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Korea (South)1897 Posts
I recently was doing some research and came across the online nytimes.com articles, and the journalism and writing is just great. The depth of content and the level of conversation is right up my alley, I guess it's cause the writers are mostly around my age of early 40's or so.
Straight White Men
Anyways, I came across this interesting article on an interesting person, who happens to be near the same age as me,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/straight-white-men-broadway-s-first-asian-american-female-writer-n890311
Young Jean Lee may be believed to be the first Asian-American woman to write a play scheduled to be produced on Broadway, but she wants to take her audience into the mind of straight white men.
Lee’s play, “Straight White Men,” explores the themes of identity, privilege and American values, she said. Known for writing plays that focus on identity from various points of view, Lee said she wanted to explore the notion of how the titular group now has a label attached to it.
“I noticed a societal shift where straight white men used to be just the default human and now they have an identity category,” Lee said. “They’re reacting to it in the way everybody reacts to it when that happens to them. Nobody likes it, but they’re experiencing it for the first time.”
That isn't the article, but I read her - Young Jean Lee- bio and she was raised in a small town US after going there as a young girl from South Korea with her Korean parents and much of what she has experienced or how she observes the world is similar in how I do too.
Ripped for being me
A long time ago I wrote a blog post as an AMA on being a Korean man and I had this one girl come in there and just flame the fuck out of me and I tried to get some understanding between us, but I guess in nowaday terms I was mansplaining and she was rude as fuck. So I hammered her and I guess because of me she left TL. Nowadays in Korea we have a site called Womad (woman mad I guess), basically it's a radacalized feminist + all men should die site. It's got Korea in a bit of tiffy, on one side they are right about a few things: like when there is a hidden camera targeting women its not a big deal to the police, but when it happens to men, its a national man hunt, but other things, like all men are scum and should have their balls ripped off, well, its a bit much.
But in my downtime, I've actually got to learn about and bought a book from, Milo, "the dangerous faggot". And this other guy Ben Shapio the Harvard law school Jewish conservative. And I gotta say, I love these guys, because they are unapologetic, and they have cut through a lot of the bullshit of being politically correct and get down to what they understand as good/bad. It's honest, and it's courageous. I can't say I disagree with a lot of what they say, and the things I disagree with them on, I think it's just a lack of experience they have, not a lack of mental framework - meaning that they are still young in some areas of their experiences, but given further experiences and mentors, I'm sure we'd all be great buddies. Now I say this as a guy who normally travels 90 times a years across the world and works with governments etc, so I would say, no matter what these two have gone through, even the Milo, my life experience would be a bit more. But regardless, they impress me a lot, and the main thing is, separating their marketing image and seeing them as fallible humans, and what they are trying to express and their logic - and I love both these guys a lot, just as they are, very real interesting people.
So, as was reading over the last few days and recovering from a stomach flu, I came across the the Young Jean Lee article and I just wanted to get down my perspective of things, not as a Straight White Man, but an Old School Hot blooded Korean Man. And I I'll come back to all the stuff above. And the reason why I'm doing so, is just that, I wanted it to be a historical account as well as a reference point to any Asian Americans who have this kind of issue as well. Now who I am and what I believe, you guys can debate or whatever, but I am what I am at this point, and unless I get brain damage or something, it ain't going to change me; not cause I'm not up for learning and developing, but this is an honest account of me.
While I could go into a lengthy discourse about how and why my identity is this or that, that would be too exhausting for me to do, rather, I'm just going to profile it out and you may or may not be able to connect the dots and I'll expand where I can. I'm just a tired fuck at this point, so I just don't have the stamina to write out my thoughts continuously like I use to, and plus nowadays, who the fuck actually reads anything in depth lol. You guys are champs for reading this much lol.
Old School Korean Hot Blooded Man
In no particular order:
1. Korea women in Korea, you want complete equality with men, protest first to get into the army so you have to spend 26 or however long months in the army too. Otherwise, just move to another country and fuck off.
2. Korean men who have any balls, obviously we don't want Korean women to go to war, so we don't bring this up and would happy die for our friends, family and our women and children. You want to hate us for that, well go fuck off to another country. You want just say, that's nice, but we'd rather have equal rights. Well fuck, go right ahead, if that is really what you guys want, we won't stop you, just like how in Korea a lot of families are double income, if that is the modern situation, go ahead, but don't fucking think that it doesn't happen with you guys going to the army too.
You can't have it both ways and that why your feminist movement never goes anywhere in Korea, cause you don't want to accept this point and talk about everything else. There is nothing else to talk about it, this is a first principles thing, you want societal equality, it starts with the time served in the Army. And you wanna know the fucking truth of the matter is, every Korean guys knows this, but to be honest, we don't want you girls going to army, not because it would give you girls more equal rights, but because we don't want you to get hurt. We'd rather get hurt. For Korean American women, just go marry a non Korean if you hate our culture so much. Problem solved.
3. Any Korean guy who want Korean women to go to the army, because they want an equal society and think it's unfair, you can get the fuck out of Korea too you gutless pussy. If the women want it, it's fine, but if you as a man want it too, then you're not a man, at least not a Korean man.
4. I am Korean, but I'm not a native South Korean. Although I know gangnam like the back of my hand, I don't use a navi to drive here, and went to school here and worked here in a major corporation, married, children born here, I'll never be a native South Korean, but that doesn't make me not a Korean, just not a native South Korean one.
It's just like saying is a North Korean, Korean? Yes they are. But would they identify as being Korean being South Korean. No. A lot of North Korean defectors who have gone to visit America have commented that they feel more at home with a second generation family than in South Korea as it more comfortable because the 2nd generation's parents were basically from that time before Korea split. Well most of them are grandparents now. My parents were both born in 1940 and 1943 respectively.
