain how even super rudimentary linking is 'over' analyzing? Actually, explain what you mean by overanalyzing using specifics, because it seems like you're trying to discredit some of the only tangible work being done without actually dealing with any of the arguments. I discredit the fact that you have centered almost purely around ace? You spent time linking almost exclusively to him. You want him to be red, or just want him dead. However, instead had you spent time building themes for each killer then linked to multiple people based on that, its not as bad. I say this as, by pushing for one specific person on day 1 clues linking everything imaginable to them eventually you will get something that sticks. Do your connections make sense overall, Yes, could they all be red herrings however, Yes. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link and then off the most retarded or inactive of the bunch. You just seem to be pushing a vendetta overall however, it makes it harder to believe or follow. On February 15 2010 09:34 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Caller the issue with your plan is getting ahold of a real dt. Ideally yes, the town circle is formed by the bgs who are the only 100% for sure role when checked. You first need the mayor to get in contact with a dt, you also need to hope to god that not all bgs are red, hope the dt doesnt die, etc...
Once the dt has done his job, the circle is formed and the fun begins. Getting it started is the hard part.
On February 15 2010 09:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:32 meeple wrote:On February 15 2010 09:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:25 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour Explain how even super rudimentary linking is 'over' analyzing? Actually, explain what you mean by overanalyzing using specifics, because it seems like you're trying to discredit some of the only tangible work being done without actually dealing with any of the arguments. I discredit the fact that you have centered almost purely around ace? You spent time linking almost exclusively to him. You want him to be red, or just want him dead. However, instead had you spent time building themes for each killer then linked to multiple people based on that, its not as bad. I say this as, by pushing for one specific person on day 1 clues linking everything imaginable to them eventually you will get something that sticks. Do your connections make sense overall, Yes, could they all be red herrings however, Yes. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link and then off the most retarded or inactive of the bunch. You just seem to be pushing a vendetta overall however, it makes it harder to believe or follow. I sorta agree... I got caught in this type of trap myself, where I so firmly beleived in tredmasta's guilt based on what I thought was a strong clue and it turned out he was a vigilante. I see the clue connection, but I'm wary of the level of conviction you have in it. As mafia in the previous game, I was aware who that clue referred to, but I was surprised you thought tredmasta was a stronger connection than flamewheel91. But L has said many times he is perfectly willing to consider alternatives. Ace's aggressive defense, redtooth's inconsistent and in one case completely incorrect arguments, and Ace's refusal to refute the central point of L's accusation doesn't exactly help out. That screams out behaviourally that he is red  . He stand a very high chance of being mafia, and your point there is more reason to lynch him to me than the clues. Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:34 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:On February 15 2010 09:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:25 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour Explain how even super rudimentary linking is 'over' analyzing? Actually, explain what you mean by overanalyzing using specifics, because it seems like you're trying to discredit some of the only tangible work being done without actually dealing with any of the arguments. I discredit the fact that you have centered almost purely around ace? You spent time linking almost exclusively to him. You want him to be red, or just want him dead. However, instead had you spent time building themes for each killer then linked to multiple people based on that, its not as bad. I say this as, by pushing for one specific person on day 1 clues linking everything imaginable to them eventually you will get something that sticks. Do your connections make sense overall, Yes, could they all be red herrings however, Yes. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link and then off the most retarded or inactive of the bunch. You just seem to be pushing a vendetta overall however, it makes it harder to believe or follow. I think that while the connections could be red herrings, we should lynch whichever connection has generated the most discussion, not whichever connection links to the most irritating or inactive poster. What good does it serve us to lynch someone who is connected to the clues but hasn't created any controversy, or any meaningful argument? We don't gain any information about other players, because no other players have made arguments about them. Lynching an inactive who hasn't posted a defense, or who no one has posted in defense of, is akin to picking a lynch name out of a hat, regardless of which way it flips its not leading us anywhere. My reasoning for wanting to avoid day 1 clues for now is basically this. Say we red herring someone, they die and flip townie, the persons defense will be "whoops my bad day 1 clues" If he does get a red (note this could be a lucky guess or an actual link, we wont know for certain unless those "links" disappear from future posts) the town will have a sense of trust in the person that isn't neccesarily earned. Its luck. Lynching someone off a list of inactives, or inactives that fit the themes of mafia's we have established does two things. It removes someone from a list who was considered red, It removes someone who isn't contributing and helps prevent mafia from hiding among inactives. I am all for lynching someone day 1 based off behaviour, and would say that you can make strong cases based off clue accusations on why you should lynch someone (reactions tell alot). Just lynching off of day 1 clues for the seemingly strongest connection seems strained. On February 15 2010 09:47 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:32 meeple wrote:On February 15 2010 09:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:25 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
[quote]
It is an important point.
However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done.
Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people.
Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B.
As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone.
Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not.
Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation.
Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc...
Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour Explain how even super rudimentary linking is 'over' analyzing? Actually, explain what you mean by overanalyzing using specifics, because it seems like you're trying to discredit some of the only tangible work being done without actually dealing with any of the arguments. I discredit the fact that you have centered almost purely around ace? You spent time linking almost exclusively to him. You want him to be red, or just want him dead. However, instead had you spent time building themes for each killer then linked to multiple people based on that, its not as bad. I say this as, by pushing for one specific person on day 1 clues linking everything imaginable to them eventually you will get something that sticks. Do your connections make sense overall, Yes, could they all be red herrings however, Yes. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link and then off the most retarded or inactive of the bunch. You just seem to be pushing a vendetta overall however, it makes it harder to believe or follow. I sorta agree... I got caught in this type of trap myself, where I so firmly beleived in tredmasta's guilt based on what I thought was a strong clue and it turned out he was a vigilante. I see the clue connection, but I'm wary of the level of conviction you have in it. As mafia in the previous game, I was aware who that clue referred to, but I was surprised you thought tredmasta was a stronger connection than flamewheel91. But L has said many times he is perfectly willing to consider alternatives. Ace's aggressive defense, redtooth's inconsistent and in one case completely incorrect arguments, and Ace's refusal to refute the central point of L's accusation doesn't exactly help out. That screams out behaviourally that he is red . He stand a very high chance of being mafia, and your point there is more reason to lynch him to me than the clues. On February 15 2010 09:34 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:On February 15 2010 09:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:25 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour Explain how even super rudimentary linking is 'over' analyzing? Actually, explain what you mean by overanalyzing using specifics, because it seems like you're trying to discredit some of the only tangible work being done without actually dealing with any of the arguments. I discredit the fact that you have centered almost purely around ace? You spent time linking almost exclusively to him. You want him to be red, or just want him dead. However, instead had you spent time building themes for each killer then linked to multiple people based on that, its not as bad. I say this as, by pushing for one specific person on day 1 clues linking everything imaginable to them eventually you will get something that sticks. Do your connections make sense overall, Yes, could they all be red herrings however, Yes. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link and then off the most retarded or inactive of the bunch. You just seem to be pushing a vendetta overall however, it makes it harder to believe or follow. I think that while the connections could be red herrings, we should lynch whichever connection has generated the most discussion, not whichever connection links to the most irritating or inactive poster. What good does it serve us to lynch someone who is connected to the clues but hasn't created any controversy, or any meaningful argument? We don't gain any information about other players, because no other players have made arguments about them. Lynching an inactive who hasn't posted a defense, or who no one has posted in defense of, is akin to picking a lynch name out of a hat, regardless of which way it flips its not leading us anywhere. My reasoning for wanting to avoid day 1 clues for now is basically this. Say we red herring someone, they die and flip townie, the persons defense will be "whoops my bad day 1 clues" If he does get a red (note this could be a lucky guess or an actual link, we wont know for certain unless those "links" disappear from future posts) the town will have a sense of trust in the person that isn't neccesarily earned. Its luck. Lynching someone off a list of inactives, or inactives that fit the themes of mafia's we have established does two things. It removes someone from a list who was considered red, It removes someone who isn't contributing and helps prevent mafia from hiding among inactives. I am all for lynching someone day 1 based off behaviour, and would say that you can make strong cases based off clue accusations on why you should lynch someone (reactions tell alot). Just lynching off of day 1 clues for the seemingly strongest connection seems strained. I don't understand your reply, does "he" refer to L or Ace and everything from "your point" onward seems like it's missing a few words He refers to Ace. Ace's defense of the accusations is more scummy than the accusation itself. However, as L and Ace always argue back and forth, perhaps hes just sick of defending himself from L? On February 15 2010 10:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:38 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:25 L wrote:On February 15 2010 09:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 09:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 09:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 15 2010 08:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED or, why I now agree with L Initially I made the mistake of strategizing as I would in a game with 1 mafia family against 1 town and a relatively small number of mafia (say 8 or less) I agreed with Ver thinking "clue analysis will become stronger as clue profiles build on mafia." I know that in Incognitos last game, he used a set order of clues. The first day was myself and keit, then derfboy, phrujbaz, etc. etc. Eventually it repeated and went back to keit, this made the clues on him much stronger. By about the 3rd or 4th day, the town now had a much stronger clue profile on a single mafia and the town could have lynched him a bit more securely. In this game, there are 20 mafia. I assume kills will overlap (meaning Mafia and Yakuza both hit the same target) and medics will eventually do their thing, meaning we might not even get 6 clues a day. If there were exactly 6 kills a night, by the 4th day we would have a "clue profile" with multiple clue sets on a single mafia member. Either we ignore clues completely because of this, or we start analyzing them from Day 1 onward. Unless of course, Incognito decides not to go in a specific order, meaning that we might get multiple clues on a single mafia very early and much more often. But I think that is unlikely. It is an important point. However, as someone who likes clue analyzing. Let me give you an example of day 1 clues should be done. Discussed (yay) but don't actively lynch someone based off of it, its not reliable. You need time to build your profiles of people. Day 1 clues start the process of building mafia profiles. You can usually easy pin in family games, which family is responsible for which killings. You then label them mafia family A, and mafia family B. As clues are given, you put themes under each mafia heading. The more time that goes by, the more you have, the better your chances of linking to someone. Using day 1 clues, you have things that are red herrings, as well as some things that are clues. I enjoy seeing L looking at them, but he looks more like hes pushing to get ace lynched than actually look at the clues. The whole theme of horsemen (at the moment to me) is moot. Things like darkness, or moonlight/blinding, could indeed be clues. However, without more days worth of clues, its harder to know if it is or not. Its why Camlito and MTF post very little analysis until they have solid leads. Until then its wild speculation. Chances are that incog will just link more than 3 members of a family per night, or hell, we are getting 6 mafia per night in clues anyway, we could get really lucky on one of them later, or he could reuse one from day 1 in day 2, etc... Day 1 clues are deff important, but moreso down the line than now. My argument is that it will take so long to build clue profiles that it will become useless. Doing things like seperating killers into families is all well and good though. Thing is, in a game with this many killers, for all we know, incog could be going 4-5 members a family in clue sets, or he could be doing one per kill, etc... As people die off you also get a good indicator of whos red so on and so forth. Its not a fast process in clues, it never is. Over analyzing things like L is, can pay off for sure, but it can also create bandwagons that off us faster. The greatest thing it has done so far this game is get alot of people talking, and which has given us alot of insight into peoples behaviour Explain how even super rudimentary linking is 'over' analyzing? Actually, explain what you mean by overanalyzing using specifics, because it seems like you're trying to discredit some of the only tangible work being done without actually dealing with any of the arguments. I discredit the fact that you have centered almost purely around ace? You spent time linking almost exclusively to him. You want him to be red, or just want him dead. However, instead had you spent time building themes for each killer then linked to multiple people based on that, its not as bad. I say this as, by pushing for one specific person on day 1 clues linking everything imaginable to them eventually you will get something that sticks. Do your connections make sense overall, Yes, could they all be red herrings however, Yes. