EPTOn August 14 2009 09:33 LuckyOne wrote:
nothing surprising, have problems? Blame them on others.
nothing surprising, have problems? Blame them on others.
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/IllegalImm/GAOCosts.html
DHS: Recession fueling right-wing extremism - Page 19
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/IllegalImm/GAOCosts.html | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On August 14 2009 08:47 L wrote: What 'evidence'. The fact that the source is the internet? When I brought up the issue of source as issue you have with the information you completely changed the topic in your rebuttal. Do you have an issue with someone finding information on the internet? Do you have an issue with our news organizations? Do you have an issue with the Southern Poverty Law Center? I mean, that's where the information is coming from, so if you've got an issue there; fine. start bitching about Fox and MSNBC and the SPLC. Everyone in the Intelligence field knows that you don't just take Open Source Information and not cross reference the information and use other sources in conjunction. It's clear the sources for this document are suspect at least, and at most the way the Government handled the situation (That is, the method used to produce the report) shows how inept our Government truely is. If anyone, or any company (Yes, companies do have their own intelligence analysts/collectors) put together such a shoddy and ill-conceived report they would be fired immediately, yet because it is the Government you automatically give them creedence? I don't understand this line of logic and thinking. Step back and out of your partisan shoes. Just because the Government put something together doesn't mean it's accurate, or the methodology used wasn't flawed. The facts of the case point to both being the case; inaccurate and poor methodology to say the least. When you compare it to the report about Left-wing radicalism, in that report you clearly see specific groups, organizations, and other entities; where as in the Right-wing report you only see broad generalistic overtones and no specifics. I wonder why this is? Of course, it isn't to paint 45% of the country (Yes, 40-45% of the country see themselves as Conservative), as radicals in the face of the impending massive expansion of Government. No never. READ SAUL ALINSKY AND CLOWARD-PIVEN PLEASE. | ||
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LuckyOne
266 Posts
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imabossdude
United States23 Posts
On August 14 2009 15:14 LuckyOne wrote: you know people turn to crime if they cant get money any other way, whats the price of that? Any other way? Like getting a job? Cut grass if no one will hire you, im sure someone in a 5 mile radius will let you. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On August 14 2009 15:14 LuckyOne wrote: you know people turn to crime if they cant get money any other way, whats the price of that? Did you read the link I provided? It seems you haven't. Let me propose this to all you open-border types. The prospect of a country with no borders or sovereignty. Every person around the globe who sees America as a place to pillage freely. I guarantee you that if this Congress passes Amnesty and allows for massive unimpeded immigration, our debt will quadruple, unemployment will be permanently 8%+, taxes will have to be 60%+ (for everyone who works), just to pay a quarter of the unfunded liabilities and obligations of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, SCHIP, add in every other Entitlement program including educational pell-grants, free services, etc. You will see America double in population in 50 years. You will not be able to recognize America because these people have no incentive to assimilate, instead of becoming American they will instead be [insert country of origin] and have no loyalty. Immigration needs to be handled as it was for most of America. Quota system with the best and brightest getting admittance. That is the only sensible immigration policy. You break the law, doesn't matter whatever your excuse is, you reap the consequences (That is, you don't get paid and subsidized to break the law just so you can be a permenant vote for [insert your politician here]) | ||
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imabossdude
United States23 Posts
On August 14 2009 15:30 Aegraen wrote: Did you read the link I provided? It seems you haven't. Let me propose this to all you open-border types. The prospect of a country with no borders or sovereignty. Every person around the globe who sees America as a place to pillage freely. I guarantee you that if this Congress passes Amnesty and allows for massive unimpeded immigration, our debt will quadruple, unemployment will be permanently 8%+, taxes will have to be 60%+ (for everyone who works), just to pay a quarter of the unfunded liabilities and obligations of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, SCHIP, add in every other Entitlement program including educational pell-grants, free services, etc. You will see America double in population in 50 years. You will not be able to recognize America because these people have no incentive to assimilate, instead of becoming American they will instead be [insert country of origin] and have no loyalty. Immigration needs to be handled as it was for most of America. Quota system with the best and brightest getting admittance. That is the only sensible immigration policy. You break the law, doesn't matter whatever your excuse is, you reap the consequences (That is, you don't get paid and subsidized to break the law just so you can be a permenant vote for [insert your politician here]) If above happens, maybe a few states will secede and we can have the civil war all over again. JK about that, but seriously, its a screwed up scenario if you think about it. