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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system. |
On October 30 2016 21:05 opisska wrote:
All the doomsayers did so only for their own benefit - to sound smart or just to be assholes.
Yes, every single one of us did so only for our own benefit. Not because we don't want to see a game and franchise and scene we love go down the fucking drain after following it for over a decade. No sir-ee, everyone did it just to sound smart.
OR
HOW ABOUT THIS
Maybe instead of plugging your ears and circlejerking about how it's fine and on the up and up because Apollo said so even though very clearly numbers and retirements prove otherwise, maybe, just maybe, you should have fucking listened and helped pressure Blizzard to fucking do something right for once in 6 fucking years.
Jesus fucking christ.
It's Sunday afternoon and this somehow manages to be the dumbest post I've read all week.
Like literally you deserve to be banned for saying something this objectively incorrect and almost maliciously stupid.
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Or maybe you're too young to know what it's like to see something you have loved for almost 20 years slowly be disintegrated through incompetence, inaction and an endless torrent of bad decisions on the part of the people managing it, all of which is of course defended by lapdogs like you.
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So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game.
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Actually your insults don't matter opisska^^ The atmosphere around the game is so much fun that most people have left. Never talking about what's wrong isn't going to help, much less insulting those who do pretending Blizzard knows better despite the history, situation and arguments.
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On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game.
Do I want to criticize Bllizzard? No. it doesn't worth the time. I really don't give a f. Dead game--that's the truth.
User was warned for this post
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On October 30 2016 22:39 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game. Do I want to criticize Bllizzard? No. it doesn't worth the time. I really don't give a f. Dead game--that's the truth.
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On October 30 2016 21:58 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 21:05 opisska wrote:
All the doomsayers did so only for their own benefit - to sound smart or just to be assholes. Yes, every single one of us did so only for our own benefit. Not because we don't want to see a game and franchise and scene we love go down the fucking drain after following it for over a decade. No sir-ee, everyone did it just to sound smart. OR HOW ABOUT THIS Maybe instead of plugging your ears and circlejerking about how it's fine and on the up and up because Apollo said so even though very clearly numbers and retirements prove otherwise, maybe, just maybe, you should have fucking listened and helped pressure Blizzard to fucking do something right for once in 6 fucking years. Jesus fucking christ. It's Sunday afternoon and this somehow manages to be the dumbest post I've read all week. Like literally you deserve to be banned for saying something this objectively incorrect and almost maliciously stupid.
Great post. The community has pretty much adopted the abusive wife approach to this whole situation.
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On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game.
I as an individual maybe not, but when thousands of people have had the same complaints for over 6 years, and most of them have either never been addressed or were fixed in such a weird way that we wish we'd never asked for them in the first place...
The only childish thing here is to put your fingers in your ears and pretend everything's fine like that dog in the burning room.
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Thanks to the collapsing KR scene we will hear in every tournament in the future how much foreigners have caught up.
Thats going to be great.
(I hope Blizz and Kespa and rest of the teams get together and try to give a few KR players fixed, longterm contracts. That should give us at least a few players with a careless mind to play sc2 at 100%.)
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On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game.
Its ironic that you call him childish.
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Russian Federation367 Posts
This could make korean scbw scene huge again. Lets pray to our Gods that this will happen and we will be able to see greatest players playing real Starcraft, not the parody we've seen last 2 addons.
User was warned for this post
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On October 31 2016 06:21 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game. Blizzard has shown some great competence and insight on how to run their games. I mean just look at diablo 3 and now starcraft 2. How both Blizzard and TL have treated this not so surprising outcome is eerily similar to the dog in burning house meme.
