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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg
I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking.
Quoted for posteriority.
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But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent?
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United States4883 Posts
Okay. Here we go.
I'm going to be posting a wall of text, so forewarning. I've spent a good portion of the last 72 hours reading accounts of sexual harassment across the board, discussing these topics with other people, and throwing my solidarity behind other women. I am biased. I'm going to be very straightforward and probably quite incendiary here because my strong feelings for these scenarios bars me from calling out assholes and gaslighting dipshits in a level-headed and reasonable manner.
On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea.
On June 24 2020 09:07 Pangpootata wrote:
Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion.
On June 24 2020 08:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt.
On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post.
On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote:
No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof.
If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that.
On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established.
This shit is absolutely DISGUSTING. If you are on the sidelines yelling "but what about presumption of innocence??", especially AT the victims, you need to fuck the fuck off and stay out of the discussion entirely. The whole idea that women who put their reputation and livelihood on the line need to show empiric proof of how they were treated in a clearly unequal relationship is an incredibly privileged and ignorant mindset. You are awfully quick to jump on protecting the feelings of the accused while immediately ignoring the humanity of the accuser, and that makes you just as culpable for the silent abuse of women as the perpetrators themselves. Opposing women speaking their truths is the same as shaming them into silence and perpetuating an atmosphere of victim blaming.
This is not even getting into the fact that whatever happened, the feelings of the victim are valid and real, and that proving rape or sexual misconduct is a fairly ambiguous and often impossible task. Often, the official channels are ineffective and/or reinforce the idea that women should remain silent and be ignored, and sometimes the official channels don't exist at all. Imagine reporting sexual harassment to someone who believes you're just flirting badly.
On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:
HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever.
Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel.
On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then?
On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright.
@juvenal What's it like to be a complete piece of garbage? I see you there pretending to play devil's advocate but actually just straight up spreading your shit misogynistic mentality.
You start by saying that no one should speak up and then after being bombarded with (logical and level-headed) pushback, you try to distract with forcing people to prove obscure numbers and invent strawman arguments before defaulting to the old tactic of pretending that you never said that people shouldn't share and shifting the blame back onto your debate opponents for not understanding what you said. I've seen these tricks used time and time again; it's an abusive behavior and commonly manifests itself in shitposter trolls, racists, and misogynists. Women deserve to be heard. Women deserve to name names. Proof is not a requirement for sharing your perspective. Fuck off.
On June 24 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:29 Heartland wrote:On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. What you're suggesting has meant that people haven't spoken out and the problems have persisted. The current option is treated as a public lynch though. People do search other people before employment and any public stain is a big issue. There has to be channels to do this and social media isn't the right place. Which is the prime issue. Currently Rapid is in serious shit business wise.
On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved.
@deacon.frost While a bit less of a shitlord, you should be ashamed to be protecting the accused. As I said earlier, opposing the voice of women is the same as victimizing them the same way the perpetrator did. If you do not stand up to misogyny and misconduct, you are allowing it and complicit to the crime. It shouldn't matter what the exact number of people who are falsely accused is; the fact that there are any victims at all, much less a majority, should be reason enough for you to take these stories VERY seriously and throw solidarity and love behind them rather than brush them under the rug and criticize them as being "dangerous".
No one should be made to feel ashamed of their body or their relationships with other people.
It should break your fucking heart that the commonality between every one of these stories is not the conduct but the way it made these women ashamed in some way and threw blame on them.
On June 24 2020 19:08 fededevi wrote:
While I completely support speaking up by anyone and I seriously doubt any of the shared stories are completely made up they have to be taken as what they are. Stories written by someone on the internet.
Unless you have serious, serious proof you should not make the names of the involved people public.. I mean you can.. but I think it is a very bad thing to do. And make it feels more like revenge than justice.
If there is a crime it should be prosecuted in the court.
If you know that someone is an asshole by your own experience, do your choice, exclude him/her from your life or don't if you choose so.
