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Thank you very much Day[9]. I found this very helpful. Please keep doing them.
One of my questions:
+ Show Spoiler +Example: TvP Othello Using your trigger theory.
Let's say you open with a 1 fact FE, and the daring protoss like many seem to do nowadays goes 1 gate goons into fe (with obs/reaver drop/DT/etc. I don't think it matters much) and no one does any major damage. You try to get some vult harass in, he denies it, he tries DT drop you, you fend it off with any losses. So now he is going for his fast 3rd and you are going for a 6fact timing push, which is one of the triggers you had planned to use for a standard game like this. Assuming you were playing a player with equal macro/micro/mechanics/etc you push out at whatever your supply count is. This supply count has been chosen as one of your triggers. For ex. TvP on this map for a 6fact timing push you push out at 80 supply. Another one of your triggers is "right when I push out at 80 supply with my timing push I will take my 3rd".
So you push out and one of the 3 options happens:
a) your push is successful, you either contain him, do major damage, or kill him
b) your armies were about equal in strength and he 1a2a3 flanks you, both your armies are basically dead.
c) he just just just overmacroed you and after destroying your push his remaining units come to pressure your 3rd that you just start.
If a) happens, you would continue on with your "triggers" (for ex. when my 3rd finishes I will add 2 more facts then build a CC for my 4th). everything is all good.
But what about b) or c)? In your plan are you supposed to have a backup for when you can't continue on with your triggers? If you did add 2 more facts and start your 4th CC like you planned right after c) has happened, he will continue to pressure you, killing off your 3rd and you are extremely behind. This really throws me off when it happens to me. I go into the game with the mindset that "I will not forget to expand, when I push out with my 6fact timing push at ___ supply i will remember to start my 3rd immediately." Then I find out that c) happened and I'm totally lost. I either end up continuing on taking my 3rd, and I get crushed, or I come up with something completely random like mass vult harass and I end up forgetting to expand while doing that. If I try to slow push or something and take my 3rd, I then realize he is just about to recall in my base, or has carriers. Are you ever too far behind where you don't have the economy to continue on with your triggers and defend against the imaginary player at the same time?
So in summary, do I need backup triggers? If so should I ever just stop and think that "I'm too far behind, there's no way my planned out triggers will work anymore?"
Sorry for the long question...
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Grobyc:
i hope i'm understanding your question right. correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe you are asking the following: "My plan is X. If plan X fails miserably, I fully intend on making an adjustment after the game. However, I'm confused when plan X only kinda doesn't work. Should I immediately leave the game and focus on how to make plan X work? Should I continue to play and get back on the track of plan X? Should I abandon plan X completely?"
Let me try to answer THAT question. If ever your game goes in a completely unexpected and undesired direction, I think it's critical to rework your trigger to ensure that the game flows in the proper direction. If your plan kinda fails, I recommend the following: treat the "before messup" portion of the game as a learning experience for reworking the trigger. treat the "after messup" portion of the game as a learning experience for managing a crisis. i always have some vague "backup" plan that I practice in those situations.
For example: In ZvP, suppose I have a style that involves making a big lurker/ling/hydra army and controlling the center of the map. Theoretically, I desire to keep the protoss from ever getting too close to my expansions via ground. Occasionally, protoss will walk over my center army and crush me immediately. Obviously, I rework the build. Suppose though, that he only barely kills off my main army. At this point, I can no longer do my "big lurker/ling/hydra control middle" army, so I turtle hard w/ lurkers+sunkens and become that annoying zerg that drops all over the place until he has 50 billion ultras. In this instance, i use the early game to help me analyze my original theory of play, whereas i use the lategame to help me practice some brutal tactics and high intensity in game decision making.
I hope that sorta answers what you were going for
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Amazing audio. I'm going to try and use this on the rare occasions I do play.
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Triggers and non-triggers backfiring:
Upmagic vs. By.Hero on destination -- upmagic hides his starting barracks in the back of his main. By.Hero doesn't see it and thinks proxy barracks. he loses the entire game based on this choice.
Upmagic vs. some toss on hitchhiker -- upmagic builds 2rax at start. toss scouts. upmagic kills probe. upmagic lifts rax and then builds a CC and FEs for free while the toss builds cannons and blocks his ramp with zealots and dragoons and doesn't figure it out until it's too late.
edit: i got accused of maphacking once but it was only because i scouted the guy opening 3rax. in TERRAN VS. TERRAN????... so i went 2 fact vult and cleaned him up. he called me a hacker and disconected after going 1base BC and it failing miserably after i contained him and mass expo'd. I looked at the replay in bwchart and he had autosplit hacks... he was probably maphacking.
double edit: talking about it backfiring isn't meant as a criticism, this is a wonderful post Day i love it seriously thanks dude
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On January 20 2009 13:49 Day[9] wrote:
Grobyc:
i hope i'm understanding your question right. correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe you are asking the following: "My plan is X. If plan X fails miserably, I fully intend on making an adjustment after the game. However, I'm confused when plan X only kinda doesn't work. Should I immediately leave the game and focus on how to make plan X work? Should I continue to play and get back on the track of plan X? Should I abandon plan X completely?"
Let me try to answer THAT question. If ever your game goes in a completely unexpected and undesired direction, I think it's critical to rework your trigger to ensure that the game flows in the proper direction. If your plan kinda fails, I recommend the following: treat the "before messup" portion of the game as a learning experience for reworking the trigger. treat the "after messup" portion of the game as a learning experience for managing a crisis. i always have some vague "backup" plan that I practice in those situations.
