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On June 25 2024 09:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 00:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 24 2024 22:56 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral's worst winrate year vs Koreans since 2018 is 70.3% (in 2021). For reference people used to win world championships or multiple GSLs with 65%-66%. You have no idea how wrong you are. Serral dominated the 2nd half of 2018 and from 2022 on, but from 2019 to 2021 he had a small dip in form and wasn't really dominating as Rogue, Reynor, Dark, Trap and Maru were all outperforming Serral for significant amounts of time (not all at the same time, but they had all periods where they were inarguably performing better than Serral). Doesn't mean Serral was bad as he probably still was a top 3 player at all times which is impressive enough but I guess that's what he was refering to. I commend you for your memory, but alas none of us is getting any younger - and quantitative facts are stubborn. Serral was #1 in annual vs Kor winrate in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 (tied with Maru more or less that year) and 2023. Only in 2021 was he #3 indeed with 70.3% in matches, third to Dark's 72.7% and Maru's fantastic 77.9%. This meshes pretty well with 'Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years?' in my view. This is not inconsistent with Reynor and Rogue having periods of absolute brilliance, and the prizes to prove it, in 2019-2021 as you mentioned, but still being overall less consistent and dominant than Serral.
I mean it depends on how you define dominance i guess but for me the 2nd half of 2018 was dominance (and somewhat what is Happening currently again) where He basically wins everything He enters. But 2019-2022 wasnt dominance to me.
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On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat?
Are the NBA teams in your example disbanded, and does the production line of new stars from collegiate basketball grind to a halt? That would be roughly equivalent to what happened in SC2 prior to Serral coming to prominence.
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Northern Ireland22495 Posts
On June 25 2024 19:21 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 09:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 25 2024 00:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 24 2024 22:56 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral's worst winrate year vs Koreans since 2018 is 70.3% (in 2021). For reference people used to win world championships or multiple GSLs with 65%-66%. You have no idea how wrong you are. Serral dominated the 2nd half of 2018 and from 2022 on, but from 2019 to 2021 he had a small dip in form and wasn't really dominating as Rogue, Reynor, Dark, Trap and Maru were all outperforming Serral for significant amounts of time (not all at the same time, but they had all periods where they were inarguably performing better than Serral). Doesn't mean Serral was bad as he probably still was a top 3 player at all times which is impressive enough but I guess that's what he was refering to. I commend you for your memory, but alas none of us is getting any younger - and quantitative facts are stubborn. Serral was #1 in annual vs Kor winrate in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 (tied with Maru more or less that year) and 2023. Only in 2021 was he #3 indeed with 70.3% in matches, third to Dark's 72.7% and Maru's fantastic 77.9%. This meshes pretty well with 'Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years?' in my view. This is not inconsistent with Reynor and Rogue having periods of absolute brilliance, and the prizes to prove it, in 2019-2021 as you mentioned, but still being overall less consistent and dominant than Serral. I mean it depends on how you define dominance i guess but for me the 2nd half of 2018 was dominance (and somewhat what is Happening currently again) where He basically wins everything He enters. But 2019-2022 wasnt dominance to me.
It does somewhat depend on the activity too.
No golfer ever really has had long stretches where they literally win every event, so what constitutes dominance there isn’t quite set at that high mark. Whereas some squash GOAT candidate won something like 350 matches in a row
I think with Serral we can take individual years as perhaps below the dominance threshold, but as a span of 7 years it’s pretty ridiculous by SC2’s general standards
When’s the last time he didn’t make a Ro8? I actually don’t know and would be interested! I don’t think that points to dominance necessarily, but equally it’s rather impressive
Different eras of course, but at various points in SC2’s history it just didn’t look possible to be quite that relentlessly consistent over such long stretches of time
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On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently.
Sounds like Maru vs. Serral at Katowice.
Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit.
Rogue won 3 tournaments in a row and there was a 4th in close proximity. Reynor won 4 tournaments in a 3 month span. Dark won 2 tournaments in a row, a Blizzcon and a supertournament.
