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8748 Posts
100% agree and endorse
non-triggers are so powerful against good players
i would add that you need to re-evaluate everything as your mechanics improve and/or your opponents' mechanics improve. im always cautious about advising people with my triggers and non-triggers because the things that my micro and macro can make possible, and my opponent's micro and macro can make possible, can vastly change the triggers.
some tricky triggers / non-triggers that i use:
for pvt, when range is done and i have a dragoon chasing an scv, i change to a move command for a while and then stop chasing. the terran knows my range should be done, but it's clearly not, so he prepares for some really fast DT or reaver
when i go 2gate obs, and my goons are harrassing his wall and see the CC, then i don't need the obs for a while, since i know his build. i either don't build obs, or i don't send them to his base. if he sees the little blurs, then he knows that i've gone 2gate obs. NOT seeing the obs could be a non-trigger for him. i don't let him have that info
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I like your audios, you should provide also a direct link to hear it like a podcast. Thank you
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man, these audio logs are a really good break from reading all the time.
really helpful. keep it up man.
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On January 20 2009 21:48 Battle wrote:
I like your audios, you should provide also a direct link to hear it like a podcast. Thank you
Day[9] monthly/weekly podcast! YEAH!
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On January 20 2009 13:03 Day[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2009 12:53 Not_Computer wrote:
Btw, every time you say "absolutely CRITICAL", it makes me sit up straight and listen intently, rofl. aahahahahahah this makes me giggle teheheheheheheh
I actually rewinded when you said "If you remember one part, let it be this"
Thanks again for this great lecture. I wish my teachers could talk this comprehensive and clear.
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the invisible player segment made me see why starcraft is so closely related to poker
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I am really enjoying these "podcasts"! Thanks a lot Day9!
On January 20 2009 22:05 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2009 21:48 Battle wrote:
I like your audios, you should provide also a direct link to hear it like a podcast. Thank you Day[9] monthly/ weekly podcast! YEAH!
+1
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On January 20 2009 22:05 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2009 21:48 Battle wrote:
I like your audios, you should provide also a direct link to hear it like a podcast. Thank you Day[9] monthly/weekly podcast! YEAH!
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wow, this was so amazing I now know how I should try to improve the build I ben working on lately.
thanks alot.
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A W S O M E
wow, Starcraft is science!
On January 20 2009 22:05 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2009 21:48 Battle wrote:
I like your audios, you should provide also a direct link to hear it like a podcast. Thank you Day[9] monthly/weekly podcast! YEAH!
+1
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On January 20 2009 22:05 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2009 21:48 Battle wrote:
I like your audios, you should provide also a direct link to hear it like a podcast. Thank you Day[9] monthly/weekly podcast! YEAH! +1... I don't see who wouldn't +1 that idea.
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LOL i thought this was going to be about map making triggers
Will still listen later
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Thank you Day[9], for this and the previous audio. It's always a pleasure hearing your insight on different subjects, and you've got the voice and speech rhythm that's perfect for this type of recording. You can tell that you are really passionate about the subjects you address.
As an aspiring Zerg player (and an aspiring competitive player in general) I feel really happy that you are investing your time in providing these guides or commentaries or rants or whatever you'd like to call them. I think this one is on a level that is above where I'm at right now, but it is something that I will keep in the back of my head as I improve, and I don't doubt having heard this will help make me a better player in the end.
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Thanks a lot, I really hope this improves my play.
I can't wait to hear your next audio guide. I'd really love to see an audio about mechanics/macro/hotkeys, the technical aspect of SC since this seems to be what gives me the most trouble. As a D- player, not being able to execute a simple mech push is pretty frustrating :/
Then again it's probably too broad a topic to really talk about much.