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link and then off the most retarded or inactive of the bunch. You just seem to be pushing a vendetta overall however, it makes it harder to believe or follow. Purely around Ace? I've named Ace, Mystlord and Empyrean, and if you bothered to read anything since last night you'd know that I'm most certain of Empyrean. The fact that I spent so much time talking about Ace's clues were because other people decided to do things like you did and attempt to discredit clue analysis without actually looking at the content of the analysis itself. Once more, and its the last time I'll ask you. What specific clue link was overanalyzed? To add to the question; As a prior host, you should understand the basics of clue creation, so why did you ignore my request for specificity when you're one of the best placed players to deal with it in the face of my repeated attempt to get people to challenge the validity of the interpretation itself? Perhaps finally; Why tell other people to compile lists? You aren't a shitty player. Make them yourself. I'm pretty sick of people giving halfhearted statements like yours praising a path of action then not doing any work in that path. I would rather instead see a list of people matching descriptions of each link Make one. I did the majority of the work for you already. Feel free to make yourself useful. You may have named three people, but you have centered most of your arguments around Ace, and even stated that you prefered him over mystlord (and myst was your second pick). I may have missed a post somewhere of you re ranking, however I do agree Emp is a good find. I would actually label him as the person who kills kennigit if I had to. On February 15 2010 10:52 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Well L, cause you asked me to. This is a rough outline of how I would link people on day 1 analysis. I don't think that much of it is spot on, but after viewing your bit on Emp, I strongly agree he fits insanely well for the Radiant being part. Note: I did not use spellcheck on anything. Clue Analysis: Day 1 Firstly, there are assumptions to this list. Each mafia has two family members involved with the killings (two for each family). There could easily be more. The links I will also be centering on will be around themes specific to each included killer. IE. Because it was mentioned that it was dark 8 times does not mean that it is a clue, just word choice. Mafia A – The horsemen “Sure enough, the two horsemen began slowly approaching the town. They did not rush across the field, but drifted in and out of the shadows, taking cover from the shadows cast by the clouds.” “he horses neighed, and the first horseman charged dreamflower, spear aimed low at her gut. Dreamflower was blinded from the moonlight that reflected off the horseman, and was a little slow to react.” “Noticing Qatol sneak quietly into the barn to his right, the horseman charged and leaped through the thin walls of the barn, landing straight on Qatol, who died instantly.” “The house immediately combusted into flames as a torch flew through the window, igniting the oil-soaked residence. dreamflower’s last thoughts were confusion, for she thought that the torch flew through the window opposite the two horsemen.” “But his path was suddenly blocked by one of the horsemen” “He heard a scowl, as the horseman turned around and fled the other way, riding as if he were either blinded or drunk.” Mafia B – The pyro, psychopath, and the radiant. “The house immediately combusted into flames as a torch flew through the window, igniting the oil-soaked residence. dreamflower’s last thoughts were confusion, for she thought that the torch flew through the window opposite the two horsemen.” “but they quickly retreated back to the safety of their homes once they heard gunshots and a hyena-like noise outside.” “The crazed psychopathic noises approached swiftly, and Incognito had no time to react as a shadowy figure leapt from a roof above and ripped his head off, still laughing as it raced down another alley leading out of the town square.” “However, at the end of the alleyway, he noticed a light getting brighter and brighter in magnitude. He heard a scowl, as the horseman turned around and fled the other way, riding as if he were either blinded or drunk. Kennigit emerged from behind the wine barrel, thinking that an angel had saved the town. Unfortunately, Kennigit did not find favor from the now radiant creature, and exploded into a shower of blue light. A few moments later, however, and the town was once again consumed with darkness.” AnalysisMafia A I believe that there is possibly three members of this family used. The first fits the theme of a charging horsemen who when struck with light at night can blind someone. Note. This person should be trained in the usage of a spear, or be wearing something reflective. I believe CynanMachae fits that description from the picture he has in his profile found http://www.teamliquid.net/userfiles/23719.jpg?1265785651It also links to Ace as per L has stated based on his profile picture and Quote. I believe Cynan better fits the description, as well, deathscythe uses a scythe not a spear. Seems like a mistake that wouldn’t be overlooked. The second mafia member from this family I believe linked to, is the cackler. It is also who I believe killed qatol. He Cackles, which to me is an odd way to describe laughter, he observes qatol quickly, breaks through a thin wall, and kills him instantly. This is someone who to me would be insane/mad and dangerous. I think the best fit for this is Mystlord – He has a quotation made by the joker in his profile, and has someone who looks well, insane as a profile picture. Madnessman – His name implies he is mad, as well as a profile picture that stresses having guts, and a quote saying “no pain no gain”. As he lept through a wall, I would say this covers pain for gain, and cackling for mad. The third one I have linked is Scamp – A horsemen blocked Kennigit randomly, much like his profile has a cat blocking a gutter. Mafia B Mystlord – He best fits to my quick look for the fire reference. I may have missed a profile relating to fire, but I believe his was the one that best stood out for it. Second mafia I am unsure on, other than it was someone who uses guns, makes animal noises and was a shadowy figure. This last bit means he might not be human per se. If I had to guess I would go with Masterdana for having a dog in his profile and references to fps games. The last one would be the radiant mafia. After looking at the information given, I will agree with L that this sounds a lot like empryean and could also link to zona for his fucked up picture, however empryean is a must stronger link. On February 15 2010 10:55 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I also advise everyone to look at the people voting for citi.zen closely. He has not been that active, and posted very little on reason on why he should be in office, and he is easily winning position for mayor at the moment. This is insanely suspect behaviour on the voters. Much like the blind support I10f got last night, this blind support is similarly interesting. On February 15 2010 11:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 10:58 meeple wrote:On February 15 2010 10:55 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I also advise everyone to look at the people voting for citi.zen closely. He has not been that active, and posted very little on reason on why he should be in office, and he is easily winning position for mayor at the moment. This is insanely suspect behaviour on the voters. Much like the blind support I10f got last night, this blind support is similarly interesting. I could understand that he would get support from his analysis in Incog's last name, but 3 of those people: Fishball MasterDana dozko Weren't in that game, so in the very least, these people probably shouldn't blindly trust them. Thing is, although DrH died, he did very well for the first while as well. It seems reasonable that he would get similar support from players but isn't. Blind support can critically destroy a town. People have to see how people are playing now, and compare to previous games to see habits people do as town/mafia. Not to base a vote for. On February 15 2010 12:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 12:21 L wrote:On February 15 2010 10:52 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Well L, cause you asked me to. This is a rough outline of how I would link people on day 1 analysis. I don't think that much of it is spot on, but after viewing your bit on Emp, I strongly agree he fits insanely well for the Radiant being part. Note: I did not use spellcheck on anything. Clue Analysis: Day 1 Firstly, there are assumptions to this list. Each mafia has two family members involved with the killings (two for each family). There could easily be more. The links I will also be centering on will be around themes specific to each included killer. IE. Because it was mentioned that it was dark 8 times does not mean that it is a clue, just word choice. Mafia A – The horsemen “Sure enough, the two horsemen began slowly approaching the town. They did not rush across the field, but drifted in and out of the shadows, taking cover from the shadows cast by the clouds.” “he horses neighed, and the first horseman charged dreamflower, spear aimed low at her gut. Dreamflower was blinded from the moonlight that reflected off the horseman, and was a little slow to react.” “Noticing Qatol sneak quietly into the barn to his right, the horseman charged and leaped through the thin walls of the barn, landing straight on Qatol, who died instantly.” “The house immediately combusted into flames as a torch flew through the window, igniting the oil-soaked residence. dreamflower’s last thoughts were confusion, for she thought that the torch flew through the window opposite the two horsemen.” “But his path was suddenly blocked by one of the horsemen” “He heard a scowl, as the horseman turned around and fled the other way, riding as if he were either blinded or drunk.” Mafia B – The pyro, psychopath, and the radiant. “The house immediately combusted into flames as a torch flew through the window, igniting the oil-soaked residence. dreamflower’s last thoughts were confusion, for she thought that the torch flew through the window opposite the two horsemen.” “but they quickly retreated back to the safety of their homes once they heard gunshots and a hyena-like noise outside.” “The crazed psychopathic noises approached swiftly, and Incognito had no time to react as a shadowy figure leapt from a roof above and ripped his head off, still laughing as it raced down another alley leading out of the town square.” “However, at the end of the alleyway, he noticed a light getting brighter and brighter in magnitude. He heard a scowl, as the horseman turned around and fled the other way, riding as if he were either blinded or drunk. Kennigit emerged from behind the wine barrel, thinking that an angel had saved the town. Unfortunately, Kennigit did not find favor from the now radiant creature, and exploded into a shower of blue light. A few moments later, however, and the town was once again consumed with darkness.” AnalysisMafia A I believe that there is possibly three members of this family used. The first fits the theme of a charging horsemen who when struck with light at night can blind someone. Note. This person should be trained in the usage of a spear, or be wearing something reflective. I believe CynanMachae fits that description from the picture he has in his profile found http://www.teamliquid.net/userfiles/23719.jpg?1265785651It also links to Ace as per L has stated based on his profile picture and Quote. I believe Cynan better fits the description, as well, deathscythe uses a scythe not a spear. Seems like a mistake that wouldn’t be overlooked. The second mafia member from this family I believe linked to, is the cackler. It is also who I believe killed qatol. He Cackles, which to me is an odd way to describe laughter, he observes qatol quickly, breaks through a thin wall, and kills him instantly. This is someone who to me would be insane/mad and dangerous. I think the best fit for this is Mystlord – He has a quotation made by the joker in his profile, and has someone who looks well, insane as a profile picture. Madnessman – His name implies he is mad, as well as a profile picture that stresses having guts, and a quote saying “no pain no gain”. As he lept through a wall, I would say this covers pain for gain, and cackling for mad. The third one I have linked is Scamp – A horsemen blocked Kennigit randomly, much like his profile has a cat blocking a gutter. Mafia B Mystlord – He best fits to my quick look for the fire reference. I may have missed a profile relating to fire, but I believe his was the one that best stood out for it. Second mafia I am unsure on, other than it was someone who uses guns, makes animal noises and was a shadowy figure. This last bit means he might not be human per se. If I had to guess I would go with Masterdana for having a dog in his profile and references to fps games. The last one would be the radiant mafia. After looking at the information given, I will agree with L that this sounds a lot like empryean and could also link to zona for his fucked up picture, however empryean is a must stronger link. I have issues with your analysis of the clues for Mafia A, as you've called them. The persona you've established, specifically the 'horseman who blinds with light" is inaccurate. Not only does the horseman blind, but he is blinded himself during paragraph 2. This double take on the same theme is massive, and is pretty much the EXACT same format that was used to introduce truthbringer's chaingun. Additionally, the clues aren't clear on who jumped through the wall, but from the flow of text, it seems that it is the first horseman who does; the other stays back and laughs. I could be wrong here on two counts; it isn't certain that the horseman in para 2 is the same as the first one, but it seems odd that blindness as a theme would be repeated, no? That said, granted the ambiguous nature of which qualities are ascribed to which horseman, its entirely possible that you're 100% right regarding someone here and that Ace is the other horseman, which is something I worried about while initially looking at the clues. This uncertainty in attribution is why I think Emp is the more assured cluetell, but I'm still not really done thinking about the risk/reward profile of lynching him vs Ace granted the information disparity that we'd gain from killing one over the other I don't entirely agree with your analysis of Mafia B either; Mystlord seems like a far better candidate for the rooftop killer granted the weapon and location of the picture. The link to fire is one of those perennially used ones that leads to herrings, so I wouldn't try to go fire-> someone without other links. If you read my link to Emp, you'd know there's a fire element there too. I'm pretty certain that most of the Mafia B clues need more fleshing out before we can be accurate with them, with the exception of the angel. My issue with mystlord being used as the rooftop killer is that you hear the sounds of gunfire. As the woman from his profile picture has some form of blade, it seems to destroy that point. I could be horribly wrong, but its my own take on it. However mystlord does link in multiple locations. On February 15 2010 15:46 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
As a note from all this nonsense. I am heading to bed, and waking up to jump on a plane. I will be back hopefully just before voting closes, but may not. As such I am going to change my vote to abstain for now as I don't really want anyone currently running to win. On February 17 2010 02:52 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
For anyone in the general know how, and medics feel free to not prot me. However, Ver has tried to guess my role, as well as actively pm people this game. Both are actions Ver rarely takes. Read earlier in the thread and you will find that he "RC'd" to BM. I will spend some time once ive showered going over his posts and analyzing him, but he is not as safe an option to prot any more than I am. On February 17 2010 03:25 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 03:07 Phrujbaz wrote:
Ver PMed me but to be honest it seemed like a good town player hunting an inactive rather than anything out of the ordinary. I have him pegged as "good player" because of it, I wouldn't make the link to "Mafia". Maybe you haven't played enough. But Ver does not like playing mafia in Pm's typically, nor do I. Just showerd, so I will go compare his posting to previous games, but he is playing very as per his normal play. On February 17 2010 04:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 04:12 Versatile wrote:
i've only been able to get through the last 15 pages or so, does anyone know the page the first day post is on? there's just so much spamming going on. if it's a hassle don't worry, i can just continue to look through posts later today.
