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On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that.
Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that.
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On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that.
Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ.
In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era.
Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first. Tbh, the TvZ meta in the first half of 2017 was amazing, before hydras came along. I wonder if the game might just be better served by nerfing hydras anyway and then figuring out what buff to replace them.
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On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that. Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ. In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first.
I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers.
Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air?
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On December 04 2017 06:16 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that. Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ. In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first. I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers. Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air?
Hydras are basically Zerg Marines at this point. Except no Terran is still using Marines, and every Zerg is still using Hydras.
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On December 04 2017 06:18 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:16 jpg06051992 wrote:On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that. Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ. In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first. I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers. Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air? Hydras are basically Zerg Marines at this point. Except no Terran is still using Marines, and every Zerg is still using Hydras.
Yea I'd mostly agree with this, but they for some reason still get wrecked by Protoss air and they are kinda of OP vs. Protoss ground, why not just switch a bit of the strength at this point. With Lurkers it's not like Protoss is overpowered vs. Zerg at this point in terms of mid/late game units that can halt death pushes.
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On December 04 2017 06:21 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:18 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:16 jpg06051992 wrote:On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that. Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ. In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first. I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers. Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air? Hydras are basically Zerg Marines at this point. Except no Terran is still using Marines, and every Zerg is still using Hydras. Yea I'd mostly agree with this, but they for some reason still get wrecked by Protoss air and they are kinda of OP vs. Protoss ground, why not just switch a bit of the strength at this point. With Lurkers it's not like Protoss is overpowered vs. Zerg at this point in terms of mid/late game units that can halt death pushes.
That's actually a pretty good idea. Just split hydra attack into a ground and air version, and nerf ground while buffing air. So hydras will be fine in ZvP and gone from ZvT, as it should be. Could throw in a muta buff or something if Zerg starts suffering in ZvT.
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On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote: As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era.
Yeah at this moment the game was fantastic, 50% of time bunker rush, all zerg dying vs a simple hellion/banshee pressure, TvZ must have been like 70% winrate... glorious time...
99% of your "ideas" are just pure whine you try to hidd behind "balance suggestions".
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On December 04 2017 06:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:21 jpg06051992 wrote:On December 04 2017 06:18 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:16 jpg06051992 wrote:On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that. Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ. In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first. I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers. Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air? Hydras are basically Zerg Marines at this point. Except no Terran is still using Marines, and every Zerg is still using Hydras. Yea I'd mostly agree with this, but they for some reason still get wrecked by Protoss air and they are kinda of OP vs. Protoss ground, why not just switch a bit of the strength at this point. With Lurkers it's not like Protoss is overpowered vs. Zerg at this point in terms of mid/late game units that can halt death pushes. That's actually a pretty good idea. Just split hydra attack into a ground and air version, and nerf ground while buffing air. So hydras will be fine in ZvP and gone from ZvT, as it should be. Could throw in a muta buff or something if Zerg starts suffering in ZvT.
It's still a nerf against chargelot based stuff in ZvP. It would probably mean that zerg would have to diversify their composition in ZvP, which while a good idea in principle might cause balance issues. I don't think a muta buff is as important as a thor nerf for ZvT.
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On December 04 2017 06:48 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote: As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Yeah at this moment the game was fantastic, 50% of time bunker rush, all zerg dying vs a simple hellion/banshee pressure, TvZ must have been like 70% winrate... glorious time... 99% of your "ideas" are just pure whine you try to hidd behind "balance suggestions".
From somebody as biased towards Zerg as you are, I view that as the highest of compliments. Not to mention hilariously hypocritical.
Thank you.
Normally I'd point out that you completely misunderstood my point (small change = big effect) and that the actual state of game balance had nothing to do with it, but in your case actual logic would be wasted.
On December 04 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:36 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:21 jpg06051992 wrote:On December 04 2017 06:18 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:16 jpg06051992 wrote:On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game. What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential. I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that. Weak bio in TvZ is a design concern? I beg to differ. In fact, I would argue that a single change could instantly return bio to the TvZ meta. That being, reduce Queen AA range back to 7. It is the inability to prevent Zerg from easily getting to lategame that killed bio in the MU. As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Either that, or reduce hydra health back to 80. But this change would have some major side effects in ZvP, so I would prefer the first. I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers. Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air? Hydras are basically Zerg Marines at this point. Except no Terran is still using Marines, and every Zerg is still using Hydras. Yea I'd mostly agree with this, but they for some reason still get wrecked by Protoss air and they are kinda of OP vs. Protoss ground, why not just switch a bit of the strength at this point. With Lurkers it's not like Protoss is overpowered vs. Zerg at this point in terms of mid/late game units that can halt death pushes. That's actually a pretty good idea. Just split hydra attack into a ground and air version, and nerf ground while buffing air. So hydras will be fine in ZvP and gone from ZvT, as it should be. Could throw in a muta buff or something if Zerg starts suffering in ZvT. It's still a nerf against chargelot based stuff in ZvP. It would probably mean that zerg would have to diversify their composition in ZvP, which while a good idea in principle might cause balance issues. I don't think a muta buff is as important as a thor nerf for ZvT.