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Everyone in the Intelligence field knows that you don't just take Open Source Information and not cross reference the information and use other sources in conjunction. It's clear the sources for this document are suspect at least, and at most the way the Government handled the situation (That is, the method used to produce the report) shows how inept our Government truely is. Did you actually LOOK at the sources? Feel free to follow the links. The report's bullet points are news articles online from MSNBC and Fox. For some of your other 'issues', you state that 'specific organizations are named'. Well, they are here too. Go read the MIAC report. The majority of the substantive content is garnered from multiple sources, the main one being the SPLC. The SPLC is one of the only organizations actually documenting and commenting on the issue because they're interested in the welfare of poorer minorities. Now, here's what I find interesting: Despite no one mentioning any direct immigration issues here, you refer to use as 'open border' types. The SPLC pre-emptively noted this link, stating: A key difference this time is that the federal government — the entity that almost the entire radical right views as its primary enemy — is headed by a black man. That, coupled with high levels of non-white immigration and a decline in the percentage of whites overall in America, has helped to racialize the Patriot movement, which in the past was not primarily motivated by race hate. One result has been a remarkable rash of domestic terror incidents since the presidential campaign, most of them related to anger over the election of Barack Obama. At the same time, ostensibly mainstream politicians and media pundits have helped to spread Patriot and related propaganda, from conspiracy theories about a secret network of U.S. concentration camps to wholly unsubstantiated claims about the president's country of birth. This isn't about immigration reform or people patrolling the border. That's a completely separate issue. It would be about the transition that's made ideologically from defending the country from foreign threats to attacking government institutions themselves. The report isn't about people patrolling the border. Its about militia and other right wing extremists attacking government officials and bombing buildings. Also present at the Cochise County muster were members of Minuteman American Defense (MAD), the Everett, Wash.-based group led by Shawna Forde, who was arrested less than a month later in the May 30 double murder in Arivaca, Ariz. Also arrested were MAD Operations Director Jason Bush and a third MAD member. According to law enforcement authorities, the three believed the man they killed was a narcotics trafficker who kept large sums of money in his trailer. Forde's half-brother, Merill Metzger, told the Arizona Daily Star that shortly before the murders Forde started talking about forming an "underground militia" that would be funded by robbing drug dealers. "She was talking about starting a revolution against the United States government," he said. These aren't 'crazies'. These are senior members of militias actively trying to fund and foster revolution against the government. I have no issue with militias who don't ostensibly aim to overthrow their own government, but to claim that they don't exist when they've been proven to is hogwash. I have no issue with you taking a political stance on any of the issues you recurrently bring up; that's fine. What I have an issue with is people trying to shoot their way through those issues. So here's the question: Do you agree with the use of violence against the united states government given the current political climate? If no, then the admission of an equivalent left-wing report somewhat destroys the argument that this was an attempt at partisan demonization. | ||
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bN`
Slovenia504 Posts
Lets not fight and just enjoy the time we have left  | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
AGERSTOWN, Md. — The Secret Service is investigating a man who authorities said held a sign reading "Death to Obama" outside a town hall meeting on health-care reform in western Maryland. The sign also read, "Death to Michelle and her two stupid kids," referring to the first name of President Barack Obama's wife, said Washington County Sheriff's Capt. Peter Lazich. Lazich said deputies detained the unidentified, 51-year-old man near the entrance to Hagerstown Community College about 1 p.m. Wednesday after getting calls from a number of people attending the meeting held by Sen. Ben Cardin, D-Md. Obama was not at the meeting. The sheriff's office turned the man over to the Secret Service, Lazich said. Barbara Golden, special agent in charge of the agency's Baltimore field office, said Thursday that an investigation is ongoing but declined further comment. A spokesman at the agency's Washington headquarters also declined to discuss the investigation. Police said there were no other arrests among the nearly 1,000 people, some carrying protest signs, who came to the college for the meeting or demonstrated off-campus. Cardin's national communications director, Sue Walitsky, called the incident "unfortunate." She said she was unaware of it until Thursday morning. ![[image loading]](http://static.