i'll wait to make analysis based on the next day's post/ what comes of this night. i hate basing analysis on clues primarily, but i haven't played with many of you so i think i determining guilt/innocence through interpreting behavior at first would be a mistake.
i would have to agree that the spamming is a serious issue. there have been some accusations made that got lost pages ago because of this, and i haven't even had the chance to read everything yet. it leads to a lack of follow up because people can just pretend they never saw it. hopefully (some) people will change their posting behavior. First night post is day 10 first day post is page 63 On February 17 2010 04:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
err day 10 = page 10
|
Fulgrim
+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2010 12:34 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 10:48 Mystlord wrote:
Some thoughts on what I've read (I might be forgetting some stuff):
I think that clues are definitely important pre-Day 3, but we shouldn't lynch on them, rather they should be used to get everyone discussing. Lynching based purely off of clues is completely retarded early in the game because there's nothing backing anything up, and in a game like this, where we have a lot of variety, they could point to someone completely different, and we'd be none the wiser.
That said, we should be getting everyone to participate in the discussion. There's nothing worse than inactives, which, as Ver pointed out, ultimately hurts the town as they look just as suspicious as the mafia, which leads to wasted lynches and random lynches.
And as for L's suggestion to lynch Chezinu Day 1, I don't think that's a good idea. Last time that was tried (t_co), it absolutely did nothing. At the very least we need something other than "a lot of posts" for a valid lynch. Give us "inactives" a chance to speak lol, its only been a few hours. (was at an awesome new years party) So as people have pointed out before, clues are important. They will help us catch mafia, HOWEVER they should not be the sole deciding factor on a lynch in the early game, and the lynch should definitely not be random. We need a reason to get someone, not just because they were picked out of a list. After reading over the 7 pages you guys made in like 2 hours, I think that I'm going to vote for Ver, because it seems that he would lead the town in the right direction, having the best posts so far. On February 14 2010 12:40 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Ok, the KingPin has arrived. Time to stop this nonsense and get this game started.
First of all, I'm going to be brutally honest here. Some of you playing are newbies. That isn't to say you're bad, but more so that you haven't had the experience of playing a true cut throat game of Mafia. The last 2 games were honestly so bland - aka too much talking about clues, that it wasn't really that much high level strategy going on.
Like Ver said, talking too much about clues early is USELESS. Don't try to convince anyone that someone is Mafia based on clues for the first few days. It's nice to mention it, but do not make it a central point of focus. MTF and Camlito are the best 2 clue analyzers along with Plexa that we ever had. That was in Mafia 2 and it took a ton of planning + input from various people to even come to some of those conclusions. Chances are you won't be able to do much with clues this game unless you've got some additional proof. What I mean by this is catch someone on behavior analysis + clues + shoddy voting or motives. Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this.
I'm running for Mayor of course. But in the event I don't win, my vote is possibly going to Ver. The only reason I might not vote for him is because he has elected to kill BC which is just as bad as L/Zato wanting me dead. Our most valuable players should be saved unless it's blatantly obvious they are Mafia. There are 3 teams this game, don't even bother trying to murder all of our good players so soon.
Ace you really need to give people more incentive if you expect them to vote for you. You should try and post something with more substance, then just "I'M ACE VOTE FOR ME". Some healthy mafia accusations never hurt anyone, I agree that clues aren't the most helpful early game as you can easily screw up, but its not any worse then just lynching a random player. On February 14 2010 12:57 Fulgrim wrote:
So whats different about this game then our previous games is that the mafia want to USE our DT's and medics, and not kill them. Just throwing this idea out there for discussion: What would happen if one of our DT's revealed themselves? What would the mafia do? Waste a hit on them when they will probably be receiving medic protection? I doubt it. Any thoughts about this? On February 14 2010 13:26 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 13:20 l10f wrote:
Hmm, it looks like I won't be getting the mayor spot so easily! How about this, if I am elected mayor, instead of going on my vengeful rampage and lynching the people responsible for my quick death last game, I will lynch CHEZINU. You want to vote me now, don't you? Good because that would have been me... Sorry l10f =( On February 14 2010 14:20 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 14:18 Faronel wrote:
I think Ace was right... It's kind of a RISK like game with mini alliances where the town acts like a mafia family with kp of 1. There's definitely some intrigue here.
So just to clear this up...
we have 5 people contending for mayor?
Ace, L, Citizen, l10f, meeple, and Ver.
Right now everyone has 1 vote except for Ace and Ver who have 2 votes.
I don't think Ver actually said he was running yet, but if he does he has my vote currently. On February 15 2010 09:18 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 17:28 Bill Murray wrote:
after reading your alls posts, it is actually sort of easy to put people into groups of "blind faith and teamwork" which would be associated with mafia.
the only problem here is there seem to be multiple groups
L
Chezinu
redtooth
laaan
zato-1
bloodycobbler
ver
L
Mystlord
fulgrim
in my opinion are mafia, possibly not all in the same mafia, but that's my guess
i also think that bloodycobbler is the other mafia godfather thanks Bill, I don't think i've posted more then 4 times yet. I am going to switch my vote from Ver to Dr.h because I haven't seen anything that Ver said, that would mean that he is running, and Dr.h appears to be similar in approach to this game, along with some good posts thus far. All the other candidates I have a hard time trusting. On February 15 2010 09:45 Fulgrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:37 Caller wrote:On February 15 2010 09:34 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Caller the issue with your plan is getting ahold of a real dt. Ideally yes, the town circle is formed by the bgs who are the only 100% for sure role when checked. You first need the mayor to get in contact with a dt, you also need to hope to god that not all bgs are red, hope the dt doesnt die, etc...
Once the dt has done his job, the circle is formed and the fun begins. Getting it started is the hard part.
That's just it though: in this game the DT doesn't have to worry about dying as much purely because Mafia has a fixed, low KP, and we have medics. Suppose a DT roleclaims publicly that he is a DT. The mafias can't afford to hit him in the event that he is an actual DT because they will lose a KP that would be better served hitting an opposing mafia. More importantly, since mafia don't have to kill town to win, they don't need to hunt down all the blue roles immediately-in fact, they would like to have a DT to give them role checks to narrow down their search for the opposing mafia. So there's no real need for the DT to fear, especially because we have enough medics to negate any deaths. I already explained why its unlikely for mafia to pose as a DT purely because there's too much risk and not enough reward for the mafia team because there are two mafias. The game changes completely in this scenario so a lot more can be done than in a normal town vs. one mafia game. I was actually going to post a similar idea but caller beat me too it. I think that our DT's shouldn't be in alot of danger this game because mafia want to use the DT's not kill them. (unless they are trying to eliminate the town). I think our focus now should be towards getting one or two confirmed DT's so they can start a circle of trust with townies they role-check. This would allow the town a greater sense of security, because the mafia wouldn't waste their time on medic protected DT's and confirmed townies. On February 15 2010 09:51 Fulgrim wrote:Blatantly copied from flamewheel in the voting thread: Vote Tally for Mayor/Pardoner Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 09:41 flamewheel91 wrote:
Vote Tally for Mayor/Pardoner
BloodyC0bbler Votes: 0
Chezinu
citi.zen Votes: 7
Chenzinu
Fishball
Faronel
DoctorHelvetica
MasterDana
Chezinu
dozko
[NyC]HoBbes
789
l10f Votes: 1
Malongo
DoctorHelvetica
meeple Votes: 0
Bill Murray
Ver Votes: 4
BloodyC0bbler
Fulgrim
Bill Murray
Amber[LighT]
Vivi57
Ace Votes: 2
Caller
Abenson
redtooth Votes: 1
Chezinu
Chezinu
L Votes: 5
Iaaan
~OpZ~
Madnessman
Zato-1
Scamp
DoctorHelvetica Votes: 2
citi.zen
Fulgrim
Abstain
sidesprang
l10f
redtooth
Ace
Mystlord
Ver
Nikoner
ShoCkeyy
QuickStriker
johnnyspazz
Phrujbaz
So it appears that Citi.zen is in the lead with 7 votes and then L with 5. I am a little concerned with voting for citi.zen solely based on his last game (which admittedly was well done). It is interesting that many candidates seem almost ignored completely by the votes, and assuming some mafia have voted yet, it seems that the votes are polarized in a few areas. Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 13:07 Fulgrim wrote:On February 15 2010 12:29 Ace wrote:
ok cool, no problem. Just make sure that in the event of my death you offer yourself up for lynching when I flip green ok? People need to get one idea into their heads: this is not like any of the other mafia games. When someone is lynched, its going to be alot harder to analyze the voters, and the people who pushed for their death. If a player flips red, that could mean that the voters are: a) town, and their suspicions were right or b) mafia trying to kill off the other family if the player flips green or blue, in all the other games, we could assume that there are pretty good chances that the players who voted to lynch them were mafia. HOWEVER in this game, the mafia don't all know each other, coupled with the fact the mafia are trying to hit red just as hard as the town, I think this would make the accusers have equal chance of being red or green. Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 14:00 Fulgrim wrote:On February 15 2010 13:57 SugiuraMidori wrote:
I told you why I'm abstaining... they're all hooligans!!
