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First on the balance -
I like the infestor nerf for Tvz - it's a step in the right direction to make bio viable again (may not be enough).
For those of you saying bio is overpowered - think of how ridiculous you sound.
Clearly bio play has the highest mechanical skill ceiling for Terran - and you have the players with the best mechanics in the world abandoning it - why do you think that is? If it's not under powered - why are the top koreans - the individuals who have the best tools to exploit its skill ceiling - not using it? They don't like winning? I'd honestly like to hear a non troll answer to this.
On Protoss -
The stalker change (which I puked @ it's inception) needs to go. Please stop before you begin with "it's not a buff they shoot slower now" bullshit - everyone who plays the game at high level knows stalkers don't a move into a fight - they kite (which they can do theoretically forever vs. marines without stim - and with blink - with stim). It's hilarious in an infuriating way to deal with 2 stalkers at your nat if they get there before a bunker is up. Secondly - it now takes too few of them to 1 shot a liberator.
The disrupter - from what I can tell - the only real bullshit thing here is the fact that it is now retardedly easy to micro. I'll be honest - the lotv one actually posed a difficult micro mechanic for Protoss - which I thought was a step in the right direction - you hear Protoss players complaining (and rightfully so imo) that their units don't have a high enough micro skill ceiling - so why did Blizz decide to turn it into another "brotoss" unit?
On chrono - tbh I don't know how "broken" it is - there was a "non broken" era of Tvp with a similar chrono - you were always going to be behind on upgrades - your tech would be slower etc - but that didn't mean you had no way to win.
On the patch! Is it f*#$*#%$*ing live on NA yet or what? I keep hearing we're on day 2 we can't tell yet yadayada etc but my game has not patched since 11/21 - puls help!
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Russian Federation205 Posts
Nerf chrono = protoss cant play economically even with other races , so i think need leave chrono , but nerf stalkers .
Stalker attack speed reduce attack speed , from 1.51 to 2.11.
Make upgrade in twilight concuil Adept glaives , both attack-speed increasing for stalkers and adepts . So stalkers will back their 1.51 after upgrade . ( So stalkers will not be too abused in beginning , but save their power in late game )
Disruptor im fine if will be even remooved from game , however i think the best nerf would be raise cost , to 250-200 for example ,so it will be only late-game unit which will help protoss to fight vs hardcore bio+liberators+ghosts , but will not abused in any match-ups on early stage
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On December 02 2017 01:25 DomeGetta wrote:
First on the balance -
I like the infestor nerf for Tvz - it's a step in the right direction to make bio viable again (may not be enough).
For those of you saying bio is overpowered - think of how ridiculous you sound.
Clearly bio play has the highest mechanical skill ceiling for Terran - and you have the players with the best mechanics in the world abandoning it - why do you think that is? If it's not under powered - why are the top koreans - the individuals who have the best tools to exploit its skill ceiling - not using it? They don't like winning? I'd honestly like to hear a non troll answer to this.
You do realize that there hasn't been many pro games where the terran lost to zerg with bio bc of borrowed infestors. What i see is that terran have options to use mech or bio and they use either. Bio has been shut down bc of hydras/ling/bling.
Good example is Rogue vs Innovation series in Blizzon. Innovation used bio to get a game win.
So making changes to infestors ain't going to make bio stronger bc zerg don't depend on infestors borrowed fungal growth to clutch a win, if that's what you are implying.
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On December 02 2017 02:01 Rail_sc2 wrote:
Nerf chrono = protoss cant play economically even with other races , so i think need leave chrono , but nerf stalkers . First can help is reduce attack speed , from 1.51 to 2.01 for beginning . This little nerf can change a lot . Disruptor im fine if will be even remooved from game , however i think the best nerf would be raise cost , to 250-200 for example ,so it will be only late-game unit which will help protoss to fight vs hardcore bio+liberators+ghosts , but will not abused in any match-ups on early stage
I'd be fine with that, but the thing you have to consider is that chronoboost not only helps rushes and cheese play (which, since the stalker has been buffed to idiotic levels is the most noticeable thing), but also makes skytoss switches very oppressive when banking a lot of chronos.
It'd be like if the inject ws changed to spawn 3 larvae immediatly instead of after the delay. Sure, it'd make things like ravager cheeses oppressive, but it'd also allow zerg to spawn corruptors and broodlords once the greater spire is finished which would would be very oppressive late game.
