EPTBut I don't know, I don't know if there is some optimal setup that pros use or if it's just haphazard mine laying and there's not specific process. Could you guys give me some advice in how you go about it?
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 364
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
But I don't know, I don't know if there is some optimal setup that pros use or if it's just haphazard mine laying and there's not specific process. Could you guys give me some advice in how you go about it? | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
the base in FS is pretty small but a turret ring all round it is what I need to do? that's a lot of turrets. but i mean if flash does it (he goes nuts) I guess I should as well | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
I would always build depots as close together as possible, because as you noticed, space in your main as Terran gets rare pretty fast. And you should just build enough turrets that the arbiter dies when recalling and not more, because additional turrets won't prevent a recall in like 90% of the time and they will usually all die when a recall comes and mines don't wipe out the army. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 24 2017 02:39 Cryoc wrote: The only area where you have to build turrets in your main on FS is near the ramp to cover the little air path behind the natural. The main is already covered by having enough turrets in your natural and 3rd and the walking path in between them. Only at the top right position you need some extra turrets in your main to cover the flight path in between natural and 3rd. I would always build depots as close together as possible, because as you noticed, space in your main as Terran gets rare pretty fast. And you should just build enough turrets that the arbiter dies when recalling and not more, because additional turrets won't prevent a recall in like 90% of the time and they will usually all die when a recall comes and mines don't wipe out the army. thank you Cryoc. That's hella smart, making turrets in the walking path. By the way, when do you usually start setting down mines for anti recall? I feel like setting down mines is very necessary since a recall can completely screw you over. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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james1024
118 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On November 24 2017 13:03 james1024 wrote: What do you do at the point where your mutas are popping as zerg vs a terran? I need sunken, but I don't wanna pay for em! And then how do I get time to get three hydra to ramp? I honestly have more luck with 2base ultra. Big picture wise, assuming you're a beginner, you get mutas to help establish your third for better economy/3rd gas to a good late game. How you go about that can vary. You use these mutas to harass Terran, keep them inside their base, and/or defend marine medic pushouts, all for the sake of buying time and establishing your third, and lurkers, your next line of defense, to get an even bigger economy. There are a few ways you can use Mutas. You can be really aggressive against Terran, harassing their mineral line and barracks while having sunkens back home (4-5 depending on terran's build to defend against a backstab. That way you're harming Terran's economy to get an advantage yourself economically. Then you can get lurkers to make a later third. The second way, usually the more popular way these days is to use them strictly defensively w/ lings to establish your third. How you do that entails a few tactics. You just skirt around the Terran's marines poking a bit behind them away from your 3rd to make them go back. Don't commit though to killing marines if you're gonna lose mutalisks. What's most important is to keep the threat alive. You should also go in between the main bio force and his base to threaten/deter reinforcements, hopefully opening an opportunity to either isolate a marine medic group and/or having him pull back to regroup. The way you get hydras to your 3rd base ramp is easy. After your first 9 mutas, you get the hydra den, then use your next round of larva for 2 mutas and 1 overlord. Then you simply let larvae hover for your 3rd hatchery and wait for hydra den to get lurker. By that time your natural hatchery will have 3 larvae which you can morph into hydras and rally to your 3rd base ramp. You don't do this if you're doing the harass heavy method with lots of sunkens. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
1. During the mechanic switch, are you supposed to slow down SV production? Why? Is it because the tanks cost too much? But isn't having a fleet of SVs a good thing since irradate is so powerful against defilers, lurkers, mutas, and ultras? I just watched flash vs. soulkey and flash got man handled when he went mech (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQVOBK26DHM). Why didn't he just stay on SVs and slow push with mass bio and a couple tanks? He had double Starport. 2. In PvZ, the gas timing is generally right when you put down the cybernetics. In the TvZ game I linked above, Flash takes his gas after starting the 3rd depot (25 supply). And then he makes an engineering bay when the refinery is nearly done. is that the timing for gas in TvZ? Or is there another cue and rule that I should follow? I am asking this question because it seems like when you go Rax FE in TvZ, you always 100% take the gas at 25 supply. I am wondering if this is true or if there is another viable build. 