StarCraft II Balance Update -- November 28, 2017

On November 29 2017 23:04 JackONeill wrote:
Really love the ghost cost change. It's a pivotal change for ghost viability.

It seems that opening ghosts for mech play can be awesome too. Early hellbat/medivacs/ghosts pushes with ghosts sniping queens can deal a lot of damage (even if the zerg built 4-5 roaches since the snipe will oneshot them).

Also, ghosts are actually extraordinary to defend early game TvP agression. Oracles and phenixes are very suceptible to EMP. DTs can also be EMPed if you didn't get turrets in time. Sentry cheeses forcefielding bunkers can be countered, and blink allins or immortal allins can be threatened by a center-mass EMP.

Playing mech I feel like building 3 to 5 ghosts early game TvP and coupling them with hellion play in TvZ before transitionning into heavy mech production could do wonders.

On November 30 2017 01:42 tritonice wrote:
What affect does changing the oracle from normal damage to spell damage have? I know units damage differently based on armor, light, etc. but the impact of this change is unclear to me. Thanks.

Increase build time from 26.4 to 30.7 seconds.

On November 29 2017 23:53 ReachTheSky wrote:
Finally, a real infestor nerf after 6-7 years, that shit was ridiculous.

On November 30 2017 02:22 jpg06051992 wrote:
This patch is moving pretty much in all of the right directions but I'm gonna have to agree with this poster on what he said about the Cyclone, it's been undergoing so many changes patch after patch after patch is' clearly obvious the design sucks and the balance team has no clue what to be done with them.

"About the cyclone/cyclone upgrade

The cyclone can't find its role in the game.
- it's too expensive/long to produce to be a general purposed mech footman
- it's too unreliable and lacks micro potential to be an anti ground damage dealer
- it's anti air damage is too low, and the lockdown is too unreliable (because of the manual activation and the cooldown) to be an anti air unit

Lowering the upgrade price isn't a bad move, but the stats and behaviour of the unit are wrong to fit any role mech needs.
The unit needs to be reworked. I'd suggest making the cyclone a reliable general purpose mech footman that can assume basic anti air function, but the numbers and the clumsiness of the unit should be reworked. "

On November 30 2017 02:46 Snakestyle1 wrote:
What im truly concerned about, is strengt of late game skytoss seems to be back to before the big patch but also...

On November 30 2017 02:46 Snakestyle1 wrote:
Also, is it me or roach ravager is completely unviable in both ZvP and ZvT? They seem really bad in those matchup. Whats funny, is that those 2 units are actually the 2 best units in ZvZ..

On November 30 2017 03:08 Boggyb wrote:

Stargate openings are probably dead in PvT. They will probably still exist in PvZ but they'll be weaker since they'll hit later and getting damage at the pro level was already often quite dicey.

On November 30 2017 02:59 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with the changes, all of them seem reasonable. Terran is still a bit weak overall though.

I think a slight Crono boost nerf and a Carrier nerf would be a good next step.

On November 30 2017 05:23 pvsnp wrote:
After this patch, I would say Zerg and Terran are in a more-or-less reasonable spot. Protoss though, with the buffs to Chrono and Stalkers, plus the indirect Skytoss buff (Infestors) and the lategame multiple recalls, and the lategame massing of Shield Batteries, seems the strongest race. Feels like HotS again, where Protoss had a slight but undeniable advantage over the other two races.

Hell, even Colossus deathballs are back. HotS all over again.

On November 29 2017 23:04 JackONeill wrote:
Overall the mine should either reverted back but made unable to target workers, or be revealed when reloading and have its impact damage lowered but only cost 1 supply, 50/25 and be faster to produce.

On November 30 2017 07:20 Rollora wrote:
Remove blinking DTs and I will install it again

On November 30 2017 07:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


Why not wait for Blizzard to remove Neosteel Frame before re-installing? It would make as much sense.

On November 30 2017 07:42 Rollora wrote:

wouldnt care about it. one thing was in the game since the start the other was added and ,ade it even more volatile
and since they removed recently introduced features, the chance for removing them is higher

On November 30 2017 07:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


"Blink DTs make the game more volatile"

Are you serious? Most people barely remember that they're in the game. Not exactly a hill I'd choose to die on.

On November 30 2017 07:20 Rollora wrote:
Remove blinking DTs and I will install it again

On November 29 2017 23:53 ReachTheSky wrote:
Finally, a real infestor nerf after 6-7 years, that shit was ridiculous.

On November 30 2017 03:51 xongnox wrote:
I am the only terran a bit bored with Blizzard's way to buff terran ? ie each time they only buff mech (units). Bio has died, everyone play mech, and they buff mech...
A suggestion : make bio great again. Begin with bringing back the old maraudeur.

