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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
Sexual abuse / harassment won't go away because we blindly trust every person who posts something on social media.
Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Making sure they know their rights, know when and how to prosecute offenders is important, because this way the actual abusers face the consequences of their actions, land behind bars or at the very least are prosecuted (and the more cases there are the more attention they will get as part of a systemic issue).
It doesn't mean no other actions should be taken to make people as safe as possible - everywhere, everyone, under all circumstances.
If people in the US are sentenced based on testimony of a single person and nothing else then I'd say maybe it's not the best judiciary system in the world and perhaps needs an overhaul.
And again, for all I know I'm assuming everything people wrote is true. I just don't think taking actions *at this stage* (for example removing RAPID from casting events, which already happened) is the proper and fair way to go.
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On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together.
So the guy comes at you when you are alone and tells you to touch his d**k, makes a comment about your body or touches your ass, tries to kiss you and grope you before dropping you at home... but doesn't go further than that. What are you gonna do? I mean you have no proof, you just can't go to the police...
You report it to the organization, or manager, etc. but he/she maybe excuses him, or tells you he was joking. The guy is known in the scene, and you're not. This is your first gig. If you insist maybe you will be labeled as "hard to work with" and that stuff. What are you gonna do? you have no proofs, so no police...
Then 3 other persons come forward with a similiar story. But hey, no proofs, of course.
Nothing to see there, right?
Of course we shouldn't convict him... but a lot of things makes sense in this RAPiD mess....
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On June 24 2020 22:46 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd be interested to hear from people within the pro gaming scene (Team Liquid the team I'm looking at you) about what experiences they have in gaming.
Who would you report sexual harassment to? Have you known anyone who has reported this stuff within the industry, and how did it turn out? Are there things that should be improved immediately in terms of support? Are there people in the industry that everyone knows are a problem but nothing can be done to remove them (not asking for names but this stuff is a good indicator of how 'healthy' the reporting/support system is)?
For some answer, TLO's experience is right there in the opening post.
Jinro also commented on his tweet if you want more. And Top/Kiwian, who was part of that oGs-Liquid teamhouse apparently talked about it on stream today if you want to look up the VOD.
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On June 24 2020 22:50 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:46 Nebuchad wrote:
Ultimately this is another humanity vs me discussion. Starting to believe a lot of political debates contain that distinction.
It's pretty obvious that victims speaking out is better for humanity in general than a culture of sweeping all of the accusations under the rug to maintain appearances, even if it entails a few false accusations sometimes. Sexual harassment is, to use a technical term, bad.
But in this case if we look at it from the "I" perspective rather than the human perspective, the answer isn't as clear. As a gamer, male, kind of socially awkward, I am much more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than I am to be at the receiving end of it. Both are rarely going to happen, but one is like 2-10% (depending on how much I hate the womenz) and the other is like 0,1%. So because I don't have a lot of empathy, it's much easier for me to put myself in the place of the accuser than in the place of the victim, and I'm much more concerned with the former being treated fairly than the latter. This is the feeling i get from the discussion. Its not misogynistic in intent but it is in its effect.
At some point people lose the benefit of the doubt regarding their lack of intent, I'd argue it takes too long for some.
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On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny.
Think about it this way since you seem to be struggling, lets flip the roles. The way you treated Rapid when you met, is it the exact same as women/men you've been intimate with?
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On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny.
No problem  For better or for worse, I don't have any experiences with Rapid, so perhaps that made it simpler for me to be somewhat objective.
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@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
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It's important to remember that not all of these claims are extremely serious. In some cases the accused is argued to have been overly flirtatious. Actual sexual misconduct is a serious offense.
"Talking dirty" in private isn't really a crime. That's what appears to have happened with RAPiD and Naomi. If it turned out that all the claims were exactly true then it would probably amount to misconduct and not criminality. There are some fine distinctions to be made, and the identity of the accuser would have to be established. The fact that apparently no proof exists (as admitted by the accuser) doesn't help support the claim.