3. Again in the game above, I see Flash taking engineering bay for fast +1 and then going Academy. But why not take academy first and get a faster stim? I see why he went engi-bay first, since he was doing a +1 timing, but in what other circumstances would a terran go aca first? Or is there no real point going aca first? In my games, I've been going aca first since I don't need turrets that early and I like doing a medic stim push to force sunks. But my games are not 2500 MMR, so I am not sure if this is smart. 4. In TvP, I have like 6 control groups to control my army. Kinda like how flash does. He has two groups of tanks, 3 for vults (I think), and the rest in whatever. But what about TvZ bio? How does he group his units? Because it's a real mess when I play bio. So many damn marines and medics, it's like I'm playing Zerg. I noticed that he doesn't group the medics and marines together (which is smart). I tried doing this but I found it easier to just box shit as quickly as possible and group them to send them into battle. I am very curious how you veteran terrans do it. Thank you. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
2. i think pvz should be 15gate 16py 17gas 18core 19z flash is opening 5rax +1. +1 finishes around when 3hat muta reaches your base (~7:00), which makes marines much stronger against the standard 3hat muta. your other option is to open rax cc rax aca, which moves out before mutas spawn to force sunkens then backs off before mutas reach your base or wipe your marines 5rax +1 is strong against 3hat muta, rax cc rax is strong against 2hatch play in general. stim/range timings are about the same, but rax cc rax ends up with more marines in exchange for a delayed +1. 5rax +1: 9sup 11rax 14sup 18cc 22sup 24gas 26ebay 28aca timings: 5:15~5:30 ~8 marines 1 medic, 6:30~6:45 stim+range; 7:00 +1, ~24 mnm rax cc rax: 9sup 11rax 14sup 18cc 22sup 24rax 26gas 28aca timings: 5:15~5:30 move out, ~12 mmf, 6:30~6:45 stim+range 3. see above 4. i do 1 marines 2 medic 34 marines 56 tank/vessel edit: typo on bo | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On November 25 2017 02:44 Golgotha wrote: I have some questions about Terran versus Zerg. 1. During the mechanic switch, are you supposed to slow down SV production? Why? Is it because the tanks cost too much? But isn't having a fleet of SVs a good thing since irradate is so powerful against defilers, lurkers, mutas, and ultras? I just watched flash vs. soulkey and flash got man handled when he went mech (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQVOBK26DHM). Why didn't he just stay on SVs and slow push with mass bio and a couple tanks? He had double Starport. 2. In PvZ, the gas timing is generally right when you put down the cybernetics. In the TvZ game I linked above, Flash takes his gas after starting the 3rd depot (25 supply). And then he makes an engineering bay when the refinery is nearly done. is that the timing for gas in TvZ? Or is there another cue and rule that I should follow? I am asking this question because it seems like when you go Rax FE in TvZ, you always 100% take the gas at 25 supply. I am wondering if this is true or if there is another viable build. 3. Again in the game above, I see Flash taking engineering bay for fast +1 and then going Academy. But why not take academy first and get a faster stim? I see why he went engi-bay first, since he was doing a +1 timing, but in what other circumstances would a terran go aca first? Or is there no real point going aca first? In my games, I've been going aca first since I don't need turrets that early and I like doing a medic stim push to force sunks. But my games are not 2500 MMR, so I am not sure if this is smart. 4. In TvP, I have like 6 control groups to control my army. Kinda like how flash does. He has two groups of tanks, 3 for vults (I think), and the rest in whatever. But what about TvZ bio? How does he group his units? Because it's a real mess when I play bio. So many damn marines and medics, it's like I'm playing Zerg. I noticed that he doesn't group the medics and marines together (which is smart). I tried doing this but I found it easier to just box shit as quickly as possible and group them to send them into battle. I am very curious how you veteran terrans do it. Thank you. 1. You are supposed to slow down Science Vessel production to prioritize the production of factories to make vultures and siege tanks because factories and siege tanks cost a lot of gas. You could have a larger science vessel fleet in exchange for less mines across the map and a slower build to a critical tank count. You'd just need to stick to bio if you wanted to break zerg in a constant pressure style. Mech switch is good because the mines give map control, allow you to mass expand, and it's easier to get to a critical tank count than bio tank. If you did push with vessels and bio, it's not guaranteed you'd defeat a zerg who has dark swarm and lurkers. Even w/ a large vessel count zerg finds ways to just outproduce the units you irradiate, scourge/plague vessels, etc. Ultralisks are especially deadly to mass bio. I don't mean to sound like biotank or SK Terran is bad though, just that it presents an alternative play but has its own weaknesses like mech. Mech is a slow death alternative that shines w/ its cost effectiveness, boosted from the early map control given by the bio opening. I'm not an expert though so yes. yes. and yes. 2. You just take the gas when you can afford it, having all cc's/barracks producing constantly. Sometimes when Flash knows he can cut corners he'll cut marines to get an ultra fast gas for an even faster +1. 