EPTthey aint chose 1 thing to a unit htey instant choose everything ... why not choose 1 and look how its after and just change it faster
StarCraft II Balance Update -- November 28, 2017 - Page 10
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
they aint chose 1 thing to a unit htey instant choose everything ... why not choose 1 and look how its after and just change it faster | ||
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franzji
United States580 Posts
On December 04 2017 18:44 Snarosc wrote: On Aligulac I see PvT is 54.3% winrate for Protoss over the last 2 weeks. That's a pretty decent number after such a big design change. Yet what am I seeing ? Terran whine left & right. Guys, 54.3% is pretty much the winrate Terrans have had in this very same matchup since the last big design change that occured in December last year. (With the exception of April 2017) Just look it up, period by period, you'll see. The difference with today's winrate is that we're just in the period of adaptation that occurs after every patch ! 54% winrate for any of the two races right after such a big design change is great, for real. (Especially since we are including in these 54% that obviously broken oracle timing that almost can't be stopped) I know that Terrans were not used to see the matchup being Protoss favored, or at least forgot what it felt like after a year, but seeing all the SC2 forums being filled with at least 2x as much hate and whine as usual is scary. It'll be amusing if the winrate evens out at 50% in the next upcoming periods because of the most recent oracle nerfs. All the terran whiners acting like it is the end of the world when balance wasn't actually a problem lul. PvT has been 44% all damn year. I love this patch. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15829 Posts
But I guess I overestimate the average intelligence of forum users. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
On December 04 2017 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Casual balance is a pretty difficult thing to quantify. Mostly Blizzard doesn't bother with it much since matchmaking will generally level out people's winrates. Prior to the patch (and assuming that the skill of the players of the different races is equal) Zerg was by far the strongest with the average Zerg being mid-plat, Terran was in the middle with the average Terran being mid-gold and Protoss was the weakest with the average Protoss being low-gold. Post-patch Protoss and Terran have basically swapped places at the level of the general populace. Not sure if the assumption that the skill of the players of different races is equal is reasonable post-patch though since newer players attracted by FTP usually choose terran. Either way there's lots of stuff with all races that are easier to do than deal with, so I'd suggest to go for stuff like that such as ranged liberators. Well, this change would be a change aimed at casual balance to begin with. It simply makes the game easier and its effects shouldn't be that large at high levels (although I've seen enough mediocre high templar micro even in top games so this might just be an overall buff). The thing is that in the lategame protoss players can now just group high templars with their entire army, attack move, place a few storms and then literally have perfect micro. The high templars will spread out nicely, making sniping them off or emping a bunch really hard, they wont move forward or move in late, they'll just be there positioned perfectly with just a simple attack move. This is a big deal at levels where the mechanics of a player have a severe inpact on the game. The terran army, which is already generally pretty hard and has a very high skill cap, doesn't have anything this easy. Yes, there are things that are in some sense easier or harder to deal with and all races have some of these, but these high templars are something that happens in standard play. It's at the point where any mediocre player (and I'm not even talking about gold or something, but diamonds and probably even master players) will struggle badly to win a fight versus a maxed out protoss because the protoss will basically micro perfectly while the terran player will probably have some micro flaws. It's infuriating. I've personally always liked to aim for macro oriented playstyles, or when I get an advantage try to play it safe and get more ahead, but at this point if protoss ever gets a sizeable deathball it's becoming really hard to ever win a fight. This is supposed to be a quality of life change, to make the game more enjoyable precisely for diamond players. I'd claim its doing the opposite, it will over time probably reduce the TvP match up into an all in fest because at this skill level the match up is just not playable in the late game. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
So to be fast :
