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SC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband - Pag…

Forum Index > SC2 General
1381 CommentsPost a Reply
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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
Primelot
Profile Joined January 2014
51 Posts
October 23 2016 13:25 GMT
#1241
Every Realistic thinking Person knew Korea will blew off, it was just a matter of Time. You can't have Teams with teamhouses with x Players and with that Viewers. It's just the truth. I remember the whole Blizzard and Kespa Beef and it really really hurted SC2. So your Homemarket doesn't like your product and we still got 6 Years of great SC2 its quite the achivement i think. And now Korea is like it should have been and Kespa is out of it too, not too bad. I'am Optimistic for Korea it will now be a sustainanle Scene not like the years before but with it's own flair
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
October 23 2016 13:40 GMT
#1242
Well if you look at it from the bright side the skill difference between korean and western players will diminish.
Ziggy
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
South Korea2105 Posts
October 23 2016 13:43 GMT
#1243
The skill ceiling fluctuates over time, that is natural. The relative skill of the highest ranked players compared to the average level of the scene shouldn't change much, though. That's why winning a StarLeague, for instance, doesn't matter if it was won 15 or 5 years ago.
WriterDefeating a sandwich only makes it tastier. @imjustziggy
WidowMineHero
Profile Joined September 2014
New Zealand143 Posts
October 23 2016 13:47 GMT
#1244
Wonder where the players are heading now, hope some of them can stay around.
"Time won't change anything, I will."
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
October 23 2016 14:03 GMT
#1245
On October 23 2016 22:43 ZiggyPG wrote:
The skill ceiling fluctuates over time, that is natural. The relative skill of the highest ranked players compared to the average level of the scene shouldn't change much, though. That's why winning a StarLeague, for instance, doesn't matter if it was won 15 or 5 years ago.

That's only true if you assume that the general competitiveness of a scene does not change. It does though, at the start of sc2 it was basically an amateur scene at best, anyone who did more like Mvp, Nestea, etc had a huge advantage.
After the Kespa switch it suddenly became a lot more professional, proleague alone meant that players had to be a lot more prepared all the time.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
October 23 2016 14:19 GMT
#1246
On October 23 2016 18:55 Thouhastmail wrote:
http://m.ytn.co.kr/news_view.php?s_mcd=0107&key=201610230001073924&pos=

oov, "I've devoted myself to this for almost 20 yrs. I won't call myself victim; we (*this scene) had a sense of ownership and regarded this as our job, work and home."


I can tell you that he is absolutely not the only one. This was something we all "owned" and made ours. In the sense of the history of this league, I came in VERY late in being involved (2014). But when I got to work with the people who have been part of this since its beginning, I was able to see how much everyone REALLY cared about this tournament. It gave me energy, passion.. Whatever term you want to use for it. It's sad to see how many people are going to lose their jobs over this.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
Ziggy
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
South Korea2105 Posts
October 23 2016 14:27 GMT
#1247
On October 23 2016 23:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2016 22:43 ZiggyPG wrote:
The skill ceiling fluctuates over time, that is natural. The relative skill of the highest ranked players compared to the average level of the scene shouldn't change much, though. That's why winning a StarLeague, for instance, doesn't matter if it was won 15 or 5 years ago.

That's only true if you assume that the general competitiveness of a scene does not change. It does though, at the start of sc2 it was basically an amateur scene at best, anyone who did more like Mvp, Nestea, etc had a huge advantage.
After the Kespa switch it suddenly became a lot more professional, proleague alone meant that players had to be a lot more prepared all the time.


People dedicated to the game will always train more than others and that's why the relative skill remains pretty much the same. An OSL in 2001 = an OSL in 2011, the title remains the same despite the competitive scene shifting. On top of an influx of sponsors in those 10 years and the improvement of training conditions people also figured things out. Before Bisu no Protoss knew how to fast expand vs Zerg. After he figured out a way, it all became obvious. The message I'm attempting to convey might be perplexing, but I think it's fairly instinctive.
WriterDefeating a sandwich only makes it tastier. @imjustziggy
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
October 23 2016 17:19 GMT
#1248
A foreigner wins a korean tournament and the korean scene collapses...
207aicila
Profile Joined January 2015
1237 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-23 18:34:11
October 23 2016 18:33 GMT
#1249
On October 24 2016 02:19 raga4ka wrote:
A foreigner wins a korean tournament and the korean scene collapses...


NA Toss won the 1st OSL to christen the scene, NA Toss came back to win the last Kespa cup and end the scene.

Almost poetic when you think about it.
mfw people who never followed BW speak about sAviOr as if they know anything... -___-''''
TL+ Member
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10156 Posts
October 23 2016 20:10 GMT
#1250
On October 23 2016 22:40 MockHamill wrote:
Well if you look at it from the bright side the skill difference between korean and western players will diminish.