5. I'm not Asian American or whatever. I'm not Asian. What the fuck is white or black, how fucking retard is that to identify people by just the colour of their skin and not the culture behind them? This is just simplifying something which shouldn't be simplified because you simplify and lose meaning in the person(s) and there isn't anything else to talk about because you're too ignorant to talk about culture or know your own culture.
I am Korean. Full Stop.
I was educated in both Korea and America (US/Canada).
I feel most comfortable in Zurich, because discreet actions and how you perform are then only things that really matter.
6. When you're in Asia, you don't say you're Asian, you say you're Japanese, Chinese from Beijing, or Hongkonger or whatever. Whatever you do, whoever you are. you need to be from a clear cultural identity. If not, you're just being defined by being black white or asian, and who is doing that defining? the mainstream american culture and media.
7. You need to know your culture, you need to know your home language, enough to make sense of what you know impicitly. There is no short cut about this. Without it you are forever just speculating and are never going to be clear about your identity.
8. Wherever I am, I'm Korean, but I don't need to prove that. It is who I am and it will come out naturally in my actions. My US friends or my Swiss friends may see my actions as quirky sometimes, but my Korean friends will see it as being Korean. Sometimes I'll be with Chinese or Taiwanese friends and we'll go to Korean restaurant or we'll meet some Korean clients together and they will be 'omg, you're so Korean, I had no idea, it's like you're a totally different person' and I'm like, well you guys aren't Korean, so why would talk to you like you're korean? lol. Same like with my American friends, they are like, 'holy shit, you're like Korean'and I'm like, 'lol, um yeah, the fucks wrong with you?'.
9. If I'm going to live somewhere, I am going to respect and interact in that culture as the mainstream culture. If I'm in the US, I'm going to interact as a straight white guy, If I'm China, I'm going to interact as a straight chinese guy, if I'm in a gay bar, I'm going to interact as a gay teddy bear. My point is, the context doesn't define you, I define me, and I do so, not from my own opinion, but from my foundation in have a clear core identity, then, whatever culture I'm part of then I embrace and respect. If I want to be a Korean in America, then I should fuck off back to Korea, asking for respect in another country while trying to make others interact with me as a Korean when the don't even know what that means, is fucking dumb. Seriously, its stupid and the reason why people think that is even possible is because in America everything is black white brown yellow etc. And Korean Americans can be the most dumb about it.
10. For fuck sakes, just cause you watch korean dramas, listen to K-pop, and eat Korean food, doesn't make you more Korean, it makes you a consumer of Korean modern and food culture. If that was the case then all of Southeast Asia, Taiwan and whole fucking provinces of China would be Korean. It's unavoidable, but if you really want to be Korean, you gotta come and live in Korea, even if it is for a bit of time, and while I have my qualms about modern south korean culture, one thing is is for sure, as a man, if you can drink like a how Koreans drink, then you basically know 50% of it. And its more than just drinking for fun in K-town, really Korean drinking is for every emotional issue you'd have that you would normally go for therapy for, but instead, 'drink till you all die together' for sanity.
11. My parents were Korean, I can't help where I was educated and raised, but that being said, I know I'm not fully accepted in America, and I'm not fully accepted by everyone in Korea. Speak to me more than 5 mins in Korean and my English accent comes out. Speak to me for more than 30 mins in Korean and you'll know I don't think like a South Korean. Speak to me on the phone, and you'll think on any given day, you'll think I'm from Texas or somewhere from New England until I get excited and I say 'eh' and you'll say, you must be Canadian. But meet me in person in America and you'll change you perspective of my cultural identity maybe 3 or 4 times in an hour. It's has been a complicated journey, because there aren't many people with the circumstances that I and people like Young Jean Lee had to go through. There was no k-pop when I growing up, there were no other Koreans, and when going back to Korea, there were no people like me there either. But, getting through it all and not stopping to just settle, I have a clarity about something people take for granted.
12. There is white privilege. But there is also Korean privilege, or, we'd say, whatever privilege there is when you're part of the majority. But what makes white privilege unique is that that in Korea, if you're a foreigner, you're a foreigner, so you may call us racist or discriminatory, but this is you as foreigner being discriminated against for the first time as a minority. But, so what, you're a foreigner, you can't vote, you can grip, but we can deport your ass. But in America, when the country is your own country, you were born there, you were educated there and the only thing different from you and the other immigrant family is that he/she is white and you're not, well that this the crux of white privilege, because for no other reason than your skin color, you are excluded from the implicit perks of majority, although you have paid all its dues.
This is the understanding that I had back in the mid-90's before there was even the term white privilege and you'd be surprised that it would be a major reason why people got radicalized in the UK during that time, even though they didn't even speak the language of their heritage country. I'm in that generation that actually articulated what is white privilege and it has nothing to do with explicit discrimination, but serves as a constant reminder that you will never be part of the majority, who's requirement comes down to skin color.
In my case, I had another option, I could go somewhere where I could say, this is my country and this country that I have spent the majority of life in is where I am fundamentally now a foreigner too, and now I've spent half my life in Korea and half in America, and I feel no anger or animosity either way. Nothing is unfair, it is what it is.
13. When I'm in America, I am a straight white guy, because that is where the power is at. I mean, look, I love American culture and when I do business, it's mostly in an American corporate way. But, it's an active choice and I have no illusions that this is not my identity, it's just a form I take to best my objectives done. I mostly scare other straight white guys because I do it so well, meaning, I don't go for being a middle of the pack straight white guy, I go for being the alpha of the straight white guys or the inner circle right off the bat. And I take advantage of being Korean because I can get away with things that the straight white guy would be Politically correct crucified for, while I can say, fuck it, I'm Korean. I can do this because, 1. I'm not looking for affirmation from anyone about who I am, 2. I would do the same in any culture I am a part of that I have a deep understanding off. 3. If I don't have a deep understanding, then i'll settle for respectful foreigner.