And it gets OLD to see vet players always take mayor pardoner.. what's the freaking point, let some new players learn how to play the game.
Also.. edited the last post to show it in count order, and placed old post in spoiler so it's preserved.
Removed the mods from the counts as well... I think abstentions hurt the town more then a vote for a bad candidate. Not only are you not giving input to the town's direction, you are denying the town information about yourself. I would encourage abstainers to change their vote to a candidate before the end of the election. (not directed at you sugiura, just abstainers in general, as we appear to have a lot of them) Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 14:13 Fulgrim wrote:On February 15 2010 14:10 johnnyspazz wrote:On February 15 2010 14:07 d3_crescentia wrote:
We newer players had games before these to learn a bit... some of us did very well; others, not so much =[ Though, I will agree that they're all hooligans. i can safely say i barely learned anything from my last game lol It was inactivity guys, luckily this game doesn't seem to have that problem. Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 23:39 Fulgrim wrote:On February 15 2010 23:35 Abenson wrote:
It's time i posted something useful :D
As of now, if I were the mafia I would just sit back and relax while the town kills each other (like ver said), so therefore the correct actions for town would be to use the power of pm's (?) and also check up on the extremely inactive people.
I also believe that analyzing player's behavior from past games will benefit us greatly, since it's easy to compare the posts, especially if the player is veteran (Ace, Bloodycobbler, Caller... etc.) According to the Mini Mafia games, Ace tends to be a dick and flame whenever he is a townie... but then again veterans have tons of experience so they can act like whatever role they want.
Another notable thing is Chezinu, who, in mini mafia III was actually somewhat calm when compared to the way he is behaving right now.
I believe that ridding the mafia of a veteran player will benefit us greatly, so I think we should all go to the past games and start analyzing the vets :D
This doesn't make much sense, because the mafia are trying to kill the other mafia, not the other townies. Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 23:44 Fulgrim wrote:On February 15 2010 15:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 15:16 Ace wrote:On February 15 2010 15:04 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Information:
If flip red we can analyze:
Vocal Supporters
Who voted for you for mayor, particularly while giving little reason
Vocal accusers (L, Myself, laaan) are very likely not in the same mafia family as you
People trying to distract attention from accusations toward you without offering a real argument
A relatively large amount of posts to analyze from the perspective of a mafia from a specific family
If you flip green, it's fair to analyze:
Vocal accusers seem more suspicious
Voters for the most vocal accusers
People who suddenly bandwagon against you late in the thread/without reason If I flip red you can't analyze my vocal supporters. There aren't any. No one has supported me so far, only people who have said you guys may be wrong. That isn't support. It doesn't matter if you're not in the same family - you'd still be suspect. Who has tried to distract attention from this argument? List them please. For the very last time, you can't analyze my posts. In fact before you even try and get me killed it might be a wise idea and analyze them now to see what you can find. And by analyze I don't mean "hey guys, look what Ace said" but more akin to what links if any you can see to other people. I ask this sincerely because before you try and kill me on the basis I'm Mafia you should do this BEFORE offing me to make sure you have some clue of what you are doing. Needless to say I think you're so off tangent so this will hopefully show you why you're wrong. Now if you lynch me when I'm innocent you don't even get any more information based on my last paragraph. You have nothing to link me on. Nothing. you'd start the next day with the SAME information as the last. If you can prove me wrong, do it now by examining my posts and see what you can find that is going to be so mind blowing to the town it gets us a path to the Mafia. You said yourself if you flip green, that myself/L/laaan are likely mafia. Saying there is no information to be gleaned from your death either way is silly. I wouldn't call ver a vocal supporter of you, but like redtooth said. If you are mafia, your allies will likely not vehemently defend you but perhaps try to discourage the use of clue analysis. Ver made a post a while back saying that "anyone discouraging clue usage is probably innocent" and it seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you tried to discourage redtooth from making anti-ver posts with your PM to him. redtooth just now has added a fair amount to the case for you being scum. You're saying my suspicion isn't based on any analysis, but I've stated many times it has to do with your dodging L's questions, being unwilling to provide alternative solutions, and the biggest basis of your argument being "fuck you I'm ace i dont need to defend myself cuz im ace" Did you guys read my last post about this? If Ace flips red or green you have an equal chance of being town or mafia. This game is different from the last games because the mafia families: a) aren't trying to kill townies, but each other b) don't know who the other family is So if a person is really pushing for someone's death, and that someone flips red, that wouldn't clear the accuser in my mind. They could be from the other mafia family and got a lucky hit, OR just a townie who got a lucky hit. Scenario 2: The someone flips green, their accuser could be a mafia who got a lynch wrong, OR a townie who got a lynch wrong. I'm having a real hard time seeing how we would analyze deaths of lynch candidates. Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 23:46 Fulgrim wrote:On February 15 2010 23:44 Abenson wrote:
I think it makes perfect sense...
It if because of precisely that the mafia has to kill each other that they don't have to do much.
There is no need to really participate in the town discussion, since the logical way for mafia to win is to look and analyze clues, decide which one of the clues point to the other mafia, and kill them all.
I'm just trying to think like a mafia... I apologize if I'm thinking illogically or like a noob.
Its ok, but I think the mafia would be very involved in the discussion, so they can influence the lynch votes to avoid hitting their members, and to hit the other mafia's members. If they have enough influence they could effectively have an extra KP. That's just my opinion of it. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 06:41 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 06:26 Caller wrote:On February 16 2010 06:24 Nikoner wrote:
How do you expect DTs to come forward, they haven't even had the chance to do anything during the night yet. Only reason to come forward as a DT today would be if you're the godfather of a mafia so you could potentially infiltrate townie circles, and even then, it's way risky. Did you even read my post? I already stated very clearly that there is absolutely no incentive for mafia to kill DTs right now, or as long as the balance of power between the two mafias is maintained. None at all. Mafia have no method of identifying other mafia at this stage this early in the game. They want DTs to clear up suspects on their lists. Mafia don't have to kill a single townie this game in order to win, either. And I doubt a godfather would expose themselves this early. Why would they care about townie circles? Again, I stated multiple times that all mafia has to do is kill the other mafia. Infiltrating townie circles is a lot less useful than it is in games with just one mafia. Got to agree with caller here. The mafia wouldn't have any incentive to kill the DT, they have limited kp, and wasting one on a DT who is probably medic protected wouldn't look like a good plan to the mafia. If we have one or two confirmed DT's around, it would make the game alot easier for the town, because by clearing townies as green, the mafia won't bother hitting them, which in turn could help create a central group of townies. The DT's wouldn't do anything but help the mafia kill each other faster and avoid hitting greens. The only difficulty would be identifying the true DT's from the mafia, which could probably be resolved in a day/night cycle or two. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 09:27 Fulgrim wrote:W.T.F. Seriously redtooth??? Why would you roleclaim right before the election was over. Definitely the stupidest thing I've seen all game. Now we have to wonder whether he actually is the medic or whether it was a mafia ploy to get more votes. Also did you stop to think that the mafia gets to decide how many bodyguards they want to put in on day 1???? Medic is the one blue role we DONT want revealed, because unlike the DT's medics will probably hurt the mafia's chances of winning more then a DT would. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 09:28 Fulgrim wrote:
And Empyrean was green, good job 1st day clues. We now need a list of people that should be Role checked, for future lynches/hits, or to have some confirmed greens in the town. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 09:35 Fulgrim wrote:
These are all of the people who voted for redtooth:
Ver
Chezinu
Caller
citi.zen
decafchicken
meeple
d3_crescentia
Ace
Empyrean
Bill Murray
All the people who voted for redtooth. The bolded ones changed their vote with less then 1 hour left in the election Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 09:47 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 09:38 Ace wrote:
So he convinced you he was innocent because he forgot to vote?
lol. Really you expect me to believe that? You're full of it. Give up L. You're clearly Mafia. Wrong on clue analysis, and "convinced" he's innocent because he said he forgot to vote if you didn't PM him. Right. Ace sometimes you open your mouth the heavens sing out as infinite wisdom flows from your mouth, other times you just cough up a ball of shit. This is the latter, if you bothered to read posts in this game, you would've remembered my post about how just because someone flips green doesn't mean the accusers are mafia, mafia is trying just as hard as the town to kill mafia. There is an equal chance of L being green as red. My suspicion is on you however, for you switching your vote to redtooth at the end of the election. Why? enlighten us oh veteran of mafia Ace Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 09:53 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 09:50 Ace wrote:
My vote was on redtooth. He claimed Medic. Thats why I took it away. Then I thought about his motive for lying at that point in time and it really didn't matter because Ver wasn't here anyway. So me switching my vote back within a few minutes changed nothing. There's no suspicion there.
Maybe you should bother questioning the people that pushed him from Pardoner -> Mayor. Pardoner is more powerful than Mayor anyway. So you took it away from him because you realized that having an elected official that careless would be horrible for the town? Or because you wanted him to be rolechecked? Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 10:03 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 10:01 Mystlord wrote:What the hell? The most retarded stuff happened while I stepped out. First redtooth roleclaims medic before the elections are over (WTF?!), then people vote him into office because you're afraid of losing a medic? And now we can't confirm if he's a medic. Great. Obviously either common sense has been completely destroyed, or scum is at work here. On February 16 2010 09:43 d3_crescentia wrote:On February 16 2010 09:33 Bill Murray wrote:
I honestly have been suspicious of d3_crescentia, regardless of people telling me that my analysis of the moon in his signature is a red herring... 5 mentions of the moon or moonlight are too many for me to ignore...
I say this for 2 reasons:
First, assume he is mafia. He would then defend ace/redtooth who are obviously already mutually defending each other until it was pointed out when redtooth decided that his best course of action would be to roleclaim as opposed to defending ace.
second, assume he is an idiot townie: he would be mad at me for my spamming the thread, and for lumping him in with bloodycobbler, ace, mystlord, etc. with my analysis
final analysis: I do not think redtooth is mafia, but I DEFINITELY HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THE PAST LOL U KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE. I feel that d3_crescentia fell into a trap by this, and I'm pretty sure someone else agrees with me too. I feel like d3_crescentia is trying to defend ace, and they they are both mafia from the same family.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. Oh dear God BM. Your logic fails on so many levels... Why would mafia 100% defend ace/redtooth? And I can't even pretend to understand the rest of your post. By the way, DrH, you asked before the elections were over who'd I lynch, and I'd lean towards Ace. He's just involved with too many people and has made too many posts. However, I'm not confident in that enough to push for an Ace lynch, although the vote switching has made me a bit more suspicious again... Oh yeah, and it appears that we have gotten nothing off of the Empyrean lynch. Huzzah! Time to wait for Night 2... Technically we don't have to wait, hopefully the mafia families will do some of the work for us. We should continue trying to identify mafia within the town. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 10:16 Fulgrim wrote:
Ok guys, looking back at day 1, I have to say that I'm most suspicious of redtooth and Ace. Originally there was alot of evidence to me that redtooth is town. He had a late campaign start (mafia could have been more organized then this, but not necessarily), and more importantly was receiving 0 votes. If he was mafia, he probably would have at least received some votes, and maybe even some swing votes in the last 60 minutes of the election to make him mayor??? Also I don't know what his normal posting behavior is like, but he was EXTREMELY defensive, and had this whole affair with his bff ace.
