EPTStarCraft II Balance Update -- November 28, 2017 - Page 4
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EEk1TwEEk
Russian Federation170 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
The Infestor Nerf is too much. It really makes no sence especially nerfing Infested Terrans cast range. If they delete burrow funghal casting, they should revert collision and visibility of burrowed Infestors, and make their model smaller- harder to snipe, less cluncky and shit. Look at HT or ghost and Infestor in the same time... With TvP obvious problems it's not the Oracle or buffed Stalkers problem. It's the new chronoboost which is too powerfull as a macroboost and too well rounded. As Terran macroboost gives him more mining, Zerg boosts production this Protoss macro boost can do antyhing from boosting production, economy and upgrades. As Special said: when Terran has 1/1 protoss on double forges is on 3/3 with chronoboost. That's ridiculous. In LOTV Zerg's larva inject and Terran Mule were nerfed and they bring back almost HOTS level chrono to protoss. ShieldBattery nerf is the right move. But still, thye NEED adress chronoboost asap. | ||
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Snakestyle1
43 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
On November 30 2017 16:39 hiroshOne wrote: Bio was ballshit powerful since the beginning of sc2. Most of balance problems were created trying to cpunter bio strengh. BIO ballshit snowballed into more ballshit counters in other races. If they wanted to fix the game they should revert the game to WOL, tone down BIO, balance the game around that and slowly add hots and lotv units. That was a long time ago. Since then they buffed everything T1 not-bio (zelot stalkers adepts ravagers hydras banes etc... ) and nerfed bio (marauder 2x attack scales very bad with upgrades), to the point bio is reputed unplayable today by Koreans Terrans. But it's true bio changed relatively little and nearly everything (P, Z, but also mech) was balanced versus bio (or versus korean terran's bio, to be honest. ) historically. That was a disputable approach, for sure. But bio today sucks hard, so, do you really want to see no terran/only mech in SC2 ? Is avilo really your taste of SC2 ? Btw i still think mech, except TvT, rely on gimmicky but strong openings more than anything, so not so viable when people knows openings and how to counter it, then there are such hardcore counters (vipers, immortals, well placed counter-attacks) witch wreck mech. Buffing bio infrastructure set-up is imo the best way to begin. Because you are not creating a new imba marine, but simply a production a bit less slow and ineffective. Today it's almost ridiculous if you try to 2 bases 3rax +1 bio medivac : Z and P can begin to saturate 3 base while teching as hard as you or more, then in 2 cycles produce an better T1 army (hydra/ling or zelot/stalker blink) before you even go out with medivacs. Even mech can begin by saturating 3 bases then crush your ass if you do this. Mech early production is way better than bio one today. MrWayne, ./56 > agree on nearly everything. Imo mutas are not that bad vs T, but there are just so much better other options (hydras) Btw with no MSC there are a lot more place to some surprise muta harass in ZvP. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
On November 30 2017 19:37 hiroshOne wrote: By buffing BIO production rate u make BIO imba. BIO timing attacks will be unstopabble for Zerg as Terran on 3 bases will never stop attack to even let breathe the Zerg. No. It's not a good idea of balancing this matchup. Indeed BIO seems weakened mostly because of widomine nerf. But production? Nope. How often we have seen Terran having more army supply than Zerg especially after larva nerf. Bio is mineral heavy and it synergizes with mules heavily. Faster production of marines/marauders would be too much -Bio is mostly weak because shit openings/hydras/gateball (new stalker, chrono'ed blink/charge, etc), the mine nerf is not that important in strait-up fights (more impact in defense and harass) -I don't propose to speed up bio production rate all game long, but bio production set-up. For example, if we combine shield and stim in one upgrade, we effectively get a stronger Byun's 2 medivacs stim timing... witch is actually unplayed at hight level because weak as fuck. Hydra follow-up simply killed this opening. Even with this build (actually the fastest stim then shield viable build), by time shield is done, upgraded hydras recks you. -Even with less supply, ling/bane/hydra reck bio atm (this comp is very supply efficient, btw). So the old idea zerg should have way more stuff and eco because inefficient in fight is obsolete imo. (or, more accurately, it's dependent on zerg composition) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
On November 30 2017 20:10 xongnox wrote: -Bio is mostly weak because shit openings/hydras/gateball (new stalker, chrono'ed blink/charge, etc), the mine nerf is not that important in strait-up fights (more impact in defense and harass) -I don't propose to speed up bio production rate all game long, but bio production set-up. For example, if we combine shield and stim in one upgrade, we effectively get a stronger Byun's 2 medivacs stim timing... witch is actually unplayed at hight level because weak as fuck. Hydra follow-up simply killed this opening. Even with this build (actually the fastest stim then shield viable build), by time shield is done, upgraded hydras recks you. -Even with less supply, ling/bane/hydra reck bio atm (this comp is very supply efficient, btw). So the old idea zerg should have way more stuff and eco because inefficient in fight is obsolete imo. (or, more accurately, it's dependent on zerg composition) The shit openings are caused by the mine nerf, at least in TvP. | ||
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kinsky
Germany368 Posts