Maybe fast up bio opening : in today SC2 tempo, bio is soooo long to produce, stim/shield/+1/add-ons and 3 rax and medivacs, bio utterly sux at beginning (ie before these ups). Everything was accelerated in SC2, except bio production set-up. Anayway the main force of mech today is on openings, they are so much better than bio-ones, with more pressures and less downtime (bio transitioning after 1/11)

On November 30 2017 00:48 Snarosc wrote:


Of course it was Terran whining, what else was it ?

Terran was "clearly underpowered" ? Based on what ? Statistics ? We didn't have any tournaments in the last 2 weeks, because YES, the patch has just been live for 2 weeks.

On November 30 2017 16:39 hiroshOne wrote:
Bio was ballshit powerful since the beginning of sc2. Most of balance problems were created trying to cpunter bio strengh. BIO ballshit snowballed into more ballshit counters in other races. If they wanted to fix the game they should revert the game to WOL, tone down BIO, balance the game around that and slowly add hots and lotv units.

On November 30 2017 19:37 hiroshOne wrote:
By buffing BIO production rate u make BIO imba. BIO timing attacks will be unstopabble for Zerg as Terran on 3 bases will never stop attack to even let breathe the Zerg. No. It's not a good idea of balancing this matchup. Indeed BIO seems weakened mostly because of widomine nerf. But production? Nope. How often we have seen Terran having more army supply than Zerg especially after larva nerf. Bio is mineral heavy and it synergizes with mules heavily. Faster production of marines/marauders would be too much

On November 30 2017 16:39 hiroshOne wrote:
Bio was ballshit powerful since the beginning of sc2. Most of balance problems were created trying to cpunter bio strengh. BIO ballshit snowballed into more ballshit counters in other races. If they wanted to fix the game they should revert the game to WOL, tone down BIO, balance the game around that and slowly add hots and lotv units.

The Infestor Nerf is too much. It really makes no sence especially nerfing Infested Terrans cast range. If they delete burrow funghal casting, they should revert collision and visibility of burrowed Infestors, and make their model smaller- harder to snipe, less cluncky and shit. Look at HT or ghost and Infestor in the same time...

With TvP obvious problems it's not the Oracle or buffed Stalkers problem. It's the new chronoboost which is too powerfull as a macroboost and too well rounded. As Terran macroboost gives him more mining, Zerg boosts production this Protoss macro boost can do antyhing from boosting production, economy and upgrades. As Special said: when Terran has 1/1 protoss on double forges is on 3/3 with chronoboost. That's ridiculous. In LOTV Zerg's larva inject and Terran Mule were nerfed and they bring back almost HOTS level chrono to protoss.

ShieldBattery nerf is the right move. But still, thye NEED adress chronoboost asap.

On November 30 2017 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:
The shit openings are caused by the mine nerf, at least in TvP.

On November 30 2017 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:

The shit openings are caused by the mine nerf, at least in TvP.

On November 30 2017 03:08 Jacenoob wrote:


Yeah, that is a big concern with the Infestor nerf. But on the other hand the Oracle and Shield Battery nerf will help Zerg to get into a better economic position in the late game.
.


I am really glad about that. Roach Ravager is the most boring playstyle to watch in ZvP and ZvT, I will not miss it. Everything about that playstyle is boring so as long Blizzard finds a fair balance I am glad it got replaced.

On December 01 2017 04:35 Marfy wrote:
I think the Infestor changes are good.
But more Terran buffs? Really?
The Oracle change is good too
Also to whatever Terran is about to Whine at me, look at GSL, SSL, WCS Finals and IEM, Terran is fine git gud

On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...

...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?!

On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...

...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?!

On November 30 2017 20:10 xongnox wrote:


-Bio is mostly weak because shit openings/hydras/gateball (new stalker, chrono'ed blink/charge, etc), the mine nerf is not that important in strait-up fights (more impact in defense and harass)

-I don't propose to speed up bio production rate all game long, but bio production set-up. For example, if we combine shield and stim in one upgrade, we effectively get a stronger Byun's 2 medivacs stim timing... witch is actually unplayed at hight level because weak as fuck. Hydra follow-up simply killed this opening. Even with this build (actually the fastest stim then shield viable build), by time shield is done, upgraded hydras recks you.


-Even with less supply, ling/bane/hydra reck bio atm (this comp is very supply efficient, btw). So the old idea zerg should have way more stuff and eco because inefficient in fight is obsolete imo. (or, more accurately, it's dependent on zerg composition)

As Special said: when Terran has 1/1 protoss on double forges is on 3/3 with chronoboost. That's ridiculous. In LOTV Zerg's larva inject and Terran Mule were nerfed and they bring back almost HOTS level chrono to protoss.

