EPTNo, the person should not be forced to go live in a foreign, very distant country for months, without being surrounded by friends, family and comfortable environment, and exclude himself from earning a very good living, only because you on the forum want him to "prove himself". What is wrong with people. Paricipating in GSL is a choice, not an obligation.
[IEM XIII] Katowice 2019 - Round of 76 Day 2 - Page 26
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3993 Posts
No, the person should not be forced to go live in a foreign, very distant country for months, without being surrounded by friends, family and comfortable environment, and exclude himself from earning a very good living, only because you on the forum want him to "prove himself". What is wrong with people. Paricipating in GSL is a choice, not an obligation. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15828 Posts
On February 27 2019 20:26 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Every time people bring the argument "Serral duck out on participating in GSL" I seriously question their ability to think. No, the person should not be forced to go live in a foreign, very distant country for months, without being surrounded by friends, family and comfortable environment, and exclude himself from earning a very good living, only because you on the forum want him to "prove himself". What is wrong with people. Paricipating in GSL is a choice, not an obligation. If you want to be considered the best then you need to play in the hardest region and compete vs the best players. He doesn't need to be of course if he just wants to earn money and have fun playing starcraft (which is perfectly fine) but that's just how it is. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17736 Posts
On February 27 2019 20:42 Charoisaur wrote: If you want to be considered the best then you need to play in the hardest region and compete vs the best players. He doesn't need to be of course if he just wants to earn money and have fun playing starcraft (which is perfectly fine) but that's just how it is. Or he just has to win all the prestigious international tournaments where everybody shows up from all regions... such as GSL vs the World, or Blizzcon. The best player in the world does not necessarily play in the GSL. Perhaps we should require Maru to play in WCS Europe, because that's where the best player in the world plays... IEM is obviously another excellent arena for players from different regions to clash, and we'll see how the favourites do. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On February 27 2019 14:04 Nakajin wrote: Maru-Serral are 3-3 in map and 2-1 for Serral in match, but Maru won the big one (WESG) 3-0 Serral-TY played against each other once.... in 2014 a 2-1 victory for TY at the time As for Gumiho he's 9-5 in map vs Serral and 3-1 in match all in 2017 including a couple of win at Blizzcon that eliminated Serral from the global final All time Serral has a 43% winrate vs Korean terran both in map and match, and in 2018 he had a 66% map score and a 8 and 1 record vs Korean T, his only lost being of course the WESG one vs Maru. So overall not a lot of info, he did also had a loss against Uthermal at the start of last year, rest is all win and two bo1 loss (vs UT and Kella, second one isn't really a lost, just count as bo1 because it was Nation War he won 2-1) This post is brought you by Aligulac Gumiho vs Serral was insane on abyssal reef, and Serral threw it iirc, I don't think he can win now, plus if he barely win against Reynor, there is no chance against Serral  Different story for INno, Maru and TY tho. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6655 Posts
Serral is the favorite vs everyone in his group besides Rogue maybe. Rogue is more of a 50:50 thing, depending on game length. Last year Serral's lategame was the best there is. Curious if he can keep it up this year | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4901 Posts
On February 27 2019 21:00 Acrofales wrote: Or he just has to win all the prestigious international tournaments where everybody shows up from all regions... such as GSL vs the World, or Blizzcon. The best player in the world does not necessarily play in the GSL. Perhaps we should require Maru to play in WCS Europe, because that's where the best player in the world plays... IEM is obviously another excellent arena for players from different regions to clash, and we'll see how the favourites do. But Maru is banned to participate in WCS Europe... And the problem for Serral is that there are too few International tournaments to participate to asses is strength over longer periods of time. No one forces Serral to participate in GSL, but If you want to be considered the BEST you need to face the hardest competition possible regularly. But I bet Serral doesnt care if we consider him the best or not, that's why he stays in Suomi | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3993 Posts
