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On March 31 2009 03:35 Chef wrote: I was only claiming you can measure a persons consciousness as "existent" or "non-existent." I wasn't trying to claim you're going to be able to decipher their internal dialogue from some MRI scans. Just that every thought is linked to some part of the brain, and we know this because of scans. So it's safe to assume that in the absence of a living brain, there is no consciousness.
I agree that it's safe to assume that in the absence of a living brain, there is no consciousness.
However, you can not measure someone's consciousness as existent or non-existent. You can only measure their brain activity. Once again: linking consciousness to brain activity faces serious problems (there is a lot of discussion on what consciousness exactly is, to which parts of the brain it might be connected if at all, etc) You might look at it as a current, updated version of the age-old problem of other minds (how do I know you're not a robot blablabla), although it's still a little different.
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On March 31 2009 02:44 Chef wrote: They could lie, or the question could be inappropriate to ask (and often is, when you're curious). Except it IS knowable. A situation in which they do tell you is conceivable. Whether they choose to tell you is a different matter, but it is something that CAN be found out. In the case of what happened at the beginning of time, you can't conceivably create a situation in which you'd be able to observe that.
At this point, I fail to even see where you're going anymore. The point I made was that religion can be useful in helping one cope with things that are morally or rationally unresolvable, not by providing answers (which is the problem you seem to have with religion), but by establishing that there ARE answers. Whether you personally need that for peace of mind is up to you, but I don't believe that its a character flaw to want those sorts of things resolved. In any case, even if you don't agree that religion is useful to an individual for resolving these sorts of questions, can you agree that as a cultural construct, its useful for establishing stability and connectivity in societies?
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I don't think even if someone asked me and I agreed, that I could give a decent description of my thoughts to be honest. And in the event there was someone who could, I would always wonder if they were telling the truth or not.
I believe I've lost track of what the point of this argument is. So I can't observe the beginning of the universe. Right. I'm not losing sleep because of that. Whether someone tells me 'God knows, and he'll tell you one day' or 'when you get to the age of 50, a little blue faerie flies into your head and tells you' doesn't change that. Both are useless, unreliable and provide no additional comfort whatsoever. I'd rather be a ghost who can go back and forth thru time at will, and hang out with other ghosts, and live in a grassy green field with bunny rabbits when I die. Then I'll be able to personally observer the beginning of time. I'll believe that if I want. It's better than having to prove myself to skybeard.
EDIT: Since you added to your post... I'll answer your last question. Yes, religion can be used as a social tool. Some religions more than others, some religions with less damage than others. When I speak of religion, yes, I'm largely thinking about Christians and Muslims. The thing is... You don't need religion for a social tool. There are other social tools without all the drawbacks of many major religions. Sports, for example. Work, for another. Going for walks outside, or to the market. School. Etc etc. Religion is an inferior social tool because it bonds people together while excluding others (and all the crap about memorising and living your life by arbitrary rules.)
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On March 31 2009 03:55 Chef wrote: I believe I've lost track of what the point of this argument is. So I can't observe the beginning of the universe. Right. I'm not losing sleep because of that. Whether someone tells me 'God knows, and he'll tell you one day' or 'when you get to the age of 50, a little blue faerie flies into your head and tells you' doesn't change that. Both are useless, unreliable and provide no additional comfort whatsoever. I'd rather be a ghost who can go back and forth thru time at will, and hang out with other ghosts, and live in a grassy green field with bunny rabbits when I die. Then I'll be able to personally observer the beginning of time. I'll believe that if I want. It's better than having to prove myself to skybeard. I believe the argument started with someone who seemed to express doubt that religion was a useful construct. I was merely trying to establish that, whether or not you believe in the efficacy of religion, that it is useful, either on a personal level for helping to cope with unresolvable questions (not everyone needs those questions resolved, but given the large number of people who do follow a religion in this world, its significant to a good portion of the world), or on a societal level, where religion has historically helped establish stability in cultures. To say that religion as a concept is flawed, or that religious piety has direct correlation to some negative character trait, is overbroad, and IMO false.