Can't wait for the next audio! :D
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On January 20 2009 14:36 Day[9] wrote:
OH also
an EXCELLENT example of the "imaginary player" in action is a simple 9pool speedling vs protoss fast expand.
the protoss has a VERY long time with virtually NO knowledge, and hence he must account for a huge number of imaginary opponents. consequently, the info-starved protoss MUST make extra cannons/units in order to hold off potential attacks (ling bust, hydra bust, muta rush, fast lurker drop) that may come while still holding off more standard transitions (mass midgame hydra, standard lurker/ling tech play etc etc etc)
yarr!
I have a question involving the invisible player for your opponent. A while ago I was solely doing overpool into 6 speedlings and denying scout while taking 2 bases, and against the people who were experienced enough to be afraid of the sight of speedlings this earlier, I was able to catch up in economy despite the low drone number, just by the threat of a runby, 2hatch hydra/lurk/muta, when the P cautiously added cannons at his nat/main. But sometimes I find when playing at the lower levels, D through C-, the players will add no additional defenses anywhere, and be perfectly safe as they continue their planned build as if no threat ever existed, as I won't be able to punish them with just 6 lings that late into the game.
So my question is, do you stay away from these builds that are in large part based on the fear of an early cheese when playing against people who don't take into consideration the invisible player?
Also a 2nd question, how do you change your mindset and the builds you use when playing against people that you are extremely familiar with. On iccup I tend to just stick to 1-2 builds max per MU, as the people you are playing have no past experience playing you, and whether you've done a build 1 or 100 times in a row has no effect on this 1 game.
After months of playing games with teammates I've noticed the consistency of my builds are starting to work against me, and players who in the past would play even games with me, are starting to roll me just by virtue of knowing what I'm going to do. Part of this is the notion that going 3hat muta in zvt is accepted as the best way to get better at the MU, but part of it for me is also that I feel very uncomfortable playing when starting off with a 2hatch build instead of a 3hatch. If the game goes past 10 minutes I notice a considerable drop in my management of the game. Could you provide some insight in how to continue with a game that opening in an unorthadox way, but continues past the opening in a more orthadox way? I find that too many of my timings and triggers are based on 1 particular opening.
My last 2 questions are these. How(if at all) do you change how you play given there is lots of history between you and your opponent. And how important is it for your overall ability as a player to be able to be comfortable using 5-6 builds per MU.
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On January 21 2009 05:51 lgdDante wrote:
I have a question involving the invisible player for your opponent. A while ago I was solely doing overpool into 6 speedlings and denying scout while taking 2 bases, and against the people who were experienced enough to be afraid of the sight of speedlings this earlier, I was able to catch up in economy despite the low drone number, just by the threat of a runby, 2hatch hydra/lurk/muta, when the P cautiously added cannons at his nat/main. But sometimes I find when playing at the lower levels, D through C-, the players will add no additional defenses anywhere, and be perfectly safe as they continue their planned build as if no threat ever existed, as I won't be able to punish them with just 6 lings that late into the game.
So my question is, do you stay away from these builds that are in large part based on the fear of an early cheese when playing against people who don't take into consideration the invisible player?
It seems your question is "what if he DOESNT worry about my deviations, and that he somehow just plays the 1 thing that works vs my build and sucks vs all the things i didn't (but could have) done?"
What you're asking about is something I'd call the potential advantages of a build. Let's first consider a straightforward example: going 3hatch mutalisk opening vs terran (a very standard opening). The goal of mutalisks is to perform some harass: to kill some SCVs and marines, force him to make turrets, and gain some map control. This harass is a [i]necessary, intentional component of 3hatch openings. HOWEVER, the mutalisk harass has the potential advantage to win the game outright if the terran player is not careful. When planning a 3hatch opening out, the zerg player doesn't rely on the "potential win," rather he plans on performing SOME harassment with a later game plan in mind.
In your 9pool example, its critical to note that one of the potential advantages of the 9pool is to force the player to make certain buildings later on (cannons in the back, more cannons at the front etc). Forcing these buildings delays later protoss aggression. However, such forcing is NOT critical. Critical components of the 9pool would be forcing the forge before the nexus (delaying the expo), killing scouting probes (you don't worry about proxy buildings and you gain map control), the opportunity to power drones (you can send overlords in and you have speedlings to help in case of emergencies) etc etc etc. A fundamental mistake many players make is failing to distinguish between potential advantages and necessary components of certain build orders.