Since the mule has been nerfed at the begining of LOTV and since the inject only spawns 3 larvae, i suppose that having a HOTS-like chrono (20 secs, +50% prod) but nerfed accordingly to 40%.
But frankly the stalker buff seems overwhelming in PvT and PvP, to the point where i think that buffing counters instead of reverting it to its original state (maybe with 11-15 damage instead of 10-14) would be much more of a headache.
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On December 01 2017 23:06 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 21:13 opisska wrote:On December 01 2017 18:39 deacon.frost wrote:On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...
...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice. >< in 4s my roaches about scratched the outer layers of their stalker ball. the area of effect of the spell is larger than even the range of the roaches. not using one chrono is a triviap cost for the ability to save your whole army no matter what So if this is so OP maybe you want to switch to P and show me how it's OP because I can't see it. Right now it sounds to me you're doing it wrong. Maybe a better description would help in understanding what's your problem as the recall doesn't make units immortal & the cooldown is shared via buildings .
I never said that protoss is OP as a whole. I said this one mechanics is absurd and I stand by this opinion. This kind of response doesn't make any sense, I don't wanna play Protoss. Even if it was "OP", the matchmaker will still put me at 50% winrate no matter what, there is no reason to jump races "to win", unless there is blatant imbalance and you are a top pro. The "if you don't like X being strong, switch to that race" logic is awful and you should be ashamed to have used it.
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Remember when widow mines blew themselves up when they went off? That was cool. I wonder what it would take to balance that version of the mine.
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On December 02 2017 02:12 BigRedDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 01:25 DomeGetta wrote:
First on the balance -
I like the infestor nerf for Tvz - it's a step in the right direction to make bio viable again (may not be enough).
For those of you saying bio is overpowered - think of how ridiculous you sound.
Clearly bio play has the highest mechanical skill ceiling for Terran - and you have the players with the best mechanics in the world abandoning it - why do you think that is? If it's not under powered - why are the top koreans - the individuals who have the best tools to exploit its skill ceiling - not using it? They don't like winning? I'd honestly like to hear a non troll answer to this.
You do realize that there hasn't been many pro games where the terran lost to zerg with bio bc of borrowed infestors. What i see is that terran have options to use mech or bio and they use either. Bio has been shut down bc of hydras/ling/bling. Good example is Rogue vs Innovation series in Blizzon. Innovation used bio to get a game win. So making changes to infestors ain't going to make bio stronger bc zerg don't depend on infestors borrowed fungal growth to clutch a win, if that's what you are implying.
Yah I put in there that it might not be enough - but it will definitely help.
The post blizzcon patch made the radius so large that getting your bio hit by a fungal is completely devastating to the fight. They made it "slow" instead of root but that has no effect on whether or not you get hit by speed banes and ultras coming at you - you will be hit and die instantly. The burrow fungal nerf is only a step in getting bio back to a viable place - most likely not the solution - it has basically no effect on mech bc you don't really use fungal vs it.
IMO they should test making ultras stunned by concussion shells again - this would punish the full retard army of pure ultra/ling/bane/corrupter off creep - would force some infestors to balance out the eco of getting that army which right now really has no answer - the ghosts being cheaper will help and the stunned energy coming back as well - but it's still really difficult to get snipes off when lings or broodlings are flooding your ghosts.
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Things is you guys want P nerf for PvT and i get that, even if i think there is also a "figure it out" part to the problem.
But so far since this patch PvZ is really unforgivable atm until i think mb d1 -m3 at least, (as a dia2-3 depending how much i play) and i think plat will get it even worse.
It's certainly acceptable but if nerfs occurs for PvT ,PvZ will be fucking boring.New recall is a big nerf in this match-up. With some diversion, you could easily one shot an hatchery & tp back, now it's another story.
I hope they buff bio in a way or another, since apparently now there is no point to using them in PvZ too, there should be room to this.
And i prefer a straight marine buff , marauder rather than reverting mine. (which is i think, a pure casual design-decision for F2P) or buffing libs.
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On December 02 2017 03:24 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
Things is you guys want P nerf for PvT and i get that, even if i think there is also a "figure it out" part to the problem.