On November 30 2017 07:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


"Blink DTs make the game more volatile"

Are you serious? Most people barely remember that they're in the game. Not exactly a hill I'd choose to die on.

On December 01 2017 13:21 washikie wrote:


There's exactly one blink dt Allin that saw pro level use a handful of times it mostly works only due to surprise. There are many things wrong with ballance right now but blink Dts are not one of them.

On December 01 2017 14:49 Boggyb wrote:

Players who play Protoss have different complaints than those who play against Protoss.

On December 01 2017 15:21 youngjiddle wrote:


Just a thought. Anyone who says protoss is amove like it was in the past is delusional and probably hypocritical at calling things amove when their race is just the same. reminder being "amove" isn't a bad thing too.

On December 01 2017 15:27 pvsnp wrote:

I mean, from an objective POV, Protoss has received:
1. A chrono buff–about the same over time but creates brutal timing attacks.
2. A Stalker buff–same DPS, much better earlygame and at sniping things like Stalkers were always used for anyhow
3. A Colossus-deathball buff–shreds Light now, Stalkers got buffed vs Armored and voila deathball

All these are straight buffs. Yes, they have downsides but to argue that Protoss overall is weaker after the patch is pure biased bullshit, even accounting for the Oracle nerf.

PvZ is questionable though Skytoss seems quite strong, Zerg seems to win its share of games. PvT on the other hand is unquestionably Protoss-favored, to the point where mech TvP has become an actual thing at the pro level out of sheer desperation.

There's no denying that Protoss is in a very good spot atm, especially in PvT. Which is not to say the the meta will not evolve; Terrans might be able to come up with some new build now since the 3-minute Oracle is gone–that was just close to unstoppable. But for the moment, Protoss is absolutely favored.

Hell, even the balance team explicitly announced that they are actively watching
1. Widow Mine usage post nerf
2. Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran
3. overall effectiveness of Terran Bio
4. timings with the new Chrono Boost

So I think they are having no problems whatsoever seeing through the bullshit–from any poster.

On December 01 2017 15:52 youngjiddle wrote:


No one has "argued Protoss overall is weaker after the patch". Why get so defensive in these threads.

I find it extremely ignorant for anyone to say that Protoss is absolutely favored in this version of the patch after the oracle nerf, two days after the patch was released with no data to back up the claim.

It is nice that the PvT winrate on aligulac is not 45% and in terran's favor. Not to mention the last aligulac rating was very skewed because of the oracle cheese. That aligulac rating had olimoleague games where terrans just GGd after the oracle flew in, haha.

On December 01 2017 15:57 pvsnp wrote:

Apologies, I have a bad habit of editing my post repeatedly to add more stuff. You probably didn't get the chance to read the whole thing.

I'm glad to see that you aren't one of those completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 (or at least claim to think, who knows what actually goes on in their heads).

Find me extremely ignorant if you please, but I stand by my statement and I'm quite certain that time will prove me correct. Just sit back and watch the games, they will show the truth of it one way or another. Tbh I will be very happy if I am wrong and TvP is actually perfectly balanced.

Out of curiosity, though, what do you think Terrans should be doing against Protoss?

Oh and as far as data goes, Aligulac has the current PvT winrate at 56% in the Protoss favor, though the current period did start a few days before the Oracle nerf. I have also watched streams where Stats, Zest, TY, Inno, and Major declare that Protoss is strong and/or favored right now.

On November 30 2017 19:37 hiroshOne wrote:
By buffing BIO production rate u make BIO imba. BIO timing attacks will be unstopabble for Zerg as Terran on 3 bases will never stop attack to even let breathe the Zerg. No. It's not a good idea of balancing this matchup. Indeed BIO seems weakened mostly because of widomine nerf. But production? Nope. How often we have seen Terran having more army supply than Zerg especially after larva nerf. Bio is mineral heavy and it synergizes with mules heavily. Faster production of marines/marauders would be too much

On December 01 2017 16:39 youngjiddle wrote:


oh no, PvT is a 56% winrate on aligulac, whatever will we do, it's not like protoss has had to deal with that exact winrate flipped many, many times throughout the year, yet no one talked about it.

I'd be curious to see the "completely biased morons who do indeed think that Protoss is weaker post-4.0 " you say you have seen.