tl:dr : don't even watch aligulac stats (or ladder ones). Watch tournaments, how games play out. Watch every fucking competitive terran on earth not even trying to play bio. Watch Korean ladder. Even the PvT match counted on aligulac atm is mostly mech, not bio, and people come here to use that statistics to speak about the balance of bio TvP... LOL. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
That's normal to discuss (and addressee) balance shortly after a major design patch (mostly well-intended ) | ||
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xelnaga_empire
620 Posts
Innovation, TY, Byun, and Maru are the best Terran players. If 3 of them are struggling against Protoss and the 4th one (Maru) isn't streaming, well, I think Blizzard needs to pay attention to their performance since they are representative of the best Terrans. | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On December 05 2017 01:35 xongnox wrote: Yep, using aligulac stats to consider balance is well know to be stupid bullshit for years. People still does it. Statistics literacy is not a widespread skill... So to be fast :
tl:dr : don't even watch aligulac stats (or ladder ones). Watch tournaments, how games play out. Watch every fucking competitive terran on earth not even trying to play bio. Watch Korean ladder. Even the PvT match counted on aligulac atm is mostly mech, not bio, and people come here to use that statistics to speak about the balance of bio TvP... LOL. Amen! | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
Zerg units that counter mass carrier. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 05 2017 01:18 Jerom wrote: Well, this change would be a change aimed at casual balance to begin with. It simply makes the game easier and its effects shouldn't be that large at high levels (although I've seen enough mediocre high templar micro even in top games so this might just be an overall buff). The thing is that in the lategame protoss players can now just group high templars with their entire army, attack move, place a few storms and then literally have perfect micro. The high templars will spread out nicely, making sniping them off or emping a bunch really hard, they wont move forward or move in late, they'll just be there positioned perfectly with just a simple attack move. This is a big deal at levels where the mechanics of a player have a severe inpact on the game. The terran army, which is already generally pretty hard and has a very high skill cap, doesn't have anything this easy. Yes, there are things that are in some sense easier or harder to deal with and all races have some of these, but these high templars are something that happens in standard play. It's at the point where any mediocre player (and I'm not even talking about gold or something, but diamonds and probably even master players) will struggle badly to win a fight versus a maxed out protoss because the protoss will basically micro perfectly while the terran player will probably have some micro flaws. It's infuriating. I've personally always liked to aim for macro oriented playstyles, or when I get an advantage try to play it safe and get more ahead, but at this point if protoss ever gets a sizeable deathball it's becoming really hard to ever win a fight. This is supposed to be a quality of life change, to make the game more enjoyable precisely for diamond players. I'd claim its doing the opposite, it will over time probably reduce the TvP match up into an all in fest because at this skill level the match up is just not playable in the late game. Have you thought of the possibility that your experience might not be reflective of the general population. On December 05 2017 01:35 xongnox wrote: Yep, using aligulac stats to consider balance is well know to be stupid bullshit for years. People still does it. Statistics literacy is not a widespread skill... So to be fast :
tl:dr : don't even watch aligulac stats (or ladder ones). Watch tournaments, how games play out. Watch every fucking competitive terran on earth not even trying to play bio. Watch Korean ladder. Even the PvT match counted on aligulac atm is mostly mech, not bio, and people come here to use that statistics to speak about the balance of bio TvP... LOL. Aligulac statistics have weaknesses that have to be kept in mind while considering them, but at least they have some objectivity to them unlike anything else. People like to point out the flaws of the statistical methods when they don't agree with the results of the statistics. And I find it ironic that you think that watching a few games here or there through human lenses would give you a more statistically sound view of TvP. Your objections are mostly bullshit (which is surprising since there are a quite a number of legit criticism of aligulac):
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washikie
United States752 Posts