Yes! Now Koreans will finally be bad enough for foreigners to beat them consistently! Who needs pinnacle play anyway? Not like quality of players matters much to the success of a game, it's about storylines and nationalism more than anything.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
207aicila
Profile Joined January 2015
1237 Posts
October 23 2016 23:15 GMT
#1251
On October 24 2016 05:10 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2016 22:40 MockHamill wrote:
Well if you look at it from the bright side the skill difference between korean and western players will diminish.

Yes! Now Koreans will finally be bad enough for foreigners to beat them consistently! Who needs pinnacle play anyway? Not like quality of players matters much to the success of a game, it's about storylines and nationalism more than anything.


Sadly with a lot of the posts I've seen recently, it's pretty much true. Disgusting honestly that this is what's left of the community.
mfw people who never followed BW speak about sAviOr as if they know anything... -___-''''
TL+ Member
verecunda
Profile Joined July 2015
Korea (South)121 Posts
October 24 2016 10:44 GMT
#1252
On October 23 2016 23:19 Wolf wrote:

oov, "I've devoted myself to this for almost 20 yrs. I won't call myself victim; we (*this scene) had a sense of ownership and regarded this as our job, work and home."

I can tell you that he is absolutely not the only one. This was something we all "owned" and made ours. In the sense of the history of this league, I came in VERY late in being involved (2014). But when I got to work with the people who have been part of this since its beginning, I was able to see how much everyone REALLY cared about this tournament. It gave me energy, passion.. Whatever term you want to use for it. It's sad to see how many people are going to lose their jobs over this.



Hear, hear. It was an honor to hear you casting in Proleague.
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
October 24 2016 11:22 GMT
#1253
On October 23 2016 23:19 Wolf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2016 18:55 Thouhastmail wrote:
http://m.ytn.co.kr/news_view.php?s_mcd=0107&key=201610230001073924&pos=

oov, "I've devoted myself to this for almost 20 yrs. I won't call myself victim; we (*this scene) had a sense of ownership and regarded this as our job, work and home."


I can tell you that he is absolutely not the only one. This was something we all "owned" and made ours. In the sense of the history of this league, I came in VERY late in being involved (2014). But when I got to work with the people who have been part of this since its beginning, I was able to see how much everyone REALLY cared about this tournament. It gave me energy, passion.. Whatever term you want to use for it. It's sad to see how many people are going to lose their jobs over this.


wolf my man

what are you going to be up to now? please stick around!!
maru lover forever
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
October 24 2016 18:00 GMT
#1254
Do we know what the coaches will do ? H.O.T ? Oov ? Stork ?
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
Thouhastmail
Profile Joined March 2015
Korea (North)876 Posts
October 25 2016 00:04 GMT
#1255
On October 25 2016 03:00 FFW_Rude wrote:
Do we know what the coaches will do ? H.O.T ? Oov ? Stork ?


I assume Stork will do his duty.
"Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people we personally dislike"
LOcDowN
Profile Joined February 2003
United States1015 Posts
October 25 2016 00:52 GMT
#1256
On October 24 2016 03:33 207aicila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2016 02:19 raga4ka wrote:
A foreigner wins a korean tournament and the korean scene collapses...


NA Toss won the 1st OSL to christen the scene, NA Toss came back to win the last Kespa cup and end the scene.

Almost poetic when you think about it.


Haha. Wow.
fronkschnonk
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany622 Posts
October 25 2016 21:46 GMT
#1257
On October 20 2016 19:02 Arceus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2016 18:24 fronkschnonk wrote:
On October 18 2016 17:14 MarthTV wrote:
So we´ve finally reached that point.

Kespa should have never switched from BW to SC2. In retrospect it only hurt both scenes in Korea. SC2 was doing fine without Kespa und BW was depending on it.
Still both games will still exist as esports.

I also thought about this. We'll never know how SC2 would've developed without kespa but the kespa switch inflated korean SC2 in an unhealthy way. It made the very own legacy of many SC2-Players and Teams decline because the megastars of golden broodwar-days overshadowed everything (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Reality...). But then, many of those megastars didn't fulfil the expectations, many of them retired sooner or later or just became unrelevant.
Also proleague became more and more the only reason of existence for the teams. Proleague was great, but it pushed aside the fame a Starleaguewinner could gain for his team. Without the growing importance of proleague for korean SC2-Teams they probably weren't forced to disband now.

Apart from the kespa switch it probably also comes down to the blizzard-kespa dispute about broadcasting rights in SC2. Not that kespa is to blame alone in that case but it's stubborness definitely didn't help. Without this dispute kespa probably would've switched to SC2 way earlier, growing together with the arising SC2-Scene instead of stomping into it when it flourished the most on it's own.

