EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 362
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Vitlich
32 Posts
| ||
|
kogeT
Poland2037 Posts
On November 12 2017 21:49 Vitlich wrote: I've seen on Storks stream that after the game there is in chat a table displaying APM and EPM of both players. Anyone knows how can I get something like that? I'm particulary intrested in seeing my EPM without need of using some rep analyzer after each game. wDetector, i dont have a link though. | ||
|
evilfatsh1t
Australia8639 Posts
On November 12 2017 14:40 Moopower wrote: I'm talking about when protoss progamers have thousands in the bank, so some extra tech and upgrades would be a good investment if it means breaking the zerg and making your army more cost effecient to break late game zerg bases. To say zerg is never going to turtle is idiotic. They ALWAYS turtle against protoss, their building placement is always going to be the same evo chamber and hatcheries in front and sunken, spore and lurkers in the back. name me 1 game where protoss has "thousands" in the bank when he isnt already stomping the game anyway. no protoss in an even game will be floating that much resources. and no, zerg dont ALWAYS turtle against protoss. you are confusing ladder games with randoms to actual games against pros where they engage in mind games and mix things up so as not to play the same macro game for every bo5 they play. a 5 hatch hydra build and a 4 base turtle looks very similar until you actually see the difference in units. by then its already too late to start trying to either invest in corsairs to get a decent number or invest in dweb, when instead you could just get storm and a couple more ht or get reavers and or shuttles. if you gamble on them turtling and instead zerg starts running at you with speed+range upgrade on hydras, well good luck using dwebs effectively there. at best you win the engage but you lose your corsairs and therefore you lose vision/map control and open yourself up to a muta switch | ||
|
Slyzor
9 Posts
Edit: and of course +1 armor is great vs glaive wurm | ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
| ||
|
Slyzor
9 Posts
I mean medics have 1 armor and it takes ages to kill them so why not give 1 armor to marines? It should be so much easier to break sunken walls and lurkers on the ramp with +1 armor too. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28641 Posts
The fact is terrans used to favor +1 armor against zerg, but they changed to +1 attack a long time ago, and they haven't really gone back since. It's much better against zerglings, too (because you want to kill them before they get up close, not after.) As for getting +1 to break up lurker ramps, if you saw Flash vs Hero yesterday, you could see that Flash got 1-1 in time to break up the ramp to the third (game on fighting spirit) before a third lurker could join. So if zergs open muta, then getting +1 attack first and then +1 armor still leaves you with armor in time to bust lurkers. Sunken busts don't really happen that much anymore (and with muta splash helping out, it also wouldn't be that big of a benefit to have the +1 because a lot of your rines would be at 35-38 rather than 40 hp anyway. | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
The fact is terrans used to favor +1 armor against zerg, but they changed to +1 attack a long time ago, and they haven't really gone back since. It's much better against zerglings, too (because you want to kill them before they get up close, not after.) Curious, when roughly was the time period terrans switched to +1 attack?On November 12 2017 13:29 Dazed. wrote: Anyone?How fast do you focus on upgrades in a tvt? I have a friend who tries to get +2 often on only two base. Am I supposed to always keep pace with my enemies upgrades, or? | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28641 Posts
As for tvt I don't know the timing at all, but rushing for +2 makes a lot of sense. +2 tanks kill other tanks in 2 rather than 3 shots, which is obviously an absolutely massive difference. | ||
|
Sero
United States692 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28641 Posts
So getting it after securing your third sounds much better, even with it arguably being the most influential attack upgrade in the game. | ||
|
Highgamer
1405 Posts
I wouldn't suggest either to tailor your build order around getting +2 on 2 bases at all costs, but I wouldn't rule out this option given how dynamic the game can be. You could plan to "rush" for +2 if the situation allows for it, so you start your +1 relatively early, you should have the armory anyway in many cases. That's 100 gas that can sometimes be 'saved' somewhere else by skipping one tank, delaying scanners because you got information otherwise, delaying the starport or a vulture-upgrade... or it's just part of your build to invest the 100 gas and establish rather defensive siege-lines. You then have two minutes or so to see the game unfold and decide whether it's possible to throw down a quick sci.fac. in time or not and afford the gas, by building one round of vultures instead of gas-units e.g.. If oppo is playing not super aggressive and not super greedy, this might just be possible without any big risk for you and worthwhile in the long run. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
i think wraith-based builds delay +2 for quite a bit but i don't generally open wraiths it's probably one of the most meaningful upgrade benchmarks in the game next to +1 in pvz it makes breaking and holding siege lines so much easier generally i think you start armory after 2~3 facs and get sci facility on time to start +2. with 4fac1port or 5fac you'll usually be on or going up to 3base by the time +2 starts | ||
|
Jealous
10126 Posts
On November 04 2017 00:49 InDi wrote: 1. Wrong, you should always start an arbiter, then start researching energy right away, when it finishes you can get stasis, then recall (in the order you need them). At the time your 1st arbiter has enough energy for a stasis, the stasis upgrade should be completed. Your second arbiter (if you start it right after) will benefit from the energy upgrade already. Wrong, you only benefit from the energy upgrade if you wait for the upgrade to finish THEN start your next Arbiter. | ||
|
Moopower
128 Posts