But so far since this patch PvZ is really unforgivable atm until i think mb d1 -m3 at least, (as a dia2-3 depending how much i play) and i think plat will get it even worse.
It's certainly acceptable but if nerfs occurs for PvT ,PvZ will be fucking boring.New recall is a big nerf in this match-up. With some diversion, you could easily one shot an hatchery & tp back, now it's another story.
I hope they buff bio in a way or another, since apparently now there is no point to using them in PvZ too, there should be room to this.
And i prefer a straight marine buff , marauder rather than reverting mine. (which is i think, a pure casual design-decision for F2P) or buffing libs.
LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault.
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On December 02 2017 01:04 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 18:13 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 16:39 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:52 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:27 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:21 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 14:49 Boggyb wrote:On December 01 2017 14:36 youngjiddle wrote:
After this patch I feel the game is in a pretty good spot.
Just ignore half the terran whine, this patch fixes the broken stuff that were actually a problem.
Something I find really ironic is before these two patches, people complained about protoss being too fragile, too technical, too many spells in one army, feeling crappy to play. Yet now people complain it's A-move again. Like make up your mind, I think it is a pretty good balance right now of amove vs micro. What's the reason for this toss hate no matter what?
Something else I don't get, now terrans on reddit want the widow mine change reverted even after people were praising it would nerf game ending moments.
When it comes to these balance discussions if feels like whoever puts forth a valid suggestion first, and claims it to be 100% true, everyone will agree. I hope the balance teams sees through the BS. Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss. Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too. I mean, from an objective POV, Protoss has received: 1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks. 2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow 3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf. PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation. There's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–that was just close to unstoppable. But for the moment, Protoss is absolutely favored. Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching 1. Widow Mine usage post nerf 2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran 3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio 4. timings with the new Chrono Boost So I think they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from any poster. No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads. I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim. It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha. Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing. I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads). Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss? Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now. oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it. I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen. And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable". Nobody whined about imbalance? Please. A year ago, right after 3.8, Protoss was in a similar position as Terran is now and whining the hell out of Bio/Mine/Lib pushes. And under all the whine they had a valid point, just like Terran does now. Not to mention that using past imbalance one way to justify present imbalance another way is bluntly put, petty and pathetic. As for the whole "many, many times...." thing, Aligulac shows exactly one month where the PvT winrates dipped below the Blizzard-sanctioned threshold of +/- 5% and that was immediately after 3.8. So, by "many, many" you apparently mean "once and only once." http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/Guess what 3.8 was? And how is 4.0 similar to 3.8? Gee, I wonder if there might be a connection there. I wonder if the balance team learned something from last year. I guess we will all find out soon enough seeing as the current winrates are beyond the threshold of +/- 5%. Unless the meta shifts drastically, I expect we will see a nerf to Protoss in the next month or so. Completely biased morons (from all races) can be found in amazingly high numbers here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/40568/Bio may or may not be viable, but there's no question that between the WM nerf and all the Protoss buffs, it's significantly weaker than it used to be against Protoss. I don't consider anyone on the battlenet forums to have an IQ of above 70, sooo you're right it's just unbiased bs there for all races there. And no, the Protoss players left did not whine to the same degree, it is pretty obvious. Something else, I love watching phoenix baiting mines and splitting adepts, shutting down drops, and toss being active on the map with phoenix-adept. But look at how much whining adept-phoenix got when toss didn't even have a significant advantage in the matchup. Yet reddit whiners whined adepts were boring to watch and look, they nerfed the strategy (within a month?). Another example, how many Toss pros are known for balance whining compared to the other races. There is no denying who whines the most, haha. My favorite zerg balance whine, after neeb goes 16-2 in a tournament, " I can't help that Zerg is missing something in ZvP" - nerchio 
Not quite sure what your point is about Protoss players whining. Are you saying Protoss players whine less? That seems like an extremely difficult assertion to prove. How do you even measure something like that objectively? Even if you could, how do you know it is not simply a product of fewer posters being Protoss players, or Protoss players staying off the forums, or Protoss players simply being less involved with the community? There are way too many extraneous factors to make a blanket assertion like "Protoss players are less whiny" and expect people to believe you.