Also interesting, the team, which was most willing to undergo tranformations, is now the oldest team with a continuity in SC2: Startale, merging with ZeNEX (which was a merger of Zenith and NEX and brought Life to startale), transforming into SBENU, getting acquired by afreeca. I really hope, afreeca doesn't disband.


I dont know where do you get that "flourished the most on its own" part. eSF was a joke of governing body with tons of scandals & mismanagement. Why people love to blame everything on KeSPA is way beyond me.


I'm not that much trying to blame kespa (although kespa is to blame to a certain extend and so are others), but to describe, what the consequences of kespa's actions were. Everyone should be aware of the fact that most things that happened were really hard to be foreseen. Many of us smiled at LoL in the early days of SC2, being proud of the fact that SC2 was the biggest esport the world has ever seen. And in that sense SC2 flourished also in Korea, having a stable league with GSL, opening more and more to the global competition and thus winning more and more sponsor value because SC2 sponsors weren't as Korea-focused back then (Redbull, LG, MSI, Razer, Thermaltake, FXO).
You're right, eSF and GOM had problems but they seemed to manage a certain level of stability.
Furthermore, I consider that some kind of Code A must be reestablished.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-26 00:19:33
October 26 2016 00:17 GMT
#1258
On October 26 2016 06:46 fronkschnonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2016 19:02 Arceus wrote:
On October 20 2016 18:24 fronkschnonk wrote:
On October 18 2016 17:14 MarthTV wrote:
So we´ve finally reached that point.

Kespa should have never switched from BW to SC2. In retrospect it only hurt both scenes in Korea. SC2 was doing fine without Kespa und BW was depending on it.
Still both games will still exist as esports.

I also thought about this. We'll never know how SC2 would've developed without kespa but the kespa switch inflated korean SC2 in an unhealthy way. It made the very own legacy of many SC2-Players and Teams decline because the megastars of golden broodwar-days overshadowed everything (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Reality...). But then, many of those megastars didn't fulfil the expectations, many of them retired sooner or later or just became unrelevant.
Also proleague became more and more the only reason of existence for the teams. Proleague was great, but it pushed aside the fame a Starleaguewinner could gain for his team. Without the growing importance of proleague for korean SC2-Teams they probably weren't forced to disband now.

Apart from the kespa switch it probably also comes down to the blizzard-kespa dispute about broadcasting rights in SC2. Not that kespa is to blame alone in that case but it's stubborness definitely didn't help. Without this dispute kespa probably would've switched to SC2 way earlier, growing together with the arising SC2-Scene instead of stomping into it when it flourished the most on it's own.

Also interesting, the team, which was most willing to undergo tranformations, is now the oldest team with a continuity in SC2: Startale, merging with ZeNEX (which was a merger of Zenith and NEX and brought Life to startale), transforming into SBENU, getting acquired by afreeca. I really hope, afreeca doesn't disband.


I dont know where do you get that "flourished the most on its own" part. eSF was a joke of governing body with tons of scandals & mismanagement. Why people love to blame everything on KeSPA is way beyond me.


I'm not that much trying to blame kespa (although kespa is to blame to a certain extend and so are others), but to describe, what the consequences of kespa's actions were. Everyone should be aware of the fact that most things that happened were really hard to be foreseen. Many of us smiled at LoL in the early days of SC2, being proud of the fact that SC2 was the biggest esport the world has ever seen. And in that sense SC2 flourished also in Korea, having a stable league with GSL, opening more and more to the global competition and thus winning more and more sponsor value because SC2 sponsors weren't as Korea-focused back then (Redbull, LG, MSI, Razer, Thermaltake, FXO).
You're right, eSF and GOM had problems but they seemed to manage a certain level of stability.

doubt it, back when eSF was around, teams had a hard time finding sponsors. I still remember back when Prime was looking around and they got sponsored by some restaurant or something. I don't see how having difficulty finding sponsors for the team to keep it running equates to stability. Heck, there was also talk of some players using their prize money to support their teams (don't remember who/what team). Compare that to some of the bigger sponsors that Kespa "probably" helped get on board in the BW days like SKT and KT etc...

Only exception was SlayerS but we all know why they got lots of sponsors.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
MindForeverBurning
Profile Joined February 2016
12 Posts
October 26 2016 01:10 GMT
#1259
A week later, there is still a Proleague shaped hole in my heart.
UhrU
Profile Joined July 2013
4 Posts
October 26 2016 08:05 GMT
#1260
This is as sad as the retirement of Flash ProLeague, you will be missed <3
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