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2009/08/Death_Sign2_82322.jpg) ^ C&L Image http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jCgSUAAjXk2QnMqrDhdc8TFV8F_gD9A24JH80 http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/secret-service-looking-into-obama-joker-fax-2009-08-07.html http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=392&splcnewsletter=newsgen-081209 | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
What about all the people who wished for the death of President Bush? If you comb these forums alone, I'd be surprised if there weren't more than a hundred people expressing the desire to see President Bush assassinated. ...So does that mean that 8 years ago there was a massive left-wing conspiracy going on? The reality is that there are extremists on both ends of the political spectrum and even though the average person realizes they are crackpots they don't see it that way. Take this hypotehtical consideration: suppose 1% of America is fanatically right-wing extremist ("death to Obama") and suppose that 1% of America is fanatically left-win extremist ("death to Bush"). That means that roughly 6 million Americans are fanatically extremist in their thinking. That's a lot. Now suppose that in a given year, even just 1 in a thousand of those people does something serious during a given year. Serious as in starting a "death to Obama" chant or as in attaining high powered assault weapons and a map of Camp David and keeping track of President Bush's schedule (You may recognize these events as having actually happened... and for the record, most of the media sources I watched tried to make the kid stockpiling assault weapons out to be an "innocent youth"... just a mild difference in opinion...). Given our numbers here, that's as many as 6000 "serious" incidents a year. Plenty for the media to cover regardless of who is in office. Should the media choose to cover it, that is. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 15 2009 02:58 bN` wrote: Sorry Aegraen, we whites have had our run. We colonized the world and brought hi-tech stuff to undeveloped countries in exchange for their natural resources. Fueled by wealth and greed we created stupidly expensive status symbols for people to chase, all the while giving our careers the priority and neglecting our family life. As the white population aged slowly races with higher birth rates came in. Whites have had their run. Soon we will be the minority. Sound familiar? Think Indians. Lets not fight and just enjoy the time we have left I don't know about you, but I want to be treated fairly. I don't care if the President is black, white or Martian. I really don't. I just want to be given my fair shot. So let's not talk about "having our run" or anything like that because in this day and age that kind of thinking should be made obsolete. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On August 15 2009 04:02 Mortality wrote: It's funny how a few pictures of crackpots holding signs wishing death to President Obama can be used to sway public opinion into thinking that there is a dangerous massive right-wing conspiracy going on. What about all the people who wished for the death of President Bush? If you comb these forums alone, I'd be surprised if there weren't more than a hundred people expressing the desire to see President Bush assassinated. ...So does that mean that 8 years ago there was a massive left-wing conspiracy going on? The reality is that there are extremists on both ends of the political spectrum and even though the average person realizes they are crackpots they don't see it that way. Take this hypotehtical consideration: suppose 1% of America is fanatically right-wing extremist ("death to Obama") and suppose that 1% of America is fanatically left-win extremist ("death to Bush"). That means that roughly 6 million Americans are fanatically extremist in their thinking. That's a lot. Now suppose that in a given year, even just 1 in a thousand of those people does something serious during a given year. Serious as in starting a "death to Obama" chant or as in attaining high powered assault weapons and a map of Camp David and keeping track of President Bush's schedule (You may recognize these events as having actually happened... and for the record, most of the media sources I watched tried to make the kid stockpiling assault weapons out to be an "innocent youth"... just a mild difference in opinion...). Given our numbers here, that's as many as 6000 "serious" incidents a year. Plenty for the media to cover regardless of who is in office. Should the media choose to cover it, that is. While I agree with your points, I just wanted to say that there's a huge difference (IMO) between some stupid kid talking shit online and a 50 year old guy holding up a sign in real life. Even though the 50 yr old is unlikely to do anything serious, he's much more likely than anyone talking smack on a Broodwar site. Even the age is an important difference IMO. A 50 yr old generally has much stronger convictions and will do more for them, especially considering his life is more than half over. A kid stockpiling weapons is probably just as concerned with how manly he'll look to his friends/girlfriend as he is about his political convictions, or even more so. Of course this is all opinion, but it doesn't really matter. Secret service would own the shit outta either of them. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398403,00.html | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