"Just kill them before they get their" With this knowledge bomb clearly you will now understand how late game zvp is a completely fair and balanced situation where protoss is justified in having an easy to control amove army that runs you over for not stopping them from reaching that point. You should have just not allowed them to play very defensively while making an unbeatable army. Your loss is completely fair and just. You were out skilled by there ability to sit in there base and make air units. How could you ever compare to someone who knows how to deffend on four bases while massing a very easy to use amove deathball that crushes evreything in its path. + Show Spoiler + It amuses me that a large number of zerg are complaining about skytoss when for years the answer to zerg late game for Terran has been "kill them before they get their". Why is it that the zerg community is convinced that they must have a superior late game in 100% of situations? Why not do as you have told terrans to do for ages and end the game before protoss get their? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15829 Posts
On December 05 2017 03:47 washikie wrote: Zergs whining about air toss. I will now bestow the knowledge you once bestowed on me when i was but a Terran player: "Just kill them before they get their" With this knowledge bomb clearly you will now understand how late game zvp is a completely fair and balanced situation where protoss is justified in having an easy to control amove army that runs you over for not stopping them from reaching that point. You should have just not allowed them to play very defensively while making an unbeatable army. Your loss is completely fair and just. You were out skilled by there ability to sit in there base and make air units. How could you ever compare to someone who knows how to deffend on four bases while massing a very easy to use amove deathball that crushes evreything in its path. + Show Spoiler + It amuses me that a large number of zerg are complaining about skytoss when for years the answer to zerg late game for Terran has been "kill them before they get their". Why is it that the zerg community is convinced that they must have a superior late game in 100% of situations? Why not do as you have told terrans to do for ages and end the game before protoss get their? No no you got it all wrong  Terran loses in TvZ lategame because they refuse to build high tier units and just want to rally marines across the map all game. If they would adapt their playstyle like Zerg and Protoss do instead of stubbornly doing the same thing every game they'd have no problem at all in lategame /s | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 05 2017 03:56 Charoisaur wrote: No no you got it all wrong Terran loses in TvZ lategame because they refuse to build high tier units and just want to rally marines across the map all game. If they would adapt their playstyle like Zerg and Protoss do instead of stubbornly doing the same thing every game they'd have no problem at all in lategame /s Good guy Blizzard helping terran out by nerfing bio into oblivion. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On December 05 2017 04:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Good guy Blizzard helping terran out by nerfing bio into oblivion. I know someone who have asked to buff mech for age who is kind a responsible of the situation, and as a lot of terran treat him as a hero, i guess you get what you have asked for. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
620 Posts
On December 05 2017 03:16 Psychobabas wrote: All I know is that basically every Terran pro that streams is getting wrecked by protoss. I saw Innovation get destroyed by someprotosses who were 5.5-6k MMR... Pretty crazy stuff. Innovation lost to a 5.2K MMR Protoss about two or three days ago. | ||
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franzji
United States580 Posts
On December 05 2017 05:32 xelnaga_empire wrote: Innovation lost to a 5.2K MMR Protoss about two or three days ago. byun lost to avilo once, what are you trying to say? | ||
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Athenau
568 Posts
On December 05 2017 05:26 Tyrhanius wrote: I know someone who have asked to buff mech for age who is kind a responsible of the situation, and as a lot of terran treat him as a hero, i guess you get what you have asked for. You mean like the zergs that whined for months about a hydra buff and are now complaining that hydra bane is the dominant strategy? | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
The mine Widow mines had 4 uses that were absolutely crucial for terran : - Used with bio, it allowed MMM to manoeuvre around ad dish out much needed splash damage. They allowed bio terran to afford expandable AoE that was as static as tanks or as mineral intensive as hellbats With the reveal nerf, the mines are now unable to "hold a position", or at least delay heavily attempts to charge in. They are now suicide units that die after landing one shot in a fight. - Used as a drop, they could inflict heavy damage and be extremely hard to remove. This means that bio players dropping mines have to spend much more attention to their mine drops and can't occupy a mineral line until detection removes the mine (i'm mentionning this as a nerf, but i'm fine with