14. I'm old school Korean, not modern south korean. There is a lot of differences.I don't believe in gender roles, I am a gender role. i.e. man. full stop. Being a man has responsibilities, and top of the list is providing for the family, defending the country and not complaining and bringing to the table whatever the wife's expectations are. That being said, I am not going to impose my gender role understanding on women, if you're my wife, you're my wife because you are a woman who wants to be with an old school Korean guy. if you wanted to date me but wanted me to change to be more modern, then go fucking date someone else. If I had a daughter, the only thing I would say, is, Dad loves you, just respect my views, when you leave this house, you can live as you like, but you can't have it both ways. You can't have my undying devotion and protection for whatever mess you can possibly make and then just do whatever the fuck you want.
People just point out all the negatives of gender roles, because for the most part, it is very open to abuse. But if you're educated and have high sense of duty, then being a man, is not easy. If my wife is sick, I will clean the house, will do all the cooking, take care of the kids and manage my companies. These roles are not locked in stone and beyond common sense. If I were to be abusive and be rude to her, this not 1910, she can just get a divorce and leave and she comes from a wealthy family so she could do that, and there would be nothing for me to stop her. And if she did, I would still financially support the family in same way, it does not change my responsibility.
In the purest sense, Korean gender roles, are just areas of responsibility that are naturally assigned by gender, but doesn't mean there can't be a mix. I am a much better cook than my wife, but I can't cook and travel 90 flights a year. My wife graduated from a Korean ivy league school in law and was a Venture capitalist. She could have been making as near as much money as me in a career if she wanted to, but she chose to find a more alpha male than alpha female in her, so I could bear the brunt of her economic expectations and for her to focus on raising the children. And she works fucking hard taking care of our kids. She ain't no tiger mom, she has no expectations for the kids other than they be the best they can be in time, but for me. she is a slave driving evil warlord. But I make all the final decisions, but most of the times, I don't need to because we are aligned in our thinking, and when I need to take the final decision, it isn't because I'm imposing my will, its because I'm also taking responsibility for the consequences for the decision, that if it goes south, the expectation is on me alone to make it work, regardless of the cost. Of course my wife will support, but the responsibility is mine alone.
My daughter, if I had one, can't bitch at me for having inequality, when I'm on the verge of going full blown liver cirrhosis while I make sure that they are living a life without financial worry. My sons are taught to respect and love women. My wife is the most physically abusive person in our family, like she hits all of us. If I had a daughter and her boyfriend or husband hit her even once, I would break that hand and the arm and there would be no forgiveness for that cunt.
15. If North Korea was to attack right now, and I needed to help or fight, even as a fat fuck that I am now, I would do so and send my family packing to Busan.
16. I believe in multiculturalism like how they do it in Switzerland. But they have turned it into an identity of what it means to be Swiss. But I think it's fucking idiotic that you go to a country and expect to live as if you are still in your own country and for it to be fine or for them to accommodate you. If I live in America, I'll be the best damn American I can be, even if my skin is yellow. And if I can contribute to American society by adding my diversity as a Korean, then great, but why the fuck would I go to America otherwise?
17. Final point on identity; if you know who you are, then you don't need to give a fuck who others think about you, but coming to cultural self awareness and identify is difficult for Korean Americans. Something needs to push you from being a consumer of culture to beginning able to know it well it enough to wield it. My younger brother, had a pretty 'vactiony' experience in Korea. I paid for him to go to Yonsei Korean program for 2 summers, when he had his break from medical school. Gave him a credit card to use, and we lived in Apgujeong, so he never had to really experience the suffering that really makes you a Korean man. He married a Korean who doesn't like Korea (and South Korean native men lol) and they have a happy life in America and summers in Korea with their family. But, when I speak with him, there are family traits he has, but a real cultural identity of being Korean, he doesn't. He is just a consumer of culture and navigates his life so that his consumer world can be as seamless as possible.
Its the same as Korean Americans who just hang out in Korean Town, can't speak English or Korean properly and are just trying to live a life where they can consume in a comfortable way. Or else those who want to bitch about how unfair life is because of their skin color. Wake the fuck up, its the way it is, if you want not be the minority, come back to Korea if you can handle the Chosen hell of fun.
18. Final point on what Asian American men bitch about the most in how Asian American men are portrayed as either unsexy, nerds, pussies, tech wealth gays or immigrant thugs or martial artists. Well, if I was a US straight white guy director, I would be like, 'fuck, that's alI I see too'. If you really want to change how media portrays you in white American, you can't have it both ways like my fictional daughter. And because you want it both ways, it defines you all as a bunch of poser pussies (I'm generalizing here to make a point about the general group).
You want greater representation in Harvard and stability, but you don't understand the risk or want to take the risk in greater society, in the arts or other industries which you and your parents don't approve of. This more Asia discrimination against admissions to ivy leagues is probably true and 100% necessary. Fuck, its diminishing returns, for every additional Asia american with perfect SAT scored and hospital volunteer records, there is the exact same clone beside them, with zero value added for diversity. You're looking at Harvard for stability, not for greatness.
That lack imagination to actually write, direct, film and invest in what is Asian American is because the community's experiences and real cultural knowledge is all so fucking superficial that you can make a web tv series of ktown cowboys and then run out of material because after the drinking customs and a few phrases, its essentially just yellow trash. But if you look at the films Korean makes, the art houses ones, about the a family's mass murder suicide and can understand the depth of responsibility and the lack of hope a man can have in Korea to take their own family's life because he has failed in his responsibility to them and how he feels that this is his last act of responsibility and burden, if you could write about a Korean American start-up or production house where everyone there can actually speak Korean as well as English. Culture is not just hanging out because you're yellow, again, see the initial points above, it ain't that easy, culture is something and its a blessing to have.
