On November 06 2017 16:22 Golgotha wrote: In pvz, when you open gate first, what is the correct BO after the gate? I usually keep making probes and make a single zealot before I get the nexus. Which is at 16/17. Then I make a pylon, forge, cannon, and cyber in that order. Of course it's a bit different depending on how many zealots I get, but I believe I am doing it wrong and would like to optimize.
I'm not a high-level Protoss by any means, but I've been using the Liquipedia Gateway-expand guide here. It seems somewhat outdated but OK as a baseline.
I have my own question about this, though:
When doing a Gateway-expand against Zerg, what is the proper response against a 9-pool with speed? Do I drop a forge at the wall and try to block with Probes + my first Zealot until I can get up cannons? Should I do that if it's a 4/5 pool? Or at that point do I have to block my ramp with the Zealot/Probes and sacrifice my Gate/Pylon?
I think completing your wall and getting a cannon up is the safest option against 9 pool speed. If your wall is one-hex tight, (Top right, bottom left on FS) sometimes you can play greedy and nexus before cannons. I guess it comes down to how confident you are in your micro. Moving out with your first zealot to scout/delay is an option, but it's pretty risky and should only be done if you have a one-hex tight wall. Against 4-5 pool, you should be pulling about 5-6 probes to fight with your zealot until your 2nd zealot arrives.
On November 06 2017 16:22 Golgotha wrote: In pvz, when you open gate first, what is the correct BO after the gate? I usually keep making probes and make a single zealot before I get the nexus. Which is at 16/17. Then I make a pylon, forge, cannon, and cyber in that order. Of course it's a bit different depending on how many zealots I get, but I believe I am doing it wrong and would like to optimize.
I'm not a high-level Protoss by any means, but I've been using the Liquipedia Gateway-expand guide here. It seems somewhat outdated but OK as a baseline.
I have my own question about this, though:
When doing a Gateway-expand against Zerg, what is the proper response against a 9-pool with speed? Do I drop a forge at the wall and try to block with Probes + my first Zealot until I can get up cannons? Should I do that if it's a 4/5 pool? Or at that point do I have to block my ramp with the Zealot/Probes and sacrifice my Gate/Pylon?
Regarding the reaction vs 5 pool, you can watch this game:
On November 04 2017 07:51 Dazed. wrote: Whats the standard amount of factories on 2 base for a tvt? How many machine shop? How fast do you typically get +1?
2 factories - minimum if you want to get quick third, 6 factories if you want to push/all-in from 2 bases. The amount of mashine shops = number of gas geysers you have. +1 timing can vary but if you want to get quick third you get armory after you order 3rd CC.
Edit: nvm, I though you asked abount TvP FailFish
Still in TvT it's kinda the same except you don't all-in from 2 bases ofc
On November 04 2017 07:51 Dazed. wrote: Whats the standard amount of factories on 2 base for a tvt? How many machine shop? How fast do you typically get +1?
5 factories is standard for 2 base. Count starport as a factory (if you're going to use it). 3 addons for tanks and 2 factories for vultures is a usual setup. On 3 base you can either go 7-8 factory or 5 factory + 2-3 starport.
1. In this vod, Reach somehow crushes Flash with a crazy headlong attack into Flash's tank line. Now, flash has a lot of tanks and I was left wondering how Reach was able to so easily break the tank line. What confuses me further is the fact that Reach went with a fast 3rd nexus before starting the attack. It wasn't even a 2 base attack. And Reach couldn't even do that much damage with the reaver.
What was it about Reach's engagement that allowed him to absolutely wreck the 3rd expansion? Is there a technique he used with the zealots?
2. Concerning Reach's hotkeys. I see that Reach hotkeys his gateways to maximize his macro potential. I think he has at least 3 gates on control groups. Is this actually the best way to play? I personally do not ctrl group gateways. I save ctrl groups for army and nexus. Nexus because constantly making probes is what helps me win games at the lower level. However, I want to learn what the pros do and see if changing my setup would help me improve.
Instead of ctrl grouping gateways, I set camera locations on my gateways so I can rapidly make units. But this is definitely not as fast as Reach's method. So what is Reach sacrificing so that he can ctrl group his gateways? For me, I can't sacrifice my current setup to ctrl group some gateways because I have to F2 and F3 to them anyways since I have like 15 gates to macro. What do you guys think? I'd like to hear your reasoning and experience. I am sure some of you have tried many different methods, which turned out best for you?