With particular regard to Adept/Phoenix, the reason Adepts were nerfed so "quickly" was because they were a major issue in both PvZ and PvT. Zerg had been whining about Adepts for months before Terran joined. The Adept nerf wasn't quick at all from the Zerg perspective, the Terrans joining was just the last straw for Blizzard.
Toss pros balance whining? Well, Stats, Classic, Dear, and Zest, to name a few. About the same as all the others.
In case you haven't realized, my point is that it's an incredibly stupid claim to make that playing Protoss is somehow related to whining. People whine, in SC2 or anything else. Whether these people happen to play Protoss, Zerg, or Terran is irrelevant, and trying to make distinctions thereof is nothing more than petty tribalism. And it doesn't get much more pathetic than trying to use the race people pick to play in a videogame to claim people themselves are superior.
On December 02 2017 04:08 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 03:24 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
Things is you guys want P nerf for PvT and i get that, even if i think there is also a "figure it out" part to the problem.
But so far since this patch PvZ is really unforgivable atm until i think mb d1 -m3 at least, (as a dia2-3 depending how much i play) and i think plat will get it even worse.
It's certainly acceptable but if nerfs occurs for PvT ,PvZ will be fucking boring.New recall is a big nerf in this match-up. With some diversion, you could easily one shot an hatchery & tp back, now it's another story.
I hope they buff bio in a way or another, since apparently now there is no point to using them in PvZ too, there should be room to this.
And i prefer a straight marine buff , marauder rather than reverting mine. (which is i think, a pure casual design-decision for F2P) or buffing libs.
LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault.
While I agree a Marine buff is a terrible idea (would break everything), the overall point is that bio needs a buff. Personally I think just reverting WM might be enough.
Also recall and dropping are hugely different, that's a false equivalence fallacy if I've ever heard one. Drops can be deflected, sniped, feedbacked, etc. They have to be unloaded one unit at a time. Medivacs are units that must be built at a cost, can be killed by enemy units, etc etc. Recall is teleportation. It's a spell that costs energy. The two are nowhere close to each other and I have no idea why anyone would think so.
Map awareness can stop a drop, because Medivacs travel from A to B–they don't teleport. Map awareness does jack shit to stop a recall, because Protoss armies do teleport. Unless by "map awareness" you mean "stay far away from all Protoss bases at all times."
Think of it this way: if both players had maphacks, how effective are drops? Not very, since it's a trivial matter to see them incoming and prepare defenses accordingly. If both players had maphacks, how effective are recalls? Well, both people know the Protoss army is not defending the base, so Terran dives in–and Protoss teleports on top of him. Hence, a false equivalence fallacy.
The Protoss analogue of a Medivac drop is WP harass–and before you start complaining that Medivacs are better, that's what asymmetry means. If you want to complain about Protoss drops being weaker, you better start complaining about Terrans not having blink Stalkers.
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On December 02 2017 05:41 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 01:04 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 18:13 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 16:39 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:52 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:27 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:21 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 14:49 Boggyb wrote:On December 01 2017 14:36 youngjiddle wrote:
After this patch I feel the game is in a pretty good spot.
Just ignore half the terran whine, this patch fixes the broken stuff that were actually a problem.
Something I find really ironic is before these two patches, people complained about protoss being too fragile, too technical, too many spells in one army, feeling crappy to play. Yet now people complain it's A-move again. Like make up your mind, I think it is a pretty good balance right now of amove vs micro. What's the reason for this toss hate no matter what?
Something else I don't get, now terrans on reddit want the widow mine change reverted even after people were praising it would nerf game ending moments.