I can't tell you how many white guys I've been introduced to who married Korean and they even speak better korean than me and try really hard to be Korean. And I love it, and I can accept them all as my Korean brothers, but as oldschool and backwards as it sounds, for Koreans, it's always been in the blood. That's a bad mentality to have, it divides us, and at the end of the day, I am what I am, both the good and bad, i don't and can't just pick and choose the good parts of the culture, because even what defines the good and bad of that choice? For most American Asians, they don't even see that their entire value and mental framework of what they think is Asian is all based on a US white persons framework. If it wasn't then they could never even think to identify with being Asian. But because they don't really know what Korean is, this is what they are consumers.
If you want Asian Males to be sexy and alpha, you've basically have 2 options. Go to and watch Asian films, dub em in English and make them play in theaters and tv screens across America. It still won't help you, but at least Americans will think we're more sexy in general and dress well.
Or, Asian Americans actually have to be straight Korean white guys (or insert whatever Asian nationality), cause even being sexy and alpha, and how it's all expressed is a white straight man thing. When I'm pissed off, like gonna go nuclear, I'm silent and make the room cold, then I plot my revenge so it's absolute zero, while I smile and invite the fucks I'm gonna destroy to dinner so I can prepare a bit more. That's elite Korean anger. But again, you can't have it both ways, you can't all be a bunch of gutless thug wanna be pussies and have you being portrayed as equal to straight white guys, when a community you're not even close. America isn't Asia, its America, the community needs to define their identity, as Korean straight white men, not waiting for straight white men to define something that Asia americans can't even do for themselves, and you have all let the straight white man define you all as only gay/nerd/thug/ non leading men. Even when we had the new Sulu as an ass kicking mofo, they made his ass gay cause they could LOL. Even George Takei was like wtf, and he be gay!
As far as the other Asian Americans go, I have no opinion on it, I'm not Chinese or Vietnamese or Filipino, and as far as the Korean American's I've pointed the finger at, I'm not pointing, just say, I don't give a fuck whether the community continues to be consumers and pussies and whiners, it doesn't bare any significance on me. I'm gonna 50 soon and I got my own family. But, if you take what I say, as my own honest account, I'd at least say, take your own account one way or another, stop being a consumer, but rather either be Korean, whatever that may be, or be the best damn American you can be and just know that if you do so, maybe you'll be included in the straight white man US narrative too. One day lol.
*This post was meant to be very honest, so I don't hold much back.
**Its specifically for men and the discussion of cultural male identity, if you're offended because you're a woman, its not my intention to offend you, its my intention to articulate my identity in relation to an American/Korean context. Even I say, I love and respect women, women who are offended will be offended by that because I'm still a old fashion fuck, but that's me, no apologies, you got your disclaimer its not for general readership.
***I actually don't judge or hate anyone because I actually don't give a fuck about how others want to live their life, my comments because its how I see things, but people will live as people will leave.
****But, I do care about people and this community and this is a personal contribution here. I may not be able to reply to comment immediately, as I'm ill as fuck and going into the hospital on Monday, but I always read the comments, good or bad, they're all good.
*****And if I were the justice in Korea, I would castrate all the perverted fucks who do any type of hidden camera or sexual crimes against women, pedo would get the whole fucking thing lopped off. All men wanna do sexual things, but if you don't have self control not to act out in public, then you should get some body part lopped of as reminder.
 
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TLADT24920 Posts
This was quite an interesting read. I think respecting another's culture is extremely important and it's also ok important that as an individual, you decide and stick to what you want to be. Might add more a bit later on to this.
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I really appreciated this. I feel bad you had to put all those asterisks at the end but understand why - I think that circles back to the original point about the play and "maleness" feeling under attack (not just white, necessarily).
Although, I've always felt individual identity more relevant. Like I do have a bit of canadian patriotism I suppose, but I have no real attachment to my family or cultural identity. And yet reading and understanding this blog I feel like I'd make an alright "old school hot blooded korean man" too.
Great read 
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I read the entirety of your post, so gimmie a damn medal 
I have a few reactions. Don't care that you don't wanna change, going to tell you anyway.
1. It strikes me as completely empty bravado about your ideas of the Korean draft. Korea doesn't need a fat old man in the army, you're completely safe. Whatever you may have served in the past, it's meaningless now. We always think we're tougher in retrospect, we never feel the same way when it's happening right now.
2. You're attacking a character you've made up, which is this feminist woman who wants equal rights but would never go to war. Moreover, it would be feasible to implement drafting women in to the army, but how can you promise equality in the workplace, or other feminist concerns? I think in fairness, you would have to deliver that equality before you could ask them to go to war, if that were really the trade.
That's pretty much it. I can't relate to being so attached to identity politics, but I understand that it is extremely important to building friendships and bonds with people. I am too logical to take on identities, so I end up being isolated because I get bored listening to people go to lengths to explain their identity so they can merge with the group, when none of what they say makes real sense. That is actually a flaw in my brain, because it's important to be able to become part of the group, and that is the point you make that I actually agree with. It is good to be a chameleon and act like the majority, and to become a caricature of that majority so that no one can doubt your authenticity. So I understand that the bravado and the outrage and the emphasis on who you are is important, what makes you able to do a job which is after all based in forming bonds with people. Even if you don't do it on purpose. But it's still irrational and petty lol.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 21 2018 02:53 Chef wrote:I read the entirety of your post, so gimmie a damn medal I have a few reactions. Don't care that you don't wanna change, going to tell you anyway. 1. It strikes me as completely empty bravado about your ideas of the Korean draft. Korea doesn't need a fat old man in the army, you're completely safe. Whatever you may have served in the past, it's meaningless now. We always think we're tougher in retrospect, we never feel the same way when it's happening right now. 2. You're attacking a character you've made up, which is this feminist woman who wants equal rights but would never go to war. Moreover, it would be feasible to implement drafting women in to the army, but how can you promise equality in the workplace, or other feminist concerns? I think in fairness, you would have to deliver that equality before you could ask them to go to war, if that were really the trade. That's pretty much it. I can't relate to being so attached to identity politics, but I understand that it is extremely important to building friendships and bonds with people. I am too logical to take on identities, so I end up being isolated because I get bored listening to people go to lengths to explain their identity so they can merge with the group, when none of what they say makes real sense. That is actually a flaw in my brain, because it's important to be able to become part of the group, and that is the point you make that I actually agree with. It is good to be a chameleon and act like the majority, and to become a caricature of that majority so that no one can doubt your authenticity. So I understand that the bravado and the outrage and the emphasis on who you are is important, what makes you able to do a job which is after all based in forming bonds with people. Even if you don't do it on purpose. But it's still irrational and petty lol.