You might want to add the stillbirth that is Heroes of the Storm (had its 15 minutes now no one plays it anymore, certainly nowhere near on the same level as the top 3 MOBAs). Even Hearthstone despite its massive popularity constantly attracts the ire of its players with the same mistakes they've made in SC2, like letting overpowered decks run rampant for months before nerfing cards into the ground where they're no longer playable at all. (people who have been around since WoL will understand what I'm getting at)
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On October 31 2016 07:07 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2016 06:21 Scrubwave wrote:On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game. Blizzard has shown some great competence and insight on how to run their games. I mean just look at diablo 3 and now starcraft 2. How both Blizzard and TL have treated this not so surprising outcome is eerily similar to the dog in burning house meme. You might want to add the stillbirth that is Heroes of the Storm (had its 15 minutes now no one plays it anymore, certainly nowhere near on the same level as the top 3 MOBAs). Even Hearthstone despite its massive popularity constantly attracts the ire of its players with the same mistakes they've made in SC2, like letting overpowered decks run rampant for months before nerfing cards into the ground where they're no longer playable at all. (people who have been around since WoL will understand what I'm getting at)
Actually their announcement for 2017 for HotS looks pretty decent, the one for HS as well. Something like the HotS model for SC2 would actually be a pretty good solution.
Just from a viewer pov: I think LotV is the best iteration of SC2. That doesn't excuse many things that went wrong in the past of course and I'm very sad about ProLeague.
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sc2 scene / media really put their heads in the sand as we say where I'm from. This kind of censorship not allowing people to express their frustration towards the direction the game (which is the second or third arguably best RTS of all time still...) is one of the reason why I lost a lot of respect for TL.
When I created my account here I thought oh great a place where you can talk about SC with other people who share similar interests. Now I feel most of the time all I read are either poorly written / non-constructive criticisms or worst, people defending everything Blizzard or the all-mighty "starcraft superstars" at all costs.
How about some objectivity and some valid arguments? Thanks sérieux.
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On October 31 2016 07:07 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2016 06:21 Scrubwave wrote:On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game. Blizzard has shown some great competence and insight on how to run their games. I mean just look at diablo 3 and now starcraft 2. How both Blizzard and TL have treated this not so surprising outcome is eerily similar to the dog in burning house meme. You might want to add the stillbirth that is Heroes of the Storm (had its 15 minutes now no one plays it anymore, certainly nowhere near on the same level as the top 3 MOBAs). Even Hearthstone despite its massive popularity constantly attracts the ire of its players with the same mistakes they've made in SC2, like letting overpowered decks run rampant for months before nerfing cards into the ground where they're no longer playable at all. (people who have been around since WoL will understand what I'm getting at)
The problem is that Blizzard has a reputation of listening to the community. In competitive games like Starcraft or competitive trading card games like Hearthstone you set your own rules. Listening to the community will just give you a product that aims to please everyone but will end up doing the exact opposite because it does not 100% fulfill every player category's expectations.
In terms of trading card games Blizzard could learn a thing or two from Wizards of the Coast. Sets are designed 2 years in advance (!), released 3 to 4 times per year and contain usually between 200 and 300 new cards and some reprints from older sets. This means that each year players get a ton of new cards to make decks with, and that very few cards are really dominant or remain dominant for very long (those cards either rotate out or get countered by new ones). Those that are overpowered end up on a ban list fairly quickly (such as the artifact lands from Mirrodin or Jace, The Mind Sculptor). This doesn't mean that people can't buy those cards anymore, just that those cards are no longer allowed during sanctioned events. Also WotC is pretty unambivalent about their target customers: people who enjoy complex trading card games either on a casual or a competitive level. The products they publish reflect that.
Blizzard, on the other hand, seems to have a hard time doing that. Diablo 3 was first casualised to a great extent, only to be turned into a more hardcore game later on. Starcraft 2 was launched as a hardcore eSports title, with Blizzard afterwards trying its hardest to make it appeal more to less competitive gaming while at the same time making the game more complex with each new expansion (active abilities for every unit ramping up the APM requirements to ridiculous levels). Heroes of the Storm was a casualised version of a genre that almost perfectly blends casual and highly competitive play, and attempted to break into a scene that was already fully saturated to begin with. Overwatch, on the other hand, did nail it almost perfectly. I can't help but think that Blizzard has just been throwing stuff at a wall the past couple of years, and hoped that something would stick. What stuck was Hearthstone, a simplified version of Magic: The Gathering that ended up putting Blizzard in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position with regards to its playerbase, and Overwatch, which is an all-round succes.