On February 27 2019 20:42 Charoisaur wrote: If you want to be considered the best then you need to play in the hardest region and compete vs the best players. There are two challenges with this statement. 1. The logic is not proven. I.e. being the best in the hardest region does mean you are the best. Being the best elsewhere does not mean you are not the best. 2. Being considered the best is subjective and and such will always be arguable. And that's fine. Problem is when people label you a "chicken" or a "fraud" for "dodging hardest competition" and forcing you to do things that reduce the quality of your life and can potentially hurt mentally (we had these cases before). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote: But Maru is banned to participate in WCS Europe... And the problem for Serral is that there are too few International tournaments to participate to asses is strength over longer periods of time. No one forces Serral to participate in GSL, but If you want to be considered the BEST you need to face the hardest competition possible regularly. But I bet Serral doesnt care if we consider him the best or not, that's why he stays in Suomi Serral doesn't care because he actually IS the best, and he is considered as such even here on TL! Despite the incredibly vocal attitude of korean elitists, polls show the majority believes Serral to be the best, not to mention his official Player of the Year 2018 award which assures us even the staff is convinced of that. Thus said, it would be amazing to see him play in Code S and this year could theorically be a good year; going in 2018 would have been a senseless decision. In any of case, Serral didn't seem interested in doing so after HSC and we can only hope he changes opinion; he is not, by any means, required to do it to please you guys. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17736 Posts
On February 27 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote: But Maru is banned to participate in WCS Europe... No he isn't. If Maru were to move to Europe, he could play in WCS Europe. He's just banned from flying in 3 times a year for a weekender while living in Korea. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
On February 27 2019 21:00 Acrofales wrote: Or he just has to win all the prestigious international tournaments where everybody shows up from all regions. When Serral does that, let me know. Last year he lost the two most prestigious international tournaments he played in - WESG and most importantly IEM. GSL vs The World is a vacation time for Koreans, Blizzcon isn't a challenging tournament compared to IEM or Super Tournament (let alone Code S), and homestory cup, while his one great win in my opinion, does not make him the best player in the world. Before Homestory Cup, his year was still worse than Classics (regardless of what biased commentators said). And the fact that Serral fans think hes the best player in the world doesn't mean he is. It is not possible to rank Serral because he is good enough to do well at a couple weekenders, but he refuses to participate in the major leagues (GSL). If he wants to play in the minor leagues (WCS) and rack up wins and money, that's his decision, but saying he's the best player in the world isn't something an objective observer could say. Note that if Classic hadn't had to withdral from Group D, the only european in this IEM other than Serral would be someone who got in during the EU qualifiers (where Koreans cant really play, and he got in AFTER the two best NA players and other strong NA player didn't even show up and most likely would have qualified if she had). That says something about the region. It's so sad how, when Artosis or one of the writers on this website say something (like that the people who say Serral isn't the best player in the world are Korean Elitists, or that the scene is divided between Serral fans and Korean Elitists), soon you have 90% of this forum parroting it like it's gospel. The amount of fanboying on this website for Sharp is another example of this - it's ridiculous how many more fans Sharp has than Last when the latters' play is so much more inspired and has worked just as hard (if not harder) than Sharp. | ||
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GoloSC2
708 Posts
On February 27 2019 22:26 Rodya wrote: When Serral does that, let me know. Last year he lost the two most prestigious international tournaments he played in - WESG and most importantly IEM. GSL vs The World is a vacation time for Koreans, Blizzcon isn't a challenging tournament compared to IEM or Super Tournament (let alone Code S), and homestory cup, while his one great win in my opinion, does not make him the best player in the world. Before Homestory Cup, his year was still worse than Classics (regardless of what biased commentators said). And the fact that Serral fans think hes the best player in the world doesn't mean he is. It is not possible to rank Serral because he is good enough to do well at a couple weekenders, but he refuses to participate in the major leagues (GSL). If he wants to play in the minor leagues (WCS) and rack up wins and money, that's his decision, but saying he's the best player in the world isn't something an objective observer could say. Note that if Classic hadn't had to withdral from Group D, the only european in this IEM other than Serral would be someone who got in during the EU qualifiers (where Koreans cant really play, and he got in AFTER the two best NA players and other strong NA player didn't even show up and most likely would have qualified if she had). That says something about the region. It's so sad how, when Artosis or one of the writers on this website say something (like that the people who say Serral isn't the best player in the world are Korean Elitists, or that the scene is