I don't agree with this. You shouldn't join a group for the purpose of fitting in, it should be something that you feel is important and you want to join as a result. I do agree that human interaction and such is important and I'm sure there's a group out there for most people.
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This was a disappointing read, but alas, we all have a path to walk.
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Some things that tickled me:
1) I dislike Ben Shapiro and Milo. Ben because he has political views that are completely fucked up and are irreconcilable to me (for instance, he's pro-gun to the hilt, or is a global warming/pollution denier). I dislike Milo because he just doesn't have a political view, he's just a provocateur through-and-through. The reason I latched onto this is because I'm always disappointed when conservative people identify with the most idiotic part of their political bent. And I say this as a guy who leans culturally conservative myself.
2) Women blah blah women. Honestly I think the conflict between the sexes will just sort itself out over time. Some things will change, mostly it will be the same. There will definitely be a thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Ultimately society will be better for it, and the kids are going to be fine.
3) I find it fascinating that as a person who identifies with a culture so far away (geographically) from the one I identify with, that the core tenets are the same. And the culture that bridges us (the North American one) is also the same. Perhaps consider that 'being a man' in your sense is probably an idealized cultural universal. It has nothing to do with your being Korean. Your being Korean is that you boast of drinking lots, eat spicy food, and smell like garlic. Your vision of an idealized man is no different than a 1950's American man or the view of manhood in most of Europe.
Point number 3 is what I'd most like to hear your response one if it ever comes. I would like to hear from you what you think makes an idealized Korean man fundamentally different than a European or American one.
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TLADT24920 Posts
The Ben and Milo thing was odd to me too. As for the man thing, I think that's a general universal thing like you mentioned Thaniri. It's the same thought pattern all over the world, not just a Korean thing imo.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 20 2018 20:16 BigFan wrote:
This was quite an interesting read. I think respecting another's culture is extremely important and it's also ok important that as an individual, you decide and stick to what you want to be. Might add more a bit later on to this.
I think in Europe you have this entire issue right now with recent migrants, but yes, I was trying to address this at a personal level for 'Asian Americans' where they were born there, or, came when they were young, but are neither here or there; but don't really realize it.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 20 2018 21:28 ChillHopSC wrote:
Interesting
Thanks ^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 21 2018 01:15 darkscream wrote:I really appreciated this. I feel bad you had to put all those asterisks at the end but understand why - I think that circles back to the original point about the play and "maleness" feeling under attack (not just white, necessarily). Although, I've always felt individual identity more relevant. Like I do have a bit of canadian patriotism I suppose, but I have no real attachment to my family or cultural identity. And yet reading and understanding this blog I feel like I'd make an alright "old school hot blooded korean man" too. Great read
Thanks, as for the asterisks, I think it's more like I don't want to be drawn into responding when it would be a waste of both our times. People have emotions and for someone who is in the 40's, debating with an emotional 20's isn't going to get anywhere.
I personally think the world would be all better if we old school hot blooded Korean men lol. Cheers.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 21 2018 02:53 Chef wrote:I read the entirety of your post, so gimmie a damn medal I have a few reactions. Don't care that you don't wanna change, going to tell you anyway. 1. It strikes me as completely empty bravado about your ideas of the Korean draft. Korea doesn't need a fat old man in the army, you're completely safe. Whatever you may have served in the past, it's meaningless now. We always think we're tougher in retrospect, we never feel the same way when it's happening right now. 2. You're attacking a character you've made up, which is this feminist woman who wants equal rights but would never go to war. Moreover, it would be feasible to implement drafting women in to the army, but how can you promise equality in the workplace, or other feminist concerns? I think in fairness, you would have to deliver that equality before you could ask them to go to war, if that were really the trade. That's pretty much it. I can't relate to being so attached to identity politics, but I understand that it is extremely important to building friendships and bonds with people. I am too logical to take on identities, so I end up being isolated because I get bored listening to people go to lengths to explain their identity so they can merge with the group, when none of what they say makes real sense. That is actually a flaw in my brain, because it's important to be able to become part of the group, and that is the point you make that I actually agree with. It is good to be a chameleon and act like the majority, and to become a caricature of that majority so that no one can doubt your authenticity. So I understand that the bravado and the outrage and the emphasis on who you are is important, what makes you able to do a job which is after all based in forming bonds with people. Even if you don't do it on purpose. But it's still irrational and petty lol.
Thanks, if I could give you a medal, I would! lol. Tell me and lets talk.
1. It's not a matter if they need me or not, but as I write this I'm in Ilsan, just 29.4km from the DMZ. The point is, if it came, and came suddenly, I would hesitate that if the situation was bad, and I felt I was needed, then I would. And that isn't empty bravado, it's just what it is. It's not about personal courage, it's about responsibility.