3. This is like a math equation. You have to ask yourself how many resources in the immediate/long term situation am I going to accost Zerg by going academy first? I have security from early ling attacks, and force out 2-3 sunks. With +1 it's a long-term investment. With +1 weapons you're more vulnerable to early ling attacks, but force the zerg to make x number more zerglings, sunks, and kill more units generally when that +1 kicks in. You also get a faster +1 armor, great for breaking lurkers because it takes 3 hits now to kill marines and in general do a lot more damage to zerg units. I'm sure shalashaska's post about how many less hits a marine needs to kill zerg units with +1 should come in handy. It's just a tradeoff you have to ask yourself which one you want to take. Generally speaking, +1 is incredibly powerful and far more than academy first imo. There might be some variables I am not counting though. 4. You just have 1-4 for marines, 5 for medics, 6 for science vessels. You do the hold shift+box thing to keep restoring your groups to full control groups. Just practice it a lot and you'll get fast at it. To fit more, you just put medics to 6 and science vessels to 7, although I usuaully stop at 4. I find I use the excess marines/medics well just establishing expansions, using them for drops, maybe a few of them around the map to establish map control. Edit: The post above me raises some good points on number 2 that my answer is a bit simplified for. I just want to add that getting a faster +1 also means a faster +1 armor. Generally though the faster you can get it, the better. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
I have another question but this time it is about a specific TvP scenario. Let's say that you are on the standard 3 base mechanic and the Protoss is on 2 base. You are clearly winning and have a massive tank/vult ground army, you push out and you will surely win. But your scans missed something, carriers. There are now 4-5 carriers beating down on your vults and tanks that are sieged very close to the natural (just about to reach it). 1. What do you do? Do you unsiege and try to push the Protoss natural and do as much damage as possible? Or do you high tail it back? The protoss still has a decent ground force of zealots and goons, on top of the carrier force. So I can't just A-move and expect to win. I have to siege and push them back. Do I sacrifice my ground force, knowing they will die to carriers, and try to kill of the protoss ground army and hope my goliaths clean up once I have enough of them? Sacrificing my ground force also gives me time to rack up the gol numbers. 2. Of course you also start massing goliaths, but how do you position the goliaths and use them in a way so that the carriers aren't cliffbombing you and the goliaths are all freaking out in a very cramped base. My problem is that I don't really know how to get the most out of my goliaths. I have enough of them, but since I use them poorly, their capabilities are severely hampered. Sending them to chase carriers also seems like a bad idea. It's a wild goose chase and basically suicide if the area is cramped and the gols cannot clump together. Well, in the above scenario, I feel like I made the wrong move. As soon as I saw the carriers, I just unsieged and tried to kill the protoss natural. I lost all my tanks and vults. Back home, I had all my facs pumping goliaths. Carriers attack my backdoor 3rd (this is outsider), so I send my goliaths there. They do very little to defend that base and the carriers just kite all day long. Carriers back off and I send all my goliaths to attack the protoss natural again. This time I get stopped by a small ground force with carrier support. my Goliaths chase off the carriers in the open field, but they die to zealots and goons. In hindsight, I think saving my tanks would have been the right move. Run home with my tanks and sacrifice my 3rd. Push back out with the tanks once my goliaths are massed. That way, the carriers are forced to concentrate on my push and can't keep on attacking my bases. Still, the hardest thing for me is knowing how to position my goliaths so that they don't get picked off while inside my base. they are all bumping into shit and cannot be massed together due to limited space. That's how they get picked off one by one and I lose my goliath count. How do you folks manage? Do you reset rally points, build turrets, wait for a specific number of goliaths, lift buildings, etc.? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8595 Posts
youre on 3 bases vs 2 bases, so the 2nd thing to do would have been to slow his 3rd base from going up. send a couple vultures to mine the 3rd expo and sit there to pick off the probe that comes to build. if toss is good he'll come with units but its still the best you can do at that point. in the midst of this obviously you are trying to get turrets and goliaths up. if he comes for your 3rd with the carriers you either stall and hope that your goliaths come quickly enough to defend, or you just buy enough time so that the carriers cant advance on another base immediately after. losing the 3rd is more likely though. after this its pretty hard to say what you could do. by the time you have a sizable goliath army he will also have maybe another 4 carriers and you would be a base down. assuming you still have your main tank army, you should be forcing the carriers away from your base. your option then is to split the map and try and win a war of attrition or just trade bases if you know you have a massive well upgraded goliath army that could take the carriers on if he tries to man fight. tbh though id say discovering carriers when hes already got 4-5 means its a lost game for the terran. you would have to be significantly better than your opponent to claw your way back. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