On November 13 2017 13:37 evilfatsh1t wrote: name me 1 game where protoss has "thousands" in the bank when he isnt already stomping the game anyway. no protoss in an even game will be floating that much resources. and no, zerg dont ALWAYS turtle against protoss. you are confusing ladder games with randoms to actual games against pros where they engage in mind games and mix things up so as not to play the same macro game for every bo5 they play. a 5 hatch hydra build and a 4 base turtle looks very similar until you actually see the difference in units. by then its already too late to start trying to either invest in corsairs to get a decent number or invest in dweb, when instead you could just get storm and a couple more ht or get reavers and or shuttles. if you gamble on them turtling and instead zerg starts running at you with speed+range upgrade on hydras, well good luck using dwebs effectively there. at best you win the engage but you lose your corsairs and therefore you lose vision/map control and open yourself up to a muta switch There are plenty of progamer games featured and you see their mineral and gas count in the thousands when they are maxed out and are trying to harass, deny further expos. You just made my point by admitting that 5 hatch hydra looks the same as 4 base turtle in terms of structure, I never talked about the unit compositions. Protoss will always have to deal with the same wall in type zerg base, and even if they don't have lurkers they will still have to break through the sunk line. It is rare that zerg does not have lurkers to defend any of their defending bases though. During mid to late game, zerg ALWAYS gets lurkers so it makes no sense why you bring up unit composition as if zerg chooses to go pure hydras all game. Tthey always switch to lurkers lots of lings all the time and hydras, and the occassional muta switch. Defiler late game with swarm with lurkers and ultras. | ||
|
Jealous
10126 Posts
On November 16 2017 11:59 Moopower wrote: There are plenty of progamer games featured and you see their mineral and gas count in the thousands when they are maxed out and are trying to harass, deny further expos. You just made my point by admitting that 5 hatch hydra looks the same as 4 base turtle in terms of structure, I never talked about the unit compositions. Protoss will always have to deal with the same wall in type zerg base, and even if they don't have lurkers they will still have to break through the sunk line. It is rare that zerg does not have lurkers to defend any of their defending bases though. During mid to late game, zerg ALWAYS gets lurkers so it makes no sense why you bring up unit composition as if zerg chooses to go pure hydras all game. Tthey always switch to lurkers lots of lings all the time and hydras, and the occassional muta switch. Defiler late game with swarm with lurkers and ultras. I think that 4 Base Turtle and 5 Hatch Hydra (6 is popular now as well) have a lot of differences, actually. With 5/6 Hatch Hydra you see that players are much more likely to take their natural 3rd than the natural of the other main. This in itself changes the way they have to defend all of these bases. Also, because they are mass producing Hydralisks, they usually do not invest as heavily in static defense, and I've noticed that they tend to make their walls more movement-friendly for Hydralisks (not perfectly tight like they are in 4 Base Turtle). But, since you are talking about the late-late game, let us consider the fact that it is usually Gas that Protoss are hungry for after having spent so much of it on Reavers/Archons/Templar/Dragoons/Obs to keep up with Zerg's shifts in composition. I don't think I'd ever consider the short-lived Disruption Web and the fleet of Corsairs worth the gas expenditure when I can just have Archons and Templar camping my Reavers which pummel down the Zerg's static defense. | ||
|
evilfatsh1t
Australia8639 Posts
On November 16 2017 11:59 Moopower wrote: There are plenty of progamer games featured and you see their mineral and gas count in the thousands when they are maxed out and are trying to harass, deny further expos. You just made my point by admitting that 5 hatch hydra looks the same as 4 base turtle in terms of structure, I never talked about the unit compositions. Protoss will always have to deal with the same wall in type zerg base, and even if they don't have lurkers they will still have to break through the sunk line. It is rare that zerg does not have lurkers to defend any of their defending bases though. During mid to late game, zerg ALWAYS gets lurkers so it makes no sense why you bring up unit composition as if zerg chooses to go pure hydras all game. Tthey always switch to lurkers lots of lings all the time and hydras, and the occassional muta switch. Defiler late game with swarm with lurkers and ultras. wait....youre not even talking about the mid game? the only time you would EVER consider getting dwebs to break through static defense is during the mid game when you are on 2/3 base and no where near 200 army. if youre already sitting on a 200/200 army with floating resources and you are only now trying to break through a zerg base then i have news for you...youve probably already lost the game. and what jealous just said about wanting to use the gas in other units still applies anyways. you need reavers AND ht in a late game pvz. heck you could even use the gas in dt for the dark archons also. what do you plan on doing with dwebs when zerg is gonna bust out of his base in no time with ultraling and defilers with 4/5 bases fully saturated because you sat back doing nothing? also 5 hatch hydra and 4 base turtling are only similar in the way they open the builds, which is what i was talking about. at the point you want to be making a decision on whether to go for dwebs or not you probably wont have a good enough idea of what exactly zerg intends to do (turtle or try to control the map). by the time you find out its either too late to get dwebs or you could have dwebs against a mobile zerg army | ||
|
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
sure the Dwebs can be good and I think the fact that pros rarely put that out is because they will tend to avoid riskier or long return investment the thing is Dwebs are quite situational, AND there is the fact that you can hardly ever be too sure that your corsairs will still be alive by the time Dweb is researched. Because they die real real quick to a bunch of scourge/hydras/whatnot, so if you're using your corsairs mid-aggressively as "usual", you can hardly guarantee that there won't be a point where half your corsairs go poof and then you get half value for your long term situational investment despite this I think there is room to use it, especially in banked situation, just gotta think about it and do it ^_^ it's true it doesnt cost that much, if your economy is big its not big deal, just there is so much to do right. And it's not necessary to always do the single most all around efficient known thing~ | ||
|
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
| ||
|
shall_burn
252 Posts
Pros don't go for it because they play the most safe and efficient way, and d-webs aren't versatile. Then again, you won't have them by the time you really could have a use of them, and when you re 200, your army is alredy too powerful. I advocate corsairs and their webs 100% though, one of the most fun units to play for me. | ||
| ||