If you think the legal system does not work properly or does not cover certain behaviors properly then you should ask/discuss/protest do whatever to change that.
This is not a problem without solution, the solution is to provide people with channels to denounce improper behavior, change the legal system to make it easier for victims to denounce those behaviors or make them illegal or punishable.
The solution is not to use twitter as a public court.
The solution is not to drop the "presumption of innocence" principle.
At least that is what I think.
Also I want to add that these stories, even anonymous ones, have a lot of intrinsic value and we should use them to correct and adjust our behaviors rather than use them to judge and punish the involved people, especially when little to no evidence is provided.
Hell! This should be the final objective, to reduce this kind of behavior, not to have retribution.
Sorry for my english.
I feel less strongly about this comment, but I really want to address the faux concept of "speak your truth, but don't name names". You need to understand that abusive behavior and sexual misconduct does more than just offend people. In the cases of these women, it robs them of their power and their agency. They are completely at the mercy of their oppressor for as long as they remain silent and suffering, and the only way to regain their agency and reclaim their power is by speaking out against the terrible acts committed against them and naming those responsible for it, especially if they are in a position of public influence and power. It is not a retribution so much as a protection for others who can and will fall victim to the same sort of abuse if nothing is ever done to bring these situations to light.
Women shouldn't need to be afraid to tell a man to stop kissing them for fear that their career or their life might be ruined. Women shouldn't need to fear for their life when someone offers to take them home and doesn't stop following them when turned down. We've normalized these behaviors and then blamed women for bravely speaking up after they've spent months or years trying to untangle the trauma of these events, and it needs to stop. It needs to fucking stop.
EDIT: Adding eon to the wall of shame, but he is redeemed
On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd.
On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent?
On June 24 2020 22:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now.
On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong.
EDIT: Adding Spike to the wall of shame.
On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. How dare you suggest that women need to be educated how to be properly sexual abused?
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Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now.
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On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:
I am biased
this is where your rant should've stopped. If it were up to people like you, HenryG would probably be in jail by now. For something he didn't do.
On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:
You start by saying that no one should speak up
I said 2 or 3 times: let them speak up, but don't accuse people without any evidence. You even quoted one such post. Talk about fighting strawmen.
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Hmms no one is questioning psiPengWin's story, which has no "evidence" and implicates a small number of people. I wonder why that is :Thinking:.
Better get on that folks, accuse him of being an attention seeker, toodle pip.
Flippancy aside, I'm really fucking glad people are coming forward. To others: be reasonable, justifying why a person couldn't have done this because he is a really great guy, when you are a dude doesn't help your case.
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[LEGALITY]The Presumption of Innocence
The presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established.
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I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
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On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent?
Yes I've read the multiple allegations made by multiple women over the years, against Rapid. They corroborate his inappropriate behavior. As for your insistence on specifically needing to see text, or about the other minor topics we've covered (e.g., attention-seeking behavior), I think EsportsJohn's comment answers them very well. There are ever-shifting goalposts when it comes to burden of proof, people will continue to make excuses if they really want to, and the people coming forward are merely hoping that they themselves don't get pitchforked for speaking out.
On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established.
..."In a criminal trial."
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On June 24 2020 22:10 juvenal wrote:this is where your rant should've stopped. If it were up to people like you, HenryG would probably be in jail by now. For something he didn't do. Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:
You start by saying that no one should speak up
I said 2 or 3 times: let them speak up, but don't accuse people without any evidence. You even quoted one such post. Talk about fighting strawmen.
How do you speak up without accusing someone? Those are literally the same thing, aren't they? As far as assessing what is or isn't evidence, that's completely subjective and up to the listener, unfortunately. Someone can recount a story that happened live, and the listener could insist that they can't believe it unless it's in writing. Someone can post written conversations, and the listener could insist that it's a fake conversation. We could play this game all day.
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on a random note it's kind of funny that a lot of the people who are skeptical about the accusations are SC2 Korean elitists or are well known for being bm.