Reverting the armor buff for Thors would probably work just as well, assuming people don't mind bio becoming the dominant form of TvZ.
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On December 04 2017 06:54 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:48 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote: As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Yeah at this moment the game was fantastic, 50% of time bunker rush, all zerg dying vs a simple hellion/banshee pressure, TvZ must have been like 70% winrate... glorious time... 99% of your "ideas" are just pure whine you try to hidd behind "balance suggestions". From somebody as biased towards Zerg as you are, I view that as the highest of compliments. Not much mention hilariously hypocritical. Thank you. Normally I'd point out that you completely misunderstood my point (small change = big effect) and that the actual game balance had nothing to do with it, but in your case such logic would be wasted anyhow.
You can play the arrogant dude who is smater than everyone else but your posts are like the 10 whine posts a day terran do each day for 2-3 years.
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On December 04 2017 07:09 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 06:54 pvsnp wrote:On December 04 2017 06:48 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote: As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era. Yeah at this moment the game was fantastic, 50% of time bunker rush, all zerg dying vs a simple hellion/banshee pressure, TvZ must have been like 70% winrate... glorious time... 99% of your "ideas" are just pure whine you try to hidd behind "balance suggestions". From somebody as biased towards Zerg as you are, I view that as the highest of compliments. Not much mention hilariously hypocritical. Thank you. Normally I'd point out that you completely misunderstood my point (small change = big effect) and that the actual game balance had nothing to do with it, but in your case such logic would be wasted anyhow. You can play the arrogant dude who is smater than everyone else but your posts are like the 10 whine posts a day terran do each day for 2-3 years.
".....2-3 years"
............
............
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8XAK8a6.png)
Please forgive me if I treat everything that comes out of your mouth as total bullshit.
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Actually wait, your wording is ambiguous. Are you saying that Terran has been whining for 2-3 years? Not me personally?
And if that is the case, did none of the Terrans whine before 2014 or something? BL/Infestor was loved by all Terrans?
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA never happened?
I'm trying to determine what exactly you meant. Does "terran do" mean "Terrans have done" or "Terran does," or something else entirely? Was "like" intended for emphasis or for simile?
On second thought, I'm probably thinking too hard about this.
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Why did they nerf the ravens at least bring back the turrets...omg
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On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.
Some of the more reasonable suggestions I've seen:
1. Reduce chrono to 50-75% and extend duration accordingly. So it keeps macro strength while nerfing cheese/timings.
2. Reduce stalkers' bonus against armored units. So they don't counter their own counters.
3. Increase SB cost to 100/25. So they can't be massed as easily.
What are you basing the idea that Protoss is the strongest on? Because according to aligulac, Zerg is by far the strongest. None of the match ups are currently past Blizzard's imbalanced line, but the closest is ZvP.
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On December 04 2017 07:44 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.
Some of the more reasonable suggestions I've seen:
1. Reduce chrono to 50-75% and extend duration accordingly. So it keeps macro strength while nerfing cheese/timings.
2. Reduce stalkers' bonus against armored units. So they don't counter their own counters.
3. Increase SB cost to 100/25. So they can't be massed as easily.
What are you basing the idea that Protoss is the strongest on? Because according to aligulac, Zerg is by far the strongest. None of the match ups are currently past Blizzard's imbalanced line, but the closest is ZvP.
From what the pros have said:
1. Protoss is shitting all over Terran right now.
2. Zerg can't stop Skytoss.
Afaik Zerg isn't having a ton of trouble with Protoss before the lategame, but you'll notice I did include a parenthetical "lategame" in that inequality.
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I feel like for diamond scrubs (and worse) the high templar change is the biggest problem in TvP. It's incredibly easy for protoss to have close to perfect micro right now. If they just attack move and storm with some high templars, the protoss is doing a really good job in a fight for diamond standards. At the moment I don't even know how I can deal with this because I'm nowhere near skilled enough to actually take a fight well enough in the lategame to compete with that.
It feels like at my level (im diamond 3 atm) TvP is basically unplayable in the lategame. I know the balance really matters at high level but this specific high templar change just targets the midtier levels with zero compensation for terran. Before this change, protoss players would have to group their high templars seperately and then lose a few maybe do to mispositioning or mismicro or being generally overwhelmed, while right now they're automatically nice and split between the army without the toss putting in any effort. This is a ridiculous state of the game for all (semi) casual terrans. Basically I have to all in right now or I will just lose in the lategame. I know theoretically I should just get good, but I'm not capable of playing that much and I don't seem to be very talented. It'd just be great if I could actually play lategame against protoss too.
