EPTOn March 22 2016 08:32 Rels wrote:
Yeah there was no town logic behind the unvote and I shouldn't have discarded it.
Yeah there was no town logic behind the unvote and I shouldn't have discarded it.
I'll explain it more when I'm off but there is.
Noir Mini Mafia: Chapter 4 - Page 77
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geript
10024 Posts
I'll explain it more when I'm off but there is. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On March 22 2016 08:43 geript wrote: TBH, that case was easy to throw off. Like, I'll get off of that lynch 100x out of 100 as town too. It's a player specific thing. There's 2 people calling each other scum who are voting with me. No one else was at all happy with that lynch. The "need to lynch" post was strategic because less than half the game was even voting at that point. Of course the case was easy to throw off. Every case is easy to throw off on its own. But had town discussed it seriously and developed more serious suspicions against you, it would not have been easy. Well discussed, valid suspicions get people lynched, often no matter how they fight back. I'm still counting this a W for me. Kush getting modkilled changed the strategy really heavily. IDK who we would've killed, it probably would've been yam and coasted from there to an easy victory. IDK. But the "cute" unvote was just being me. Eh. I realize that the Kush mod kill affected things. That being said, you shouldn't use that as an excuse to ignore your own play. For a good portion of this game, it probably wouldn't have mattered how you played, because town was fucking themselves continuously for the first four days. But come Day 5, you had a chance to ice the game, and kind of threw it away due to your passivity. Whether this was due to work, burnout, or laziness, I don't know. But there's a reason I had a mafia victory post written out for tonight, because you were the overwhelming favorite to win, yet overplayed your hand massively. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43211 Posts
Don't no-kill for shit reasons (that you can't even know are true or false). You lost because of it. Had you gone to lylo with any other people than two of Koshi/yamato/Rels you win 99 time out of 100 in this game. You fucked yourself over. goodnight. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On March 22 2016 08:32 Vivax wrote: I don't deny my fault, I also don't deny I'm an asshole in this game, but only an over the limit asshole when I think I can get away with it. Do you have moral standards you hold yourself to? Anyway, that's beside the point of all my post-game commentary. Being an asshole gets you lynched and screws the town, no matter if it's "allowed" or if it can be "justified" by some weird code/duty/fetish to push the boundaries of modkills. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On March 22 2016 08:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: I said it before and i am gonna say it again. Don't no-kill for shit reasons (that you can't even know are true or false). You lost because of it. Had you gone to lylo with any other people than two of Koshi/yamato/Rels you win 99 time out of 100 in this game. You fucked yourself over. goodnight. Worth quoting, and this is something I did not think about. Going for the time-victory robbed Geript of a chance to secure a favorable LYLO. While the end-results might bias me, Yamato/Rels is probably the last LYLO I'd want looking at the player list. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43211 Posts
Town will always lynch as much as possible. Or does someone think if there is a 4v1 situation with 72h left on timer that town decides to "discuss for 72 hours and OBVIOUSLY lynch mafia" instead of "lynch the shit out of someone in 24h and then lynch another guy on the last 24h". rofl... | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43211 Posts
Here geript gave a mislynch for free. It is bad play. Even if he had won it would still had been bad play because it made (makes) the game much harder for him to win, without any upsides. Or well... ofc you can always assume there is a watcher in the game or something.... | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17322 Posts
I gotta trust the gut | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17322 Posts