And to answer your question, Terrans can make small adjustments like making more marauders because they are still great vs. stalkers and colossi are nerfed vs. them. If new stalkers are better vs. liberators, instead of liberators, vikings could work vs colossi again. After killing colossi, vikings on the ground are surprisingly really good now. However, my little ideas are just ideas you are asking me to think of. Terran can do the same old, same old and still be great, I find it laughable seeing people who cry "bio is not viable".

On December 01 2017 05:15 opisska wrote:
I am as late to the party as ever, but...

...seriously, mass recall on nexus by default? Patch THAT. A roaming toss army is now 100% untouchable, without anything you could do about it. How does that make any sense?!

On December 01 2017 11:23 Boggyb wrote:
Multiple people complaining about DT blink? Is there some new Chrono'd Blink DT Protoss cheese strat terrorizing the ladder these days?

On December 01 2017 18:39 deacon.frost wrote:

Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice.

><

On December 01 2017 21:13 opisska wrote:


in 4s my roaches about scratched the outer layers of their stalker ball. the area of effect of the spell is larger than even the range of the roaches.

not using one chrono is a triviap cost for the ability to save your whole army no matter what

On December 01 2017 23:14 Freeborn wrote:
OMG terrans get over yourself.
Terran has been favoured since the beginning of WOL.

Now at least try to use ravens, the changed ghosts the transform servoes etc. before GG'ing out of the game.

Since the beginning of this game protoss has been in a spot where one mistake means an instant loss with no recover ability.

Terrans still have PF's to keep their expo alive if they dont see attacks coming, they can still lift buildings if a ground force breaks through, they stil have CC's to call down mules and temporarily totally negate any economic damage taken OR to just play with 1-2 bases less on the same mineral income...

Not to mention the basic idiotic bio synergy imbalance of having a fast moving airborne anti ground and anti air army that heals itself is ranged and has the highest dps in the game.. Do you even realize how stupidly powerful all this is?

You can not have all this shit and then still want to have it easy. Terran ist still the most forgiving race, so it's at least fair if you learn to use all your tools instead of whining to have your easy bio beats all gameplay back.

Realize this: Bio is like mutas, it's way to strong and versatile. It has always been broken that it can also win a straight up fight versus almost everything.

Terran's control yourself or this game will never be balanced. Because blizzard does listen to whiner's way too much and nobody whines like a terran who can't bio-beat the shit out of everyone.

We got a patch so let's just see how the plays change after some time.

On December 01 2017 18:39 deacon.frost wrote:

Have you tried actually playing the game? Go, give it a try and show us the OP power of the recall. 4s recall, shared cooldown across the nexuses and shares the same energy with the chrono which is a much better choice.

><

On December 01 2017 23:43 Boggyb wrote:
Blizzard should probably go ahead and make the chrono boost change because they are going to do it eventually then tell Terran players to just figure it out if PvT win rates hover close to the imbalance threshold.

On December 01 2017 18:13 pvsnp wrote:

Nobody whined about imbalance? Please. A year ago, right after 3.8, Protoss was in a similar position as Terran is now and whining the hell out of Bio/Mine/Lib pushes. And under all the whine they had a valid point, just like Terran does now. Not to mention that using past imbalance one way to justify present imbalance another way is bluntly put, petty and pathetic.

As for the whole "many, many times...." thing, Aligulac shows exactly one month where the PvT winrates dipped below the Blizzard-sanctioned threshold of +/- 5% and that was immediately after 3.8. So, by "many, many" you apparently mean "once and only once."
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/

Guess what 3.8 was? And how is 4.0 similar to 3.8? Gee, I wonder if there might be a connection there. I wonder if the balance team learned something from last year. I guess we will all find out soon enough seeing as the current winrates are beyond the threshold of +/- 5%. Unless the meta shifts drastically, I expect we will see a nerf to Protoss in the next month or so.

Completely biased morons (from all races) can be found in amazingly high numbers here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/40568/

Bio may or may not be viable, but there's no question that between the WM nerf and all the Protoss buffs, it's significantly weaker than it used to be against Protoss.

On December 01 2017 23:29 KOtical wrote:



stopped reading after Terrans been favoured since WoL, coz its simply just a lie and it shows that you havent been around since WoL... and btw your thread is whining from beginning to end...

On December 02 2017 01:25 DomeGetta wrote:
First on the balance -

I like the infestor nerf for Tvz - it's a step in the right direction to make bio viable again (may not be enough).
For those of you saying bio is overpowered - think of how ridiculous you sound.
Clearly bio play has the highest mechanical skill ceiling for Terran - and you have the players with the best mechanics in the world abandoning it - why do you think that is? If it's not under powered - why are the top koreans - the individuals who have the best tools to exploit its skill ceiling - not using it? They don't like winning? I'd honestly like to hear a non troll answer to this.