Ace I'm a bit more sure about. There are some clues that point to him (although as we saw with Emp, this isn't the most reliable method.) Also I've just found Ace to be very unhelpful to the town for the most part this game. His campaign was basically "lol nubs you guys vote for me kk?", and he spent alot of time defending himself from L and others. Finally the election, Ace switched his vote from redtooth and then back again in the last minutes of the election. (he did give an explanation, but i'm not completely satisfied)
I think that redtooth and Ace are part of the same mafia family, and that redtooth defended ace by mistake, and then started accusing him so he wouldn't look suspicious. Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 10:21 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 10:18 Ace wrote:
Listen, for the last time my vote isn't suspicious.
I went from Redtooth -> L - > Redtooth in the span of a few minutes and anyone reading this thread knows I wasn't going to vote for L seriously.
How can you continue to question me but NOT look at the people that tipped over Redtooth in becoming Mayor? Come on, you can't say with a straight face I'm more suspect than yourself in that regard. I voted for Dr.h, thinking that redtooth would be a bad candidate.... I'll admit that there are others that voted for redtooth that look suspicious, but I hadn't suspected them previously. (meeple comes to mind) Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 10:59 Fulgrim wrote:
Fulgrim's user's guide to night 1:
FOR MAFIA:
Town (mafia do not hit):
Caller (good albeit rare contributions, doubt there is red here)
Dr.H (he has been posting alot, but in my opinion they've been good quality, I don't see why everyone is attacking him all the time)
Chezinu (call me stupid, but I actually think he's the DT, he only roleclaimed in the thread until after I talked to him via pm)
Mafia (HIT THEM HARD)-
Redtooth (see my post above, although you can't hit him because he got elected....)
Ace (see my post above)
decafchicken- (he's lurking just like he did last game when he was godfather, also voted for redtooth with little reason)
Suspicious people (possible hit):
Meeple (election switching votes)
d3_cresentia (I felt her posts were much higher quality last game when town, also ninja voted for redtooth)
BC (points brought up previously about posting behavior)
retards-
BM (if he isn't mafia, I don't know what to say)
redtooth (even if you are medic, roleclaiming right before the election was over was a horrible move)
????????????-
L (i have no clue about you)
Ver
DT guide to checking people-
Avoid role checking the vets with the most posts (Ace, Ver) because these guys have high chances of being godfathers, instead try to check the more active but less Vet players. I also reccomend checking Chezinu so we can know whether he is actually a DT or not, or checking other people on the town list.
Medics guide to protecting people-
I would recommend protecting someone on the green list, and avoid people who might be mafia, use that thing in between your ears, and DONT roleclaim. Keep your role to yourself, you are in danger of being hit by mafia, and we will need you later in the game for sure, so don't screw up.
Vigi's save your kills for later nights Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 11:07 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 11:06 Ace wrote:
Interesting Fulgrim, I didn't know we had vigilantes in this game. Haha, no we don't, just went back and checked. Thanks =) Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 12:52 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 12:27 redtooth wrote:On February 16 2010 09:27 L wrote:
And that's why I wanted to kill Ace instead. THIS IS BULLSHIT. I HAD A PM FROM INCOGNITO ASKING IF I WAS PARDONER WOULD I WANT O PARDON EMP. LOL INCONSISTENCIES L. WOULD YOU LIKE TO EXPLAIN? and i went to sleep thinking i wouldn't be elected at all. instead i got a PM titled "Mr Mayor" from incognito. what. the. fuck. L any comments? Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:29 Fulgrim wrote:
I posted a poll in the voting thread regarding malongo's plan, I think we should have an informal poll, and since its anonymous maybe we can get some honest opinions Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 13:34 Fulgrim wrote:On February 16 2010 13:32 Chezinu wrote:
Okay, here is the plan.
1. medics on me of course, because I'm special
2. godfathers disguised as medic should protect me as well.
3. Mafia hit the other mafia so that if they go for me, you will be in the lead.
4. Why would you waste any hits on me?
5. Mad hatters, you guys shouldn't put bombs on me - It would kill our medics.
6. To the mafia team I sided with, please send me your hit list.
7. redtooth please give me the bodyguard information, because I'm special.
8. L please pardon my annoying behavior.
9, That is all. lol @ 6 Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 14:05 Fulgrim wrote:
Everyone make sure you vote in the voting thread about malongo's plan, maybe we will get some honest responses. Although I wish I hadn't put the Ace response, I meant it as a joke I didn't know people would actually vote for it lol Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 06:55 Fulgrim wrote:So I was compiling a list of times and votes, (including vote changes), but I have to go now and probably won't have time to finish for a while.... So I thought I would post what I had so far, which is about halfway through page 4 if someone else wants to finish. Some patterns I noticed at the beginning was a massive vote for Citi.zen, and then everyone took there vote away, then alot of votes for ver, but then some of those got changed. Enjoy: + Show Spoiler +07:30. Voting begins
7:56 Chezinu - BC
08:14 Chezinu - Citi.zen
9:18 Iaaan - abstain
10:00 Malongo - l10f
10:17 sidesprang - abstain
10:33 Bill Murray - Meeple
10:53 DoctorHelvetica - l10f
11:16 BloodyC0bbler - Ver
11:48 Caller - Ace
12:19 Abenson - abstain
12:16 Iaaan - abstain to L
12:44 Fulgrim - Ver
13:05 Abenson - abstain to Ace
13:19 Chezinu - Citi.zen to redtooth
13:41 Fishball - Citi.zen
13:55 l10f - abstain
14:26 Faronel - Citi.zen
15:01 redtooth - abstain
15:10 Ace - abstain
15:12 Mystlord - abstain
15:22 DoctorHelvetica - l10f to Citi.zen
18:00 MasterDana - Citi.zen
18:03 Chezinu - redtooth to Citi.zen
20:15 Ver - abstain
20:41 Bill Murray - meeple to Ver
21:36 Nikoner - abstain
22:19 ~OpZ~ - L
23:48 Amber[LighT] - Ver
2:59 madnessman - L
4:09 dozko - Citi.zen
5:43 Vivi57- Ver
5:47 ShoCkeyy - abstain
5:48 QuickStriker - abstain
6:24 johnnyspazz - abstain
6:49 Zato-1 - L
7:24 Chezinu - Citi.zen to redtooth
8:20 citi.zen - doctorhelvetica
8:36 [NyC]HoBbes - Citi.zen
8:43 Phrujbaz - abstain
8:58 789 - Citi.zen
9:09 Scamp - L
9:19 Fulgrim - Ver to DrH
9:53 Foolishness - abstain
10:01 LucasWoJ - abstain
10:23 SugiuraMidori - abstain
10:37 XeliN - Ver
11:13 Shikyo - abstain
11:18 DoctorHelvetica - Citi.zen to L
11:27 789 - Citi.zen to abstain
11:43 decafchicken - Ace
11:53 Bill Murray - Ver to Ace
12:04 tree.hugger - Ver
12:38 Bill Murray - Ace to tree.hugger
13:04 tree.hugger - Ver to DrH
13:37 [NyC]HoBbes - Citi.zen to abstain
13:40 d3_crescentia - abstain
13:40 CynanMachae - abstain
14:35 Bill Murray - tree.hugger to abstain
14:38 L - abstain
14:45 Chezinu -redtooth to BM
14:49 redtooth - abstain to L
15:12 Foolishness - abstain to BM
15:46 BloodyC0bbler - Ver to abstain
16:19 Ver - abstain to redtooth
17:35 Ace - abstain to redtooth
Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 08:39 Fulgrim wrote:On February 17 2010 08:29 Ace wrote:
Don't have much time, but Townies listen to Scamp and LucaWoj. Under NO circumstances should anyone reveal they are a medic. Those are our trump cards because whichever side is "winning" the shooutout can't be allowed to run wild.
Bill Murray you're actually one of my top 3 suspects now. No purely because of the spam, but because you've been wrong multiple times. Not even Amber[light] or Vivi57 have missed this many times in a single game. Feels as though you're trying to pull off the clueless role.
Redtooth Chezinu isn't a confirmed DT. Don't get why you are protecting him unless you feel he's the only credible pro-town player at the moment?
Also I forgot if it was you that made the "DTs can safely claim" post, and since I'm about to leave I can't check. But if anyone checks this information out and see that you made the argument, or supported it you're getting lynched tomorrow. That would show a huge contradiction in what you said and then your decision to protect Chezinu. Of course I hope that's not the case ^_^
I'll be playing for real from now on. Let's hope I don't die tonight ^_^ I was one of the ones who thinks that DT's should roleclaim. Medics are a different story. Show nested quote +On February 17 2010 09:02 Fulgrim wrote:On February 17 2010 08:58 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:On February 17 2010 08:43 Bill Murray wrote:
without detectives all we have are behavioral analysis and voting patterns, right?
i don't see why a detective would roleclaim, they would get killed so fast, see: the last game i played Ok, I have a bit of unexpected downtime I can get online for. My thoughts: Detectives get killed instantly when it's town vs ONE mafia. When there are two mafias, DT's are at least as useful to the mafia as they are to the town, if they can convince a DT to tell them who is in the other mafia family. Therefore, DT's claiming, while it may not be the smartest thing to do, depending on the situation, is by no means suicidal to the DT. My main point for having the DT's roleclaim is so that they don't get accidentally hit by the mafia, also they can clear greens so they won't get hit either. It helps the town survive, and helps more mafia get killed.
D3_crescentia
+ Show Spoiler +
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 07:50 d3_crescentia wrote:
time to make a new set of dossiers...
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 10:55 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 10:50 Mystlord wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 10:43 meeple wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 10:37 MasterDana wrote:
Also, did Wine Barrels or Football fields stand-out to anyone? It could've easily said "Barrel" or "100-yards", but it got descriptive. Just something I noticed.[/QUOTE]
I thought about it... but generally its better to profile the killers right now. Last game we made a huge deal about some heavily caffeinated tea at the beginning that ended up being nothing. Often it seems that the host is overly descriptive just to make our lives harder.[/QUOTE]
Ah ha ha I remember that.
I think clues would mostly be concentrated in areas that actually describe somehow the killers right? I didn't take notice if that was the case at the end of the last mafia game, but I believe that was how it turned out.[/QUOTE]
Generally I think is the case, but each host's clue style is a little different as well, especially for the more vague Day 1 clues.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 11:10 d3_crescentia wrote:
@Ver, what about Game 15 where BC just posted random rhyming gibberish?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 11:34 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 11:20 Caller wrote:
Ver, I'm not entirely sure lynching BC is a very good idea. While I agree with you on the election post, consider the thing about BC is that he's very good at identifying people's roles and the like. We ideally should keep him alive as long as possible. Even if he is scum, you'd consider that he would likely focus on the other mafia, and this gives us two things:
a) dead mafia on the other family
b) a free kill for a vig or lynch on his family.