On March 22 2016 08:28 nnn_thekushmountains wrote: The rest of the town sucked terribly. I know, I mostly function to fill games. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On March 22 2016 08:11 Koshi wrote: I think you were the only one to ever think geript was mafia in 14 days. Which tends to be a good indicator for geript being scum :D | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On March 22 2016 08:13 Hapahauli wrote: What’s funny, is that despite all the toxicity in the thread, town was in pretty good shape overall. There was some pretty good information in the thread, and both mafia were very catchable Day 1. Rels had made a fairly excellent post on Geript... This case should get him lynched in a calmer game. The idea that someone 180’s on a scumread hard enough to derail a lynch at the last minute despite objecting to a longer day cycle is absurd. The story isn’t believable, and it is especially hard to square geript’s inactivity with the concreteness of his read progresson on Alakaslam. On the face, I understand this argument. But I think it's really wrong. The context of the "short days" post was in an environment when ~36+ hours in no one was voting or actually actively trying to get anyone lynched. I'm also a player that, as both alignments, is actively aware of who's joining who to coalesce a lynch. So when you see a really odd marriage of 2 pairs of people that basically want to lynch each other (me+tumble vs Vivax + Shape IIRC) with a random other, there's assured to be mafia on that wagon. Especially when the towniest people that day (myself, yamato and Koshi) are all voting for 3 different people. That's a really weird lynch to get behind as any alignment. That said, I think Rels really overplayed the unvote more than he should have. Don't drop the subject, I deserve at least some pressure and need to explain the why's and what not. But how overblown he made it, made it that much easier ignore with a simple hand wave. The real warning sign, IMO, wasn't the fact that I got off that lynch, but this: On March 15 2016 08:00 Hapahauli wrote: Final Vote Count - Day 2 Alakaslam (4): geript, Tumblewood, Rels, Tumblewood (3): Alakaslam, yamato77, Koshi Shapelog (0): Rels (0): Not Voting (0): That's right, on D2 I'm voting with the same crew (minus Vivax) for what reason???? IDK. This is actually I think my second mistake this game. I should've lynched Tumble here I think, but in the long run it was a bit better to have lynched Slam because it made VCA really weird between the non-confirms. FWIW, the first mistake I made was not having a clear townlist on D1. I should've had some sort of heirarchy posted because I always have that as town with reasoning for why XZY is town, neutral or scum. On March 22 2016 08:13 Hapahauli wrote: I don’t think anyone playing this game is bad. Most of you have the knowledge, experience, and intelligence you need to carry a town to victory. Players in this game fell short in leadership. This was a town where people were loud and opinionated and tried to lead, but largely failed in doing so. When I first played scum, this was the major reason why I could never understand how Kita could "feel" so active without actually being half as active as he felt. The reason why I was able to do so well this game was because I was the town leadership. I'm a good town player (not the best, but good) and I got away with a meta case which no one bothered to actually check (FYI it's totally fake) and a quite weak case on Vivax with zero repercussions. As town, you have to hold the leaders responsible at least in some regard. Koshi gets a pass because of un-CC'd blue, but I got the two lynches I wanted on D1 with 0 pressure for being wrong on both. On March 22 2016 08:13 Hapahauli wrote: Geript - + Show Spoiler + Well played, until the ending anyway. You were too blatantly obvious trying to play Yamato and Rels off each other. Being passive mafia always carries the risk that town will get their collective heads out of their asses and lynch you. I think you try to play too fancy sometimes, which can get you into trouble against a non-dysfunctional town. For example, the last minute vote-switch on Slam was a very dangerous play, that got you rightly called out by Rels. You were very fortunate that Vivax existed. Another example are some very weird posts you made in LYLO. On March 21 2016 07:08 geript wrote: Bottom line, I can write a strong town case for yam. I can't for you. Townies just don’t think like this in LYLO. It’s just very unbelievable to be 100% convinced that someone is town for those reasons at the end of a game. If you want to tell a more convincing story, you need to harness some of the paranoia and uncertainty of being a townie and put them into your posts. I don't want to take too much away. Surviving four lynches is quite the feat. But I feel you got way too overconfident towards the end. FWIW, I think I should've switched to vote Yam earlier. I think that would've kept the focus between those two while Rels would've still been tilted enough maybe not see through it. The late switch to Yam is basically forced from any alignment; it always looks bad and I didn't have enough time to respond (due to work). In 2v1 with a deadline, you have to lynch. Lynching gives you >0% of winning. Regarding the late vote switch again, I wasn't fortunate Vivax existed. It's possible because Vivax existed as he did. That's a bit odd to say, but steam was already well directed towards him and people wanted him out for a variety of reasons. I can't pull off Slam if there isn't a good secondary lynch option for obvious reasons, but because it exists it allows for it. Regarding the weird post on town-casing Yam, I honestly just think about things a bit differently than most. My