On December 02 2017 02:01 Rail_sc2 wrote:
Nerf chrono = protoss cant play economically even with other races , so i think need leave chrono , but nerf stalkers . First can help is reduce attack speed , from 1.51 to 2.01 for beginning . This little nerf can change a lot . Disruptor im fine if will be even remooved from game , however i think the best nerf would be raise cost , to 250-200 for example ,so it will be only late-game unit which will help protoss to fight vs hardcore bio+liberators+ghosts , but will not abused in any match-ups on early stage

On December 01 2017 23:06 deacon.frost wrote:

So if this is so OP maybe you want to switch to P and show me how it's OP because I can't see it. Right now it sounds to me you're doing it wrong. Maybe a better description would help in understanding what's your problem as the recall doesn't make units immortal & the cooldown is shared via buildings .

On December 02 2017 02:12 BigRedDog wrote:


You do realize that there hasn't been many pro games where the terran lost to zerg with bio bc of borrowed infestors. What i see is that terran have options to use mech or bio and they use either. Bio has been shut down bc of hydras/ling/bling.

Good example is Rogue vs Innovation series in Blizzon. Innovation used bio to get a game win.

So making changes to infestors ain't going to make bio stronger bc zerg don't depend on infestors borrowed fungal growth to clutch a win, if that's what you are implying.

On December 02 2017 03:24 Kenny_mk1 wrote:
Things is you guys want P nerf for PvT and i get that, even if i think there is also a "figure it out" part to the problem.

But so far since this patch PvZ is really unforgivable atm until i think mb d1 -m3 at least, (as a dia2-3 depending how much i play) and i think plat will get it even worse.

It's certainly acceptable but if nerfs occurs for PvT ,PvZ will be fucking boring.New recall is a big nerf in this match-up. With some diversion, you could easily one shot an hatchery & tp back, now it's another story.

I hope they buff bio in a way or another, since apparently now there is no point to using them in PvZ too, there should be room to this.

And i prefer a straight marine buff , marauder rather than reverting mine. (which is i think, a pure casual design-decision for F2P) or buffing libs.

On December 02 2017 01:04 youngjiddle wrote:


I don't consider anyone on the battlenet forums to have an IQ of above 70, sooo you're right it's just unbiased bs there for all races there.

And no, the Protoss players left did not whine to the same degree, it is pretty obvious. Something else, I love watching phoenix baiting mines and splitting adepts, shutting down drops, and toss being active on the map with phoenix-adept. But look at how much whining adept-phoenix got when toss didn't even have a significant advantage in the matchup. Yet reddit whiners whined adepts were boring to watch and look, they nerfed the strategy (within a month?).

Another example, how many Toss pros are known for balance whining compared to the other races. There is no denying who whines the most, haha. My favorite zerg balance whine, after neeb goes 16-2 in a tournament, " I can't help that Zerg is missing something in ZvP" - nerchio

On December 02 2017 04:08 youngjiddle wrote:

LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault.

On December 02 2017 05:41 pvsnp wrote:

Not quite sure what your point is about Protoss players whining. Are you saying Protoss players whine less? That seems like an extremely difficult assertion to prove. How do you even measure something like that objectively? Even if you could, how do you know it is not simply a product of fewer posters being Protoss players, or Protoss players staying off the forums, or Protoss players simply being less involved with the community? There are way too many extraneous factors to make a blanket assertion like "Protoss players are less whiny" and expect people to believe you.

With particular regard to Adept/Phoenix, the reason Adepts were nerfed so "quickly" was because they were a major issue in both PvZ and PvT. Zerg had been whining about Adepts for months before Terran joined. The Adept nerf wasn't quick at all from the Zerg perspective, the Terrans joining was just the last straw for Blizzard.

Toss pros balance whining? Well, Stats, Classic, Dear, and Zest, to name a few. About the same as all the others.

In case you haven't realized, my point is that it's an incredibly stupid claim to make that playing Protoss is somehow related to whining. People whine, in SC2 or anything else. Whether these people happen to play Protoss, Zerg, or Terran is irrelevant, and trying to make distinctions thereof is nothing more than petty tribalism.


While I agree a Marine buff is a terrible idea (would break everything), the overall point is that bio needs a buff. Personally I think just reverting WM might be enough.

Also recall and dropping are hugely different, that's a false equivalence fallacy if I've ever heard one. Drops can be deflected, sniped, feedbacked, etc. They have to be unloaded one unit at a time. Medivacs are units that must be built at a cost, can be killed by enemy units, etc etc. Recall is teleportation. It's a spell that costs energy. The two are nowhere close to each other and I have no idea why anyone would think so. The Protoss analogue of a Medivac drop is WP harass.

