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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:46 starkiller123 wrote: not to mention the korean scene is a shadow of what it was in the past and the game is just less competitive than it has been in the past There isnt the same depth for sure, but the players are better than in the past. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:52 DieuCure wrote: There isnt the same depth for sure, but the players are better than in the past. I can't put into words how much I disagree with this. This is really just Artosis way to get people hyped about the current scene and I see very little arguments for why that should be the case. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:40 Charoisaur wrote: not always. Flash was the best player in 2010, that's not subjective it's a fact. Or other examples Mvp in 2011, Zest in 2014, Life from Blizzcon 2014 to GSL season 1 2015, Inno for most of 2017 etc. If Serral doesn't play in GSL he will never reach that level where he's universally considered the best player. You mean the majority of the foreign community think he's the best. Not surprising that after 20 years of being overshadowed by koreans they jump on the opportunity to call the first foreign player who's on the level of top koreans the best player. He was not at the level of, he was better than every korean he faced after April, and he was rightfully called the best players for his unprecedent streak and domination. The hype due to his nationality is real but so are his results. I have no insight into Sc2's korean community so I can't confirm, but after BlizzCon someome posted their reactions on TL and they seemed to think Serral was the best; do you have confirmation that this is not the case? | ||
Poopi
France13011 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:57 DieuCure wrote: Top players i mean, how can you think that TY for example is weaker than in the past ? They are about the same except they don't practice necessarily as much as in the past since there is far less competition. So they are probably a bit weaker. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
I think the same goes for consistent top players of LoTV as Stats, Dark and TY. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:58 Poopi wrote: They are about the same except they don't practice necessarily as much as in the past since there is far less competition. So they are probably a bit weaker. And how would you judge this? LoTV is a more mechanically demanding game, I see very impressive games at the highest levels. You could only wonder what would have happened if KeSpa had switched to LoTV, we will never have the answer. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
In sc2 we always had weekend tournaments where a bunch of top players were missing and even in gsl some players didn't show up who would strengthen it. Tbf though, in the case of gsl it was almost negligible, at least in direct comparison to the other way around. I don't think that changed too much, especially with a bunch of the best foreigners trying in gsl regularly, it is really just serral who doesn't ever. While none of the top koreans try in wcs for obvious reasons. That is why gsl is still seen as the highest lvl of competition. With that being said, serral won a bunch of high lvl tournaments, denying that is dumb at this point, if that meant his year was more impressive than maru's is another question and imo one can make a case for both povs here. (though serral simply ended the year strongly while maru did not, so serral's claim might be stronger on that front, maru just did too poorly at blizzcon) | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
And sorry for saying WESG > Blizzcon, actually they are about the same. Ranking of tournaments is Code S > IEM > Super Tournament > Homestory Cup > Blizzcon/WESG > GSL vs The World > Invitational tournaments in China with Koreans > WCS events. Serral is definitely climbing the ladder, but he's far from the top currently. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:57 DieuCure wrote: Top players i mean, how can you think that TY for example is weaker than in the past ? I mean yeah maybe TY is better than he was in 2014 but there are so many top players that are no longer around and the scene has a fraction of the depth it used to have | ||
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sneakyfox
8217 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:57 DieuCure wrote: Top players i mean, how can you think that TY for example is weaker than in the past ? just quoting myself here On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote: In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. TY is only 24 and was quite of a late bloomer so he specificially might be stronger than in like 2014 but the majority of the korean scene is way weaker now. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Circuit's level was high in 2018 as shown by Scarlett's Pyeongchang victory and deep code S runs by her, Neeb, Reynor and Special; Korea, of course, is still better. Katowice's 2019 qualifiers went bad for foreigners but this doesn't necessarily imply Circuit's level has gone down, just that many of its players aren't in their best shape at the moment. | ||
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herwo
199 Posts
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DarkGamer
Germany331 Posts
On February 28 2019 02:13 herwo wrote: even if serral won code S, people here would say he only won 1, while others won 3, so serral hasn't proved himself. if he won 3 x GSL, then his runs must've been easy. truth is, if you understand the game, you can tell who's better by watching them play without having to look up past results I agree a lot! the problem with some people, especially korean biased ppl (for example rodya, whose post cant be taken seriously) is, that they seem to like to argue, but dont understand the game a lot. by watching the players play, u can judge a lot about their skill level - well only if u have deep understand of the game of course. beeing high master / grandmaster can help, but some ppl still prove that its no security for a valid judgement. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 27 2019 23:52 DieuCure wrote: There isnt the same depth for sure, but the players are better than in the past. Out of all the elite players, the only ones who are playing at their career best right now are Serral, maybe Maru, and sometimes Stats/Rogue. INno, ByuN, Zest, hero, Classic, soO, Solar, Dark, ByuL etc, just about every other elite or formally elite korean player is beyond their peak or retired. The only ones you can argue are playing at their career highs are lower level guys like Bunny, | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
On February 28 2019 05:31 DarkGamer wrote: I agree a lot! the problem with some people, especially korean biased ppl (for example rodya, whose post cant be taken seriously) is, that they seem to like to argue, but dont understand the game a lot. by watching the players play, u can judge a lot about their skill level - well only if u have deep understand of the game of course. beeing high master / grandmaster can help, but some ppl still prove that its no security for a valid judgement. Yeah, its the minority opinion that comes from being a sub m1 player, not the majority opinion. Makes sense to me. Anyway i dont like to argue, its just annoying to see people lie so much. Lets just watch the games this week and see the results. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On February 28 2019 06:08 Fango wrote: Out of all the elite players, the only ones who are playing at their career best right now are Serral, maybe Maru, and sometimes Stats/Rogue. INno, ByuN, Zest, hero, Classic, soO, Solar, Dark, ByuL etc, just about every other elite or formally elite korean player is beyond their peak or retired. The only ones you can argue are playing at their career highs are lower level guys like Bunny, Byun, Byul and hero are retired players lol. soO peaked a year and 4 months ago i guess, Classic last year, Dark is regular. Even if they practice less harder ( for some players) than in 2014, how can you say that they are weaker since they have 5+ years of accumulation of knowledge of the game, and a lot of practice. Same goes for the brood war scene. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On February 28 2019 10:46 DieuCure wrote: Byun, Byul and hero are retired players lol. soO peaked a year and 4 months ago i guess, Classic last year, Dark is regular. Even if they practice less harder ( for some players) than in 2014, how can you say that they are weaker since they have 5+ years of accumulation of knowledge of the game, and a lot of practice. Same goes for the brood war scene. The skill progression level is not linear, there is a such thing as atrophy and declining motivation. You can argue experience is though (which is especially important on the psychological front for offline events). The 5+ years of playing doesn't necessarily carry over through to different expansions and metas either. A prime example is ByuL who suffered big time when the meta didn't favor his trusty mutalisks which was one of the defining attributes of his play. I agree on Dark still being at his usual level. herO isn't retired, he's currently in the group stages of IEM, unless he's Stephano "retired" and I didn't hear about it. As for soO, I mean yeah his 2017 was killer but I still think 2014 soO puts him away. soO has never had a game in LotV as impressive as this one imo: Note the amount of workers he loses, his opponent is peak Flash (who just won an IEM) and who has some of the best macro in the business, and yet still... | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
Wow he won against someone that never made it to the GSL playoffs, nice. It's not because Flash was good in brood war that he is a sc2 god, he was just average. 3 of the The International 2018 champions are 25+, and one was a coach for 2 years, age isnt the only factor and brood war isnt the only reference. | ||
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