townreads are just far, far better than most of my scumreads; and most my scumreads are basically explanations for why they're not town. So in endgame, me resorting to who is town and who isn't, is just kinda how I operate. Overall, yes probably overconfident and too cutesy in general. But after the modkill, I wanted to win my way. I was close, but I did fuck up a few things enough to not secure the fifth lynch. On March 22 2016 08:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: I said it before and i am gonna say it again. Don't no-kill for shit reasons (that you can't even know are true or false). You lost because of it. Had you gone to lylo with any other people than two of Koshi/yamato/Rels you win 99 time out of 100 in this game. You fucked yourself over. goodnight. If the question is: Is not killing in any of those situations better than killing? The answer is no. N1 kill moves to 5v1; which makes lynches harder which is scum favored and also decreases the clock by 1 lynch. But again, that wasn't really the point of why I was playing. I wanted to survive 5 lynches and I wanted to avoid the tracker. Yes, I could've avoided a Yam/Rels/Me lylo and instead had something a bit easier like Rels/Shape/Me. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43211 Posts
On March 22 2016 13:46 geript wrote: If the question is: Is not killing in any of those situations better than killing? The answer is no. N1 kill moves to 5v1; which makes lynches harder which is scum favored and also decreases the clock by 1 lynch. But again, that wasn't really the point of why I was playing. I wanted to survive 5 lynches and I wanted to avoid the tracker. Yes, I could've avoided a Yam/Rels/Me lylo and instead had something a bit easier like Rels/Shape/Me. If you consider the game balanced here is where you are as scum: - You know you have a godfather and a roleblocker. - You know that the KP is delivered. Town also knows that the KP is delivered (if they ask), since otherwise it is b-modding. - Therefore, a balanced game looks something like this: - There is most likely no jailkeeper. There is most likely no tracker. There is definitely no watcher because that shit is just too imba. Literally all of the above roles do not make the game balanced since every single time the action they make goes through it confirms someone on some direction if the mafia shoots after 1 mafia has been lynched. A reasonable assumption when balancing a game is that if the town plays properly they lynch mafia on D1 or D2. You can't really balance a game with "the best strategy is to no-kill basically regardless of lynches, when 1 mafia dies". That is just retarded if someone balances a game based on that. So the chances of there being a JK or a tracker are pretty fucking low. - There is a possibility of a cop based on there being a godfather. - The most likely answer is that there is a veteran or a parity cop. Literally every single person who rolls mafia in a game like this should assume one of these two. Every other possibility is either highly unlike, or just plain out retarded. Now if you no-kill, the parity cop will fuck you in the ass and do it hard, ESPECIALLY when the godfather flips at the start on N1. That is the first point why no-killing is just super bad play. If you EVER hit a veteran (when you need to kill, like you did here), you get more fucked. If the blue role happens to be someone who you, by your game plan, consider a lynch (like Slam/Shape/Tumble) here, you are fucked -- because again, you go into more difficult lylo. Basically every single reasonable scenario just fucks you in the ass. The scenarios you were trying to avoid were either very very unlikely considering a BALANCED game (tracker/JK), or just straight out retarded (watcher). I talked about the balance i nthe obs QT when no-kills started to happen, and even there i said "JK is just unbalanced given delivered KP". I didn't even bring up tracker/watcher because that is EVEN MORE unbalanced. I can talk about more why those roles in such small game with delivered KP (and watcher in ANY game with delivered KP) are just straight out imba. Basically when one mafia flips and the blue is alive, you are just fucked if one of those roles is in the game. They are like a cop but better because they pierce GF. Unless ofc mafia chooses to no-kill, which is also retarded.  | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
It's really a shame you think this way. Whenever you try you seem to play really well, like in that smurf game. I think you're a great player when you want to be, Slam. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43211 Posts
On March 22 2016 19:08 Rels wrote: I think geript knows it was a bad play but he wanted to win with style. And I gotta admit it would have been awesome p: If that is the case, it's fine and there is nothing wrong in it. I got the feeling he argued it was a good strategy. | ||
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nnn_thekushmountains
1501 Posts
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