No mines, no vultures and from the looks of it no +1 attack. I think Reach also hit him right before his additional factories started to produce vultures.
In PvZ match up, why don't protoss progamers invest in dweb research? I mean if protoss has to have corsairs mid game where zerg can turtle on 4 bases, wouldn't it be smart to invest getting a fleet beacon and dweb to make those corsairs that much more utilized other than ol hunting, scouting and anti-air? I think it would help protoss atk heavily defended bases with sunk spore lurker def, making them useless for several seconds while goons hit them and zealots can just spot the goons for lings.
I see protoss supply is usually anywhere from 20-60 supply ahead of zerg and we don't blink an eye of how cost inefficient protoss units are against zerg defense, so why not instead of suiciding and trying to ram more units through the zerg defense, why can't the protoss invest in some dweb and make those corsairs have a bit more utility to help your ground army fight better?
Around the end of the Kespa era there was a ZvP build I saw a few times, which was kind of fake a 3 hatch hydra bust, where the zerg would quickly grab a lair with fast overlord speed and drop. He would then come back with a later push threatening to either knock down the front of elevator into to the main. I have been trying to work out a build order for this, but I haven't been very successful, and I haven't really been able to find any mention of this style in the liquipedia guides.
Does anyone have any ponters on ordering of the tech, or the timing to start massing hydras for the real push? Does this style struggle against the more speedlot heavy 2 base style that is common now? I always thought it looked like a super fun way to play.
Edit: I seem to remember Zero and/or Soulkey doing it in a televized match if that helps.
On November 09 2017 13:02 sheaRZerg wrote: Around the end of the Kespa era there was a ZvP build I saw a few times, which was kind of fake a 3 hatch hydra bust, where the zerg would quickly grab a lair with fast overlord speed and drop. He would then come back with a later push threatening to either knock down the front of elevator into to the main. I have been trying to work out a build order for this, but I haven't been very successful, and I haven't really been able to find any mention of this style in the liquipedia guides.
Does anyone have any ponters on ordering of the tech, or the timing to start massing hydras for the real push? Does this style struggle against the more speedlot heavy 2 base style that is common now? I always thought it looked like a super fun way to play.
Edit: I seem to remember Zero and/or Soulkey doing it in a televized match if that helps.
The general build is : normal 3 hatch lair->den (hidden if possible)->hydra speed->overspeed->hydra range-> overdrop. Try to make around 25 drones before starting hydra production, take 2nd gas when you put down hydra den. For televised games: Zero vs Jangbi Tving OSL semi final games 3 and 4 (not exactly the same build), lots of ZvPs on Pathfinder.
Edit: There is also a recent Bisu vs Soulkey rep in the replay section, showing a similar buld
Who can link me the vod of the very first time bisu using his special build against zerg please? I think it was a final of something like OSL or MSL but I cant find it.
On November 10 2017 04:43 ppp87 wrote: Who can link me the vod of the very first time bisu using his special build against zerg please? I think it was a final of something like OSL or MSL but I cant find it.
That's game one, the rest should be in the recommended, quality is abysmal but that's how things were back then.
On November 09 2017 13:02 sheaRZerg wrote: Around the end of the Kespa era there was a ZvP build I saw a few times, which was kind of fake a 3 hatch hydra bust, where the zerg would quickly grab a lair with fast overlord speed and drop. He would then come back with a later push threatening to either knock down the front of elevator into to the main. I have been trying to work out a build order for this, but I haven't been very successful, and I haven't really been able to find any mention of this style in the liquipedia guides.
Does anyone have any ponters on ordering of the tech, or the timing to start massing hydras for the real push? Does this style struggle against the more speedlot heavy 2 base style that is common now? I always thought it looked like a super fun way to play.
Edit: I seem to remember Zero and/or Soulkey doing it in a televized match if that helps.
i dont remember exactly whether the game in mind followed the exact build, but yellow (kong yellow) had a game where he beat bisu with an elevator on heartbreak ridge. faked a hydra bust and then dropped into the main but not sure if it was 3 hatch or 2.
On November 09 2017 08:44 Moopower wrote: In PvZ match up, why don't protoss progamers invest in dweb research? I mean if protoss has to have corsairs mid game where zerg can turtle on 4 bases, wouldn't it be smart to invest getting a fleet beacon and dweb to make those corsairs that much more utilized other than ol hunting, scouting and anti-air? I think it would help protoss atk heavily defended bases with sunk spore lurker def, making them useless for several seconds while goons hit them and zealots can just spot the goons for lings.