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On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
This isn't even close to the multiple, corroborative allegations against Rapid. This is a really bad strawman.
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On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
I think it would most likely work against you cause you just posted that you're gonna say it
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On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
But you won't say it, will you.
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On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
This is a perfect example of how poorly equipped many people are in terms of making appropriate comparisons. You should be embarrassed that you think those two things are comparable.
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On June 24 2020 22:51 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Sexual abuse / harassment won't go away because we blindly trust every person who posts something on social media. Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Making sure they know their rights, know when and how to prosecute offenders is important, because this way the actual abusers face the consequences of their actions, land behind bars or at the very least are prosecuted (and the more cases there are the more attention they will get as part of a systemic issue). It doesn't mean no other actions should be taken to make people as safe as possible - everywhere, everyone, under all circumstances. If people in the US are sentenced based on testimony of a single person and nothing else then I'd say maybe it's not the best judiciary system in the world and perhaps needs an overhaul.
That statement is REALLY fucked up, dude. Putting the spot on the victim and not the offender...
So I guess when we talk about gun victims, we should educate people on recognizing and avoiding the shootings, right? That's where we should put our efforts. And educating people to recognize drunks driving, so they can avoid them?. Putting the effort on recognizing, avoiding and handling the offender... not in trying to avoid him/her becoming one, or outing them before they repeat the crime or when they do it.
And sexual abuse/harassment won't go away because we are human beings: people with any sort of power (physical, social, etc.) tend to use it to take advantage of others for their own benefit. Not because of fucking social media...
I really hope you are trolling or something, because jesus christ if that's not the case... Get your shit together...
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On June 24 2020 22:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 22:46 Nebuchad wrote:
Ultimately this is another humanity vs me discussion. Starting to believe a lot of political debates contain that distinction.
It's pretty obvious that victims speaking out is better for humanity in general than a culture of sweeping all of the accusations under the rug to maintain appearances, even if it entails a few false accusations sometimes. Sexual harassment is, to use a technical term, bad.
But in this case if we look at it from the "I" perspective rather than the human perspective, the answer isn't as clear. As a gamer, male, kind of socially awkward, I am much more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than I am to be at the receiving end of it. Both are rarely going to happen, but one is like 2-10% (depending on how much I hate the womenz) and the other is like 0,1%. So because I don't have a lot of empathy, it's much easier for me to put myself in the place of the accuser than in the place of the victim, and I'm much more concerned with the former being treated fairly than the latter. This is the feeling i get from the discussion. Its not misogynistic in intent but it is in its effect. At some point people lose the benefit of the doubt regarding their lack of intent, I'd argue it takes too long for some.
Misogyny implies hate. I think much of the pushback against speaking out comes more from fear or self interest or.... just a perspective issue like Nebuchad says.
It took me years and some irl experience (not me, a friend) for me to change my views on this. I'm not yelling at people because I know exactly why they think what they think, and although from our perspective rn it feels disingenuous or even like fake concern, that's not how it felt to me a couple of years ago and I doubt that is how people are thinking about it now.
There's genuine concern here for the victims of false accusations, I just think it is a case of misplaced priorities because of the failure to understand the perspective of the victims, and how suggesting these women don't speak out is literally doing the abusers job for them all over again and creating further victims.
We're being asked to choose the lesser of two evils and people coming down on the side of 'victims should shut up unless they have evidence' are choosing the wrong side.
In the meantime, this is one of those cases where WE can do something. We are the fans, we can demand change within the industry if change is needed (that's why I asked for people to share as much as possible their experience of how pro gaming as a whole deals with this stuff).
What if every time someone subscribes to a twitch.tv channel they do so with the message IMPROVE SEXUAL HARASSMENT SUPPORT IN THE GAMING SCENE?
or something catchier like a hashtag or something.
These reckonings require action (i mean reform), and I would be extremely surprised if there isn't some action that could be taken immediately if the pressure was there.