The reality is that there are extremists on both ends of the political spectrum and even though the average person realizes they are crackpots they don't see it that way. Well, that's the entire point. There were reports on crazies on each end of the spectrum. The fact that some political figures were mentioned in the right wing extremism report had it repealed despite the fact that the content isn't invalid. That said, if you're on the 'end' of either spectrum, it looks very much like the center itself is the perpetuator of a conspiracy to enforce a maladjusted status quo. That's why its so difficult for people of any stripe to accept new information in hyper-labeled/spectrumed/categorized issues. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 15 2009 06:29 L wrote: Well, that's the entire point. There were reports on crazies on each end of the spectrum. The fact that some political figures were mentioned in the right wing extremism report had it repealed despite the fact that the content isn't invalid. That said, if you're on the 'end' of either spectrum, it looks very much like the center itself is the perpetuator of a conspiracy to enforce a maladjusted status quo. That's why its so difficult for people of any stripe to accept new information in hyper-labeled/spectrumed/categorized issues. From the media I've seen, I would argue that there is, on average, a considerably greater left-wing bias. The media these days seems to be highly polarized in general. Very few people report objectively. When John Stewart and Stephen Colbert are about as close to objective as you're liabel to get, you've got problems. Of course there are good journalists, people like Thomas Friedman, who I greatly respect, but sorting through all of the garbage is a mind-numbing business. In general, the only bigtime conservative reporters tend to be tools like Bill O'Reilly and most of them were raised in religious right households. People like me (socially moderate: don't have strong leanings on issues like "gay rights" or abortion, big fan of intellectual freedom in general, but also an advocate of sufficient defense, but not an advocate of invading Iran, cough, cough; fiscally conservative: generally view globalization favorably, want what's best for a competitive market -- which is not always what Wall Street asks for, cough, cough) are generally disenfranchised. The right wing seems to be getting hung up on religion and the left win seems to be hung up on But looking at the overall balance, other than crackpots like O'Reilly, there really aren't enough people engaging in critical discussion of Obama's policies and his flops. Where has been the critical analysis of this massive deficit spending? That was one of the reasons why the public didn't want to see a Republican take office after Bush and yet there's surprisingly little criticism of this spending (and virtually no reporting of it prior to the election despite the implications that it would occur that anyone with the least bit of brains could deduce just by listening to Obama's speeches). Where was the coverage of the gift faux pas Obama made with the British Prime Minister? I originally read about it in the back pages of the Washington Post. Here, I found this coverage of it online in a 5 second search: ...Worse, no one is 100% sure that Obama was smart enough to know that DVDs made in America don't play on European DVD players. American DVDs are created in the "Region One" format while those in Europe play in "Region Two" format. A U.S. DVD just won't play on a machine made for the English market.... ...All of this is on top of the snub of the Brits that Obama tossed off immediately upon entering office. One of his first official acts was to summarily return to the Brits the generous gift of the most famous bust of Winston Churchill that has sat in the Oval Office since the attacks on 9/11.... http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2009/03/07/obamas-british-gift-gaffe-not-reported-u-s-media (I have no idea what the leanings of that website are and I don't care -- I read about this in the Washington Post, which is definitely not a conservative paper.) And here, again, found in the same Google search: Barack Obama met the Queen at Buckingham Palace today and gave her a gift of an iPod loaded with video footage and photographs of her 2007 United States visit to Richmond, Jamestown and Williamsburg in Virginia. In return, the Queen gave the President a silver framed signed photograph of herself and the Duke of Edinburgh - apparently a standard present for visiting dignitaries. It is believed the Queen already has an iPod, a 6GB silver Mini version she is said to have bought in 2005 at the suggestion of Prince Andrew... I hadn't even heard about this one at all. It was not covered by the American media. Website: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/9355453/Barack_Obamas_gift_for_the_Queen_an_iPod_your_Majesty/ I find all of this disgusting. How many major news commentators hailed him as a genius at foreign policy? And yet he doesn't even know how to give a gift? For crying out loud, even I could do better and I'm a fucking nerd! The problem with accepting information is how badly it gets tampered with. Speeches get parsed so badly by reporters that the public doesn't even know the gist of the original argument. When data is used it is more often misused or taken out of context. Aegraen was right when he said that you cannot even trust government sources (in fact, having worked for the government, I know exactly how untrustworthy it really is...) since few people are honorable enough to give an unbiased report when the money is coming from someone with an agenda. In recent years, this trend has even pervaded into science. Despite the mistakes he made in his argument about global warming in State of Fear Crichton was spot on when he said that environmentalism has become a big industry that manipulates results (there really are a lot of scientific papers out there that start off by talking about global warming and then provide data for an unrelated phenomenon or data that even seems contradictory to popular theories on global warming -- that is not to say that global warming is "wrong" or anything like that, but that even science is not immune to this disease known as "politics"). I have not read the particular article you were talking about in your posts. However, in my mind, all of this leads to only one inevitable conclusion: the end of the United States of America as we know it. I said earlier in this thread that we shouldn't talk about "the end of the run" for an ethnic group, but talking about it for a country is different, and given our incompetent media and incompetent political leaders and our moral degredation, I cannot help but see us as done. What I wish is that at least some of the media would have the balls to talk seriously about serious issues. I don't give a piece of crap where Obama eats pizza. I want people to question him. If the media cannot do that, then I cannot take them seriously. Nor can I take seriously their claims of "right-wing extremism" if they aren't going to be critical of the man in charge. The public went heavily liberal last election. I think that says more than anything else. So I'd like to cut the bullcrap and move on. And I need to go to bed because I'm rambling really badly now. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
You guys need more parties. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On August 15 2009 13:28 Mortality wrote: What I wish is that at least some of the media would have the balls to talk seriously about serious issues. I don't give a piece of crap where Obama eats pizza. I want people to question him. If the media cannot do that, then I cannot take them seriously. Nor can I take seriously their claims of "right-wing extremism" if they aren't going to be critical of the man in charge. The public went heavily liberal last election. I think that says more than anything else. So I'd like to cut the bullcrap and move on. Find better media. Everything on TV is garbage and most blogs have a terrible slant. Nothing is truly in the center, but you can find somewhat right/left newspapers like WSJ and Washington Post. CS Monitor and Financial Times put out excellent articles as well. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 14 2009 08:09 imabossdude wrote: I'm saying that illegal aliens are leeching off of our country and don't have to pay for hardly any of it. Another portion feels entitled and seeks handouts. I know you probably agree to GB's expansion of government, and look how thats worked out for you guys... I don't endorse free healthcare to illegal aliens or skipping out on paying taxes that everyone else has to pay. So basically, what I'm trying to say is... What the hell are you talking about? I don't believe in the redistribution of wealth. If you don't want to work hard and get education, that's fine, its a free country. But don't expect everyone else to pay for it. Canada's free healthcare program does not give healthcare to those that aren't citizens or permanent residences. University students receive healthcare too, but that's arguably paid out from our tuition as much as taxes. Even if the US begins free healthcare, (which it should, being that it's the only developed nation without it, which is pretty embarrassing for a nation that still considers itself the only world power) there is very little to suggest that illegal aliens will be able to benefit from the free healthcare. Also, redistribution of wealth is required as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. What good will come out of a class struggle? Poverty has much more to do than some simple bullshit about how the poor should stop complaining and get an education or find work. It's not like every single individual that lives in poverty is poor because they're lazy and uneducated. Anyone who looks at the poor with such ignorant stupidity needs to have their property seized and thrown into a life of poverty until they really understand it. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
PHOENIX – About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president. The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_protesters_guns | ||
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