More importantly, we can trace some of his support if he is indeed scum, which may give us more information. It all depends on what he can do for us.
Of course, if he's town affiliated, he can only benefit us.
I submit that we lynch random people for the first lynch like we usually do. You never know, we may get lucky. Lynching strong players right now could really hurt the town, especially without any information. Of course, it may also cripple mafia as well, but I'm not sure we should take such a risk right now.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this - out of all the possible mafia candidates to lynch, we should reserve the best ones for later. The town HAS to play both families against the other without playing too much into either one's plans. Even if BC was mafia, then the other mafia would KNOW to keep their sights on him for his supposed prowess at identifying people... but if the TOWN killed him right away, then it'd just be doing their dirty work for them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 12:08 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 12:01 L wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote:
Ok, the KingPin has arrived. Time to stop this nonsense and get this game started.
First of all, I'm going to be brutally honest here. Some of you playing are newbies. That isn't to say you're bad, but more so that you haven't had the experience of playing a true cut throat game of Mafia. The last 2 games were honestly so bland - aka too much talking about clues, that it wasn't really that much high level strategy going on.
Like Ver said, talking too much about clues early is USELESS. Don't try to convince anyone that someone is Mafia based on clues for the first few days. It's nice to mention it, but do not make it a central point of focus. MTF and Camlito are the best 2 clue analyzers along with Plexa that we ever had. That was in Mafia 2 and it took a ton of planning + input from various people to even come to some of those conclusions. Chances are you won't be able to do much with clues this game unless you've got some additional proof. What I mean by this is catch someone on behavior analysis + clues + shoddy voting or motives. Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this.
I'm running for Mayor of course. But in the event I don't win, my vote is possibly going to Ver. The only reason I might not vote for him is because he has elected to kill BC which is just as bad as L/Zato wanting me dead. Our most valuable players should be saved unless it's blatantly obvious they are Mafia. There are 3 teams this game, don't even bother trying to murder all of our good players so soon.
[/QUOTE]
Summarized version: I'm angry that in game where 2 out of 5 people are mafia, that someone called me out on blatant clue connections.
I could understand if we had a 20 man game with like, 4 mafia, that a host would understandably shy away from good day 1 clues, but that's really not the case here. Compare this game's Day 1 post with clues to pretty much any of the others; This one is far larger, has more thematic elements and establishes 3-4 clear personae.
Actually, I kinda want to repeat that; Lets look at this current game format.
The town consists of 31 members. The mafia families combined amount to 20 members. Mafia, given that they attack a group that is 41 members large, and not 51 members large, have a 1/4 chance of hitting a mafia from another house, and a 3/4 chance of hitting a townie. With a total of 7 kp per day, 1 from the town, 3 from each family, we have 1*60%+6*75% effective average townie deaths per day before clues and blue roles. That's 5 deaths a day, giving us a clock of around 6-8 days to kill...
20 mafia?
Well, that's not entirely true; we should have 2 mafia killed by that point by fire between the groups, so 18. Say we have 8 days until some form of LyLo situtation, giving us 8 lynches; Even if we succeed every lynch, we're going to have ten mafia still alive.
That's impossible. Many of you know its impossible. So what handicaps is town likely to get? Well for one, they have stronger DTs, they probably have substantial kp in vigs and hatters, but they won't amount to the 12 kp hole we have.
More to the point; Clues aren't here just for the town; They're for opposing mafia teams as well. If we aren't analysing and picking a few good targets a day, one of the teams will be; ideally we want to be correct about a few of the early ones and have members of the mafia agree so that they shred each other and lower their kp asap.
So why exactly are you thinking that day 1 clues wouldn't be a part of the game?
[/QUOTE]
thanks for stealing my thoughts L =(
clues are worth more in this game than in previous games, and so we should pay a little more attention to Day 1 clues than in standard games
(of course, the problem is deciphering the clues)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 12:10 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 12:06 Ace wrote:
Ok L, try using that the "40% of people are Mafia argument". It doesn't help. Blindly pointing fingers in the chance you may nab someone is just as bad if it were a game where 20% of the people are Mafia. Stop it. You're wrong. [/QUOTE]
no, but it forces you to defend yourself and add more to the discussion so we can further analyze your posting
let the accusations begin[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 12:20 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 12:19 meeple wrote:
so x = mafia 1
y = mafia 2
z = town
z is trying to kill x + y
X is trying to kill y + z
y is trying to kill x + z
Isn't it something more like this?[/QUOTE]
no, because the victory conditions for X/Y only rely on the other one being completely dead
so Z kill X + Y
X kill Y
Y kill X
as mentioned above[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 13:05 d3_crescentia wrote:
L, it's 16 mafia, not 18. I agree with your post; I think it's important to think about what kinds of posting/voting dynamics change as a result from a simple two-faction game to a three faction game. The fact alone that having a mafia mayor won't be as terrible as the same situation in a two-faction game should be enough for people to step back and reconsider things.
I'd post with more substance and clarity, but I'm wrecked from prepping for this Chinese New Years' party today.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 00:36 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2010 22:55 Ace wrote:
"let them kill each other off now" - and how do we do that? It's not like we KNOW who they are.
I disagree with so much of you're post. You're first paragraph is blatantly wrong because clues aren't always right. The very fact that you don't even know what automatically constitutes a clue makes you wrong on that too. [/QUOTE]
We do clue analysis regardless of whether or not it's right, and people step up to defend/criticize... then we analyze their posts in response. The fact that there's such a huge argument between you and L is already very telling.
I suppose it would derail the thread if we picked someone wrong, so my suggestion is thus: can we find any further clues that relate to the electoral candidates?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 01:06 d3_crescentia wrote:
I'm starting to agree with BC here... Bill is either bad at posting, or mafia. Or both, because the situation we have right now would happen anyway if he was the latter and did the former. It's simply DUMB for the mafia to put GF as mayor, because it wastes the GF's inherent power.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 01:12 d3_crescentia wrote:
Also, why is BM pointing out who could/couldn't be GF right now, when it's a fact that GF is decided before the END of Day 1?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 01:17 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 01:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 01:12 d3_crescentia wrote:
Also, why is BM pointing out who could/couldn't be GF right now, when it's a fact that GF is decided before the END of Day 1?[/QUOTE]
Someone has seen the light[/QUOTE]
problem: would the mafia be THIS uncoordinated to let BM say shit like this?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 12:22 d3_crescentia wrote:
So how do we go about getting bodyguards checked?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 12:25 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 12:23 SugiuraMidori wrote:
Has tree.hugger ever made a post, or has it just been his vote for Ace just now?[/QUOTE]
Don't think so. It'd be with his normal posting pattern, though - he wasn't overactive in the last game.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 12:32 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 12:24 SugiuraMidori wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 12:22 d3_crescentia wrote:
So how do we go about getting bodyguards checked?[/QUOTE]
Read more... bodyguards check normally, nothing special about them as far as checks.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, maybe I should rephrase - why was the bodyguard check suggested in the first place and/or what kind of benefit do we get from doing it? That's what I'm confused about.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:04 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:03 tree.hugger wrote:
I have a feeling that way to many of these posts, especially the ones from our veterans are tainted by personal feelings. Which is a little disappointing, because only unbiased, in-depth analysis is what is going to win us the game.
And activity of course.
I don't think my last stint as mayor would make me a good choice for the post, but I would suggest that the mayor be someone without the massive ego.
[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, people with massive egos have higher opinions of themselves and are more likely to be driven to WIN out of said egos.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:46 d3_crescentia wrote:
Only 16 posts for me? Pah. Pathetic.
Question: do town-aligned bodyguards still protect mafia-aligned officials in this game?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:50 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:47 Chezinu wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:46 Qatol wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
he corrected it so it doesn't count posts before the game started (before the first day post)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:45 CynanMachae wrote:
He took out the posts that were made before the game started[/QUOTE]
You mean she![/QUOTE]
Oooooo[/QUOTE]
I thought we all knew this already -_-[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:55 d3_crescentia wrote:
I'm abstaining because I'd like to vote for L but haven't had a chance to examine him or the other candidates too closely.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:07 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 13:57 SugiuraMidori wrote:
I told you why I'm abstaining... they're all hooligans!!
And it gets OLD to see vet players always take mayor pardoner.. what's the freaking point, let some new players learn how to play the game.
Also.. edited the last post to show it in count order, and placed old post in spoiler so it's preserved.
Removed the mods from the counts as well...[/QUOTE]
We newer players had games before these to learn a bit... some of us did very well; others, not so much =[ Though, I will agree that they're all hooligans.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:16 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:12 QuickStriker wrote:
Hi everyone, I am back.... wow, the last time I remember I posted, I think it was page 24.... how the hell did this game went to page 44 in one day?? My last mafia game stopped and finished at page 44. This is really sad and interesting at the same time....
I seriously honestly don't want to read thru all these 20+ pages I missed.... can someone PLEASE PLEASEEEEEEE make a post of summarization and brief key points from the start of the game to now??? Please????? I really don't want to sit back, and spend an actual 3 hours reading all this when like today, I had places to go and people to do. Thank you. x_x[/QUOTE]
search through the thread and look at DrH's summary post (except take it with a grain of salt, since he might be some filthy red scum again)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:21 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:18 QuickStriker wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:16 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 15 2010 14:12 QuickStriker wrote:
Hi everyone, I am back.... wow, the last time I remember I posted, I think it was page 24.... how the hell did this game went to page 44 in one day?? My last mafia game stopped and finished at page 44. This is really sad and interesting at the same time....
I seriously honestly don't want to read thru all these 20+ pages I missed.... can someone PLEASE PLEASEEEEEEE make a post of summarization and brief key points from the start of the game to now??? Please????? I really don't want to sit back, and spend an actual 3 hours reading all this when like today, I had places to go and people to do. Thank you. x_x[/QUOTE]
search through the thread and look at DrH's summary post (except take it with a grain of salt, since he might be some filthy red scum again)[/QUOTE]
Or have his own personal bias-feedback?? Do you know what page # is that?? I mean you're talking me searching thru 45 pages to find one post.... 15 posts per page times 40 pages.... 600 posts...[/QUOTE]
you could just hit 'All' and Ctrl+F for 'DoctorHelvetica'[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 03:27 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 01:47 789 wrote:
Redtooth, I'm curious as to why you push L for voting so hard. How can you be sure he is non mafia?[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter as much (or at least, not in the same way) as if this were a town v mafia game. Whoever we end up electing will have the same goals - kill more mafia - so the real issue is simply KNOWING whether the mayor is mafia or not and figuring out when the most optimal time to kill him is.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 03:46 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 03:34 citi.zen wrote:
It may even be nice to have a mafia elected official, they will have to be very active and generate a long trail f posts to analyze later. In the end I think the game gets interesting once DTs build a circle of trust with grens/blues and we can really get some traction. Provided the DTs don't check mafia 2x nights in a row, or stumble across the GF - which could make life very hard.[/QUOTE]
More preferable to have a mafia mayor than a pardoner, because the pardoner has that much more power in the late game to cement a mafia lead. We should watch out for this.
I've been trying to wrap my mind around the bodyguard/substitution process for the last day or so, and I think DT checks on bodyguards would help to determine the nature of our officials. I'm still working out the details, though.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 06:57 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 06:28 L wrote:
Nikoner, not killing someone day 1 is generally a box of dumb. Even if it makes me look bad, its better to have 100% confirmable information for the town to work with regarding associations and whatnot.