2. The character I've made up isn't fictional, it is a topic which is gripping Korea in a stronger way nowadays, but it's always been an issue. But it's not about promises or entitlement, its about responsibility and sacrifice, but it starts with the Army draft. Women may complain that men get 2 years of experience on their resume for time served, and it's unfair when both come into the same entry position; except that the guy is 2 years older because he just served 2 years and the woman isn't. And I would absolutely guarantee you, all men who didn't want to go to the army would rather for go it, than gain 2 years of this kind of work experience. They want equality, but if you're an athlete you're taken out at the prime of your career - unless you win a medal at the Olympics-. It's not a complaint, but like I said, the Korean feminist suffers from wanting it both ways, the army draft isn't an option, its mandatory conscription, and its the fundamental first principle here; without this getting address by the feminist movement in Korea, then all other conversations are really non-starters because it shows they aren't committed to the burden of equality as well. It's not about war, in Korea it's about one's responsibility.
3. To be clear, it was a very unique situation for Korean Americans in my generation X age range from the late 60's to the mid 70's. Korea wasn't a developed country at the time, and we were still called oriental back then, not Asian. Our parents were happy to leave Korea for whatever reason, and for the most part, most of my peers we're all professionals and accomplished because we were second generation immigrants. But, unlike other immigrant communities, most Koreans who came to the US East coast at that specific time were all university educated and so maybe the myth of the model minority was born at that time, but we had no choice but to be as Canadian or American as possible. And its not something most of questioned until we got to university and realized that for whatever we did, it wasn't enough or it we didn't feel whole. Now for most of everyone in the entire world, your own cultural identity is never questioned or even thought about it because it's an implicit part of you like questioning if you're human or not. But having to deal with your cultural identity may not be has hard as a gender or sexuality issue, but there is something so annoying passive aggressive about it. But for me, once I sorted it, I had a lot of personal peace, but also personal empowerment as I could 'operate' at a cultural level. It is what makes Young Jean Lee a good playwright and makes me a great business negotiator, and I think it's from that unique time in history we went through.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 21 2018 03:10 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 02:53 Chef wrote:I read the entirety of your post, so gimmie a damn medal I have a few reactions. Don't care that you don't wanna change, going to tell you anyway. 1. It strikes me as completely empty bravado about your ideas of the Korean draft. Korea doesn't need a fat old man in the army, you're completely safe. Whatever you may have served in the past, it's meaningless now. We always think we're tougher in retrospect, we never feel the same way when it's happening right now. 2. You're attacking a character you've made up, which is this feminist woman who wants equal rights but would never go to war. Moreover, it would be feasible to implement drafting women in to the army, but how can you promise equality in the workplace, or other feminist concerns? I think in fairness, you would have to deliver that equality before you could ask them to go to war, if that were really the trade. That's pretty much it. I can't relate to being so attached to identity politics, but I understand that it is extremely important to building friendships and bonds with people. I am too logical to take on identities, so I end up being isolated because I get bored listening to people go to lengths to explain their identity so they can merge with the group, when none of what they say makes real sense. That is actually a flaw in my brain, because it's important to be able to become part of the group, and that is the point you make that I actually agree with. It is good to be a chameleon and act like the majority, and to become a caricature of that majority so that no one can doubt your authenticity. So I understand that the bravado and the outrage and the emphasis on who you are is important, what makes you able to do a job which is after all based in forming bonds with people. Even if you don't do it on purpose. But it's still irrational and petty lol. I don't agree with this. You shouldn't join a group for the purpose of fitting in, it should be something that you feel is important and you want to join as a result. I do agree that human interaction and such is important and I'm sure there's a group out there for most people.
I concur. The fuck I need to spend my time to fit in with others lol. I need to get me what I need to get. lol. But yes, I actually do love my group of friends and the interesting people I do have a chance to meet. I bought up the cultural aspect more as a means for not facing overt or passive discrimination over that of manipulating the group for a means to an end. The last part is just my personality lol.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 21 2018 04:14 farvacola wrote:
This was a disappointing read, but alas, we all have a path to walk.
Hey thanks for reading it and the comment, at least I have something to reply to. I hate just getting a 1 star from pussies that won't even comment and give it to me straight. Give me 1 star and really rip into the post. Maybe we both learn something.
I think disappointment comes from expectations, and I'm not sure what kind of expectations you have, but if I made my guess only on your one line use of the words 'alas' and 'path to walk,' I'd peg you as a narcissist and I'd never be able to match your expectations anyway. ^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 21 2018 11:17 Thaniri wrote:
Some things that tickled me:
1) I dislike Ben Shapiro and Milo. Ben because he has political views that are completely fucked up and are irreconcilable to me (for instance, he's pro-gun to the hilt, or is a global warming/pollution denier). I dislike Milo because he just doesn't have a political view, he's just a provocateur through-and-through. The reason I latched onto this is because I'm always disappointed when conservative people identify with the most idiotic part of their political bent. And I say this as a guy who leans culturally conservative myself.
2) Women blah blah women. Honestly I think the conflict between the sexes will just sort itself out over time. Some things will change, mostly it will be the same. There will definitely be a thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Ultimately society will be better for it, and the kids are going to be fine.
3) I find it fascinating that as a person who identifies with a culture so far away (geographically) from the one I identify with, that the core tenets are the same. And the culture that bridges us (the North American one) is also the same. Perhaps consider that 'being a man' in your sense is probably an idealized cultural universal. It has nothing to do with your being Korean. Your being Korean is that you boast of drinking lots, eat spicy food, and smell like garlic. Your vision of an idealized man is no different than a 1950's American man or the view of manhood in most of Europe.
Point number 3 is what I'd most like to hear your response one if it ever comes. I would like to hear from you what you think makes an idealized Korean man fundamentally different than a European or American one.
