|
On December 02 2017 18:52 hiroshOne wrote:
Reverting Marauder to one attack, which is a great buff for bio, will mean they must revert Ultralisk nerf. The new Marauder would wreck Ultras even with max armour upgrades. It would be back to shitty unit like it was before LOTV.
yeah this seems reasonable even with 8armor Ultras the Marauder will deal 3 more dmg per shot than now.
|
buff marauders, only mineral mine, it's obviously things.
|
On December 02 2017 21:43 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 18:52 hiroshOne wrote:
Reverting Marauder to one attack, which is a great buff for bio, will mean they must revert Ultralisk nerf. The new Marauder would wreck Ultras even with max armour upgrades. It would be back to shitty unit like it was before LOTV. yeah this seems reasonable even with 8armor Ultras the Marauder will deal 3 more dmg per shot than now.
but is the overall marine +maurder bio ball dps higher or lower? marines go back to doing 1 dmg a hit vs 8 armor ultras. Idk if having 1 attack marauder vs 8 Armour ultra is better or worse than it is now.
|
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.
It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game.
|
On December 03 2017 03:45 MockHamill wrote:
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.
It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game.
that could work But I would prefer to see some kind of bio midgame buffs, I think that not only would this be the right buff for terran but I'm hoping that we could get tvz back to the interesting midgame we used to have. Right now the bio vs ling bane hydra midgame is very stale, maybe terran try's to threaten a drop or clear a little creep but for the most part lingbane hydra is so strong defensively in the midgame that top terrans cant find any holes to do meaningful dmg. This is leading to bio vs zerg games all coming down to a pre ultra tank push that outright decides the outcome of the game, I think for the sake of keeping the match up interesting and interactive blizzard needs to bring back midgame interaction, Either bio needs tools that lets it be threatening in the mid game again or terran needs to be stronger in late game so that zerg has to do something in the mid game to be stable latter on. Right now the problem is that for the most part zerg has it both ways vs bio. They are strong in the mid game, and strong in the late game. there are only 2 times in the game that Terran has a meaningful enough advantage that they can push the zerg.
1. Early game 1-1-1 timing attacks to punish greed:
Terrans have helbat timings, banshee hellion pressure, the problem with these kind of builds is that they transition fairly poorly into bio compared to mech. Bio upgrades like stim start very late when opening 1-1-1 and therefore terran MUST do dmg at this time if they want to both go 1-1-1 and play bio since the bio followup from a 1-1-1 takes a very long time to get going.
2. prehive tank pushes with bio:
This is the only other time terran has a window, if terran has a high tank count they can hit a 2-2 timing right as hive finishes. The problem is that every zerg knows that terran has to push at this timing if they are going bio so Its a very predictable attack. Generally when zerg know something is coming 100% of the time they can hold it unless they are already behind. Since zergs right now rarely are behind vs a bio player due to the weakness of 1-1-1 paired with bio this attack is very hold able.
Terran can definitely win games with these type of strategies but they are very one dimensional and that why bio is falling out of favor, against really good zergs terran rarely can win with bio when zerg knows exactly when bio player can push and what units they will have with there push.There is no ambiguity about the second bio timing so zerg just usually has enough to stop it. I think there are 5 solutions to this problem
1. Midgame bio buffs: I'm not sure what would need to be done and how you would do it without breaking other parts of the game but making changes that allow terran to more consistently do meaningful mid game attacks and harass vs ling bane hydra would really improve things. If terran could be consistently threatening like they were before queen range buff and reaper nerfs than midgame would be intersting agian. I wish that something would enable this kind of play again because from both a player and spectator perspective the game is alot more fun when there is consistent meaningful interaction between the players rather than both players clashing once sitting in there base than deciding the game in one big fight.
2. Late game Bio buffs.
In the past Zerg late game strength was more justified. It was very possible as a bio terran to "kill them before they get there." However since Zerg midgame is now stronger than terran midgame I don't see why zerg should also be superior in the late game vs bio. Perhaps Terran should be the one zerg needs to "kill before they get there". If the dynamic of the match up was reversed than we could see consistent interaction the other way, zerg trying to stop terran from reaching an unstoppable late game and terran defending. Zerg should not have it both ways vs bio they should not both be stronger in the midgame and have a superior late game because this leaves Terran with only timing attacks to balance things out. When a match up revolves completely around 2 timings it becomes stagnant and one dimensional. If this aproach was taken far enough it might even be justifiable to buff zerg midgame even harder while buffing terran late game so we get the reveres of how things work now with terran attacking to stop zerg from getting to strong. Maybe a way to do this is to give terran bio very expensive lv 4 attack and armor upgrades that require 3-3 and a fusion core. Imagine a world where once reaching hive and ultras the burden is on the zerg player to do some kind of dmg before terran can get nearly unstoppable 4-4 marine marauder medivac liberator ghost armies some other kind of powerful late game upgrade or late game bio oriented unit buff could also fill this role.