IMO Blizzard has had a lot of trouble actually picking a target demographic for their games, and sticking to their guns. This is mainly explained by the fact that they have a reputation of caring about customer feedback and as such being afraid to just do what they themselves think is right for their games.
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On October 31 2016 01:18 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Thanks to the collapsing KR scene we will hear in every tournament in the future how much foreigners have caught up.
Thats going to be great.
(I hope Blizz and Kespa and rest of the teams get together and try to give a few KR players fixed, longterm contracts. That should give us at least a few players with a careless mind to play sc2 at 100%.)
ikr.
WCS brought Foreigners far closer to Koreans, as predicted! It worked!
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You know the real life doomsayers that every year says that the world will end, will eventually be right one day. You can keep going on and on about how the game is dead, but please don't.. enjoy it while you can, I know I will. And when one day planet Earth dies, hopefully we will have found other planets to go to and hopefully there will be a new RTS.
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On October 31 2016 21:18 ejozl wrote:
You know the real life doomsayers that every year says that the world will end, will eventually be right one day. You can keep going on and on about how the game is dead, but please don't.. enjoy it while you can, I know I will. And when one day planet Earth dies, hopefully we will have found other planets to go to and hopefully there will be a new RTS.
This is the dumbest analogy I've ever seen.
Please put more thought into your posts.
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On October 31 2016 20:20 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2016 07:07 207aicila wrote:On October 31 2016 06:21 Scrubwave wrote:On October 30 2016 22:06 opisska wrote:
So you seriously believe that you know better than the whole of Blizzard and that your rational view of the situation could save the situation if only people listened to you? You really don't realize how laughably childish that is?
Please wake up and realize that you do not matter at all, that you are not helping anything and the only effect your great reasonability has is degrading the fun atmosphere around the game. Blizzard has shown some great competence and insight on how to run their games. I mean just look at diablo 3 and now starcraft 2. How both Blizzard and TL have treated this not so surprising outcome is eerily similar to the dog in burning house meme. You might want to add the stillbirth that is Heroes of the Storm (had its 15 minutes now no one plays it anymore, certainly nowhere near on the same level as the top 3 MOBAs). Even Hearthstone despite its massive popularity constantly attracts the ire of its players with the same mistakes they've made in SC2, like letting overpowered decks run rampant for months before nerfing cards into the ground where they're no longer playable at all. (people who have been around since WoL will understand what I'm getting at) The problem is that Blizzard has a reputation of listening to the community. In competitive games like Starcraft or competitive trading card games like Hearthstone you set your own rules. Listening to the community will just give you a product that aims to please everyone but will end up doing the exact opposite because it does not 100% fulfill every player category's expectations. In terms of trading card games Blizzard could learn a thing or two from Wizards of the Coast. Sets are designed 2 years in advance (!), released 3 to 4 times per year and contain usually between 200 and 300 new cards and some reprints from older sets. This means that each year players get a ton of new cards to make decks with, and that very few cards are really dominant or remain dominant for very long (those cards either rotate out or get countered by new ones). Those that are overpowered end up on a ban list fairly quickly (such as the artifact lands from Mirrodin or Jace, The Mind Sculptor). This doesn't mean that people can't buy those cards anymore, just that those cards are no longer allowed during sanctioned events. Also WotC is pretty unambivalent about their target customers: people who enjoy complex trading card games either on a casual or a competitive level. The products they publish reflect that. Blizzard, on the other hand, seems to have a hard time doing that. Diablo 3 was first casualised to a great extent, only to be turned into a more hardcore game later on. Starcraft 2 was launched as a hardcore eSports title, with Blizzard afterwards trying its hardest to make it appeal more to less competitive gaming while at the same time making the game more complex with each new expansion (active abilities for every unit ramping up the APM requirements to ridiculous levels). Heroes of the Storm was a casualised version of a genre that almost perfectly blends casual and highly competitive play, and attempted to break into a scene that was already fully saturated to begin with. Overwatch, on the other hand, did nail it almost perfectly. I can't help but think that Blizzard has just been throwing stuff at a wall the past couple of years, and hoped that something would stick. What stuck was Hearthstone, a simplified version of Magic: The Gathering that ended up putting Blizzard in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position with regards to its playerbase, and Overwatch, which is an all-round succes. IMO Blizzard has had a lot of trouble actually picking a target demographic for their games, and sticking to their guns. This is mainly explained by the fact that they have a reputation of caring about customer feedback and as such being afraid to just do what they themselves think is right for their games.