On June 25 2024 03:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. As I’ve said before, I think people are sleeping on quite how far Serral is currently ahead of his fellow Zergs Where previously there was a clear ‘big 4’ of Zerg, not unlike the tennis equivalent where it’s likely one of them is winning a big prize, who it is will depend on form and fine margins come tournament day. Now it’s more akin to the period a bit before/after they were all peaking, where Federer/Djokovic respectively were just the guy. PvZ is a bit less rough than some of those periods too, patches helped, herO’s innovations too. If herO’s involved, I give him a roughly 50% shot at worst of beating any Zerg on the planet in recent times, unless that Zerg happens to be Serral in which case he’s a big underdog for me. And I think overall other Toss have generally put in some more competitive performances in PvZ for a while now. Which I think is quite a contrast from other periods and metas where I think most would outright have favoured any of that Zerg ‘big 4’ in a ZvP against anyone really. Dark being older/a father, Rogue going to military and Reynor being in a slump play their parts too of course. But regardless of underlying factors it’s only really been Serral who’s kept up a vP and vT that’s consistently the best around, or very close
Since 2017 herO is the only Protoss to win a GSL tournament or greater, that's a 7 year span wherein Dark, SoO, Rogue, Solar, Reynor and Serral have all won at least 1 Blizzcon, Katowice or GSL.
Edit: Even Scarlett won Pyongchang.
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United States1750 Posts
On June 25 2024 19:50 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Sounds like Maru vs. Serral at Katowice. Show nested quote +
Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit.
Rogue won 3 tournaments in a row and there was a 4th in close proximity. Reynor won 4 tournaments in a 3 month span. Dark won 2 tournaments in a row, a Blizzcon and a supertournament. Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 03:29 WombaT wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. As I’ve said before, I think people are sleeping on quite how far Serral is currently ahead of his fellow Zergs Where previously there was a clear ‘big 4’ of Zerg, not unlike the tennis equivalent where it’s likely one of them is winning a big prize, who it is will depend on form and fine margins come tournament day. Now it’s more akin to the period a bit before/after they were all peaking, where Federer/Djokovic respectively were just the guy. PvZ is a bit less rough than some of those periods too, patches helped, herO’s innovations too. If herO’s involved, I give him a roughly 50% shot at worst of beating any Zerg on the planet in recent times, unless that Zerg happens to be Serral in which case he’s a big underdog for me. And I think overall other Toss have generally put in some more competitive performances in PvZ for a while now. Which I think is quite a contrast from other periods and metas where I think most would outright have favoured any of that Zerg ‘big 4’ in a ZvP against anyone really. Dark being older/a father, Rogue going to military and Reynor being in a slump play their parts too of course. But regardless of underlying factors it’s only really been Serral who’s kept up a vP and vT that’s consistently the best around, or very close Since 2017 herO is the only Protoss to win a GSL tournament or greater, that's a 7 year span whereas Dark, SoO, Rogue, Solar, Reynor and Serral have all won at least 1 Blizzcon, Katowice or GSL. Edit: Even Scarlett won Pyongchang.
Scarlett didn't win Pyeonchang. The ling elevator did.
More importantly, Stats won Code S and SSL in 2017 so....................
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On June 25 2024 20:16 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 19:50 ejozl wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Sounds like Maru vs. Serral at Katowice.
Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit.
Rogue won 3 tournaments in a row and there was a 4th in close proximity. Reynor won 4 tournaments in a 3 month span. Dark won 2 tournaments in a row, a Blizzcon and a supertournament. On June 25 2024 03:29 WombaT wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. As I’ve said before, I think people are sleeping on quite how far Serral is currently ahead of his fellow Zergs Where previously there was a clear ‘big 4’ of Zerg, not unlike the tennis equivalent where it’s likely one of them is winning a big prize, who it is will depend on form and fine margins come tournament day. Now it’s more akin to the period a bit before/after they were all peaking, where Federer/Djokovic respectively were just the guy. PvZ is a bit less rough than some of those periods too, patches helped, herO’s innovations too. If herO’s involved, I give him a roughly 50% shot at worst of beating any Zerg on the planet in recent times, unless that Zerg happens to be Serral in which case he’s a big underdog for me. And I think overall other Toss have generally put in some more competitive performances in PvZ for a while now. Which I think is quite a contrast from other periods and metas where I think most would outright have favoured any of that Zerg ‘big 4’ in a ZvP against anyone really. Dark being older/a father, Rogue going to military and Reynor being in a slump play their parts too of course. But regardless of underlying factors it’s only really been Serral who’s kept up a vP and vT that’s consistently the best around, or very close Since 2017 herO is the only Protoss to win a GSL tournament or greater, that's a 7 year span whereas Dark, SoO, Rogue, Solar, Reynor and Serral have all won at least 1 Blizzcon, Katowice or GSL. Edit: Even Scarlett won Pyongchang. Scarlett didn't win Pyeonchang. The ling elevator did. More importantly, Stats won Code S and SSL in 2017 so....................