In my humble opinion, protosses are mistaken in the correct strategy against terran. I don't understand why they think attacking into terran is a good idea. I understand that when they reach 200 supply they want to trade inefficiently and then remax faster to gain a lead but it just doesn't work out when considering the economics of the situation. Instead of trading into the terran when maxed first, they should focus on establishing two production sites of approximately 15 gateways each. Protoss should not be the first to attack into terran, they should be preparing a counter attack as soon as terran moves out. They should be always trying to target the production site and also use recall tactics on the 4th+ bases. Also, turrets don't stop arbiter if they use a hallucination templar as they should. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 25 2017 15:39 evilfatsh1t wrote: saving your army would have been the first thing to do. unsiege and leg it home or to other areas of the map if you think youre gonna lose all your units being chased down anyway. youre on 3 bases vs 2 bases, so the 2nd thing to do would have been to slow his 3rd base from going up. send a couple vultures to mine the 3rd expo and sit there to pick off the probe that comes to build. if toss is good he'll come with units but its still the best you can do at that point. in the midst of this obviously you are trying to get turrets and goliaths up. if he comes for your 3rd with the carriers you either stall and hope that your goliaths come quickly enough to defend, or you just buy enough time so that the carriers cant advance on another base immediately after. losing the 3rd is more likely though. after this its pretty hard to say what you could do. by the time you have a sizable goliath army he will also have maybe another 4 carriers and you would be a base down. assuming you still have your main tank army, you should be forcing the carriers away from your base. your option then is to split the map and try and win a war of attrition or just trade bases if you know you have a massive well upgraded goliath army that could take the carriers on if he tries to man fight. tbh though id say discovering carriers when hes already got 4-5 means its a lost game for the terran. you would have to be significantly better than your opponent to claw your way back. got it, thanks! awesome info and yeah I need to scout a lot better. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28525 Posts
On November 25 2017 21:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Yeah I just watched Last play TvP on his stream and I just have to voice my concern as I am seeing far too often the same patterns. In my humble opinion, protosses are mistaken in the correct strategy against terran. I don't understand why they think attacking into terran is a good idea. I understand that when they reach 200 supply they want to trade inefficiently and then remax faster to gain a lead but it just doesn't work out when considering the economics of the situation. Instead of trading into the terran when maxed first, they should focus on establishing two production sites of approximately 15 gateways each. Protoss should not be the first to attack into terran, they should be preparing a counter attack as soon as terran moves out. They should be always trying to target the production site and also use recall tactics on the 4th+ bases. Also, turrets don't stop arbiter if they use a hallucination templar as they should. Yeah agreed entirely on this. Protosses tend to just attack into the terran to trade unfavorably once they are at 200-200 and have enough money for a production cycle or two, but there's no point in that. On most maps it seems like a far superior strategy to take two distinctly different production sites so terran has to choose which one to attack into, and then go all out on the backstab when they go for one of them. P full army can't fight full terran army, but it can destroy half terran army. Hallucinations are underused in the late late game, too, and this would allow p to recall further into t bases to avoid mine fields. EMP does counter though, so it's not something that always works, at least the best koreans tend to have vessels in the important spots. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia892 Posts
When not, he will take extra bases, add extra gateways, HTs, move probes from original bases to the new ones sometimes entirely(so that he doesn't take too much army supply in probes, but focuses on mining difficult to hold/easy to push expansions, and retreat probes when push reach those bases and still mine), etc - and he won't make any serious commitment aggressive moves, until terran moves out. Watch Bisu play, and he'll charge around the first 200/200 almost every time, regardless of how solid T's setup is at the moment. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Playing at 4:3 is so much easier because you don't have to move your mouse as far etc... As you can see, when the game starts, his mouse cursor starts exactly over the CC and the minimap square clearly shows that this isn't 16: 9. ![[image loading]](http://i67.tinypic.com/fedrm1.png) | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On November 27 2017 00:48 StylishVODs wrote: When watching the stream of pretty much any ex pro, you can see that they're using HD but their screen isn't 16 : 9. They play at the old 4:3 screen with HD graphics. I can't seem to find out how to do this, could anyone enlighten me? Playing at 4:3 is so much easier because you don't have to move your mouse as far etc... As you can see, when the game starts, his mouse cursor starts exactly over the CC and the minimap square clearly shows that this isn't 16: 9. I think they're using the pill box option in graphics settings. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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