When it comes to these balance discussions if feels like whoever puts forth a valid suggestion first, and claims it to be 100% true, everyone will agree. I hope the balance teams sees through the BS. Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss. Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too. I mean, from an objective POV, Protoss has received: 1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks. 2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow 3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf. PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation. There's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–that was just close to unstoppable. But for the moment, Protoss is absolutely favored. Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching 1. Widow Mine usage post nerf 2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran 3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio 4. timings with the new Chrono Boost So I think they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from any poster. No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads. I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim. It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha. Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing. I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads). Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss? Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now. oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it. I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen. And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable". Nobody whined about imbalance? Please. A year ago, right after 3.8, Protoss was in a similar position as Terran is now and whining the hell out of Bio/Mine/Lib pushes. And under all the whine they had a valid point, just like Terran does now. Not to mention that using past imbalance one way to justify present imbalance another way is bluntly put, petty and pathetic. As for the whole "many, many times...." thing, Aligulac shows exactly one month where the PvT winrates dipped below the Blizzard-sanctioned threshold of +/- 5% and that was immediately after 3.8. So, by "many, many" you apparently mean "once and only once." http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/Guess what 3.8 was? And how is 4.0 similar to 3.8? Gee, I wonder if there might be a connection there. I wonder if the balance team learned something from last year. I guess we will all find out soon enough seeing as the current winrates are beyond the threshold of +/- 5%. Unless the meta shifts drastically, I expect we will see a nerf to Protoss in the next month or so. Completely biased morons (from all races) can be found in amazingly high numbers here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/40568/Bio may or may not be viable, but there's no question that between the WM nerf and all the Protoss buffs, it's significantly weaker than it used to be against Protoss. I don't consider anyone on the battlenet forums to have an IQ of above 70, sooo you're right it's just unbiased bs there for all races there. And no, the Protoss players left did not whine to the same degree, it is pretty obvious. Something else, I love watching phoenix baiting mines and splitting adepts, shutting down drops, and toss being active on the map with phoenix-adept. But look at how much whining adept-phoenix got when toss didn't even have a significant advantage in the matchup. Yet reddit whiners whined adepts were boring to watch and look, they nerfed the strategy (within a month?). Another example, how many Toss pros are known for balance whining compared to the other races. There is no denying who whines the most, haha. My favorite zerg balance whine, after neeb goes 16-2 in a tournament, " I can't help that Zerg is missing something in ZvP" - nerchio Not quite sure what your point is about Protoss players whining. Are you saying Protoss players whine less? That seems like an extremely difficult assertion to prove. How do you even measure something like that objectively? Even if you could, how do you know it is not simply a product of fewer posters being Protoss players, or Protoss players staying off the forums, or Protoss players simply being less involved with the community? There are way too many extraneous factors to make a blanket assertion like "Protoss players are less whiny" and expect people to believe you. With particular regard to Adept/Phoenix, the reason Adepts were nerfed so "quickly" was because they were a major issue in both PvZ and PvT. Zerg had been whining about Adepts for months before Terran joined. The Adept nerf wasn't quick at all from the Zerg perspective, the Terrans joining was just the last straw for Blizzard. Toss pros balance whining? Well, Stats, Classic, Dear, and Zest, to name a few. About the same as all the others. In case you haven't realized, my point is that it's an incredibly stupid claim to make that playing Protoss is somehow related to whining. People whine, in SC2 or anything else. Whether these people happen to play Protoss, Zerg, or Terran is irrelevant, and trying to make distinctions thereof is nothing more than petty tribalism. Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 04:08 youngjiddle wrote:On December 02 2017 03:24 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
Things is you guys want P nerf for PvT and i get that, even if i think there is also a "figure it out" part to the problem.
But so far since this patch PvZ is really unforgivable atm until i think mb d1 -m3 at least, (as a dia2-3 depending how much i play) and i think plat will get it even worse.
It's certainly acceptable but if nerfs occurs for PvT ,PvZ will be fucking boring.New recall is a big nerf in this match-up. With some diversion, you could easily one shot an hatchery & tp back, now it's another story.
I hope they buff bio in a way or another, since apparently now there is no point to using them in PvZ too, there should be room to this.
And i prefer a straight marine buff , marauder rather than reverting mine. (which is i think, a pure casual design-decision for F2P) or buffing libs.
LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault. While I agree a Marine buff is a terrible idea (would break everything), the overall point is that bio needs a buff. Personally I think just reverting WM might be enough. Also recall and dropping are hugely different, that's a false equivalence fallacy if I've ever heard one. Drops can be deflected, sniped, feedbacked, etc. They have to be unloaded one unit at a time. Medivacs are units that must be built at a cost, can be killed by enemy units, etc etc. Recall is teleportation. It's a spell that costs energy. The two are nowhere close to each other and I have no idea why anyone would think so. The Protoss analogue of a Medivac drop is WP harass.
Nerfing the widow mine has given a breath of fresh air to Protoss openings in PvT, so I can understand why Blizzard is reluctant to just return to the previous status quo. Especially since Protoss openings in PvZ are very limited too.