I would give him the lamguage barrier doubt and say He meant since after 2017 (idk If that Statement is true then as Trap won some stuff).
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On June 25 2024 20:50 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 20:16 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 19:50 ejozl wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Sounds like Maru vs. Serral at Katowice.
Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit.
Rogue won 3 tournaments in a row and there was a 4th in close proximity. Reynor won 4 tournaments in a 3 month span. Dark won 2 tournaments in a row, a Blizzcon and a supertournament. On June 25 2024 03:29 WombaT wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. As I’ve said before, I think people are sleeping on quite how far Serral is currently ahead of his fellow Zergs Where previously there was a clear ‘big 4’ of Zerg, not unlike the tennis equivalent where it’s likely one of them is winning a big prize, who it is will depend on form and fine margins come tournament day. Now it’s more akin to the period a bit before/after they were all peaking, where Federer/Djokovic respectively were just the guy. PvZ is a bit less rough than some of those periods too, patches helped, herO’s innovations too. If herO’s involved, I give him a roughly 50% shot at worst of beating any Zerg on the planet in recent times, unless that Zerg happens to be Serral in which case he’s a big underdog for me. And I think overall other Toss have generally put in some more competitive performances in PvZ for a while now. Which I think is quite a contrast from other periods and metas where I think most would outright have favoured any of that Zerg ‘big 4’ in a ZvP against anyone really. Dark being older/a father, Rogue going to military and Reynor being in a slump play their parts too of course. But regardless of underlying factors it’s only really been Serral who’s kept up a vP and vT that’s consistently the best around, or very close Since 2017 herO is the only Protoss to win a GSL tournament or greater, that's a 7 year span whereas Dark, SoO, Rogue, Solar, Reynor and Serral have all won at least 1 Blizzcon, Katowice or GSL. Edit: Even Scarlett won Pyongchang. Scarlett didn't win Pyeonchang. The ling elevator did. More importantly, Stats won Code S and SSL in 2017 so.................... I would give him the lamguage barrier doubt and say He meant since after 2017 (idk If that Statement is true then as Trap won some stuff).
I think that Trap "only" won Super Tournaments. I suppose it would depend whether or not you consider those to be "GSL tournament or greater".
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France12738 Posts
On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite.
Serral highly benefits from having to play fewer series though, since DH:EU is so weak / has an easy format for top players, he doesn't have to crawl through open brackets and stuff like other KR players most of the times.
It doesn't detract from the fact that he is an exceptionally strong player, but I don't think his sheer winrate vs KR opponents is the most impressive thing about Serral.
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On June 25 2024 20:50 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 20:16 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 19:50 ejozl wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Sounds like Maru vs. Serral at Katowice.
Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit.
