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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...
...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?!
Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice.
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On December 01 2017 11:23 Boggyb wrote:
Multiple people complaining about DT blink? Is there some new Chrono'd Blink DT Protoss cheese strat terrorizing the ladder these days?
There are some builds on the ladder... some dt harass into 2 bases blinkdt/stalker all-in, or the 3 bases low eco aggressive variation... you blink dt on the bio (like adepts), then bio can't move out.... we saw it in a pro games or two.. i think Has and sOs ^^
Even with constant detection it's not that weak, you better prepare yourself.
While it's true it's not the most important thing to balance at the moment, it's still ridiculous, design-stupid, and should be out of the game. (like BC teleportation)
Else i totally agree with #93, pvsnp : after a design patch we should expect notable imbalances. It's not a big deal if we react accordingly and promptly.
The imbalance today is clear. Bio is weak as fuck and TvP macro bio unplayable. But terran can win with early harass (like hellions runbys), strange surprising mech, early cheeses, defending toss all-in, etc. That's why the numbers are not 90/10 from the beginning of a very unbalanced meta.
We should watch pro games, and most importantly, how they play out. I was totally in shock yesterday by TY vs Creator. TY played godlike, hand 30 supply more and perfect positioning, bio/libs, and was totally rolfstomped by Creator essentially gateway army.
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I think TvZ is ok. Zerg late game is stronger than Terran late game but the matchup is playable. No scenario feels impossible.
TvP is the real problem.
Bio is not viable due Protoss always being ahead on uppgrades due to chrono boost combined with Colossus that hard counter marines.
Mech is not viable since Carriers with the correct support units makes mech almost impossible to play in the late game.
So the solution is obvious, nerf chrono boost and carriers and the matchup will be mostly balanced.
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TvZ bio is super weak and barely played, but that has more to do with zerg metagame and the old hydras and banes buffs than 4.0 (still, nerfed mines and nerfed raven harass don't help)
Still way more playable on ladder than TvP.
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On December 01 2017 18:39 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...
...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice. ><
in 4s my roaches about scratched the outer layers of their stalker ball. the area of effect of the spell is larger than even the range of the roaches.
not using one chrono is a triviap cost for the ability to save your whole army no matter what
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Do the last patch introduced latency issues on all servers ? It's on EU from experience and on KR from what i hear on WardiTV.
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man every time I see a terran going mech in TvP something is dying inside me 
It really ruins the tournaments for me.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 01 2017 21:13 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 18:39 deacon.frost wrote:On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...
...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice. >< in 4s my roaches about scratched the outer layers of their stalker ball. the area of effect of the spell is larger than even the range of the roaches. not using one chrono is a triviap cost for the ability to save your whole army no matter what
So if this is so OP maybe you want to switch to P and show me how it's OP because I can't see it. Right now it sounds to me you're doing it wrong. Maybe a better description would help in understanding what's your problem as the recall doesn't make units immortal & the cooldown is shared via buildings .
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OMG terrans get over yourself.
Terran has been favoured since the beginning of WOL.
Now at least try to use ravens, the changed ghosts the transform servoes etc. before GG'ing out of the game.
Since the beginning of this game protoss has been in a spot where one mistake means an instant loss with no recover ability.
Terrans still have PF's to keep their expo alive if they dont see attacks coming, they can still lift buildings if a ground force breaks through, they stil have CC's to call down mules and temporarily totally negate any economic damage taken OR to just play with 1-2 bases less on the same mineral income...
Not to mention the basic idiotic bio synergy imbalance of having a fast moving airborne anti ground and anti air army that heals itself is ranged and has the highest dps in the game.. Do you even realize how stupidly powerful all this is?
You can not have all this shit and then still want to have it easy. Terran ist still the most forgiving race, so it's at least fair if you learn to use all your tools instead of whining to have your easy bio beats all gameplay back.
Realize this: Bio is like mutas, it's way to strong and versatile. It has always been broken that it can also win a straight up fight versus almost everything.
Terran's control yourself or this game will never be balanced. Because blizzard does listen to whiner's way too much and nobody whines like a terran who can't bio-beat the shit out of everyone.
We got a patch so let's just see how the plays change after some time.
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On December 01 2017 23:14 Freeborn wrote:
OMG terrans get over yourself.
Terran has been favoured since the beginning of WOL.
Now at least try to use ravens, the changed ghosts the transform servoes etc. before GG'ing out of the game.