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On December 02 2017 05:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 05:41 pvsnp wrote:On December 02 2017 01:04 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 18:13 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 16:39 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:52 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:27 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:21 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 14:49 Boggyb wrote:
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Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss. Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too. I mean, from an objective POV, Protoss has received: 1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks. 2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow 3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf. PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation. There's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–that was just close to unstoppable. But for the moment, Protoss is absolutely favored. Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching 1. Widow Mine usage post nerf 2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran 3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio 4. timings with the new Chrono Boost So I think they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from any poster. No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads. I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim. It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha. Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing. I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads). Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss? Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now. oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it. I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen. And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable". Nobody whined about imbalance? Please. A year ago, right after 3.8, Protoss was in a similar position as Terran is now and whining the hell out of Bio/Mine/Lib pushes. And under all the whine they had a valid point, just like Terran does now. Not to mention that using past imbalance one way to justify present imbalance another way is bluntly put, petty and pathetic. As for the whole "many, many times...." thing, Aligulac shows exactly one month where the PvT winrates dipped below the Blizzard-sanctioned threshold of +/- 5% and that was immediately after 3.8. So, by "many, many" you apparently mean "once and only once." http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/Guess what 3.8 was? And how is 4.0 similar to 3.8? Gee, I wonder if there might be a connection there. I wonder if the balance team learned something from last year. I guess we will all find out soon enough seeing as the current winrates are beyond the threshold of +/- 5%. Unless the meta shifts drastically, I expect we will see a nerf to Protoss in the next month or so. Completely biased morons (from all races) can be found in amazingly high numbers here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/40568/Bio may or may not be viable, but there's no question that between the WM nerf and all the Protoss buffs, it's significantly weaker than it used to be against Protoss. I don't consider anyone on the battlenet forums to have an IQ of above 70, sooo you're right it's just unbiased bs there for all races there. And no, the Protoss players left did not whine to the same degree, it is pretty obvious. Something else, I love watching phoenix baiting mines and splitting adepts, shutting down drops, and toss being active on the map with phoenix-adept. But look at how much whining adept-phoenix got when toss didn't even have a significant advantage in the matchup. Yet reddit whiners whined adepts were boring to watch and look, they nerfed the strategy (within a month?). Another example, how many Toss pros are known for balance whining compared to the other races. There is no denying who whines the most, haha. My favorite zerg balance whine, after neeb goes 16-2 in a tournament, " I can't help that Zerg is missing something in ZvP" - nerchio Not quite sure what your point is about Protoss players whining. Are you saying Protoss players whine less? That seems like an extremely difficult assertion to prove. How do you even measure something like that objectively? Even if you could, how do you know it is not simply a product of fewer posters being Protoss players, or Protoss players staying off the forums, or Protoss players simply being less involved with the community? There are way too many extraneous factors to make a blanket assertion like "Protoss players are less whiny" and expect people to believe you. With particular regard to Adept/Phoenix, the reason Adepts were nerfed so "quickly" was because they were a major issue in both PvZ and PvT. Zerg had been whining about Adepts for months before Terran joined. The Adept nerf wasn't quick at all from the Zerg perspective, the Terrans joining was just the last straw for Blizzard. Toss pros balance whining? Well, Stats, Classic, Dear, and Zest, to name a few. About the same as all the others. In case you haven't realized, my point is that it's an incredibly stupid claim to make that playing Protoss is somehow related to whining. People whine, in SC2 or anything else. Whether these people happen to play Protoss, Zerg, or Terran is irrelevant, and trying to make distinctions thereof is nothing more than petty tribalism. On December 02 2017 04:08 youngjiddle wrote:On December 02 2017 03:24 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
Things is you guys want P nerf for PvT and i get that, even if i think there is also a "figure it out" part to the problem.
But so far since this patch PvZ is really unforgivable atm until i think mb d1 -m3 at least, (as a dia2-3 depending how much i play) and i think plat will get it even worse.
It's certainly acceptable but if nerfs occurs for PvT ,PvZ will be fucking boring.New recall is a big nerf in this match-up. With some diversion, you could easily one shot an hatchery & tp back, now it's another story.
I hope they buff bio in a way or another, since apparently now there is no point to using them in PvZ too, there should be room to this.