Hey great reply, and as I'm preparing to go to the hospital, I'm using this time to just relax and I love responding to replies like yours.
1. On Ben, I agree, I think some of his views lack maturity, but also some of his views I can see are more historical/macro focused. The only thing I can say about it is I had a social justice prof in my masters program, and he passed away a few years ago, but lived through ww2 as a young professor in Western Europe, and he saw first hand the change in the government of Germany but also Italy etc, and it forever made him bias against a world government, no matter how good it could be, just because it could suddenly be just as bad. I disagree with Ben on some of those points, but really on White Privilege because it's clear he hasn't lived abroad for long periods of time, and that kind of perspective only comes with overseas living. But I still like him, he ain't perfect.
Well with Milo, I did go through his book and I again, for what he is, I like him and while it pains me when he is a bit to graphic with his 'dangerous faggot' stuff, I can respect the role he has craved out for himself and for both Ben and Milo (I know Ben doesn't like Milo), I hope they both - as young men- continue to grow ~ so its a bit different from me because I see them as young men and for me it entertaining while I do find them courageous.
2. I agree. Like I said, I can only speak for myself, I wouldn't impose my ideas on gender on other women, unless those women were my immediate responsibility. But to be honest, if I open the door for lady and she gets mad at me, I'll take the mad over not doing it.
I have 1 single friend who is a girl -lets call her Jane. We lived in the same neighborhood, and met during middle school. She is extremely independent and while she wouldn't classify herself as a feminist, she doesn't need anyone standing up for her, including me. So one day, after university we were walking to a friends place and this large black dog jumps out of nowhere without a collar or leash and has its teeth bared and is barking and growing and is just about 1 meter away from us.
So me being me, I put my fists up and step in front of Jane, but since we were walking side-by-side, she nearly trips backwards as I instinctively move forward to put my body in front of her and since the dog is like a meter away, it basically puts me nearly in front of the dog.
A split second later the owner runs out and says, 'sorry sorry sorry' and grabs the dog. At this point, I'm like 'Thank GOD, I don't have to fight a dog who is going to scar me for life and likely send me to the hospital' and then Jane turns to me and say, 'WTF, you almost made me trip, what is wrong with you';
and I turn to her and say, 'Ok fine fuck you, next time there is rabid dog that jumps out, I won't put myself between us, how about a fucking thank you first and you can bitch at me later.'
Jane realizes what I did and what happened, as it all happened in less than 2 seconds, and she says, ok, thanks, and yes you can still step in front of the next dog if it happens...
3. So get this, in American missionary texts in the late 1800's, Americans (even back then), said of the Korean man's character, is similar to that of an American man and that there was more cultural affinity he felt over that of other Asia nations. I want to say, it's not an idealized version, it is my father, it is me, and it is very similar to any culture which is patriarchal - but what is different between the 1950's American male and the 2018 Korean old school is that the wife has a great deal of power in that she sets the expectation levels of the family and she is the primary keep of the family funds include bills to pay and household investments. This is similar with Japanese families, and so, again, the devil in the details, but a Korean wife with an educated old school Korean husband has a lot of authority because since she sets expectations, the man has to meet them. It's a reason why the Korean countryside has the majority of interracial marriages in Korea because Korean women nowadays don't want to marry farmers.
So when I'm in Texas, or I'm in Switzerland, two places where the public male identity is quite strong, I'm really comfortable and in my happy place. But in terms of differences, I think the ideal of maleness in Korea is not an idea of machoism, but responsibility and you need a level of machoism to do your job, but also you need compassion and intelligence as well. I think in that regards, there is a much bigger burden for old school Korean guys to take on personally. For example, as you know being part of the SCBW community that Progamers where basically popularized first in South Korea, why? Because we don't have a stigma of nerd vs jock. But you may or may not know is that in Korea, everyone is expected to be well rounded and exceptional in as many places you can be. Its not enough to be a nerd or jock, both are not good, you must be both intelligent and athletic, artistic and analytical, charming and calculating and lastly good looking. In the same way, whatever is the expectation of your wife, in whatever area of responsibility, you are forced assigned to do it and not fuck it up. We must be strong men, but we also must be good caring dads. We must bring the bacon home, and we can relax, but if there is something pending then we cannot rest until that is done. For instance, I just flew 15 hours to get home, and we have a 3 hr ski trip to go to as soon as I land. Who is driving the car? I am driving the car. Do I want to drive the car. 50/50, will I drive the car 100%. It boarders on the irrational. If the kids aren't doing well at school, and Mom can't get it through their heads, then I take on tutoring duty. If there is a dispute with the school principle, then I go together with wife to sort it out. So its not just my role, but any role that needs to happen to meet the expectation that is set by my wife.
I think that really is the only difference in terms of the scope is extended to every aspect of the family and the wife sets the expectation. So in the same why, when we do meet other more conservative families in the expat community, we tend to be friends with them and I get my international bromance time.
^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 21 2018 12:06 BigFan wrote:
The Ben and Milo thing was odd to me too. As for the man thing, I think that's a general universal thing like you mentioned Thaniri. It's the same thought pattern all over the world, not just a Korean thing imo.
Yes, its not just a Korean thing, but again, I wanted to relay it in the context of not just being a Korean guy in Korea, but a Korean guy in America and as a identity thing. Like I said, Texas, Zurich or Durban, hey I'm with brothers.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 21 2018 12:59 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 20:16 BigFan wrote:
This was quite an interesting read. I think respecting another's culture is extremely important and it's also ok important that as an individual, you decide and stick to what you want to be. Might add more a bit later on to this. I think in Europe you have this entire issue right now with recent migrants, but yes, I was trying to address this at a personal level for 'Asian Americans' where they were born there, or, came when they were young, but are neither here or there; but don't really realize it.
yep, I've watched and having been reading about the refugee issue. Problem is that people keep making generalizations about a whole race/religion/whathaveyou from their brief encounters, not to say that all refugees are well behaved. I get what you're saying, culture shock, culture acceptance and all that stuff is something that everyone who has moved at least once experiences and it's pretty difficult to adjust too imo.