Rogue won 3 tournaments in a row and there was a 4th in close proximity. Reynor won 4 tournaments in a 3 month span. Dark won 2 tournaments in a row, a Blizzcon and a supertournament. On June 25 2024 03:29 WombaT wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. As I’ve said before, I think people are sleeping on quite how far Serral is currently ahead of his fellow Zergs Where previously there was a clear ‘big 4’ of Zerg, not unlike the tennis equivalent where it’s likely one of them is winning a big prize, who it is will depend on form and fine margins come tournament day. Now it’s more akin to the period a bit before/after they were all peaking, where Federer/Djokovic respectively were just the guy. PvZ is a bit less rough than some of those periods too, patches helped, herO’s innovations too. If herO’s involved, I give him a roughly 50% shot at worst of beating any Zerg on the planet in recent times, unless that Zerg happens to be Serral in which case he’s a big underdog for me. And I think overall other Toss have generally put in some more competitive performances in PvZ for a while now. Which I think is quite a contrast from other periods and metas where I think most would outright have favoured any of that Zerg ‘big 4’ in a ZvP against anyone really. Dark being older/a father, Rogue going to military and Reynor being in a slump play their parts too of course. But regardless of underlying factors it’s only really been Serral who’s kept up a vP and vT that’s consistently the best around, or very close Since 2017 herO is the only Protoss to win a GSL tournament or greater, that's a 7 year span whereas Dark, SoO, Rogue, Solar, Reynor and Serral have all won at least 1 Blizzcon, Katowice or GSL. Edit: Even Scarlett won Pyongchang. Scarlett didn't win Pyeonchang. The ling elevator did. More importantly, Stats won Code S and SSL in 2017 so.................... I would give him the lamguage barrier doubt and say He meant since after 2017 (idk If that Statement is true then as Trap won some stuff).
Yes, since after the Stats win in 2017, in what was the before-time, only herO has won what is equivalent to a GSL or higher. Trap won multiple Supertournaments, which is obviously not the same as a GSL, else Serral would've already won 2x GSLs and ppl wouldn't be arguing.
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On June 25 2024 21:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite. Serral highly benefits from having to play fewer series though, since DH:EU is so weak / has an easy format for top players, he doesn't have to crawl through open brackets and stuff like other KR players most of the times. It doesn't detract from the fact that he is an exceptionally strong player, but I don't think his sheer winrate vs KR opponents is the most impressive thing about Serral.
I think this works the other way if anything. As Wombat said, when he does play Koreans, he tends to only be playing the best ones or the ones best performing at that time. Thus, you would think his vs KR winrate would be lower, if anything.
To be fair, I don't think there's many *weak* Koreans anymore who are noticably weaker than others, Nightmare being an example of that at least prior to his recent upsurge. There's extremely strong Koreans (Dark/Rogue/Maru/Stats/Trap, non-exhaustive list) and then I feel like by and large most other Koreans are at a vaguely similar level, depending on their individual lows and highs.
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On June 25 2024 15:37 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 13:25 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. I didn't say it's all that matters. But it's pretty relevant "data". One could strongly argue it's the most conclusive data in the debate because how one sided it is. Buster Douglas has a winning record against Mike Tyson. I guess Buster Douglas is the better boxer.
So in this analogy you have Serral being Buster Douglas? Yeah, that's close to being the same thing we're talking about here. Great logic.
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On June 25 2024 09:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 00:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 24 2024 22:56 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral's worst winrate year vs Koreans since 2018 is 70.3% (in 2021). For reference people used to win world championships or multiple GSLs with 65%-66%. You have no idea how wrong you are. Serral dominated the 2nd half of 2018 and from 2022 on, but from 2019 to 2021 he had a small dip in form and wasn't really dominating as Rogue, Reynor, Dark, Trap and Maru were all outperforming Serral for significant amounts of time (not all at the same time, but they had all periods where they were inarguably performing better than Serral). Doesn't mean Serral was bad as he probably still was a top 3 player at all times which is impressive enough but I guess that's what he was refering to. I commend you for your memory, but alas none of us is getting any younger - and quantitative facts are stubborn. Serral was #1 in annual vs Kor winrate in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 (tied with Maru more or less that year) and 2023. Only in 2021 was he #3 indeed with 70.3% in matches, third to Dark's 72.7% and Maru's fantastic 77.9%. This meshes pretty well with 'Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years?' in my view. This is not inconsistent with Reynor and Rogue having periods of absolute brilliance, and the prizes to prove it, in 2019-2021 as you mentioned, but still being overall less consistent and dominant than Serral.
Maru and Dark play weaker Korean opponents in general, Aligulac is a better metric, and Serral has been #1 consistently only briefly dropping to #2 at times.