divided between Serral fans and Korean Elitists), soon you have 90% of this forum parroting it like it's gospel. The amount of fanboying on this website for Sharp is another example of this - it's ridiculous how many more fans Sharp has than Last when the latters' play is so much more inspired and has worked just as hard (if not harder) than Sharp. i'm impressed by how much effort you put into your baits, like proper punctuation and proper paragraphs and so on | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2019 22:26 Rodya wrote: When Serral does that, let me know. Last year he lost the two most prestigious international tournaments he played in - WESG and most importantly IEM. GSL vs The World is a vacation time for Koreans, Blizzcon isn't a challenging tournament compared to IEM or Super Tournament (let alone Code S), and homestory cup, while his one great win in my opinion, does not make him the best player in the world. Before Homestory Cup, his year was still worse than Classics (regardless of what biased commentators said). And the fact that Serral fans think hes the best player in the world doesn't mean he is. It is not possible to rank Serral because he is good enough to do well at a couple weekenders, but he refuses to participate in the major leagues (GSL). If he wants to play in the minor leagues (WCS) and rack up wins and money, that's his decision, but saying he's the best player in the world isn't something an objective observer could say. Note that if Classic hadn't had to withdral from Group D, the only european in this IEM other than Serral would be someone who got in during the EU qualifiers (where Koreans cant really play, and he got in AFTER the two best NA players and other strong NA player didn't even show up and most likely would have qualified if she had). That says something about the region. It's so sad how, when Artosis or one of the writers on this website say something (like that the people who say Serral isn't the best player in the world are Korean Elitists, or that the scene is divided between Serral fans and Korean Elitists), soon you have 90% of this forum parroting it like it's gospel. The amount of fanboying on this website for Sharp is another example of this - it's ridiculous how many more fans Sharp has than Last when the latters' play is so much more inspired and has worked just as hard (if not harder) than Sharp. You should stick to Brood War where the korean only scene allows you to judge more objectively. Sharp has won nothing but recently he is in a great shape and people love him whereas Last was clearly better in his post KeSpa career, judging by feats alone. Coming to sc2, not only Serral's fan think he is the best; the majority is not usually right, but when datas, analists and the biggest number of fans all converge towards one conclusion you might be induced to think it's more likely the truth even if it doesn't mirror your opinion. You could have frankly avoided to embarass yourself by saying that Classic's 2018 was better than Serral's since HSC to one unbiased observer; I won't comment on how you rate tournaments, i'll just ask you how can WESG be more important than BlizzCon given that the historical prestige, the money prize and even the korean density of the second are way higher. Ah, I can't help but remind you that Innovation would have surely 3-0d Serral at that vacation tournament named GSL vs The World. I will never cease to repeat WESG and IEM took place before Serral's ascension to best player in the world, and even then he placed 3rd and 3rd/4th; this cannot be called a failure. His amazing consistence and unprecedent streak are added value to his 2018 victories and that's too easily disregarded by those who try to diminish his results. There isn't a single player in Starcraft's history who has been as unbeatable as Serral has been from April until now; everyone, as his peak, has dropped one series or lost one turnaments without doubters rushing to dethrone him early. Were Serral to lose this weekend he would likely still be the best in the world; as I previously said, one single tournament rarely is highly indicative while trends tell a deeper truth. Concluding, it's true that foreigners, and europeans especially, underperformed at IEM's qualifiers in 2019. What does this have to do with Serral's 2018 results? Moreover, NA seems to be better than EU atm in its best players if we exclude Serral but EU depth is still higher. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6655 Posts
On February 27 2019 22:26 Rodya wrote: When Serral does that, let me know. Last year he lost the two most prestigious international tournaments he played in - WESG and most importantly IEM. GSL vs The World is a vacation time for Koreans, Blizzcon isn't a challenging tournament compared to IEM or Super Tournament (let alone Code S), and homestory cup, while his one great win in my opinion, does not make him the best player in the world. Before Homestory Cup, his year was still worse than Classics (regardless of what biased commentators said). And the fact that Serral fans think hes the best player in the world doesn't mean he is. It is not possible to rank Serral because he is good enough to do well at a couple weekenders, but he refuses to participate in the major leagues (GSL). If he wants to play in the minor leagues (WCS) and rack up wins and money, that's his decision, but saying