TL;DR: SC2 rode too much on excitement brought by BW offering too little of it's own, depends too much on people being a face of it, also the game itself does not teach you how to play.
I might also add that StarCraft II forever had this problem of being a continuation of something - thanks to that it never really had a chance to be a game on it's own, if it makes sense. Also it depended on the idea of esport, and therefore on many personalities largely from BW scene, especially Korean. It is tied to Brood War at every step, not only game, but also community-wise. There was a significant loss of interest when IdrA left, there was a significant loss of interest when Flash left too (but also when he turned out to not perform that well in SC2 as he did in BW in my opinion). I think the decline could be completely avoided if some of the personalities stuck with the game. Can you imagine the scene with IdrA continuing to be a show host? Flash, Jaedong becoming a coach? State of the Game being continued? Day9 keeping doing dailies (xD)? I'm not saying all of things like that happening outside of Korea would save Proleague but the scene would certainly be completely different, there would not be this fucking annoying to unimaginable levels ded game fucking meme which is partially responsible for the situation. There will be a huge interest decline too when Tasteless or Artosis (or both) move on to something else, even though it won't happen anytime soon. Mocking SC2 for years by the mysterious "BW elitists" and stupid people didn't help either. "Your" game will be "ded" too with big names leaving for good, you'll see.
Gameplay-wise, SC2 followed Brood War too much by having zero introduction for beginners except on how to select and control units and buildings. Brood War in Korea was a phenomenon of it's own, I don't really know how exactly it got so popular besides being just a cool thing back then (I think) and grew out of that sparking dedication and desire to know how the game works so it kind of didn't need a multiplayer tutorial.
In SC2 nothing was self-explanatory from the start like it is in other popular games right now and I think it's a terrible user experience decision. Too big part of the gameplay and learning experience is revolving around trial end error with error often meaning a complete loss. SC2 had and still has just a Brood War framework with it's own style on top of it, meaning you have a base, workers and a tech tree, now go kill the other guy. Nothing is explained, especially with the fact that campaigns are a completely different experience than multiplayer, different as it was in Brood War - in SC1 and Brood War campaigns you didn't have units that didn't exist in the multiplayer (with very few exceptions, like DTs before Brood War), besides hero units. Basically all of the gameplay rules were the same regarding unit mechanics so it could serve as a decent introduction to the game with the fact that you were gradually given more and more units to a point that you have all that exist in multiplayer.
Learning process is entirely skipped in SC2 and beginners are left to themselves, you can't count on campaign to teach you how to remotely take care of the game in multiplayer. If beginners want to have fun (meaning know how to play and know why things happen one way or the other) they have to reach somewhere out of the game and it takes a ton of dedication, compared to picking up other games.
But my last point is also debatable since if I was to start playing League I would have to know which champions do what, which I can expect to play against, what items there are, which ones I need and it would took some time (dedication) for me to pick it up.
Most importantly, the game is not fucking dead at all. It needs tweaking though.
EDIT: when I think of it IdrA made a mistake by being so angry at the game and leaving it completely, he was worth so much as a personality. But if he hated the game so much then it's fine. He'd be rich by now though lol
EDIT 2: imagine IdrA on the couch at BlizzCon between the games, I'm sure people in some alternate reality are going to have fun lol
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