Since the beginning of this game protoss has been in a spot where one mistake means an instant loss with no recover ability.
Terrans still have PF's to keep their expo alive if they dont see attacks coming, they can still lift buildings if a ground force breaks through, they stil have CC's to call down mules and temporarily totally negate any economic damage taken OR to just play with 1-2 bases less on the same mineral income...
Not to mention the basic idiotic bio synergy imbalance of having a fast moving airborne anti ground and anti air army that heals itself is ranged and has the highest dps in the game.. Do you even realize how stupidly powerful all this is?
You can not have all this shit and then still want to have it easy. Terran ist still the most forgiving race, so it's at least fair if you learn to use all your tools instead of whining to have your easy bio beats all gameplay back.
Realize this: Bio is like mutas, it's way to strong and versatile. It has always been broken that it can also win a straight up fight versus almost everything.
Terran's control yourself or this game will never be balanced. Because blizzard does listen to whiner's way too much and nobody whines like a terran who can't bio-beat the shit out of everyone.
We got a patch so let's just see how the plays change after some time.
stopped reading after Terrans been favoured since WoL, coz its simply just a lie and it shows that you havent been around since WoL... and btw your thread is whining from beginning to end...
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On December 01 2017 23:14 Freeborn wrote:
Realize this: Bio is like mutas, it's way to strong and versatile. It has always been broken that it can also win a straight up fight versus almost everything.
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Blizzard should probably go ahead and make the chrono boost change because they are going to do it eventually then tell Terran players to just figure it out if PvT win rates hover close to the imbalance threshold.
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On December 01 2017 18:39 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...
...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?! Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice. ><
Mass recall may be my favorite change. I don't recall who, but I watched a toss player beat a terran in a base race not long ago. It was glorious seeing the toss army appear out of nowhere and destroy the opponent.
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Eh just give T's back Old Marauders or increase damage of liberators again I guess
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So, I'm a little confused. Is a burrowed Widow Mine only visible when the payload is on cooldown, or is a burrowed Widow Mine always visible now?
I know it was in the patch notes, but I'm still unclear on this. I think it's the former (they're only visible when they're not armed).
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On December 02 2017 00:11 Frudgey wrote:
So, I'm a little confused. Is a burrowed Widow Mine only visible when the payload is on cooldown, or is a burrowed Widow Mine always visible now?
I know it was in the patch notes, but I'm still unclear on this. I think it's the former (they're only visible when they're not armed).
Only visible once it shoots and is reloading. When it is armed it is Invis, basically you only need to throw 1 worker at each mine to clear a mine drop and it doesn't force out any vision or pressure since after its used its just thrown out or you pick it up and lose medivac (usually)
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On December 01 2017 23:43 Boggyb wrote:
Blizzard should probably go ahead and make the chrono boost change because they are going to do it eventually then tell Terran players to just figure it out if PvT win rates hover close to the imbalance threshold.
So you admit that the matchup isn't imbalanced then?
PvT isn't imbalanced. It's just that for the first time in two years it's P favored. And terrans cannot deal with that.
We need to wait until March before we can even discuss the next patch.
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On December 02 2017 00:19 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 23:43 Boggyb wrote:
Blizzard should probably go ahead and make the chrono boost change because they are going to do it eventually then tell Terran players to just figure it out if PvT win rates hover close to the imbalance threshold. So you admit that the matchup isn't imbalanced then? PvT isn't imbalanced. It's just that for the first time in two years it's P favored. And terrans cannot deal with that. We need to wait until March before we can even discuss the next patch.
We can't deal with it because you guys were supposed to be the race that has the superior late game and strong mid game.. Terrans only advantage was to make something happen in the early game so we could scale into a strong mid game with tier 1 units and somehow stop you from reaching the late game.
But now: You guys have a stronger early game and most of our early game harass and builds are weaker, you guys control the mid game and still have the way stronger late game
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On December 01 2017 18:13 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 16:39 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:57 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:52 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 15:27 pvsnp wrote:On December 01 2017 15:21 youngjiddle wrote:On December 01 2017 14:49 Boggyb wrote:On December 01 2017 14:36 youngjiddle wrote:
After this patch I feel the game is in a pretty good spot.
Just ignore half the terran whine, this patch fixes the broken stuff that were actually a problem.