3.zerg scouting nerfs. Another possibility is to nerf zergs ability to scout Terran consistently this would keep the current match up dynamic, which I think most players dont find interesting but at least 1-1-1 timings would be more powerful. If terran had. 1. better tools to deny overlord positioned on ledges and overlord spots. and 2. zerg overlord speed moved to lair tech, than Terran could play very allin styles with a higher % chance of winning vs competent opponents. This would probably balance win rates but I don't think it would be a healthy direction for the game. We don't want the majority of games to be consistently decided by if zerg guesses what cheesy bs Terran is going to do to them. This might at least make zerg play abit safer though which could also improve the midgame situation.
4.revert hydra and baneling buffs this would bring us back to pre 3.0 ballance except that 3 rax reaper and 2-1-1 are worse. At least we might get to see some lbm vs mmm games again. the problem with this is it might be to severe a balance shift in zvp.
5. Acknowledge that bio Is officially a dead/ only for fun style and focus exclusively on balancing mech terran vs zerg. Alot of terran and zerg players will hate this change but this is the path we are on currently. Terran mech is the more valid style and therefore if things continue they way they are going terran mech vs zerg will have to be as balanced as bio vs zerg used to be. Several changes and tweeks will need to be made to make mech strong enough with the raven changes but over time I'm sure blizzard would be able to get mech vs zerg to a good state of balance.
I think for match up health the dev team needs to pick one of these approaches and than balance accordingly so that both sides have a decent shot at wining as it is now bio vs zerg just no longer gives Terran consistent enough opportunities for top tier terrans to use it except as some kind of suprise/map specific plastyle.
|
WESG and GSL qualifiers coming up in a few weeks, hopefully the meta will be stable and balanced by then–one way or another.
|
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.
Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play.
|
On December 03 2017 05:51 Boggyb wrote:
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.
Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play.
This is an interesting idea. A long and expensive upgrade that makes it so that reactors and tech labs can be converted into tech-reactors. This would indeed make the late game production of terran a lot better/easier. All those marine spewing barracks can now make ghost/marauder without adding 4 more barracks with tech labs instead of reactors. 6 liberators at a time can become BC mass production without the gas sink of extra starports.
I like this idea!
|
On December 03 2017 05:51 Boggyb wrote:
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.
Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play.
Fuck no. That's what people said about carriers. If battlecruisers were common currency they'd be as hated if not more hated than skytoss.
On December 03 2017 03:45 MockHamill wrote:
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.
It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game.
As long as you're fine with bio never being seen in TvZ again. Mech would benefit of this many times more than bio would.
|
On December 03 2017 10:39 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 05:51 Boggyb wrote:
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.
Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play. Fuck no. That's what people said about carriers. If battlecruisers were common currency they'd be as hated if not more hated than skytoss. Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 03:45 MockHamill wrote:
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.
It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game. As long as you're fine with bio never being seen in TvZ again. Mech would benefit of this many times more than bio would.
Both of these statements are spot on. The last thing this game needs is for super powerful air units to be easy to produce, as if Skytoss isn't frustrating enough to play against already.
And they did the upgrades merger before, correct me if I'm wrong but I recall mech becoming pretty OP and they reverted the changes.
|
Infestor nerfs are years over due but better late than never
|
Ghost's Steady Targeting will return 100% energy when interrupted.
Smart Servos cost reduced from 150 Minerals / 150 Vespene Gas to 100/100.
Rapid Fire Launchers cost reduced from 150/150 to 75/75.
Ghost cost changed from 200/100 to 150/125.
Drilling Claws cost reduced from 150/150 to 75/75.
I don t see any reason to reduce some upgrades to 75/75 while it will be easier to reduce to 100/100....
It doesn t matter, but it proves balance team is touching mecanics in a blind mode..
|
On December 04 2017 02:26 the_last_terran1 wrote:Show nested quote + Ghost's Steady Targeting will return 100% energy when interrupted.
Smart Servos cost reduced from 150 Minerals / 150 Vespene Gas to 100/100.