On November 30 2017 16:39 hiroshOne wrote: Bio was ballshit powerful since the beginning of sc2. Most of balance problems were created trying to cpunter bio strengh. BIO ballshit snowballed into more ballshit counters in other races. If they wanted to fix the game they should revert the game to WOL, tone down BIO, balance the game around that and slowly add hots and lotv units. The Infestor Nerf is too much. It really makes no sence especially nerfing Infested Terrans cast range. If they delete burrow funghal casting, they should revert collision and visibility of burrowed Infestors, and make their model smaller- harder to snipe, less cluncky and shit. Look at HT or ghost and Infestor in the same time... With TvP obvious problems it's not the Oracle or buffed Stalkers problem. It's the new chronoboost which is too powerfull as a macroboost and too well rounded. As Terran macroboost gives him more mining, Zerg boosts production this Protoss macro boost can do antyhing from boosting production, economy and upgrades. As Special said: when Terran has 1/1 protoss on double forges is on 3/3 with chronoboost. That's ridiculous. In LOTV Zerg's larva inject and Terran Mule were nerfed and they bring back almost HOTS level chrono to protoss. ShieldBattery nerf is the right move. But still, thye NEED adress chronoboost asap. What this man says! - regarding chrono i should say. | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On November 30 2017 20:25 Charoisaur wrote: The shit openings are caused by the mine nerf, at least in TvP. The mines Nerf in TvP and the Raven changes in TvZ were huge beats for Bio. I like the new Raven a lot more than the old one but none of the new abilitys help bio in the early/mid game so i don't think a Bio terran will ever build a Raven befor late game. the best harassment option for TvZ befor 4.0, the Auto-Turret, is no longer in the game and Terran needs to weast more scans to deny creep, which is a lot more important for Bio than for mech, because the raven is to costly to make them only for detection. I think they need to compensate that issue somehow. | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
On November 30 2017 20:25 Charoisaur wrote: The shit openings are caused by the mine nerf, at least in TvP. Yeah a bit... but standard Zest's PvT blink/robo->3rd can defend old mines just fine, and you still get an unplayable TvP (just saw TY 170 supply got reck hard by Creator's 150 supply gateball, while defending in perfect position ). Of course speeding up early bio prod will not addresse all the issues in the MU (chrono seems just too good overall, stalker too strong, and chrono'ed upgrades broken ), but it can be a first step. I would agree with you in general to bring back some decent early game terran harass, but except the mine revert i don't see simple ways to do this. (+1 range on banshee to compensate queens/stalkers ? might be too powerful in TvT... Maybe +1 armor on medivacs ? ... ) | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On November 30 2017 03:08 Jacenoob wrote: Yeah, that is a big concern with the Infestor nerf. But on the other hand the Oracle and Shield Battery nerf will help Zerg to get into a better economic position in the late game. . I am really glad about that. Roach Ravager is the most boring playstyle to watch in ZvP and ZvT, I will not miss it. Everything about that playstyle is boring so as long Blizzard finds a fair balance I am glad it got replaced. I disagree roach ravager tvz was more interesting than ling bane hydra. Because hydras shut down drops way better than roach ravager the current tvz bio vs lbh gameplay is very passive and boring might as well just play passive and boring mech since opportunities for harassment are so limited right now against map aware zergs. At least roach ravager had difficulty killing air so there was interaction between the Terran and the Zerg. | ||
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Marfy
4 Posts
But more Terran buffs? Really? The Oracle change is good too Also to whatever Terran is about to Whine at me, look at GSL, SSL, WCS Finals and IEM, Terran is fine git gud | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 01 2017 04:35 Marfy wrote: I think the Infestor changes are good. But more Terran buffs? Really? The Oracle change is good too Also to whatever Terran is about to Whine at me, look at GSL, SSL, WCS Finals and IEM, Terran is fine git gud It's almost like there was a massive design patch that took place after all of those tournaments and completely changed the meta. Nah, who am I kidding. All the races are exactly the same as they were when GSL, SSL, Blizzcon, and IEM took place. What's a Shield Battery? Some old BW building that nobody ever used? | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote: I am as late to the party as ever, but... ...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! I think its important for toss to have recall otherwise protoss can be put in a situation were its impossible to move out without initiating a base trade. Protoss without recall is fairly terrible in base trades recall the wol muta meta? So often this leads protoss to deciding that the best choice is to simply not attack ever since they cant risk a base trade and this leads to very static turtly game play where protoss feels like they cant move out until they have an unbeatable army. I think its fair for protoss to have some kind of tool to deal wtih base trades both zerg and terran have decent tools in base trades zerg has the advantage that they generally have more bases and their armies often move really fast between bases, terran can lift production buildings and command centers they also have pfs to slow down armies, protoss can recall Id say its fair right now but removing recall would just create to many base trade or turtle type games for toss. Now if it was not on a global cooldown it might be to good but with the global cooldown I think its a fairly balanced ability. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote: I am as late to the party as ever, but... ...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! It's not bad. It isn't much of a problem at all for Zerg. It takes 4 seconds to recall out, so you lose everything is you try to recall once you get engaged on. It's a bigger problem for Terran since the recall in takes no time, so it can surprise your drops--you do get some warning from the nexus lighting up, but you still have to react quite quickly. They might have to tweak some of the numbers, but the ability itself is completely ok. It's quite nice with basetrades too. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On November 30 2017 20:10 xongnox wrote: -Bio is mostly weak because shit openings/hydras/gateball (new stalker, chrono'ed blink/charge, etc), the mine nerf is not that important in strait-up fights (more impact in defense and harass) -I don't propose to speed up bio production rate all game long, but bio production set-up. For example, if we combine shield and stim in one upgrade, we effectively get a stronger Byun's 2 medivacs stim timing... witch is actually unplayed at hight level because weak as fuck. Hydra follow-up simply killed this opening. Even with this build (actually the fastest stim then shield viable build), by time shield is done, upgraded hydras recks you. -Even with less supply, ling/bane/hydra reck bio atm (this comp is very supply efficient, btw). So the old idea zerg should have way more stuff and eco because inefficient in fight is obsolete imo. (or, more accurately, it's dependent on zerg composition) yeah go figure that if you nerf aggressive bio openings like 16 mairne drop and 3 rax reaper that bio openings become very one dimensional and predictable. | ||
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