On December 02 2017 05:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


Nerfing the widow mine has given a breath of fresh air to Protoss openings in PvT, so I can understand why Blizzard is reluctant to just return to the previous status quo. Especially since Protoss openings in PvZ are very limited too.

On December 02 2017 04:08 youngjiddle wrote:

LOL a marine buff, what a terrible suggestion. Also sniping a base and recalling is no different from a 3 medivac drop killing a base and boosting away. If you don't have map awareness it is your fault.

On December 02 2017 18:52 hiroshOne wrote:
Reverting Marauder to one attack, which is a great buff for bio, will mean they must revert Ultralisk nerf. The new Marauder would wreck Ultras even with max armour upgrades. It would be back to shitty unit like it was before LOTV.

On December 02 2017 21:43 MrWayne wrote:


yeah this seems reasonable even with 8armor Ultras the Marauder will deal 3 more dmg per shot than now.

On December 03 2017 03:45 MockHamill wrote:
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.

It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game.

On December 03 2017 05:51 Boggyb wrote:
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.

Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play.

On December 03 2017 05:51 Boggyb wrote:
I wonder if giving Terran a long, expensive upgrade on the Fusion Core to change tech labs/reactors into tech reactors would help issues with Terran transitions in late game without allowing for super imbalanced cheeses/mid-game pushes. If needed for balance, each could have to be manually upgraded after the upgrade unlocked the option.

Ideally that would lead to late game Battlecruiser transitions in professional games. The unit is too hype to see almost no play.

On December 03 2017 03:45 MockHamill wrote:
I think merging mech weapons and ship weapons upgrades would solve much of the problems in TvZ and TvP.

It would benefit both bio and mech and it would have the most impact where Terran struggles the most, which is late game.

Ghost's Steady Targeting will return 100% energy when interrupted.
Smart Servos cost reduced from 150 Minerals / 150 Vespene Gas to 100/100.
Rapid Fire Launchers cost reduced from 150/150 to 75/75.
Ghost cost changed from 200/100 to 150/125.
Drilling Claws cost reduced from 150/150 to 75/75.

On December 04 2017 02:26 the_last_terran1 wrote:


I don t see any reason to reduce some upgrades to 75/75 while it will be easier to reduce to 100/100....
It doesn t matter, but it proves balance team is touching mecanics in a blind mode..

On December 02 2017 08:34 FanaticCZ wrote:
Ill wait and see what the current changes do with drilling claws being so cheap etc. but i think widow mines should be cheaper if they uncloak after one shot. They will always get killed in a battle now once they shoot. So you are paying quite a lot for a unit that might only snipe a single ling and then die.

On December 03 2017 03:07 washikie wrote:


but is the overall marine +maurder bio ball dps higher or lower? marines go back to doing 1 dmg a hit vs 8 armor ultras. Idk if having 1 attack marauder vs 8 Armour ultra is better or worse than it is now.

On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:

P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z

Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.

On December 04 2017 05:33 pvsnp wrote:
I really don't see why Ultras have to play a part in this. Right now:

P >>> T
T == Z
P (lategame) > Z

Since buffing Terran outright will probably ruin the TvZ balance, just nerf Protoss. They're the strongest race right now, nerfing them is the obvious solution to restore balance.

On December 04 2017 05:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


It's hardly that simple. First of all Blizzard wants bio to be viable in ZvT, and a buff to bio probably wouldn't ruin ZvT. Secondly terran is struggling to deal with how much Protoss can throw at Terran early on, as well as fast upgrades. Nerfing Protoss in those respects could easily imbalance ZvP since zerg does pretty well in those phases of the game.

On December 04 2017 05:44 MrWayne wrote:


My point is not that TvZ favors Zerg, i actually think T Mech has an edge over Zerg right now, I want bio to become the standard composition vs Zerg again.

On December 04 2017 05:49 pvsnp wrote:

What I said is an oversimplification, that's true enough.

That being the case, I would definitely favor nerfing Protoss over buffing bio since bio is well, bio. There is a reason marines have never been touched since 2010. Moreover the whole point of bio is that it scales really, really well, so any buffs to earlygame bio have a frightening snowball potential.

I would argue that Terran is the least flexible out of all the races, especially with regard to its core units. It's always either marines/marauders + splash or tanks + meatshield, and if neither of those work (as is the case against Protoss right now), Terran can't really do much of anything to change that.