For example: In ZvP, suppose I have a style that involves making a big lurker/ling/hydra army and controlling the center of the map. Theoretically, I desire to keep the protoss from ever getting too close to my expansions via ground. Occasionally, protoss will walk over my center army and crush me immediately. Obviously, I rework the build. Suppose though, that he only barely kills off my main army. At this point, I can no longer do my "big lurker/ling/hydra control middle" army, so I turtle hard w/ lurkers+sunkens and become that annoying zerg that drops all over the place until he has 50 billion ultras. In this instance, i use the early game to help me analyze my original theory of play, whereas i use the lategame to help me practice some brutal tactics and high intensity in game decision making.
I hope that sorta answers what you were going for
Alright so If that scenario happened and followed up with c) where my push got pretty raped, then I would be better off making one of those large changes in your plan, like going from 125 supply hive to 90 supply hive? Maybe instead of pushing out to his base next time I'll just secure my 3rd. I guess when this happens your triggers become much more vague and I would just have to do my best to harass and catch up without a guideline to do it.
Although if b) happened and I didn't get the desired result but it was wasn't as bad as it could have been then I would best be off just tweaking my build, (like when he gets his 3rd extra early like he might have done in that game after watching the replay) where I go for a quicker 4/5 fact push instead?
You did get my question right though, thanks.
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On January 20 2009 14:02 anotak wrote:
Triggers and non-triggers backfiring:
Upmagic vs. By.Hero on destination -- upmagic hides his starting barracks in the back of his main. By.Hero doesn't see it and thinks proxy barracks. he loses the entire game based on this choice.
Upmagic vs. some toss on hitchhiker -- upmagic builds 2rax at start. toss scouts. upmagic kills probe. upmagic lifts rax and then builds a CC and FEs for free while the toss builds cannons and blocks his ramp with zealots and dragoons and doesn't figure it out until it's too late.
double edit: talking about it backfiring isn't meant as a criticism, this is a wonderful post Day i love it seriously thanks dude
oh i totally didn't take it as criticism! i think its an excellent illustration of how deep a game starcraft is (and how cool nontriggers are ;P)
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Thanks so much Day, you rule!
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this was absolutely awesome
thanks a lot :D
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OH also
an EXCELLENT example of the "imaginary player" in action is a simple 9pool speedling vs protoss fast expand.
the protoss has a VERY long time with virtually NO knowledge, and hence he must account for a huge number of imaginary opponents. consequently, the info-starved protoss MUST make extra cannons/units in order to hold off potential attacks (ling bust, hydra bust, muta rush, fast lurker drop) that may come while still holding off more standard transitions (mass midgame hydra, standard lurker/ling tech play etc etc etc)
yarr!
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86324
On January 20 2009 14:43 PvPTZ wrote:Jesus... sombody give this guy a damned medal cuz he helped me out twice now http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86369after listening to that i decided this thread is crap and i can do it all on my own and would be better on my own anyways lol  ty day[9]
you just helped me in so many ways that i can barely just now begin to understand.
edit: lol i liked the ending where you said something like,
"being accused of being a maphacker becuase your so dead on with timings" is so enjoyable lol thats funny tehee i hope i get that good.
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Thank you SO MUCH day.
Seriously this is a VERY helpful way of looking at things. Not only how to develop timings and such, but also the imaginary player part was very interesting, although the base concept is albeit very simple.
It seems so simple but I never did it before. Now I'll start thinking "okay exactly what strategies could he be doing right now and what are their timings" and learning from the replays about those timings
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I vote for Day[9] taking over, bringing back and reinventing the TL Podcast
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Dayamn. SOOOO good Day[9]
some POWERFUL stuff!
: map hacker!
: >:D hehe, you just imaginery!
: wtf??
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Before I say anything else, I want to let you know that finishing your cast with, "Cheers," even though you aren't of British accent was awesome. I say, "Cheers," often. ;p
In the past I've found that "General" advice isn't very helpful to me. Most of it comes as simple concepts that are found in playing the game for even a little amount of time and serve only as an introduction to players who would rather read/listen about the game than play it. However, this recording blew me away. Put simply, this recording was a conclusion that, while seemingly obvious after the fact, isn't clear to players trying desperately to improve. Many players, as you said and myself included, cling to a progamer's build without analyzing the deeper aspects of the play. Often times coming to rock-paper-scissors conclusions. Throwing away things they feel comfortable with simply because it didn't work in their favorite Zerg versus Terran recent proleague game. THIS is analyzing your game play. Possibly the most important aspect of playing Starcraft. Do it well, and do it right.
Thank you Day[9].
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CA10829 Posts
hehehe sean this sounds very familiar 
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Awesome!
I'll listen right away, btw I love your voice day ^^
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Somehow I have a sad feeling it's much easier to do this vs terran or zerg than vs protoss.
meh, I think I got molested to much by icc protosses.
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Very insightful listen Day. Thanks for your time and effort. I look forward to hearing more from you. Now I need to start studying all my replays to figure out some good triggers.
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Excellent rant Day[9]!
Thank you very much for making this, very interesting stuff there... Keep it up please
Seriously, this answers like 70% of the strat forum threads that have come up lately..
Edit: Zomg, now i have to study more for sc than for my exams!
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EPT