it since mine drops were cancer) - Used as a mine, they allowed terran to spot runbies when positionned properly, and thin out said runby. Now terran can do this only once. You loose the mine if you do that. - Used as an early defense tool, the fact that it was cloacked, for such an early unit, allowed terran to deflect a LOT of pushes (zergling swaths could get caught in the fire, oracles could be dealt with, protoss cheeses could be countered if they didn't include detection). I'm mentionning all these as nerfs without taking a stance "that's good for the game" or "that's not good for the game". The fact is that the mine was a hugely core unit for terran, that this nerf is massive, and that the role the mine occupied is now vacant, since no buffs remplaced it. The weakening of bio Since bio has been overwhelming since WOL, it seems that with LOTV, blizzard chose to weaken non-supported bio fighting power. First, by weakening the marauder's anti armor firepower (splitting the attacks), which is a huge deal against ultralisks and now thors. Then, by buffing bio counters : the new colossi shred marines (meaning marauders are now extremely vulnerable to buffed stalkers and zealots), the new disruptor and fungal are pretty good too, banelings got +10 HPs, the tank's damage got increased, etc. Finally, units that were usually considered weak against bio now perform decently against it. Hydras higer health allow them to perform nicely against bio, lurkers got an upgrade that makes them decent against bio, and mainly stalkers are now much, much better against bio (especially in the early game). The point i'm trying to make here is that this patch not only did lower bio's fighting power, but aso nerfed the units supporting it (the mine, mainly), but that a history of nerfing bio also has to be taken into account. The raven The raven was pivotal for mech late game, and could be used in early game as a harass, pushing or defense option. Now if you look at the usefullness of raven spells, you'll notice that - the scrambler doesn't have enough range to be reliable (8 range vs 9 range for feedback for exemple) and someone made a post a while ago to prove that against carriers for instance, they didn't bring much. Also the inability to hit bio units make it terrible against zerg, especially when coupled with bio. - the heal drone is not only broken in design (mech needed ressources to maintain its forces, which was a very important thing), but doesn't fit the crucial role of PDD : PDD helped mech from bad positionning, could defend locust, hydra or corruptor fire, and more importantly prevented tempest from just shaving off an entire mech force kiting across the map. The heal drone is a MASSIVE nerf to the raven. - the anti armor missile is bad. The role of the seeker was mainly to help terran blast enemy air superiority fighters (vikings, corrutors, void rays) and fragile/slow targets (broodlords, typically), mainly to cope for the lack of power of late game terran anti air (I'll get to this later). The anti armor missiles doesn't fit this role by any mean. Once again, the only reliable late game mech option was heavily nerfed, without compensation. The main effect of this nerf is that now tempests are a clear and massive counter to mech as a playstyle (due to the lack of PDD), zerg infestor corruptors The overall lack of mech/late game terran anti air The nerf of the raven caused the viking to be exposed as the terrible anti air unit it is : - 125 hp for 75 gaz (on of the lowest HP per gaz ratio in the game) - no native armor, but still gets an armored tag - low rate of fire - dies to every other enemy air superiority fighter - very suceptible to AoE and AoE spells - poor manoeuvrability => and the most important part : irrelevant range. Corruptors, with their new speed, high HP and high armor, can close in and kill the vikings, making the use of the anti armor missile or mines suicidary. With 8 range, queens positionned under BLs can shoot at vikings. Carriers have 8 range, but the interceptor have a 14 leash range, meaning they can get out of the viking's range and force them to run into storms. Tempest have 15 range, and they win against vikings in equal population numbers. Now while the terran air superiority fighter doesn't perform well, one has to consider that both the cyclone and the thor are also pretty bad anti air options : - the cyclone needs to lock maually, deals relatively low damage even with the upgrade, and has a 4 second cooldown preventing it from consistently dishing out damage. - the thor is clumsy, can't fight tempests or broodlords in sufficient numbers because they're so big (few thors firing at the same time), and are overall not a massable/reliable anti air unit (good against vikings, banshees and mutalisks, decent against phenixes, bad against void rays, liberators, battlecruisers, tempests, carriers). - the liberator : just a silly anti air unit. Low range, not great HP compared to its cost, armored tag, low damage that underperforms against armor. Conclusion