That said, suppose you are playing an opponent who is (incorrectly) staying super light on defenses and your 9pool doesn't feel effective. I would then say that there are other faults of your 9pool style that must be worked out to account for such players. Believe me, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about and its annoying, but there ARE solutions. You want to exploit the weaknesses that DO occur, not scratch your head when he doesn't make the mistakes you want.
On January 21 2009 05:51 lgdDante wrote:
Also a 2nd question, how do you change your mindset and the builds you use when playing against people that you are extremely familiar with. On iccup I tend to just stick to 1-2 builds max per MU, as the people you are playing have no past experience playing you, and whether you've done a build 1 or 100 times in a row has no effect on this 1 game.
After months of playing games with teammates I've noticed the consistency of my builds are starting to work against me, and players who in the past would play even games with me, are starting to roll me just by virtue of knowing what I'm going to do. Part of this is the notion that going 3hat muta in zvt is accepted as the best way to get better at the MU, but part of it for me is also that I feel very uncomfortable playing when starting off with a 2hatch build instead of a 3hatch. If the game goes past 10 minutes I notice a considerable drop in my management of the game. Could you provide some insight in how to continue with a game that opening in an unorthadox way, but continues past the opening in a more orthadox way? I find that too many of my timings and triggers are based on 1 particular opening.
My last 2 questions are these. How(if at all) do you change how you play given there is lots of history between you and your opponent. And how important is it for your overall ability as a player to be able to be comfortable using 5-6 builds per MU.
One of THE WORST mistakes I see players make is to think that you need to have "a variety of builds under your belt." If your build struggles to beat a player you've played several times, then your build is flawed. I've had multiple experiences where I played a player 10 games in a row and performed the exact same build in each game and won all of them.
Consider the following concept: you fine tune your builds to beat a specific RACE, NOT a specific player. A terran player who knows you intimately is STILL JUST A TERRAN. Abuse the apparent weaknesses in the race.
I do empathize with your concern of repetition. For some reason, it's easy to feel "uncomfortable" doing the same opening for the 3rd game in a row. Your brain tells you "do something else." Definitely practice ignoring what your brain is telling you. Comfortably perform the same build over and over and over and over again whether you are playing the same player or a different one. As I said in the audio, NOTHING surprises me ever. This is not a consequence of my understanding of the player, but rather my understanding of the race.
In my general scheme of practice, every time there's a new map of the week, I create a new account on iCCUP (or PGT back then) and forge a new build and practice ONLY that build for the week. By the end of the week, after working out all sorts of kinks, I'm sitting pretty on a new solid build on a new map, a build solid enough to beat the same player time in and time out. In fact, when I'm training for a tournament my practice partners, I VERY regularly give my opponents vision. I play in the dark while he has complete knowledge of what i'm doing. I still win an overwhelming majority of games, not because I know my opponents well, but rather because I know when and how each race can win and lose.[/b]
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lol....
these imaginary players sound more like
quantum players  (every possibility is actually there until observed)
Definitely good information... no wonder good players can rape with any race... they know all the timings down
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If you're completely even in terms of skill level with your opponent when he doesn't know what you're going to do, won't you be at a disadvantage when he does? I understand what you're getting at, but not everyone is that good enough at starcraft to the point where they could win with their opponents having vision of them. If you have some solid TvP build but everyone knows they can 14nexus against you and you won't be able to punish them, won't that hurt you if you're about even in skill level?
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Great speech hehe. Really really insightful. Yesterday I was playing a PvT and didnt know when the hell to take the nat when the terran was making a 3fact push. I am sure i will get a practice partner and then find the trigger i am looking for.
Hope you keep these up man, it's inspiring and rare to hear such a good narration on such complex topics on this community.
Im gonna use this as sleeping CDs so this burns in haha
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EPT