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On December 04 2017 09:48 Jerom wrote:
I feel like for diamond scrubs (and worse) the high templar change is the biggest problem in TvP. It's incredibly easy for protoss to have close to perfect micro right now. If they just attack move and storm with some high templars, the protoss is doing a really good job in a fight for diamond standards. At the moment I don't even know how I can deal with this because I'm nowhere near skilled enough to actually take a fight well enough in the lategame to compete with that.
It feels like at my level (im diamond 3 atm) TvP is basically unplayable in the lategame. I know the balance really matters at high level but this specific high templar change just targets the midtier levels with zero compensation for terran. Before this change, protoss players would have to group their high templars seperately and then lose a few maybe do to mispositioning or mismicro or being generally overwhelmed, while right now they're automatically nice and split between the army without the toss putting in any effort. This is a ridiculous state of the game for all (semi) casual terrans. Basically I have to all in right now or I will just lose in the lategame. I know theoretically I should just get good, but I'm not capable of playing that much and I don't seem to be very talented. It'd just be great if I could actually play lategame against protoss too.
Casual balance is a pretty difficult thing to quantify. Mostly Blizzard doesn't bother with it much since matchmaking will generally level out people's winrates. Prior to the patch (and assuming that the skill of the players of the different races is equal) Zerg was by far the strongest with the average Zerg being mid-plat, Terran was in the middle with the average Terran being mid-gold and Protoss was the weakest with the average Protoss being low-gold. Post-patch Protoss and Terran have basically swapped places at the level of the general populace. Not sure if the assumption that the skill of the players of different races is equal is reasonable post-patch though since newer players attracted by FTP usually choose terran.
Either way there's lots of stuff with all races that are easier to do than deal with, so I'd suggest to go for stuff like that such as ranged liberators.
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On December 04 2017 09:48 Jerom wrote:
I feel like for diamond scrubs (and worse) the high templar change is the biggest problem in TvP. It's incredibly easy for protoss to have close to perfect micro right now. If they just attack move and storm with some high templars, the protoss is doing a really good job in a fight for diamond standards. At the moment I don't even know how I can deal with this because I'm nowhere near skilled enough to actually take a fight well enough in the lategame to compete with that.
It feels like at my level (im diamond 3 atm) TvP is basically unplayable in the lategame. I know the balance really matters at high level but this specific high templar change just targets the midtier levels with zero compensation for terran. Before this change, protoss players would have to group their high templars seperately and then lose a few maybe do to mispositioning or mismicro or being generally overwhelmed, while right now they're automatically nice and split between the army without the toss putting in any effort. This is a ridiculous state of the game for all (semi) casual terrans. Basically I have to all in right now or I will just lose in the lategame. I know theoretically I should just get good, but I'm not capable of playing that much and I don't seem to be very talented. It'd just be great if I could actually play lategame against protoss too.
I'm at a similar level to you and that how I've almost always played TvP, i normally just go super agro on two base and if that dosent work turtle on liberator range 3 base and harass with some drops until maxed
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Zerg feels stronger in this patch. Protoss can no longer buy time with shooting pylons. Lurkers can hold locations and help dealing with storm without disruptors blowing them up for free.
Good micro vs widowmines is very rewarding as you can clean them right away and terran can no longer kill drones for free with ravens.
Haven't seen much of mech, still lame to play against and watch imo. Most fun i can get from it is massing SH.
I think people are exagerating too much about "units being useless now".
As usual terran players provide us with lots of enterteinment. They ask Blizzard to buff mech patch after patch after patch, Blizzard buffs mech, and then they complain it got stronger than bio. Such memers.
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On Aligulac I see PvT is 54.3% winrate for Protoss over the last 2 weeks. That's a pretty decent number after such a big design change.
Yet what am I seeing ? Terran whine left & right.
Guys, 54.3% is pretty much the winrate Terrans have had in this very same matchup since the last big design change that occured in December last year. (With the exception of April 2017) Just look it up, period by period, you'll see.
The difference with today's winrate is that we're just in the period of adaptation that occurs after every patch ! 54% winrate for any of the two races right after such a big design change is great, for real. (Especially since we are including in these 54% that obviously broken oracle timing that almost can't be stopped)
I know that Terrans were not used to see the matchup being Protoss favored, or at least forgot what it felt like after a year, but seeing all the SC2 forums being filled with at least 2x as much hate and whine as usual is scary.
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EPT