he's the best player in the world isn't something an objective observer could say. Note that if Classic hadn't had to withdral from Group D, the only european in this IEM other than Serral would be someone who got in during the EU qualifiers (where Koreans cant really play, and he got in AFTER the two best NA players and other strong NA player didn't even show up and most likely would have qualified if she had). That says something about the region. It's so sad how, when Artosis or one of the writers on this website say something (like that the people who say Serral isn't the best player in the world are Korean Elitists, or that the scene is divided between Serral fans and Korean Elitists), soon you have 90% of this forum parroting it like it's gospel. The amount of fanboying on this website for Sharp is another example of this - it's ridiculous how many more fans Sharp has than Last when the latters' play is so much more inspired and has worked just as hard (if not harder) than Sharp. Back from your time-out already? There is so much wrong in this post, I don't even know where to begin. So I just don't 4 more days guys, then we know more  | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8980 Posts
On February 27 2019 12:04 J. Corsair wrote: What is the map score between Maru and Serral now? Has Serral ever beaten TY or Gumiho? I don't remember them playing but they must have. I score GSL victories more highly than any other weekend style tournament but maybe times have changed. Serral hasn't beaten Gumiho, he lost 0-2 and 1-2 when they met at blizzcon 2017. He's never faced TY. Offline he's 1-3 in maps against Maru. With Maru winning 3-0 at wesg, and Serral winning a bo1 showmatch at gsl vs the world. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
IEM are the final test | ||
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GoloSC2
708 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:30 DieuCure wrote: IEM is the only real tournament, no region lock, only one invitation, Blizzcon/WCS are jokes, Rodya is right. Serral is one of the best tho, but you cant say that he is THE best since he didnt have to play against players like Maru and TY or others top world Terrans to win the WCS. IEM are the final test i liked rodya's bait more. while you make a concession to mask it, your statements are still very strong and not disguised by the amount of text rodya wrote. also i think the emoji usage is a little outdated. between this emoji and rodya's brood war paragraph, i favor rodya's approach. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15828 Posts
On February 27 2019 21:53 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: 2. Being considered the best is subjective and and such will always be arguable. not always. Flash was the best player in 2010, that's not subjective it's a fact. Or other examples Mvp in 2011, Zest in 2014, Life from Blizzcon 2014 to GSL season 1 2015, Inno for most of 2017 etc. If Serral doesn't play in GSL he will never reach that level where he's universally considered the best player. On February 27 2019 21:53 Xain0n wrote: Serral doesn't care because he actually IS the best, and he is considered as such even here on TL! Despite the incredibly vocal attitude of korean elitists, polls show the majority believes Serral to be the best, not to mention his official Player of the Year 2018 award which assures us even the staff is convinced of that. You mean the majority of the foreign community think he's the best. Not surprising that after 20 years of being overshadowed by koreans they jump on the opportunity to call the first foreign player who's on the level of top koreans the best player. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:37 GoloSC2 wrote: i liked rodya's bait more. while you make a concession to mask it, your statements are still very strong and not disguised by the amount of text rodya wrote. also i think the emoji usage is a little outdated. between this emoji and rodya's brood war paragraph, i favor rodya's approach. There is not bait dude, if you consider region locked and invitationals tournament better than IEM then i cant help. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:40 Charoisaur wrote: not always. Flash was the best player in 2010, that's not subjective it's a fact. Or other examples Mvp in 2011, Zest in 2014, Life from Blizzcon 2014 to GSL season 1 2015, Inno for most of 2017 etc. If Serral doesn't play in GSL he will never reach that level where he's universally considered the best player. not to mention the korean scene is a shadow of what it was in the past and the game is just less competitive than it has been in the past | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3993 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:40 Charoisaur wrote: not always. Flash was the best player in 2010, that's not subjective it's a fact. Or other examples Mvp in 2011, Zest in 2014, Life from Blizzcon 2014 to GSL season 1 2015, Inno for most of 2017 etc. If Serral doesn't play in GSL he will never reach that level where he's universally considered the best player. This is perfect. I agree with a couple of your nominations and disagree with the others. Thats a definition of something being subjective. Until there is a defined term for the "best" - you really can't get away with such shit. | ||
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