On December 04 2017 06:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


Bio being too weak is a design concern for TvZ though. And design concerns should always trump balance concerns. That bio is underpowered against Protoss is a balance concern, but it's something that can be and will be fixed by tweaking numbers and stuff (Olimoleague 108 while not statistically significant by any means, was certainly encouraging about the effects of 4.0.2 on the match-up). Whereas if Blizzard misses its window we'll get a year of mech TvZ. The balance of PvT in the immediate future is of secondary importance to that.

On December 04 2017 06:16 jpg06051992 wrote:


I'd be fine with Hydralisks becoming a bit more fine tuned and less well rounded in the meta, currently it's pretty much never a bad idea to build them in any army comp and in any match up when they still don't fill the role of Zerg not having any highly mobile ground based anti-air, they get wrecked by phoenix and Oracle due to being light, they do decent vs. Void Rays but not en mass and they get stomped by Carriers.

Maybe revert Hydra health back to 80 and give them + dmg to air units? extra range vs air?

On December 04 2017 06:21 jpg06051992 wrote:


Yea I'd mostly agree with this, but they for some reason still get wrecked by Protoss air and they are kinda of OP vs. Protoss ground, why not just switch a bit of the strength at this point. With Lurkers it's not like Protoss is overpowered vs. Zerg at this point in terms of mid/late game units that can halt death pushes.

On December 04 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote: As proof of the wide-ranging implications of Queens being changed, I supply the infamous Patch 1.4.3 that increased their ground attack range from 3 to 5 and was later credited with bringing about the even more infamous BL/Infestor era.

On December 04 2017 06:36 pvsnp wrote:

That's actually a pretty good idea. Just split hydra attack into a ground and air version, and nerf ground while buffing air. So hydras will be fine in ZvP and gone from ZvT, as it should be. Could throw in a muta buff or something if Zerg starts suffering in ZvT.

On December 04 2017 06:48 Tyrhanius wrote:

Yeah at this moment the game was fantastic, 50% of time bunker rush, all zerg dying vs a simple hellion/banshee pressure, TvZ must have been like 70% winrate... glorious time...

99% of your "ideas" are just pure whine you try to hidd behind "balance suggestions".

On December 04 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


It's still a nerf against chargelot based stuff in ZvP. It would probably mean that zerg would have to diversify their composition in ZvP, which while a good idea in principle might cause balance issues. I don't think a muta buff is as important as a thor nerf for ZvT.

On December 04 2017 06:54 pvsnp wrote:

From somebody as biased towards Zerg as you are, I view that as the highest of compliments. Not much mention hilariously hypocritical.

Thank you.

Normally I'd point out that you completely misunderstood my point (small change = big effect) and that the actual game balance had nothing to do with it, but in your case such logic would be wasted anyhow.

On December 04 2017 07:09 Tyrhanius wrote:

You can play the arrogant dude who is smater than everyone else but your posts are like the 10 whine posts a day terran do each day for 2-3 years.

On December 04 2017 07:44 Boggyb wrote:

What are you basing the idea that Protoss is the strongest on? Because according to aligulac, Zerg is by far the strongest. None of the match ups are currently past Blizzard's imbalanced line, but the closest is ZvP.

On December 04 2017 09:48 Jerom wrote:
I feel like for diamond scrubs (and worse) the high templar change is the biggest problem in TvP. It's incredibly easy for protoss to have close to perfect micro right now. If they just attack move and storm with some high templars, the protoss is doing a really good job in a fight for diamond standards. At the moment I don't even know how I can deal with this because I'm nowhere near skilled enough to actually take a fight well enough in the lategame to compete with that.

It feels like at my level (im diamond 3 atm) TvP is basically unplayable in the lategame. I know the balance really matters at high level but this specific high templar change just targets the midtier levels with zero compensation for terran. Before this change, protoss players would have to group their high templars seperately and then lose a few maybe do to mispositioning or mismicro or being generally overwhelmed, while right now they're automatically nice and split between the army without the toss putting in any effort. This is a ridiculous state of the game for all (semi) casual terrans. Basically I have to all in right now or I will just lose in the lategame. I know theoretically I should just get good, but I'm not capable of playing that much and I don't seem to be very talented. It'd just be great if I could actually play lategame against protoss too.

On December 04 2017 18:44 Snarosc wrote:
On Aligulac I see PvT is 54.3% winrate for Protoss over the last 2 weeks. That's a pretty decent number after such a big design change.

Yet what am I seeing ? Terran whine left & right.
Guys, 54.3% is pretty much the winrate Terrans have had in this very same matchup since the last big design change that occured in December last year. (With the exception of April 2017) Just look it up, period by period, you'll see.


