EPTmany ways to go but if just change the numbers...
lower the boost or the duration?
StarCraft II Balance Update -- November 28, 2017 - Page 5
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GothGirlGames
167 Posts
many ways to go but if just change the numbers... lower the boost or the duration? | ||
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nonoes
24 Posts
As Special said: when Terran has 1/1 protoss on double forges is on 3/3 with chronoboost. That's ridiculous. In LOTV Zerg's larva inject and Terran Mule were nerfed and they bring back almost HOTS level chrono to protoss. Do you realize that current chronoboost is weaker than hots' one on anything that you can't chronoboost back to back? That's funny all those terrans arguing about chrono boost efficiency on upgrades considering hots'one was better and nobody ever mentionned how strong it was back in the day. Also changing chronoboost from 100% for 10 sec to 50% for 20 sec won't nerf forges upgrades at all. (it's a good idea to nerf timings tough). i doubt that blizzard will nerf chronoboost ... maybe the spike burst but not the effectiveness over time. | ||
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Shock_sc2
United States5 Posts
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shaun2306
4 Posts
2. toss been buffed to the point it cant be beatable (cough cough toss a move wins without microing ) 3. dts never should have blink 4. skytoss is unbeatable 5. storms need to be nerfed they rek mech and bio so ez whether you spilt or micro good 6. pros even said it terran is unplayable 7. this game is for everyone not just for the pros i play terran as main and i have rekt terrans with zerg and protoss | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On December 01 2017 11:23 Boggyb wrote: Multiple people complaining about DT blink? Is there some new Chrono'd Blink DT Protoss cheese strat terrorizing the ladder these days? no, people who barely play the game are complaining about a non existent problem. but what else is new | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On November 30 2017 07:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote: "Blink DTs make the game more volatile" Are you serious? Most people barely remember that they're in the game. Not exactly a hill I'd choose to die on. There's exactly one blink dt Allin that saw pro level use a handful of times it mostly works only due to surprise. There are many things wrong with ballance right now but blink Dts are not one of them. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 01 2017 13:21 washikie wrote: There's exactly one blink dt Allin that saw pro level use a handful of times it mostly works only due to surprise. There are many things wrong with ballance right now but blink Dts are not one of them. Yeah, Protoss is the strongest race right now and could definitely use some nerfs (direct or indirect) but blink DTs are not one of them. If you're going to complain, at least complain about something that is actually imbalanced. I mean, it's not like there's a shortage between the plethora of buffs to Chrono, Batteries, Stalkers, deathballs, Skytoss, etc, etc. Singling out blink DTs right now is just bizarre. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
Just ignore half the terran whine, this patch fixes the broken stuff that were actually a problem. Something I find really ironic is before these two patches, people complained about protoss being too fragile, too technical, too many spells in one army, feeling crappy to play. Yet now people complain it's A-move again. Like make up your mind, I think it is a pretty good balance right now of amove vs micro. What's the reason for this toss hate no matter what? Something else I don't get, now terrans on reddit want the widow mine change reverted even after people were praising it would nerf game ending moments. When it comes to these balance discussions if feels like whoever puts forth a valid suggestion first, and claims it to be 100% true, everyone will agree. I hope the balance teams sees through the BS. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On December 01 2017 14:36 youngjiddle wrote: After this patch I feel the game is in a pretty good spot. Just ignore half the terran whine, this patch fixes the broken stuff that were actually a problem. Something I find really ironic is before these two patches, people complained about protoss being too fragile, too technical, too many spells in one army, feeling crappy to play. Yet now people complain it's A-move again. Like make up your mind, I think it is a pretty good balance right now of amove vs micro. What's the reason for this toss hate no matter what? Something else I don't get, now terrans on reddit want the widow mine change reverted even after people were praising it would nerf game ending moments. When it comes to these balance discussions if feels like whoever puts forth a valid suggestion first, and claims it to be 100% true, everyone will agree. I hope the balance teams sees through the BS. Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On December 01 2017 14:49 Boggyb wrote: Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss. Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 01 2017 15:21 youngjiddle wrote: Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too. I agree that ignoring half the whine is a good first step–there is a lot of pointless whining going on and cutting through the crap reveals the other half of the complaining, the half that deals with actual imbalance in a rational manner. From an objective POV, Protoss has received: 1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks. 2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow 3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf. PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation. When TY and INnoVation are seriously trying to make tanks work against chargelot/immortal/archon, you know Terran has it rough. Of course, Terran suffering is not necessarily a wholly bad thing–I understand full well that one of the side effects of a major design patch is major imbalances, and removing the MSC was inevitably bound to cause some kind of imbalance somewhere–it was just a question of whether Protoss would be way too weak or way too strong with the MSC-replacement. In this case, it turned out to be the latter. Which is fine, since I really do think the game will eventually end up in a better overall state without the MSC–but only after the current imbalances that resulted from the big design patch are fixed. That being the case, there's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–the math simply dictates that a such an early Oracle is nearly impossible to counter effectively without falling behind economically. But for the moment, Protoss is still absolutely favored against Terran and possibly against Zerg. Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching (among others) 1. Widow Mine usage post nerf 2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran 3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio 4. timings with the new Chrono Boost in the last paragraph: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20759616036?page=1 So it's safe to say that they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from anyone. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On December 01 2017 15:27 pvsnp wrote: I mean, from an objective POV, Protoss has received: 1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks. 2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow 3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf. PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation. There's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–that was just close to unstoppable. But for the moment, Protoss is absolutely favored. Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching 1. Widow Mine usage post nerf 2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran 3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio 4. timings with the new Chrono Boost So I think they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from any poster. No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads. I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim. It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 01 2017 15:52 youngjiddle wrote: No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads. I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim. It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha. Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing. I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads). Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss? Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now. | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary407 Posts
but was actually *buffed* against armored in early game? because oracle damage was 15+10 against light (normal damage) and now it is 15+7 against light (spell damage), so an armored unit (queen, spore, hatchery) which usually has 1 base armor, took 14 damage in 4.0 and now it takes 15 damage in 4.0.2. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On December 01 2017 15:57 pvsnp wrote: Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing. I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads). Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss? Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now. oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it. I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen. And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable". | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
Still wondering if widow mines becoming visible after during cooldown ( so basically they can only shot one ) and ravens with their new abilities are really weak and almost useless. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On November 30 2017 19:37 hiroshOne wrote: By buffing BIO production rate u make BIO imba. BIO timing attacks will be unstopabble for Zerg as Terran on 3 bases will never stop attack to even let breathe the Zerg. No. It's not a good idea of balancing this matchup. Indeed BIO seems weakened mostly because of widomine nerf. But production? Nope. How often we have seen Terran having more army supply than Zerg especially after larva nerf. Bio is mineral heavy and it synergizes with mules heavily. Faster production of marines/marauders would be too much Widowmine nerf odly has little impact on current tvz because right now zerg go hydras so Terran must go tanks. Since Terran go tanks instead of mines mines see very little play. If the meta were ling bane muta the mine nerf would be more relevant. No the issue with bio is that ling bane hydra is very strong vs aggression and forces a bio player to turtle and mass tanks. This means that bio tvz is decided by one big fight before hive tech. On some maps it's very difficult to get a decent angle for said fight and thus bio is rather terrible compared to mech, if you must mass siege tanks as Terran you might as well go mech right? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 01 2017 16:39 youngjiddle wrote: oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it. I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen. And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable". Nobody whined about imbalance? Please. A year ago, right after 3.8, Protoss was in a similar position as Terran is now and whining the hell out of Bio/Mine/Lib pushes. And under all the whine they had a valid point, just like Terran does now. Not to mention that using past imbalance one way to justify present imbalance another way is bluntly put, petty and pathetic. As for the whole "many, many times...." thing, Aligulac shows exactly one month where the PvT winrates dipped below the Blizzard-sanctioned threshold of +/- 5% and that was immediately after 3.8. So, by "many, many" you apparently mean "once and only once." http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ Guess what 3.8 was? And how is 4.0 similar to 3.8? Gee, I wonder if there might be a connection there. I wonder if the balance team learned something from last year. I guess we will all find out soon enough seeing as the current winrates are beyond the threshold of +/- 5%. Unless the meta shifts drastically, I expect we will see a nerf to Protoss in the next month or so. Completely biased morons (from all races) can be found in amazingly high numbers here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/40568/ Bio may or may not be viable, but there's no question that between the WM nerf and all the Protoss buffs, it's significantly weaker than it used to be against Protoss. | ||
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