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I don't think many people would agree that religion has stimulated stability historically. It's been very corrupt for a very long time.
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On March 31 2009 04:05 Chef wrote: I don't think many people would agree that religion has stimulated stability historically. It's been very corrupt for a very long time. If religion hasn't established stability historically, then why have so many rulers in history established their legitimacy through religion?
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Probably the same reason so many wars have gained support through religion (have you seen the middle east lately? Very nice stable little place since all it's leaders are very religious).
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On March 31 2009 04:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2009 04:05 Chef wrote: I don't think many people would agree that religion has stimulated stability historically. It's been very corrupt for a very long time. If religion hasn't established stability historically, then why have so many rulers in history established their legitimacy through religion?
Without Christianity Europe would've been a hellhole even till this day probably.
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True story.
Sometimes, when I come home at 3am, I ask God to give me parking. Always works.
I live around 233rd in the Bronx, near Our Lady of Mercy, so this is basically a miracle.
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On March 29 2009 14:25 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 14:21 404.Nintu wrote:On March 29 2009 14:04 PokePill wrote:On March 29 2009 13:06 GrayArea wrote: How I believe in God
Many people, especially on this forum, do not believe in God. After all, there is no proof, no actual evidence. Christians have the Bible which talks about Jesus and his life, Muslims have the Quran, Jews have the Hebrew Bible. Is what is stated in these books enough to justify the belief, the acceptance that some omniscient being exists in this universe who created us and watches over us?
Some people say seeing is believing. In my case, hearing was believing. I will never forget this day in my entire life, it was the day God spoke to me.
In ninth grade, a new girl joined our class. She was the prettiest girl I had ever seen. Our high school was relatively small (about 1000 people), so I knew she was new immediately and I would often see her around campus. I didn't have any classes with her, and whenever I saw her, I would just admire everything about her beauty. It was a typical high school crush. She never talked to me, and I never said a word to her that year.
Fastforward a year to tenth grade. I walked into first period Health class with my best friend, sat down, looked around, didn't notice anyone in particular and went through the class. The second day, as I walked into the room I noticed her sitting in the class and realized that I must have not noticed her on the first day. Naturally my heart jumped, I became super self-conscious, did I look cool? Was every single movement I did perfect? etc etc.
We still never talked, I would sometimes look at her and then when she turn her head to me I would suddenly look away to pretend I was looking at something else (lol, I would cringe on the inside and hope she didn't notice I was looking at her, so stupid). When we would pass in the hall, I would look at her also and sometimes she would notice me. I think she saw in my eyes that I liked her or something, don't know, don't care.
It was in 10th grade that I began to question life. "What is the purpose of life?" was a question that was incessantly bothering me so deeply for such a long time. I would ask my friends what the purpose of life was, and they would respond with "I don't know" "To die" "I haven't thought about it yet" etc. I wasn't satisfied. I come from a religious family, so the fact that God exists was a possibility.
One day, during one of my deep reflections, I was contemplating Gods existence. I closed my eyes and prayed/said to myself that if God really did exist, then tomorrow that girl would say "Hi" to me at school. Basically I was offering a test to God, if God existed he would make this near impossible thing happen.
Next day was a hearing/vision test at school. They test the hearing and vision of every student and determine whether or not that student has any weaknesses. It was during first period health class that we had our test. Along with several other classes, we went to line up outside the trailer where they would test our hearing. Finally, when my turn came, a group of us students went in (like 11 of us). In that group was her. Because it was in the trailer type of thing, the seats were faced such that two rows were facing each other and each seat had side panels (like a booth). I was at the second seat from the end of one row, she was at the opposite row at the end (so like 4 seats distance). We were waiting for the test to begin. Some of the students were talking with each other. I was just sitting forward in my seat. Randomly, from the right, I hear "Hey GrayArea." I didn't look at her, nor did I say anything or make any change in my expression. Again I hear, "Hey GrayArea, did you really have an A in Hilmerson?"I turned my head to face her, saw she was looking to me, and then I turned my face back straight without saying anything and sat back in my chair so she couldn't see me. She asked the question again, this time I told her yes.