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edit: removed for the sake of correctness.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny.
Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong.
On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Strawman. It would also be quite bizarre for multiple reasons.
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On June 24 2020 23:04 linestein wrote:
Personally, I would like to see some positive proof of identity.
I know who RAPiD is. We can all watch him cast live Remastered Streams. If the accusers were also to provide some strong proof of identity then it would be incredibly helpful. Given that the nature of the accusation is fairly mild, I don't see a reason that RAPiD's accusers can't produce some more convincing proof of their identities.
I mean, if the accused never spoke up and even attempted to defend themselves....are you still going to try this shit? What more needs to be said?
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On June 24 2020 22:53 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:46 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd be interested to hear from people within the pro gaming scene (Team Liquid the team I'm looking at you) about what experiences they have in gaming.
Who would you report sexual harassment to? Have you known anyone who has reported this stuff within the industry, and how did it turn out? Are there things that should be improved immediately in terms of support? Are there people in the industry that everyone knows are a problem but nothing can be done to remove them (not asking for names but this stuff is a good indicator of how 'healthy' the reporting/support system is)?
For some answer, TLO's experience is right there in the opening post. Jinro also commented on his tweet if you want more. And Top/Kiwian, who was part of that oGs-Liquid teamhouse apparently talked about it on stream today if you want to look up the VOD.
Thanks, this is helpful.
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On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Hi there! I am gonna fix you shitty comparison:
- Both of you know each other, or have worked together a bunch of times.
- He is known to have a creepy behaviour towards people of your gender.
- There have been previous allegations of that sort towards him.
- A really big company refuses to work with him or stopped to do that.
- You are able to give precise information about that "rape" encounter, and you have people who can corroborate the context (they saw you together before, they know both of you were at the same place, they know he behaves like that often, etc.).
- After you say this, 3 more people of your gender come forward and tell similar stories. All of them can give that precise information.
Ok, then it can be compared to the RAPiD situation. You are welcome.
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On June 24 2020 23:01 Elmonti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:51 True_Spike wrote:On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Sexual abuse / harassment won't go away because we blindly trust every person who posts something on social media. Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Making sure they know their rights, know when and how to prosecute offenders is important, because this way the actual abusers face the consequences of their actions, land behind bars or at the very least are prosecuted (and the more cases there are the more attention they will get as part of a systemic issue). It doesn't mean no other actions should be taken to make people as safe as possible - everywhere, everyone, under all circumstances. If people in the US are sentenced based on testimony of a single person and nothing else then I'd say maybe it's not the best judiciary system in the world and perhaps needs an overhaul. That statement is REALLY fucked up, dude. Putting the spot on the victim and not the offender... So I guess when we talk about gun victims, we should educate people on recognizing and avoiding the shootings, right? That's where we should put our efforts. And educating people to recognize drunks driving, so they can avoid them?. Putting the effort on recognizing, avoiding and handling the offender... not in trying to avoid him/her becoming one, or outing them before they repeat the crime or when they do it. And sexual abuse/harassment won't go away because we are human beings: people with any sort of power (physical, social, etc.) tend to use it to take advantage of others for their own benefit. Not because of fucking social media... I really hope you are trolling or something, because jesus christ if that's not the case... Get your shit together...
You're right - why avoid a potential harmful situation if we can just pretend the problems of rape, sexual assualt / abuse / harassment don't exist in the first place and just continue living in our fantasy la la land?
You mention drunk driving - educating people on the risks and consequences of doing so, educating people to react to their friends and family doing so. You know, this weird thing called awareness and prevention goes a long way.
You do undestand I don't mean "THESE WHORES WORE SKIMPY CLOTHING AND WERE ASKING FOR IT"? Doing everything possible to stop abusers from abusing is one thing, but it's not something that happens overnight. If it does unfrotunately happen then the next best thing is to make sure the victims know how to proceed. Doing nothing is the worst thing that they can do and apparently that's what they opt to do very often.
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