Rapid Fire Launchers cost reduced from 150/150 to 75/75.
Ghost cost changed from 200/100 to 150/125.
Drilling Claws cost reduced from 150/150 to 75/75. I don t see any reason to reduce some upgrades to 75/75 while it will be easier to reduce to 100/100.... It doesn t matter, but it proves balance team is touching mecanics in a blind mode..
I don't understand why you are unhappy it's 75/75? Dot you not like widowmine because they cost 75/25 or tanks 150/125? What about roaches and there 75/25 cost? Blizzard made it 75/75 because it's cheaper than 100/100, I think we can deal with costs being in steps of 25 on other things besides units just fine.
|
On December 02 2017 08:34 FanaticCZ wrote:
Ill wait and see what the current changes do with drilling claws being so cheap etc. but i think widow mines should be cheaper if they uncloak after one shot. They will always get killed in a battle now once they shoot. So you are paying quite a lot for a unit that might only snipe a single ling and then die.
Banelings don't cloak and shoot while costing 50/25 each. They will definitely die when hitting an enemy unlike uncloaked widow mine. I don't see why widow mines should be as cheap as banelings or even cheaper.
|
On December 03 2017 12:18 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 10:39 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 03 2017 05:51 Boggyb wrote:
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.
Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play. Fuck no. That's what people said about carriers. If battlecruisers were common currency they'd be as hated if not more hated than skytoss. On December 03 2017 03:45 MockHamill wrote:
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.
It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game. As long as you're fine with bio never being seen in TvZ again. Mech would benefit of this many times more than bio would. Both of these statements are spot on. The last thing this game needs is for super powerful air units to be easy to produce, as if Skytoss isn't frustrating enough to play against already. And they did the upgrades merger before, correct me if I'm wrong but I recall mech becoming pretty OP and they reverted the changes.
Mech wasn't op because of the upgrades.
The patch that merged upgrades happened in late 2013 and mech was still rarely played until mid 2015.
|
On December 03 2017 03:07 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 21:43 MrWayne wrote:On December 02 2017 18:52 hiroshOne wrote:
Reverting Marauder to one attack, which is a great buff for bio, will mean they must revert Ultralisk nerf. The new Marauder would wreck Ultras even with max armour upgrades. It would be back to shitty unit like it was before LOTV. yeah this seems reasonable even with 8armor Ultras the Marauder will deal 3 more dmg per shot than now. but is the overall marine +maurder bio ball dps higher or lower? marines go back to doing 1 dmg a hit vs 8 armor ultras. Idk if having 1 attack marauder vs 8 Armour ultra is better or worse than it is now.
I did some math. I compared the current marine/marauder bio ball vs Ultras with the buffed marauder bio ball vs 8 armor ultra, I also assumed the terran player to produce his bio out of 8 Barracks and always stimming his bio.
when producing out of 4 tech labs and 4 Reactors the new bio ball would have 97% of the current bio balls dps vs ultras.
when producing out of 5 tach labs and 3 Reactors the new bio ball would have 105% ot the current bio balls dps vs ultras.
Also the attack animation of the buffed marauder will be shorter and therefore better to micro.
If you factor in the changes to investors and Ghosts in this patch, bio will be a lot better vs Ultra based compositions than before 4.0
|
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.
Some of the more reasonable suggestions I've seen:
1. Reduce chrono to 50-75% and extend duration accordingly. So it keeps macro strength while nerfing cheese/timings.
2. Reduce stalkers' bonus against armored units. So they don't counter their own counters.
3. Increase SB cost to 100/25. So they can't be massed as easily.
|
On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.
It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game.
|
On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.
My point is not that TvZ favors Zerg, i actually think T Mech has an edge over Zerg right now, I want bio to become the standard composition vs Zerg again.
|
On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game.
What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough. I think it is useful for conveying the point though.
That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential.
I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that. Changes to the Terran meta are essentially limited to the boolean "bio" or "mech" so when the meta is favored against them, the Terran coping strategy is to basically take a beating until Blizzard finally notices and doles out some buffs.
On December 04 2017 05:44 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:
P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z
Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance. My point is not that TvZ favors Zerg, i actually think T Mech has an edge over Zerg right now, I want bio to become the standard composition vs Zerg again.
While I too would love to see bio make a comeback, I am skeptical of Blizzard's approach to the whole bio-mech balancing act. They've tried so hard to make mech viable and the only real result has been the death of bio.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