Also comparing the #1 T/Z/P to the #2 T/Z/P to establish how OP a race is, is very very silly, TY was basically Maru's peer until he quit, you probably want to go for something like the median top10 rating for that race.
People will focus on whatever noise they like to satisfy their raging bias.
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[QUOTE]On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
My main point was this: You don’t get to sluff off Hero’s opinion as just his feelings and say your’s is objective as possible because it is data driven as if you’ve crunched all the statistics into a calculator and proved Maru is number one. Everyone is debating who is the GOAT. Not this guy should be at #7 vs that guy at #5. It’s Maru vs Serral. Either you’re the GOAT or you’re not. If your exercise was truly data driven it would have looked more like the scientific method and a retrospective study and focused on eliminating bias that can sway results. In a retrospective study you are trying to compare two things as similar as possible while eliminating subjective variables that can introduce bias while measuring outcomes. Examples of shared measurable outcomes would be things like head to head record, record against common opponents, records in the same time periods, outcomes of tournaments that they both were playing in. Stuff like that. Your argument boils down to Maru’s accomplishments are superior because some of his achievements happened at certain times that you deem more significant and you consider certain tournaments more prestigious than others. It’s fine to take this path. But it’s just an opinion, just like Hero’s. Not claiming to be a statistician, but this is entry level university science and statistics. It’s been a long time since I was there so someone can probably explain it better. But what you did was not what you think you did.
And unfortunately for you, you don’t get to decide who’s opinion counts or not in a debate like this.
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On June 25 2024 09:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 00:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 24 2024 22:56 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral's worst winrate year vs Koreans since 2018 is 70.3% (in 2021). For reference people used to win world championships or multiple GSLs with 65%-66%. You have no idea how wrong you are. Serral dominated the 2nd half of 2018 and from 2022 on, but from 2019 to 2021 he had a small dip in form and wasn't really dominating as Rogue, Reynor, Dark, Trap and Maru were all outperforming Serral for significant amounts of time (not all at the same time, but they had all periods where they were inarguably performing better than Serral). Doesn't mean Serral was bad as he probably still was a top 3 player at all times which is impressive enough but I guess that's what he was refering to. I commend you for your memory, but alas none of us is getting any younger - and quantitative facts are stubborn. Serral was #1 in annual vs Kor winrate in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 (tied with Maru more or less that year) and 2023. Only in 2021 was he #3 indeed with 70.3% in matches, third to Dark's 72.7% and Maru's fantastic 77.9%. This meshes pretty well with 'Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years?' in my view. This is not inconsistent with Reynor and Rogue having periods of absolute brilliance, and the prizes to prove it, in 2019-2021 as you mentioned, but still being overall less consistent and dominant than Serral.
Well, I disagree with vs kor winrate being the only relevant metric, especially considering the two players Serral struggled the most with are foreigners - but I coincede we're splitting hairs at this point. People also say Mvp dominated WoL without meaning he dominated every single year
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On June 25 2024 18:02 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 16:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 15:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I know that in that statement you also said it's worth about the same as an average ESL/Blizzard WC, which I highly disagree, but the large majority would agree that in a "data-driven approach", WCS and Katowice (especially when officially a WC that year) are worth more than a KIL or a WESG. Of which Maru is sorely lacking. The only thing that makes a WC harder to win than Code S is if a superior player (who doesn't compete in KR) is added to the player pool (aka Serral post 2017). I had to make a fair number of generalities in the intro (and during player entries) to avoid writing thousands of words about the minute differences between tournaments, despite the fact that I had to account for all of them during research. I want to note that I'm not arguing in favor or Serral or Maru for GOAT, I'm simply defending the work I put in. I'm extremely confident that my evaluation process was far more rigorous than that utilized by others. A forum poster or someone putting out a 5-10 minute video doesn't have to worry about dealing with the most scrupulous and demanding editor in the history of StarCraft II (Wax never gets the credit he deserves) and I can 100% assure you that if I didn't put in the required amount of work that those articles would never have been posted. I'm fine with people thinking I am incorrect, but my standard when it comes to determining whether or not a counter argument is viable is extremely high. Not everyone would believe that harder automatically = more prestigious or important, even if there's a relationship between the two. Case in point, I would hope everyone would believe that someone who won nine world championships would pretty much automatically be the GOAT. Conversely, it's not at all clear Maru is.