The difference with today's winrate is that we're just in the period of adaptation that occurs after every patch ! 54% winrate for any of the two races right after such a big design change is great, for real. (Especially since we are including in these 54% that obviously broken oracle timing that almost can't be stopped)
I know that Terrans were not used to see the matchup being Protoss favored, or at least forgot what it felt like after a year, but seeing all the SC2 forums being filled with at least 2x as much hate and whine as usual is scary.

On December 04 2017 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


Casual balance is a pretty difficult thing to quantify. Mostly Blizzard doesn't bother with it much since matchmaking will generally level out people's winrates. Prior to the patch (and assuming that the skill of the players of the different races is equal) Zerg was by far the strongest with the average Zerg being mid-plat, Terran was in the middle with the average Terran being mid-gold and Protoss was the weakest with the average Protoss being low-gold. Post-patch Protoss and Terran have basically swapped places at the level of the general populace. Not sure if the assumption that the skill of the players of different races is equal is reasonable post-patch though since newer players attracted by FTP usually choose terran.

Either way there's lots of stuff with all races that are easier to do than deal with, so I'd suggest to go for stuff like that such as ranged liberators.

On December 05 2017 01:35 xongnox wrote:
Yep, using aligulac stats to consider balance is well know to be stupid bullshit for years. People still does it. Statistics literacy is not a widespread skill...
So to be fast :

• Expecting than a perfectly balance MU would lead to 50% ratio on aligulac typically assume two identical players distributions (skillwise), random picks from each, and a (really) huge numbers of games. Then by the law of large numbers we should get near 50%.
  
  
• In reality each hypothesis is plain false. Players distribution between races are not identical at all. According to the era, we can have 4 top-world-zerg for 1 top-world T and 1 same Toss, and 2 top-tiers Zergs for 5 top-tier T and 3 top-tier toss, etc, etc. In this condition, even with a perfectly balanced game and randoms match picks, statistics of korean tournements will be flawed.
  
  
• Games are not picked up randomly, but most of them are a result of some sort of qualification (even to play the second round of a qualifier, you have to win the first round, etc.), qualifications results relying on skill... and balance.
  In practice there is an effect a bit similar to MMR matching on ladder, witch balance things out (stats wise) even if one race is super favored.
  
  
• In this setup, where similar MMR players are matched, 3 races is a nightmare to understand balance from statistics.
  Suppose a totally broken Z >>>>>> P but the others MU are perfectly balanced. Then, because Z >>>>>> P, Z players will be over-ranked (skill wise), so matched with superior T opponents. So we will get T >>> Z stats-wise even if we account MMR of players, but the match-up is perfectly balanced. On the other end, P will be under-ranked and so they will do fine in PvT vs similar MMR. So we get P >>> T stats wise. Then because P underranked, zergs will be matched with better P opponents, not enough to compensate the imbalance but like 1/2 enough. So ZvP will appear Z >>> P. So we get on appearance Z >>> P, T >>> Z, and P >>> T, and this is only caused by one flawed MU. (but there is no way to know witch one )
  

tl:dr : don't even watch aligulac stats (or ladder ones). Watch tournaments, how games play out. Watch every fucking competitive terran on earth not even trying to play bio. Watch Korean ladder. Even the PvT match counted on aligulac atm is mostly mech, not bio, and people come here to use that statistics to speak about the balance of bio TvP... LOL.

On December 05 2017 01:18 Jerom wrote:

Well, this change would be a change aimed at casual balance to begin with. It simply makes the game easier and its effects shouldn't be that large at high levels (although I've seen enough mediocre high templar micro even in top games so this might just be an overall buff). The thing is that in the lategame protoss players can now just group high templars with their entire army, attack move, place a few storms and then literally have perfect micro. The high templars will spread out nicely, making sniping them off or emping a bunch really hard, they wont move forward or move in late, they'll just be there positioned perfectly with just a simple attack move. This is a big deal at levels where the mechanics of a player have a severe inpact on the game.

The terran army, which is already generally pretty hard and has a very high skill cap, doesn't have anything this easy. Yes, there are things that are in some sense easier or harder to deal with and all races have some of these, but these high templars are something that happens in standard play. It's at the point where any mediocre player (and I'm not even talking about gold or something, but diamonds and probably even master players) will struggle badly to win a fight versus a maxed out protoss because the protoss will basically micro perfectly while the terran player will probably have some micro flaws. It's infuriating. I've personally always liked to aim for macro oriented playstyles, or when I get an advantage try to play it safe and get more ahead, but at this point if protoss ever gets a sizeable deathball it's becoming really hard to ever win a fight.

This is supposed to be a quality of life change, to make the game more enjoyable precisely for diamond players. I'd claim its doing the opposite, it will over time probably reduce the TvP match up into an all in fest because at this skill level the match up is just not playable in the late game.