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On June 24 2020 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? Yes I've read the multiple allegations made by multiple women over the years, against Rapid. They corroborate his inappropriate behavior. As for your insistence on specifically needing to see text, or about the other minor topics we've covered (e.g., attention-seeking behavior), I think EsportsJohn's comment answers them very well. There are ever-shifting goalposts when it comes to burden of proof, people will continue to make excuses if they really want to, and the people coming forward are merely hoping that they themselves don't get pitchforked for speaking out. Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. ..."In a criminal trial."
Sorry my ignorance but u are saying over th years? I didnt know this.do u mind giving some links? I HONESTLY didnt know about it.and i thought it all came with the recent twitch movement.
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So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together.
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On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike.
And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him.
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On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together.
Anyone starting to wonder why offensive sentiments like this are so frequently paired with the ostensibly "sensible" calls for process and concern for the accused?
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On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together.
What do you mean BLM is over? Systemic racism has finally ended? When, 10 seconds ago? Please let the rest of the United States know; we're not aware of this yet.
Also, the fact that you would use the phrase "public execution" is incredibly ironic, given the literal public executions of black lives that most of the country is still outraged over. Awful.
On June 24 2020 22:18 Anc13nt wrote:
on a random note it's kind of funny that a lot of the people who are skeptical about the accusations are SC2 Korean elitists
Eh, I don't know if that's a correlation worth pointing out (or if it's even an actual correlation; I probably lean more towards SC2 Korean-elitism than the foreigner scene, but I'm clearly not dismissing the accusations).
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When something like this comes up, I would think you would immediately and publically fight it to the death IF it is indeed false...
A responce would be nice... Like yesterday...
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On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him.
From what i know Rapid doesnt hold any power in any casting scene.in fact he doesnt get games to cast that often.And we are already comparing him with Harvey Weinstein.
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On June 24 2020 22:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together. What do you mean BLM is over? Systemic racism has finally ended? When, 10 seconds ago? Please let the rest of the United States know; we're not aware of this yet. Also, the fact that you would use the phrase "public execution" is incredibly ironic, given the literal public executions of black lives that most of the country is still outraged over. Awful. Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:18 Anc13nt wrote:
on a random note it's kind of funny that a lot of the people who are skeptical about the accusations are SC2 Korean elitists Eh, I don't know if that's a correlation worth pointing out (or if it's even an actual correlation; I probably lean more towards SC2 Korean-elitism than the foreigner scene, but I'm clearly not dismissing the accusations).
honestly i'd probably consider myself more to the korean elitist side of the spectrum too and I more or less agree with most of your posts on this thread but sometimes I like to indulge in some wild theory crafting.
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On June 24 2020 22:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:
I am biased
this is where your rant should've stopped. If it were up to people like you, HenryG would probably be in jail by now. For something he didn't do. On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:
You start by saying that no one should speak up
I said 2 or 3 times: let them speak up, but don't accuse people without any evidence. You even quoted one such post. Talk about fighting strawmen. How do you speak up without accusing someone? Those are literally the same thing, aren't they? As far as assessing what is or isn't evidence, that's completely subjective and up to the listener, unfortunately. Someone can recount a story that happened live, and the listener could insist that they can't believe it unless it's in writing. Someone can post written conversations, and the listener could insist that it's a fake conversation. We could play this game all day.
huh? If someone showed a screenshot of their whatsapp chat, that's fucking evidence right there. If they're pressed further, they can provide the log files themselves. Very few people at that point would doubt the authenticity of it. There's no game to play, because there are no screenshots, no logs, no nothing. Only place where there were is HenryG's rebuttal, which none of you even commented on. It's like it doesn't exist. Yet he would be absolutely destroyed as an esports personality if he didn't happen to save those logs. He would be besides Rapid right now. How the fuck are you people ignoring that? Her story was pretty convincing before he replied, wasn't it?
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EPT