After the hearing test was the vision test. Our group was the last group to go in for the vision test. For some reason, mine and her tests took longer than the other peoples'. Because of this we were the only two still taking the test while everyone else went back to class. Finally, my test finished before hers, and I walked out and was heading back to class. Suddenly I hear, "Hey GrayArea, wait for me!" I looked around and noticed her running towards me as she tried to catch up. I slowed down so she could reach me, and we walked back to class together. I asked her if what grade she had in Hilmerson (Hilmerson is the name of a really hard English teacher that taught 10th grade). She said she had a B. That was all we said to each other, but for some reason I felt my attraction to her go away. I had gotten my impossible answer from God and was blown away.
Why was it that over the period of 1 and half years that this girl didn't say one single word to me, that on this very day she said Hey to me? Why was it that on she happened to talk to me on the very day that I had asked God to make her talk to me? Coincidence? Maybe. Culmination of all the times I looked at her and she noticed? Maybe. Luck? Perhaps. I don't know. What I do know is that from this day I realized God had responded to me, and that somehow, somewhere I knew someone/something heard me.
I don't consider this event to be the sole experience which verified to me that God existed. That would be pure stupidity. After all, like I said, it could have been coincidence. But, it provided for me the stepping stone I needed to take the leap of faith of believing in God. Whenever I prayed, I prayed with a sense of knowing someone was listening. I could feel something inside which felt as though God was within me. Every time I would close my eyes and pray to God, some energy would burst from within me filling me with this warmth.
Why? Because I prayed with the genuine belief that I knew God existed. Prior to that, I would pray with some uncertainty. Was anyone listening to me? Was I just wasting my time? There was no strong, central belief that allowed me to pray with my full heart.
What is God? Is God some external being that exists somewhere far away in space and is viewing the world somehow? Does he exist in heaven (where is heaven though in space?)? Is God some kind of essence that resides within our bodies? Is God just an idea created by our minds in order to help make us feel as though we have a purpose and place in this world and that someone is watching over us?
I can't answer any of these questions. What I can tell you though is that God to me is someone who is the source of that energy I feel when I pray, listens to me, and has an effect on my life and the world around me.
Many people at some point have questioned what you questioned and done the same exact thing and you know what happens? Nothing. They get spat on by your "God." I do envy you, that you think your special enough for God to go out of his way to make something completely meaningless give you meaning. I wish I could have faith. That being said, 2 stars. this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. You believe in something that is part god part genie. lool That's not how it works with (most) faith based religions. In Christianity, for example, I know that it's about Faith. Faith isn't about "Oh, if I pray, he will do what I say." Faith is about "If I pray, and I'm not magically cured, I will take faith in him anyway, and continue to pray, and maintain my faith in that which cannot be shown to me." If he is openly revealed to you, it wouldn't be faith. It would be belief based on empirical evidence. Yeah it's the fucking no-lose for god.. If you pray and I grant your prayer > It is divine intervention If you pray and I don't' do anything > Wait a little longer
Hm, basically Blizzard is a god. You try to login to wow, it either grants your wish, and you login, or you have to stay in a queue and wait a little longer.
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On March 31 2009 04:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2009 04:05 Chef wrote: I don't think many people would agree that religion has stimulated stability historically. It's been very corrupt for a very long time. If religion hasn't established stability historically, then why have so many rulers in history established their legitimacy through religion?
Because if you have a bunch of uneducated idiots running around thinking the ruler is some god or the chosen voice of the lord, they're not going to try to usurp his power?
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On March 31 2009 21:47 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2009 04:09 TheYango wrote:On March 31 2009 04:05 Chef wrote: I don't think many people would agree that religion has stimulated stability historically. It's been very corrupt for a very long time. If religion hasn't established stability historically, then why have so many rulers in history established their legitimacy through religion? Because if you have a bunch of uneducated idiots running around thinking the ruler is some god or the chosen voice of the lord, they're not going to try to usurp his power? Thats my point.
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How does that make them legitimate in any way??
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