On July 21 2018 13:24 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 03:10 BigFan wrote:On July 21 2018 02:53 Chef wrote:I read the entirety of your post, so gimmie a damn medal I have a few reactions. Don't care that you don't wanna change, going to tell you anyway. 1. It strikes me as completely empty bravado about your ideas of the Korean draft. Korea doesn't need a fat old man in the army, you're completely safe. Whatever you may have served in the past, it's meaningless now. We always think we're tougher in retrospect, we never feel the same way when it's happening right now. 2. You're attacking a character you've made up, which is this feminist woman who wants equal rights but would never go to war. Moreover, it would be feasible to implement drafting women in to the army, but how can you promise equality in the workplace, or other feminist concerns? I think in fairness, you would have to deliver that equality before you could ask them to go to war, if that were really the trade. That's pretty much it. I can't relate to being so attached to identity politics, but I understand that it is extremely important to building friendships and bonds with people. I am too logical to take on identities, so I end up being isolated because I get bored listening to people go to lengths to explain their identity so they can merge with the group, when none of what they say makes real sense. That is actually a flaw in my brain, because it's important to be able to become part of the group, and that is the point you make that I actually agree with. It is good to be a chameleon and act like the majority, and to become a caricature of that majority so that no one can doubt your authenticity. So I understand that the bravado and the outrage and the emphasis on who you are is important, what makes you able to do a job which is after all based in forming bonds with people. Even if you don't do it on purpose. But it's still irrational and petty lol. I don't agree with this. You shouldn't join a group for the purpose of fitting in, it should be something that you feel is important and you want to join as a result. I do agree that human interaction and such is important and I'm sure there's a group out there for most people. I concur. The fuck I need to spend my time to fit in with others lol. I need to get me what I need to get. lol. But yes, I actually do love my group of friends and the interesting people I do have a chance to meet. I bought up the cultural aspect more as a means for not facing overt or passive discrimination over that of manipulating the group for a means to an end. The last part is just my personality lol.
haha ok.
On July 21 2018 14:23 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 12:06 BigFan wrote:
The Ben and Milo thing was odd to me too. As for the man thing, I think that's a general universal thing like you mentioned Thaniri. It's the same thought pattern all over the world, not just a Korean thing imo. Yes, its not just a Korean thing, but again, I wanted to relay it in the context of not just being a Korean guy in Korea, but a Korean guy in America and as a identity thing. Like I said, Texas, Zurich or Durban, hey I'm with brothers.
ya, I was just making a general statement.
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Norway28520 Posts
I honestly didn't read it all. But I can't help but feel like your argument about feminism is at best incoherent. Seems to me you're trying to jump through a bunch of mental hoops to justify having a political position of 'I don't want gender equality'.
To break it down to you, you're basically saying 'you can't have equality without going to the army. And as a korean non-pussy man, I don't want you to go to the army. So you can't have equality. ' This really isn't a good approach - it's fine if you say 'you can't have equality in area A without also having equality in area B' - but it should be self-evident that you cannot couple this statement with 'and even if you would agree to having equality in area B, then I would deny you that, meaning you would not be entitled to equality in area A'. It's a real catch 22 style argument - you want to avoid making those.
I'm not the most traveled guy in the world, but I've been to south korea twice and like 20 different countries in total. South Korea was BY FAR, no question about it whatsoever, the country with the most ass backwards gender norms. I mean I know it's not comparable to islamic theocracies or whatever, obviously, but there are elements that make every norwegian violently shake their heads in disbelief when I share stories. You seem far, far too dismissive towards korean feminists (even if i accept that a bunch of them are 'crazy') compared to how gender-segregated your society seems to be.
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If I'm going to live somewhere, I am going to respect and interact in that culture as the mainstream culture. If I'm in the US, I'm going to interact as a straight white guy, If I'm China, I'm going to interact as a straight chinese guy, if I'm in a gay bar, I'm going to interact as a gay teddy bear. My point is, the context doesn't define you, I define me, and I do so, not from my own opinion, but from my foundation in have a clear core identity, then, whatever culture I'm part of then I embrace and respect. If I want to be a Korean in America, then I should fuck off back to Korea, asking for respect in another country while trying to make others interact with me as a Korean when the don't even know what that means, is fucking dumb.
I concur. The fuck I need to spend my time to fit in with others lol. I need to get me what I need to get.
I don't see how that follows what you said. You are clearly not a gay teddy bear. Whether it is for manipulation in business or for friendship, whether you know you are doing it or not, whether you maintain some core aspect of yourself or not, you're being a chameleon and that is all I really said. It's all role playing. "Fitting in" is BigFan's words, not mine. I realise those are loaded words that would offend you. I don't think I inaccurately repeated what you said you do. What I'm trying to point out is that some of the things you are fervent about are based in repeating the general, commonly held beliefs of other "old school hot blooded Korean men." If you were 20 year old woman, it would be inadmissible to have these same beliefs, because you would have no friends. And in vice versa, if you held the views of a 20 year old woman as you are now, you would have none of your old school hot blooded Korean friends still talking to you. You are powerfully motivated to have these baseless ideas about men who are pussies or women who are feminazis. Powerfully motivated to think that housework is the wifey's job. Powerfully motivated to call yourself an alpha male even though you are old and fat. And all I'm really saying is what you already said yourself. Obviously you can't say you're trying to fit in because that would not be manly. But you are adapting to the group you're in and affirming its identity, which is the same thing in different words.
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EPT