And i prefer a straight marine buff , marauder rather than reverting mine. (which is i think, a pure casual design-decision for F2P) or buffing libs.
LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault. While I agree a Marine buff is a terrible idea (would break everything), the overall point is that bio needs a buff. Personally I think just reverting WM might be enough. Also recall and dropping are hugely different, that's a false equivalence fallacy if I've ever heard one. Drops can be deflected, sniped, feedbacked, etc. They have to be unloaded one unit at a time. Medivacs are units that must be built at a cost, can be killed by enemy units, etc etc. Recall is teleportation. It's a spell that costs energy. The two are nowhere close to each other and I have no idea why anyone would think so. The Protoss analogue of a Medivac drop is WP harass. Nerfing the widow mine has given a breath of fresh air to Protoss openings in PvT, so I can understand why Blizzard is reluctant to just return to the previous status quo. Especially since Protoss openings in PvZ are very limited too.
That's perfectly understandable, but in that case bio needs a different buff. Perhaps a reduction to Stim research time?
I have no idea what Blizzard will decide on, but I don't doubt they will decide on something unless Terrans manage to come up with some revolutionary new style of TvP. Problem is, the simple math of SC2 earlygame means options are always limited and I for one cannot see a way out for Terran.
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Like many others said, the ghost change is good but the cyclone is still gimicky and the widow mine is a favorite unit to hate by most, i feel like the general game design of a unit shouldnt make a vast amount of people angry...?
1. Remove widow mine from the game
2. Make cyclone auto attack air and remove gimicky lockon with cooldown
3. Make cyclone lay spider mines (yes, spider) with an upgrade
4. Adjust cyclone base stats to balance 2 and 3
5. Profit
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On December 02 2017 04:08 youngjiddle wrote:
LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault.
Yes of course.
In the current situation marauders going back to 1 attack is a possibility.
And i think bio could be straight buffed HP/Attack/armor if it' almost not played in any match up anymore.
For this reason marauders buff is'nt my fav solution, but it is'nt out of the way.
Better than reverting mine revelation which was just counting of hole of detection to completely throw off games, and still count on chance even sometimes at best level if it's not the only thing going on. Way less cool than 3 medivac (300 300 just for them) killing tech.
It's the way low T can take advantage vs low P, and same in PvZ, where flooding is much easier and Z reading is much easier.
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Im all for reverting Marauders double attack back to a single attack. Thats the least that can be done to make bio a little bit better. I do not think thats enough though. Stim cant be changed to a faster research im afraid. That would probably cause a lot of problems in all matchups.
Ill wait and see what the current changes do with drilling claws being so cheap etc. but i think widow mines should be cheaper if they uncloak after one shot. They will always get killed in a battle now once they shoot. So you are paying quite a lot for a unit that might only snipe a single ling and then die.
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I don't think Blizzard can revert the Widow Mine change without reverting the nerf that Oracles just received. Stargate openings are probably not viable in PvT at the moment, so if Widow Mines continue to be cloaked, Protoss players have to open Robo or play with fire. That's absolutely not acceptable.
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3 raxx reaper feels like a good bio opening for TvP
3 reapers > 1 stalker
reapers force the stalkers to stay at home
mass reapers can scout proxies fast and kill proxy pylons
lots of bio infrastructure up early
3 raxx
2nd command center
4th & 5th raxx
3rd command center
factory
yep, very late medivacs, but you get all your techlab upgrades very early
GuMiho was doing this build in HotS with some success. overcharged pylons made it obsolete.
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As someone occasionally reading these balance threads, I am not satisfied with this new update. It was communicated that these changes were planned sometime around the mid of november. In the related thread there were very sensible ponts made about Blizzards suggestions and none of them were considered, now (atleast) 2 weeks later. They just introduced the changes as they planned to from the beginning, not listening properly.
All the changes before have been sensible, but here I think some changes are just coverups of deeper problems.
(Especially talking about triple nerf of the Infestor and early Oracle problem being caused by stacking of the fast&short chrono, which also shows in other areas)
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Reverting Marauder to one attack, which is a great buff for bio, will mean they must revert Ultralisk nerf. Thennew Marauder would wreck Ultras even with max armour upgrades. It would be back to shitty unit like it was before LOTV.
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EPT