and propositions Terran got huge nerfs to very key aspects of the race with no compensation : - the mine simply got gutted - bio's counters got buffed, indirectly nerfing the composition. - the raven is not assuming the role it needs to perform - terran mech anti air sucks, meaning that bio's late game anti air sucks too Now the most important part is the huge lack of compensation. The only true compensation is for bio, with the ghost now being much more viable, which is awesome. Please note that i'm not taking a side in the matter : i actually think the mine was overwhelming in TvP and shifting power away from it towards other units is a good idea. However, the compensations are hugely lacking. To solve this, here's what i'd propose. - Mine Either keep the mine as it is (reveal when reloading) and the drilling claws upgrade at 75/75, but lower its damage to a flat 100 (+25 vs shield) primary damage and 40 (+15 vs shield) splash damage, lower its cost to 50/25/1 population and reduce its building time from 29 to 18 or 21 seconds. Either revert the mine to pre-4.0 (no reveal) and the drilling claws buff (back to 150/150), but make it unable to target workers. The main issue with the mine was that dropping mines into mineral lines and leaving them in a mineral line was too easy to perform and too hard to defend. - Raven Bring the scrambler's missile range to 9, make it able to target bio units (but have the ultra be immune to it because of its passive). Take the meddrone out of the game, and bring back the PDD. Make the anti armor missile better at dealing with clumped enemy air units. For instance, make it faster hitting, or bring its cost down to 100 energy, or change the effect to "enemies hit take 30% more damage" instead of having an effect on armor. This would make the raven better at its job without being as overwhelming as it was before. But some of its anti air power needs to be shifted towards the viking. - Viking When you compare the viking to the corruptor, it's easy to see where's the problem. 4 range doesn't change that the corruptor is much faster, much sturdier (2 native armor !), hits capital ships like a truck, and can blast buildings. Terran sorely needs a decent air superiority fighter that can actually fight and not constantly run away or die to AoE/AoE spells. The description of the viking says "durable", which is a lie (125 HP, 0 native armor, armored tag) : i'd suggest to make the viking much more sturdy. Give it 25 health (from 125 to 150) and 1 native armor to allow it to survive to AoE. The lack of seeker and turret on the raven needs a shift in power towards the viking. - Cyclone The cyclone can't find a role. It's too expensive to be a general purpose mech footman, its anti air weapon is too weak and unreliable to be a good anti air unit, and its anti ground unit has no micro potential and is too unreliable to make it a good anti ground damage dealer. I'd suggest for the cyclone to be a versatile mech footman, being able to cope for the mech units hyper-specialization. Therefore i'd suggest three simple changes : => The anti ground weapon can also shoot at air units. => The lock deals 150 damage in 10 seconds, can be casted on ground and air units, 4 seconds cooldown, but with a lowered max range (12, from the previous 15 range) => a 75/75 upgrade from the factory's tech lab can bring the lock damage to 150(+150 vs armored). This would differenciate a very static cyclone autoattack that only works when the cyclone is being charged into because it requires for the cyclone to stand still from a multi purpose lock with moderate damage that can allow the cyclone to chase or move around. - Thor With the viking performing its job as an anti air fighter (meaning it can survive the fight), and the cyclone being able to defend them, the thor needs its anti air to fit the much needed role of anti capital ships fighter. And actually, the thor does a decent job at fighting capital ships with the high impact weapon, but is limited by its clumsiness. The thors are big and slow and therefore can't fire all at once, but tempests and broodlords can stack on top of each other and kite : and since they all have a 10 range, thors can't ever fight those ships properly. There are two options to fix that : => either bring the thor's movespeed up to the unsieged tank's one, to allow it to position itself properly and "chase" kiting tempests or broodlords => either bring the high impact's payload range to 11 or 12 (i think the first one would make much more sense) | ||
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FanaticCZ
Czech Republic287 Posts
On December 05 2017 08:51 JackONeill wrote: Terran got huge nerfs to very key aspects of the race with no compensation : - the mine simply got gutted - bio's counters got buffed, indirectly nerfing the composition. - the raven is not assuming the role it needs to perform - terran mech anti air sucks, meaning that bio's late game anti air sucks too Spot on | ||
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