Something I find really ironic is before these two patches, people complained about protoss being too fragile, too technical, too many spells in one army, feeling crappy to play. Yet now people complain it's A-move again. Like make up your mind, I think it is a pretty good balance right now of amove vs micro. What's the reason for this toss hate no matter what?
Something else I don't get, now terrans on reddit want the widow mine change reverted even after people were praising it would nerf game ending moments.
When it comes to these balance discussions if feels like whoever puts forth a valid suggestion first, and claims it to be 100% true, everyone will agree. I hope the balance teams sees through the BS. Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss. Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too. I mean, from an objective POV, Protoss has received: 1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks. 2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow 3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf. PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation. There's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–that was just close to unstoppable. But for the moment, Protoss is absolutely favored. Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching 1. Widow Mine usage post nerf 2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran 3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio 4. timings with the new Chrono Boost So I think they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from any poster. No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads. I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim. It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha. Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing. I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads). Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss? Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now. oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it. I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen. And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable". Nobody whined about imbalance? Please. A year ago, right after 3.8, Protoss was in a similar position as Terran is now and whining the hell out of Bio/Mine/Lib pushes. And under all the whine they had a valid point, just like Terran does now. Not to mention that using past imbalance one way to justify present imbalance another way is bluntly put, petty and pathetic. As for the whole "many, many times...." thing, Aligulac shows exactly one month where the PvT winrates dipped below the Blizzard-sanctioned threshold of +/- 5% and that was immediately after 3.8. So, by "many, many" you apparently mean "once and only once." http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/Guess what 3.8 was? And how is 4.0 similar to 3.8? Gee, I wonder if there might be a connection there. I wonder if the balance team learned something from last year. I guess we will all find out soon enough seeing as the current winrates are beyond the threshold of +/- 5%. Unless the meta shifts drastically, I expect we will see a nerf to Protoss in the next month or so. Completely biased morons (from all races) can be found in amazingly high numbers here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/40568/Bio may or may not be viable, but there's no question that between the WM nerf and all the Protoss buffs, it's significantly weaker than it used to be against Protoss.
I don't consider anyone on the battlenet forums to have an IQ of above 70, sooo you're right it's just unbiased bs there for all races there.
And no, the Protoss players left did not whine to the same degree, it is pretty obvious. Something else, I love watching phoenix baiting mines and splitting adepts, shutting down drops, and toss being active on the map with phoenix-adept. But look at how much whining adept-phoenix got when toss didn't even have a significant advantage in the matchup. Yet reddit whiners whined adepts were boring to watch and look, they nerfed the strategy (within a month?).
Another example, how many Toss pros are known for balance whining compared to the other races. There is no denying who whines the most, haha. My favorite zerg balance whine, after neeb goes 16-2 in a tournament, " I can't help that Zerg is missing something in ZvP" - nerchio 
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On December 01 2017 23:29 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2017 23:14 Freeborn wrote:
OMG terrans get over yourself.
Terran has been favoured since the beginning of WOL.
Now at least try to use ravens, the changed ghosts the transform servoes etc. before GG'ing out of the game.
Since the beginning of this game protoss has been in a spot where one mistake means an instant loss with no recover ability.
Terrans still have PF's to keep their expo alive if they dont see attacks coming, they can still lift buildings if a ground force breaks through, they stil have CC's to call down mules and temporarily totally negate any economic damage taken OR to just play with 1-2 bases less on the same mineral income...
Not to mention the basic idiotic bio synergy imbalance of having a fast moving airborne anti ground and anti air army that heals itself is ranged and has the highest dps in the game.. Do you even realize how stupidly powerful all this is?
You can not have all this shit and then still want to have it easy. Terran ist still the most forgiving race, so it's at least fair if you learn to use all your tools instead of whining to have your easy bio beats all gameplay back.
Realize this: Bio is like mutas, it's way to strong and versatile. It has always been broken that it can also win a straight up fight versus almost everything.
Terran's control yourself or this game will never be balanced. Because blizzard does listen to whiner's way too much and nobody whines like a terran who can't bio-beat the shit out of everyone.
We got a patch so let's just see how the plays change after some time. stopped reading after Terrans been favoured since WoL, coz its simply just a lie and it shows that you havent been around since WoL... and btw your thread is whining from beginning to end...
Uhh since wol? Remember brood lord infestor? Remember Blink stalker Allin? Rember late hots when Terran had slightly less than 50% win rate in both matchups? lol Terran bio has not been to dominant for awhile. And currently bio is dead so there's that to.
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EPT