To be fair to Mizen, GSL was the most prestigious tournament for the first few years of sc2 existence. However that is no longer the case for close to almost a decade now. Also Maru only started to win the GSL when it lost its meaning already. I know people will dispute this point to boost Maru but that’s the truth. Maru can barely win anything outside of Korea.
Being a big fish in a small pond does not = goat contender
The only tournaments people care about or the hardest tournaments to win are the ones Serral are attending. Everything else just pretty much or feels like a tier B tournament.
Also I believe most people couldn’t care less what anyone’s result were in the pro league. It’s already proven it was a fix league so any result is automatically voided
I’m sure Mizen did lots of research into his data but stats/data are flawed and bias. It’s like people saying Lebron is a goat contender because of his “stats”, when the general consensus was will and always will be Jordan.
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On June 26 2024 02:58 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 18:02 Pandain wrote:On June 25 2024 16:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 15:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I know that in that statement you also said it's worth about the same as an average ESL/Blizzard WC, which I highly disagree, but the large majority would agree that in a "data-driven approach", WCS and Katowice (especially when officially a WC that year) are worth more than a KIL or a WESG. Of which Maru is sorely lacking. The only thing that makes a WC harder to win than Code S is if a superior player (who doesn't compete in KR) is added to the player pool (aka Serral post 2017). I had to make a fair number of generalities in the intro (and during player entries) to avoid writing thousands of words about the minute differences between tournaments, despite the fact that I had to account for all of them during research. I want to note that I'm not arguing in favor or Serral or Maru for GOAT, I'm simply defending the work I put in. I'm extremely confident that my evaluation process was far more rigorous than that utilized by others. A forum poster or someone putting out a 5-10 minute video doesn't have to worry about dealing with the most scrupulous and demanding editor in the history of StarCraft II (Wax never gets the credit he deserves) and I can 100% assure you that if I didn't put in the required amount of work that those articles would never have been posted. I'm fine with people thinking I am incorrect, but my standard when it comes to determining whether or not a counter argument is viable is extremely high. Not everyone would believe that harder automatically = more prestigious or important, even if there's a relationship between the two. Case in point, I would hope everyone would believe that someone who won nine world championships would pretty much automatically be the GOAT. Conversely, it's not at all clear Maru is. To be fair to Mizen, GSL was the most prestigious tournament for the first few years of sc2 existence. However that is no longer the case for close to almost a decade now. Also Maru only started to win the GSL when it lost its meaning already. I know people will dispute this point to boost Maru but that’s the truth. Maru can barely win anything outside of Korea. Being a big fish in a small pond does not = goat contender The only tournaments people care about or the hardest tournaments to win are the ones Serral are attending. Everything else just pretty much or feels like a tier B tournament. Also I believe most people couldn’t care less what anyone’s result were in the pro league. It’s already proven it was a fix league so any result is automatically voided I’m sure Mizen did lots of research into his data but stats/data are flawed and bias. It’s like people saying Lebron is a goat contender because of his “stats”, when the general consensus was will and always will be Jordan.
"Close to a decade" fucking what.