I see protoss supply is usually anywhere from 20-60 supply ahead of zerg and we don't blink an eye of how cost inefficient protoss units are against zerg defense, so why not instead of suiciding and trying to ram more units through the zerg defense, why can't the protoss invest in some dweb and make those corsairs have a bit more utility to help your ground army fight better?
because dweb is almost useless in any other scenario that isnt a zerg turtling on 4 bases. unless youre running a corsair reaver strat like bisu vs jd on andromeda, the likelihood of you seeing a large benefit to using dweb compared to the time and resources you have to invest in it is minimal. you dont always know that zerg is going to turtle behind 4 bases, so planning ahead to get fleet beacon and dweb is unlikely. even in the scenario where you realise zerg is just gonna sit in his base and turtle, you would prefer to get reavers or templar tech and shuttles for more flexibility and firepower at the same time. reavers can do a good job against zerg regardless of whether they turtle or not, same with ht and shuttle harrass. if you also decide to just go for the macro game without trying to all-in on a bust, you want to get a 3rd up asap rather than invest the same amount of money and even more time into dweb tech. mind you dwebs could probably work at lower levels. there are a lot of things pros dont do (such as zerg players' tendencies to NEVER get sunken/spore at each base for the dt defence), because at the highest level efficiency is key for everything and "proper" play should be enough to defend things
On November 10 2017 16:06 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont remember exactly whether the game in mind followed the exact build, but yellow (kong yellow) had a game where he beat bisu with an elevator on heartbreak ridge. faked a hydra bust and then dropped into the main but not sure if it was 3 hatch or 2.
I am not sure this qualifies as 2 or 3 hat... but anyway, we are blessed to have english subs for that game.
One time I saw this awesome game of Mazur keeping his Reavers alive against Ultras with Disruption Web. What's the trick of the Disruption Web micro? I couldn't for the life of me cast 4 Disruption Webs around a Reaver. It's like jedi micro.
How fast do you focus on upgrades in a tvt? I have a friend who tries to get +2 often on only two base. Am I supposed to always keep pace with my enemies upgrades, or?
On November 10 2017 16:06 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont remember exactly whether the game in mind followed the exact build, but yellow (kong yellow) had a game where he beat bisu with an elevator on heartbreak ridge. faked a hydra bust and then dropped into the main but not sure if it was 3 hatch or 2.
On November 09 2017 08:44 Moopower wrote: In PvZ match up, why don't protoss progamers invest in dweb research? I mean if protoss has to have corsairs mid game where zerg can turtle on 4 bases, wouldn't it be smart to invest getting a fleet beacon and dweb to make those corsairs that much more utilized other than ol hunting, scouting and anti-air? I think it would help protoss atk heavily defended bases with sunk spore lurker def, making them useless for several seconds while goons hit them and zealots can just spot the goons for lings.
I see protoss supply is usually anywhere from 20-60 supply ahead of zerg and we don't blink an eye of how cost inefficient protoss units are against zerg defense, so why not instead of suiciding and trying to ram more units through the zerg defense, why can't the protoss invest in some dweb and make those corsairs have a bit more utility to help your ground army fight better?
because dweb is almost useless in any other scenario that isnt a zerg turtling on 4 bases. unless youre running a corsair reaver strat like bisu vs jd on andromeda, the likelihood of you seeing a large benefit to using dweb compared to the time and resources you have to invest in it is minimal. you dont always know that zerg is going to turtle behind 4 bases, so planning ahead to get fleet beacon and dweb is unlikely. even in the scenario where you realise zerg is just gonna sit in his base and turtle, you would prefer to get reavers or templar tech and shuttles for more flexibility and firepower at the same time. reavers can do a good job against zerg regardless of whether they turtle or not, same with ht and shuttle harrass. if you also decide to just go for the macro game without trying to all-in on a bust, you want to get a 3rd up asap rather than invest the same amount of money and even more time into dweb tech. mind you dwebs could probably work at lower levels. there are a lot of things pros dont do (such as zerg players' tendencies to NEVER get sunken/spore at each base for the dt defence), because at the highest level efficiency is key for everything and "proper" play should be enough to defend things
I'm talking about when protoss progamers have thousands in the bank, so some extra tech and upgrades would be a good investment if it means breaking the zerg and making your army more cost effecient to break late game zerg bases. To say zerg is never going to turtle is idiotic. They ALWAYS turtle against protoss, their building placement is always going to be the same evo chamber and hatcheries in front and sunken, spore and lurkers in the back.
EPT