My only fear is that ZERO people have pushed back against my claim against emp, and a number of people have tagged along well after i took pains to make it clear i wasn't dropping the accusation. Either one of the mafia teams is using him as a sacrifice to get, say, ver, to look good by supporting my position, or emp is green/blue and afk like a moron. Given his vote, it would seem that he isn't afk, which leads me to believe that killing him will at least give me some information. I'm actually more worried about how much information regarding clue interpretation for this game I can glean from a red or green flip than anything else.
Like i said; Grow some fucking balls. [/QUOTE]
L, I'll nibble... only a bit. The clues we have regarding Emp are that his name has links to light, fire and heaven, but it seems to me that "thinking that an angel had saved the town" is more a manner of speech; a being masked by light is not necessarily the same as an angelic being. Consider BloodyCobbler's profile - plenty of blue-ish light in there, and it seems that he was eager to set you up as super-eager to lynch Ace.
I'm curious as to why no one's focusing on the hyena-laughter/psychopathic noises. Madnessman feels pretty red-herring to me, but who else could it be?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 06:59 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 06:52 SugiuraMidori wrote:
So why are people voting for Chez all of a sudden? He just acts like a 12yr old kid that has yet to have his balls drop, as L so brilliantly pointed out. He also had 0 votes till now..[/QUOTE]
I think it's that we know Chez won't win; L doesn't want to support anyone and picks a joke vote, and Bill is an idiot...[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 07:18 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 07:05 L wrote:
Its not a wasted vote. I'd rather have someone who i'm pretty sure is a DT in office regardless of his posting mannerisms if the alternatives are just as stupid with far less potential for being blue. [/QUOTE]
But with a little less than two hours left, do you think your vote can actually make a difference?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 07:28 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 07:20 L wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 07:18 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 07:05 L wrote:
Its not a wasted vote. I'd rather have someone who i'm pretty sure is a DT in office regardless of his posting mannerisms if the alternatives are just as stupid with far less potential for being blue. [/QUOTE]
But with a little less than two hours left, do you think your vote can actually make a difference?[/QUOTE]
Instead of asking me incredibly stupid questions, why don't you think on your own for 3 seconds? Yeah, no shit I think it makes a difference, otherwise I wouldn't have voted. [/QUOTE]
Well, that certainly puts everything into a whole new perspective for me. I appreciate your honestly.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 08:41 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 08:39 Bill Murray wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 08:21 Ace wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 08:21 L wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 08:19 redtooth wrote:
god damn it i said don't worry about chezinu L.[/QUOTE]
I'm not worried about him.
I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE]
and I'm worried about YOU.[/QUOTE]
"Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell,"[/QUOTE]
so you read a wiki and suddenly decide you're the king of analysis?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:43 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:33 Bill Murray wrote:
I honestly have been suspicious of d3_crescentia, regardless of people telling me that my analysis of the moon in his signature is a red herring... 5 mentions of the moon or moonlight are too many for me to ignore...
I say this for 2 reasons:
First, assume he is mafia. He would then defend ace/redtooth who are obviously already mutually defending each other until it was pointed out when redtooth decided that his best course of action would be to roleclaim as opposed to defending ace.
second, assume he is an idiot townie: he would be mad at me for my spamming the thread, and for lumping him in with bloodycobbler, ace, mystlord, etc. with my analysis
final analysis: I do not think redtooth is mafia, but I DEFINITELY HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THE PAST LOL U KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE. I feel that d3_crescentia fell into a trap by this, and I'm pretty sure someone else agrees with me too. I feel like d3_crescentia is trying to defend ace, and they they are both mafia from the same family.
[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
no.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 10:01 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:45 Bill Murray wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:43 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:33 Bill Murray wrote:
I honestly have been suspicious of d3_crescentia, regardless of people telling me that my analysis of the moon in his signature is a red herring... 5 mentions of the moon or moonlight are too many for me to ignore...
I say this for 2 reasons:
First, assume he is mafia. He would then defend ace/redtooth who are obviously already mutually defending each other until it was pointed out when redtooth decided that his best course of action would be to roleclaim as opposed to defending ace.
second, assume he is an idiot townie: he would be mad at me for my spamming the thread, and for lumping him in with bloodycobbler, ace, mystlord, etc. with my analysis
final analysis: I do not think redtooth is mafia, but I DEFINITELY HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THE PAST LOL U KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE. I feel that d3_crescentia fell into a trap by this, and I'm pretty sure someone else agrees with me too. I feel like d3_crescentia is trying to defend ace, and they they are both mafia from the same family.
[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
no.[/QUOTE]
no on what? it's one or the other, and you aren't as strong of a player as ace so you cant just be like "im ace i have bodyarmor u cant kill me" like ace does because he knows that nothing will stick to him. i really do think you are mafia, though.
[/QUOTE]
because I've done none of the above. have I defended ace or redtooth at all this game? perhaps it would serve you to count the number of posts I've made that haven't been attempting to be exceedingly neutral and attempt to contribute something other than pointless name-calling. well, screw that.
and, scratch that - I have been pissed off at you, and it is because you spam the thread with analysis - but only because it's bad.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:11 d3_crescentia wrote:
Fulgrim, quality posts take time and effort to construct. I'm not as fast of a typist or as streamlined of a thinker as some of these other people are, so I haven't been able to type out something that's significant and relevant when we're going as fast as 20 pages a day. On top of that, most of our vets are doing the same thing they've been doing for the past several games (i.e. accusing each other), so I find myself unable to participate in such discussions. As for clue analysis, I'm of the opinion that the Day 1 clues weren't any stronger or weaker than previous games... and so having learned my lesson from last game I wasn't going to buy into it as strongly as I did this game.
Zato, in reference to this post:
[quote]Imagine that I'm a mafia member from the Gambino family. I know that neither the mayor or the pardoner are from my ranks, and we have no infiltrated bodyguards. Since my family's goal is to kill all members of the Sumiyoshi family, this includes potentially killing the mayor / pardoner, because there's a good chance at least one of them is from the other family. Because they will be immune to hits due to bodyguards, getting the list of bodyguards will be quite valuable and possibly well worth the trade.[/quote]
I think there's a problem with this line of thinking. The mafia (S) are going to have to spend 4 KP to get themselves rid of the bodyguards before they can get rid of the officials... but that's going to take two nights of potentially wasted KP while the other family is free to strike; or one night if the other mafia decides to substitute their two guys. I *doubt* that the (G) who are in control of the office will want to substitute any guys, because it only makes them more vulnerable if such a list is leaked.
If the (S) decides to substitute and while the Mayor is (G), then it will obviously make the Mayor/Pardoner more vulnerable to attack after the two town BGs have been killed or lynched, though this would be suspicious for the (S)-aligned BGs as well after two of their comrades have died. If such a substitution is made, then likely we won't be seeing any BGs die until later in the game... but then, it's still possible to find a mafia.
I think the BG list should be made public. The DTs can check them, and the mafia can choose to waste their KP on them, if they so choose. Killing 2-4 people just to get to 1 seems awfully inefficient.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:32 d3_crescentia wrote:
What do you think about publicly releasing the BG list?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:36 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:32 Malongo wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:50 Ace wrote:
My vote was on redtooth. He claimed Medic. Thats why I took it away. Then I thought about his motive for lying at that point in time and it really didn't matter because Ver wasn't here anyway. So me switching my vote back within a few minutes changed nothing. There's no suspicion there.
Maybe you should bother questioning the people that pushed him from Pardoner -> Mayor. Pardoner is more powerful than Mayor anyway. [/QUOTE]
I disagree here Ace. From mafia pov its direct that knowing all the bgs-> confirmed townies or at least few chances of mafia from the other family + 3 votes is huge. Think about this: this game is more likely to go until 20 players remain unless one family is absolutely demolishing the other. In this case having a mafia having 3 votes and clearing up the targets with the bgs list is lot better than 2 pardons overall. Having a mafia mayor is a huge advantage against the other mafia, having a pardoner *may* save one of your foes but its not like the other mafia cant target him anyways next night. As you see pardoner <<<< mayor for a mafia player.
So the point is, what is redtooth going to do about his claim¿ The best way to set this up is : Redtooth self claimed medic declares his target for protection before the night. This way the other family /assuming redtooth is mafia/ has the chance to hit that target and unreveal redtooth. It is win for that family because then they force the town to lynch him if he turns nonmedic, and it is win for that family in case the target survives because they can play knowing that redtooth is not in the other mafia.
Thoughts¿
[/QUOTE]
Problem with this is if the declared target is in the same family as those that'll be targeting him - unless they're willing to sacrifice him.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:59 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:41 Malongo wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:36 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:32 Malongo wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 09:50 Ace wrote:
My vote was on redtooth. He claimed Medic. Thats why I took it away. Then I thought about his motive for lying at that point in time and it really didn't matter because Ver wasn't here anyway. So me switching my vote back within a few minutes changed nothing. There's no suspicion there.
Maybe you should bother questioning the people that pushed him from Pardoner -> Mayor. Pardoner is more powerful than Mayor anyway. [/QUOTE]
I disagree here Ace. From mafia pov its direct that knowing all the bgs-> confirmed townies or at least few chances of mafia from the other family + 3 votes is huge. Think about this: this game is more likely to go until 20 players remain unless one family is absolutely demolishing the other. In this case having a mafia having 3 votes and clearing up the targets with the bgs list is lot better than 2 pardons overall. Having a mafia mayor is a huge advantage against the other mafia, having a pardoner *may* save one of your foes but its not like the other mafia cant target him anyways next night. As you see pardoner <<<< mayor for a mafia player.
So the point is, what is redtooth going to do about his claim¿ The best way to set this up is : Redtooth self claimed medic declares his target for protection before the night. This way the other family /assuming redtooth is mafia/ has the chance to hit that target and unreveal redtooth. It is win for that family because then they force the town to lynch him if he turns nonmedic, and it is win for that family in case the target survives because they can play knowing that redtooth is not in the other mafia.
Thoughts¿
[/QUOTE]
Problem with this is if the declared target is in the same family as those that'll be targeting him - unless they're willing to sacrifice him.[/QUOTE]
Ok. Then we force redtooth to protect a target from the town: me. As you see i cant not be in Redtooths family /if im mafia and so is him/ because that would be stupid. I cant be on the others family IM ASKING TO GET HIT and protected. What about that¿ if redtooth claims protection on me and he should be because that way he can prove himself then i will live. /unless there are stacked hits on me wish will be noted in the number of deaths/ If i die redtooth is mafia.