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On June 26 2024 02:58 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 18:02 Pandain wrote:On June 25 2024 16:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 15:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I know that in that statement you also said it's worth about the same as an average ESL/Blizzard WC, which I highly disagree, but the large majority would agree that in a "data-driven approach", WCS and Katowice (especially when officially a WC that year) are worth more than a KIL or a WESG. Of which Maru is sorely lacking. The only thing that makes a WC harder to win than Code S is if a superior player (who doesn't compete in KR) is added to the player pool (aka Serral post 2017). I had to make a fair number of generalities in the intro (and during player entries) to avoid writing thousands of words about the minute differences between tournaments, despite the fact that I had to account for all of them during research. I want to note that I'm not arguing in favor or Serral or Maru for GOAT, I'm simply defending the work I put in. I'm extremely confident that my evaluation process was far more rigorous than that utilized by others. A forum poster or someone putting out a 5-10 minute video doesn't have to worry about dealing with the most scrupulous and demanding editor in the history of StarCraft II (Wax never gets the credit he deserves) and I can 100% assure you that if I didn't put in the required amount of work that those articles would never have been posted. I'm fine with people thinking I am incorrect, but my standard when it comes to determining whether or not a counter argument is viable is extremely high. Not everyone would believe that harder automatically = more prestigious or important, even if there's a relationship between the two. Case in point, I would hope everyone would believe that someone who won nine world championships would pretty much automatically be the GOAT. Conversely, it's not at all clear Maru is. To be fair to Mizen, GSL was the most prestigious tournament for the first few years of sc2 existence. However that is no longer the case for close to almost a decade now. Also Maru only started to win the GSL when it lost its meaning already. I know people will dispute this point to boost Maru but that’s the truth. Maru can barely win anything outside of Korea. Being a big fish in a small pond does not = goat contender The only tournaments people care about or the hardest tournaments to win are the ones Serral are attending. Everything else just pretty much or feels like a tier B tournament. Also I believe most people couldn’t care less what anyone’s result were in the pro league. It’s already proven it was a fix league so any result is automatically voided I’m sure Mizen did lots of research into his data but stats/data are flawed and bias. It’s like people saying Lebron is a goat contender because of his “stats”, when the general consensus was will and always will be Jordan.
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
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On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize.
It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading.
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[QUOTE]On June 26 2024 02:10 Cactus66 wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
My main point was this: You don’t get to sluff off Hero’s opinion as just his feelings and say your’s is objective as possible because it is data driven as if you’ve crunched all the statistics into a calculator and proved Maru is number one. Everyone is debating who is the GOAT. Not this guy should be at #7 vs that guy at #5. It’s Maru vs Serral. Either you’re the GOAT or you’re not. If your exercise was truly data driven it would have looked more like the scientific method and a retrospective study and focused on eliminating bias that can sway results. In a retrospective study you are trying to compare two things as similar as possible while eliminating subjective variables that can introduce bias while measuring outcomes. Examples of shared measurable outcomes would be things like head to head record, record against common opponents, records in the same time periods, outcomes of tournaments that they both were playing in. Stuff like that. Your argument boils down to Maru’s accomplishments are superior because some of his achievements happened at certain times that you deem more significant and you consider certain tournaments more prestigious than others. It’s fine to take this path. But it’s just an opinion, just like Hero’s. Not claiming to be a statistician, but this is entry level university science and statistics. It’s been a long time since I was there so someone can probably explain it better. But what you did was not what you think you did.
And unfortunately for you, you don’t get to decide who’s opinion counts or not in a debate like this.
[/QUOTE]
Your university entry level science and stats would also tell you would need to account for all material periods, not just those that benefit the guy you want on top. Serral began winning in 2018 whereas maru was doing that since 2013. If you're trying to figure out who is the best of all time, you have to account for maru's whole trajectory, period.
Pretty sure your premise is wrong fyi. This is not a maru v. serral debate. This is a who among the population is the best of them all. That maru and serral are the last two standing is immaterial for the premise. You would account for every result each competing player individually had, then start assigning weights, and only at the end would you compare the players against each other. Your method flips the script by doing a maru v. serral debate off the top. Regardless of the method you still need to account for everyone's results, but your premise opens you up (as it happened here) to start excluding results that should not be excluded.
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On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation.
You might try using one in your next GOAT list 
Edited to add: Holy shit just caught up on reading and you're actually trying to count WESG 2017 for Maru as almost equivalent to a GSL or Kato/Blizz tier event. You do realize it only had 3 koreans in it right? That Maru only played foreigners and Dark? No one counts that for a reason Miz, and it really shows your bias that you're trying to give it clout for, what? Its prize pool? Haven't you been saying for the last 6 months that prizepools aren't what matters? Guess they only 'count' when you want them to. So much for data driven.
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EPT