THOUGHTS¿¿¿¿[/QUOTE]
I think this might actually work.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:00 d3_crescentia wrote:
On second thought, the problem would be if the mafia decided to entirely sidestep this plan. Hmm.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:08 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:06 Mystlord wrote:
I don't think the plan would work since I highly doubt the mafia would waste a hit like that. Remember that the other mafia family has 3 hits and each of them are going to be aimed at a potential mafia. Why would one mafia family waste a hit so early in the game?[/QUOTE]
Because they have nothing to lose either... it's in the mid-game where they can't waste hits. Do they know who else, amongst the 40 people that have been listed, could be mafia? I sincerely doubt that they have more than 2-3 guesses, and even then it's likely that at least one will turn up green.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:31 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:23 789 wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:17 Malongo wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:12 789 wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 13:03 Malongo wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 16 2010 12:54 789 wrote:
Malongo, your plan hinges on everyone going along with it and honestly participating. I mean say redtooth goes along with it ... why would a mafia family sacrifice a hit that may be blocked. Or say in the case that redtooth actually is a medic (yeah no, but let's just say) and BOTH mafia families hit you. It makes redtooth look like a lier. In a perfect world it is a good idea ... but it won't work in a practical application.[/QUOTE]
A Supposing a mafia family suspects redtooth is mafia the will asap hit me to clear him. Its 3 votes + a protected role. They only lose a hit and prove redtooth, wich is useless because bg list is more likely infiltrated. Believe me the other family is liking his chops at this idea.
B If hits stack¿ lol if hits stack i die and nothing else happens, redtooth isnt cleared and we have more gamble beetween families.
Why wont work¿ i still dont see how can be bad for the town. Worst case scenario: mafia doesnt hit me and redtooth loses a protection that cant be directed to a town townie anyways. We have absolutely nothing to lose.[/QUOTE]
I still don't see why the mafia would be licking their chops to cooperate. If they wanted to get rid of him they could act like townies and get him lynched. Why would they take a path that potentially wastes a hit and could potentially help the town greatly by giving them a trusted person to organize behind. Sure they know who a medic is if they want to target him - but I would think at least one of the BGs is still town aligned and he'd be protected.
If they want to take him out there are other lower risk ways to do it and they wouldn't want to clear him.[/QUOTE]
Mafia has to kill the other mafia to win. Having a guy that is likely to be part of one of the mafias in the mayor spot is clearly a big disadvantage to start with. Sure RT *may* prove himself. Then what¿ trusted BG list¿ he asks all the blues to pm him¿ he asks everyplayer to pm him his role¿ with 20 mafia in the game¿ Think about that for a minute.[/QUOTE]
You bypassed my main point. Why would one of the mafia families risk a hit or helping the town when they could attempt a lynch play to take down redtooth.[/QUOTE]
Because the point isn't to lynch redtooth. Redtooth flipping red/blue will give both the town AND the mafia some information - information they wouldn't be able to get by slogging through another 48 hours of day posts attempting to convince people otherwise.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:50 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:43 Bill Murray wrote:
without detectives all we have are behavioral analysis and voting patterns, right?
i don't see why a detective would roleclaim, they would get killed so fast, see: the last game i played[/QUOTE]
Ugh, because the mafia want to kill other mafia, not the town. As long as the DT can be swayed by one family they will have an edge over the other one. And because the town wants to find and kill all mafia, they 1) use medics to protect DT and 2) carefully watch who else is feeding DT information.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:52 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:51 Faronel wrote:
No... detectives claiming is safe. If they claim, then they can be covered by medics. While if they don't claim, they can get hit, and we will never know what the DT knew.
Althought... personally DT should have some tidbit of vital information before claiming.
Also, this is kind of important, do we know how many DT's we have in total, as this makes it much easier?[/QUOTE]
No, we don't.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:57 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:52 Bill Murray wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:50 d3_crescentia wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 17 2010 08:43 Bill Murray wrote:
without detectives all we have are behavioral analysis and voting patterns, right?
i don't see why a detective would roleclaim, they would get killed so fast, see: the last game i played[/QUOTE]
Ugh, because the mafia want to kill other mafia, not the town. As long as the DT can be swayed by one family they will have an edge over the other one. And because the town wants to find and kill all mafia, they 1) use medics to protect DT and 2) carefully watch who else is feeding DT information.[/QUOTE]
THEY? you speak like you're not a townie.[/QUOTE]
I hope I die just so I can be another proof of how wrong you are. =][/QUOTE]
[/spoiler]
Ver is right on the money for everyone but Ace. There was a little bit more to his posting.
Ace:
- feels clues in the beginning are useless
- L and zato-1 accused him off of clues right off the bat
- claims to be green several times, and says L will die when he flips green
- afraid Doctor Helvetica is going to get away with slipping it up (he compares it to the game qatol and L were on the same mafia, and both squirmed away from being lynched multiple times) [Note: I strongly encourage everyone to read his accusations.]
- it might be worth our time to look at the posters who produce worthless posts
- continues to "call" L out even later in the game
- accusation against Doctor Helvetica not completely addressed, and they're not as aggressive as time goes on (made weary by the spam in the thread?)
- jokes about putting a medic on infundibulum (PMs exchanged)
Ace began the game with an argument with L over the importance of clues in the beginning of the game. Soon, he began accusing L of being in mafia while simultaneously attacking Doctor Helvetica of logical fallacies. In the end, he goes back to L and says he's the most likely to be mafia.
Clue Analysis
First Killer
- Painstakingly careful and intentionally surreptitious
- Tracksman (reads as if he’s tracking a deer or other hunt)
- Sadistic; modus operandi: gasoline + fire
Second Killer
- walks purposefully
- doesn’t sneak into the house: direct (knocks on the door)
- ghostly; phantom-like?
- modus operandi: spears? Arrows? Some impaling object
Third Killer
- Organized killer; planned
- Uses a tool he placed on the scene of the crime before hand.
- In doing so, he blocks out the light and alerts just about everyone of something suspicious.
- Modus operandi: throws an emblematic object at someone but kills them with a pike through the stomach; delivers a message on the pike
- Mocking or believes in human sacrifice
Fourth Killer (Mafia 2)
- Visible white particles in the air
- Modus operandi: not present; some sort of chemist; not poison, but causes lightheadedness and other side-effects
- I think the victim is knocked unconscious and suffocates.
Fifth Killer (Mafia 2) (and sixth killer?)
- Graffiti
- Cold, menacing
- Modus operandi: Uses a cooking object (why would he have this any way?) to kill
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Ugh I went back and re-read starting from page 14 until about page 30 (so far) and I've gone through every bs post, stupid argument, unbelievable accusation etc...
People who should be looked at because they were misleading in day 1:
L:
-Strongly advocates clue analysis and explains why its good in this game (pg 16)
-Forcing clues to match Ace as a suspect (pg 17)
-Shows us he sucks at math and doesn't realize that 8 + 8 = 16, not 18 (pg 19)
-BC openly asks why L likes clue analysis, and L claims he has a "sterling" record (pg 21)
-Still pushing for the clues against Ace (pg 23)
-Wants to kill the moonlight rider, not necessarily Ace (pg 24)
-Believes that the moonlight rider might be 789 (pg 24)
-Believes the clues of fire, angels and radiance may point to Empyrean (pg 25)
-Still thinks Ace and Mystlord are the two strongest lynch candidates (pg 25)
-Claims that the clues are so strong and we must utilize them (pg 25)
Chezinu:
-Just plain annoying to read (pg 16 - current)
Bill Murray
-No explanation required(pg 14 - pg 30)
People who should be looked at who are extremely useless from Day 1 (first half or so and in no particular order):
Iaaan:
-useless post implicating BC (pg 15)
-Agrees with meeple about something (pg 15)
-More useless gibberish (pg 16)
-Feels that the mafia families are the best weapons for the town (pg 17)
-Argues with Ace that clues aren't primary, but claims Ace said they shouldn't be looked at in the first place (pg 17)
-Insists that L's clue analysis is definite and points to Ace (pg 18)
-More useless posts (pg 19)
-More useless posts (pg 20)
-Again... (pg 23)
Meeple:
-Everything :facepalm: (pg 14)
-Twice again (pg 16)
-Arguing with Ace asking for suspects and believes clues should be looked at heavily (pg 17)
-Meeple then tries to give us a variable lesson after Abenson (pg 17)
-More useless posts between him and Absenson (pg 18)
-More useless posts about clues (pg 18)
-More useless posts towards Chezinu, as well as informing us that we should hung mafia, no shit (pg 19)
Sidespring:
-Weak clue analysis against Ver (pg 15)
-Agrees not to lynch immediately based upon clues, but gives no effort in aiding discussion of any sort (pg 16)
Abenson:
-Agrees with Ace, only because everyone "should" agree with Ace. (pg 16)
-Let us know Chezinu PM'ed him on the 10th, thanks Abenson (pg 16)
-Throwing out more useless information about a past mafia game, and trying to teach us about variables (pg 17)
-Can't think of anything helpful to say, so he lets us all know (pg 21)
Fulgrim:
-Comes in and talks about how clues are important blah blah (pg 18)
-Votes for Ver because he has the best posts so far, congrats Ver! (pg 18)
-Won't vote for Ace because he's not accusing anybody (pg 18)
People who should be looked at with a careful eye, not too suspicious, just not really helping...
Cyanmachine:
-Claims he read everything, but never saw the list of people who were running for mayor, or their posts? (pg 21)
-Still unsure as to who's running for mayor, proving he didn't read shit (pg 22)
Faronel:
-Provides no contribution and rehashes everything that has been said in the past 8 pages (pg 22)
-Made a newb mistake and edited a post, probably just a newb mistake (pg 22)
Fishball:
-Always up for seeing BC dead, no reason (pg 15)
[NyC]Hobbes:
-Rambling about how clues help the town and that it worked in a previous game (pg 20)
-Rambles about how we should use clue analysis in the late game (pg 21)
-Supports citi.zen for mayor because of his performance last game (pg 23)
-Does not support Ace, ver, or L because of shaky analysis and finger pointing (pg 23)
-Wants to kill someone based upon clues and clues alone, that person being Ace (pg 24)
-Believes that going back after Ace is killed will give us insight about the players who accused him (pg 24)
-Notes that killing someone like Chezinu is useless for the town, if our only reason is because they are annoying (pg 24)
MasterDana:
-Ran for mayor on a shitty platform (pg 14)
-Makes an even shittier post right after (pg 14)
I'm not suggesting anybody here is mafia, but they have ties to every player who was killed and have been contributing constantly to the derailment of this game within a 16 page period (except for the top three).
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By the way based upon my own analysis I should be a suspect as well. I made little contribution to Day 1, but I am not going to go through my own posts
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Mafia 1:
Hitlist:
1. Ace
2. Zato-1
3. Bloodyc0bbler
Ace’s Killer:
Gasoline and match
Fun thinking about terrorizing town in both darkness and light
Zato-1’s Killer:
Agile
Yet powerful enough to knock Zato down with an array of sharp objects
Then escapes by creating a hole in the wall…
Bloodyc0bbler’s killer:
Is able to hide a crane…
Mafia 2:
Hitlist:
1. Fulgrim
2. d3_crescentia
3. ? – Ver claims he got hit (I have a theory that they hit Bloodyc0bbler)
Fulgrim’s Killer:
Natural killer… (I’m thinking of the profile with the white seed plant)
d3_crescentia’s Killer:
two men fighting. One man scrawled graffiti all over the other man’s house. The two men had a cold menacing glare.. (were they possessed by someone who used their special eye abilities?
Bloodyc0bbler’s true Killer:
Metal pike out of his stomach (remind me of aliens)… he was a sacrifice to the gods…
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d3_crescentia’s Killer: forgot the pan - was going to say other stuff but refrained thus the missing ")" hehe
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EPT
