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GB, what did you like about this post that made you think Xatalos is town?
On October 23 2015 05:33 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Well it's kind of like... Imagine player X. He has a great record of posting a lengthy introduction post as scum when he starts the game, and as town he's so far just immediately jumped in and started posting actual content. Now in a current game he immediately makes a lengthy introduction post. Could he have done it as town to make himself harder to read? Possibly. But I'd still take into account that maybe the meta is repeating itself, no? And if you read my posts, it's not just that about Blazinghand, but more like how he was so excited about the RNG when he's several times before said that it's pro-town. It would be harder to convey that excitement as scum when he think it's so pro-town clearly.
I'm not down to lynch Vivax; I think he's been very town by laying out his reads and thought process openly. I don't think Onegu or Hopeless are particularly town but they haven't done anything terrible. I would lynch them but I think there are better options. rayn claims that he can read Hopeless so I can trust in that for a bit until I get a better idea.
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On October 23 2015 12:17 GlowingBear wrote:Also, I just went to the database and I saw that Xatalos never had a filter length bigger than 15 pages as mafia in any of his games. Carol of the Bells, for instance, is a game where he survived until day5 and had 15 pages of filter. He has more than the half of it on day1 here. So lynching Xatalos today is COMPLETELY out of the question IMO. For reference, here is my meta case on Xatalos that happened to be right on Carol of the Bells, for anyone who is interested. I don't know if it makes Xata town or Mafia here, I didn't re-read it (lol), I'm just bringing it here for the sake of more information. + Show Spoiler [metacase] +On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)( (I'd also like to add up that reading this game has been delightful. I can't say how much I prefer a concise AND precise thread like this)
The filter length argument is good. But why would you only look at filter length and clear Xatalos on that when you have a whole prewritten meta case you could have looked at?
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On October 23 2015 12:30 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 12:17 GlowingBear wrote:Also, I just went to the database and I saw that Xatalos never had a filter length bigger than 15 pages as mafia in any of his games. Carol of the Bells, for instance, is a game where he survived until day5 and had 15 pages of filter. He has more than the half of it on day1 here. So lynching Xatalos today is COMPLETELY out of the question IMO. For reference, here is my meta case on Xatalos that happened to be right on Carol of the Bells, for anyone who is interested. I don't know if it makes Xata town or Mafia here, I didn't re-read it (lol), I'm just bringing it here for the sake of more information. + Show Spoiler [metacase] +On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)( (I'd also like to add up that reading this game has been delightful. I can't say how much I prefer a concise AND precise thread like this) The filter length argument is good. But why would you only look at filter length and clear Xatalos on that when you have a whole prewritten meta case you could have looked at?
It takes less effort to click on filter than to actually read the case 
On October 23 2015 12:23 Chromatically wrote:GB, what did you like about this post that made you think Xatalos is town? Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 05:33 Xatalos wrote:On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Well it's kind of like... Imagine player X. He has a great record of posting a lengthy introduction post as scum when he starts the game, and as town he's so far just immediately jumped in and started posting actual content. Now in a current game he immediately makes a lengthy introduction post. Could he have done it as town to make himself harder to read? Possibly. But I'd still take into account that maybe the meta is repeating itself, no? And if you read my posts, it's not just that about Blazinghand, but more like how he was so excited about the RNG when he's several times before said that it's pro-town. It would be harder to convey that excitement as scum when he think it's so pro-town clearly. I'm not down to lynch Vivax; I think he's been very town by laying out his reads and thought process openly. I don't think Onegu or Hopeless are particularly town but they haven't done anything terrible. I would lynch them but I think there are better options. rayn claims that he can read Hopeless so I can trust in that for a bit until I get a better idea.
I'm not sure but it sound to me that he is really trying to figure out the game. His explanation sounds genuine in here. I mean, I can get behind his logic, although I don't agree with it.
Who would be a better lynch other than Xatalos, then? I really don't see better lynches than the ones I proposed
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On October 23 2015 13:26 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 12:30 Chromatically wrote:On October 23 2015 12:17 GlowingBear wrote:Also, I just went to the database and I saw that Xatalos never had a filter length bigger than 15 pages as mafia in any of his games. Carol of the Bells, for instance, is a game where he survived until day5 and had 15 pages of filter. He has more than the half of it on day1 here. So lynching Xatalos today is COMPLETELY out of the question IMO. For reference, here is my meta case on Xatalos that happened to be right on Carol of the Bells, for anyone who is interested. I don't know if it makes Xata town or Mafia here, I didn't re-read it (lol), I'm just bringing it here for the sake of more information. + Show Spoiler [metacase] +On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)( (I'd also like to add up that reading this game has been delightful. I can't say how much I prefer a concise AND precise thread like this) The filter length argument is good. But why would you only look at filter length and clear Xatalos on that when you have a whole prewritten meta case you could have looked at? It takes less effort to click on filter than to actually read the case Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 12:23 Chromatically wrote:GB, what did you like about this post that made you think Xatalos is town? On October 23 2015 05:33 Xatalos wrote:On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Well it's kind of like... Imagine player X. He has a great record of posting a lengthy introduction post as scum when he starts the game, and as town he's so far just immediately jumped in and started posting actual content. Now in a current game he immediately makes a lengthy introduction post. Could he have done it as town to make himself harder to read? Possibly. But I'd still take into account that maybe the meta is repeating itself, no? And if you read my posts, it's not just that about Blazinghand, but more like how he was so excited about the RNG when he's several times before said that it's pro-town. It would be harder to convey that excitement as scum when he think it's so pro-town clearly. I'm not down to lynch Vivax; I think he's been very town by laying out his reads and thought process openly. I don't think Onegu or Hopeless are particularly town but they haven't done anything terrible. I would lynch them but I think there are better options. rayn claims that he can read Hopeless so I can trust in that for a bit until I get a better idea. I'm not sure but it sound to me that he is really trying to figure out the game. His explanation sounds genuine in here. I mean, I can get behind his logic, although I don't agree with it. Who would be a better lynch other than Xatalos, then? I really don't see better lynches than the ones I proposed
I don't see how that post is town at all. I think it would be very easy to make an analogy like that as mafia because you don't have to talk about people in the game; he can genuinely believe that his analogy is true as mafia because it's a general statement. It just seems like a weird post to pick out as town to me.
Xatalos would be good. BH/Onegu/Slam/ritoky would be the people I would look at next for not doing anything I think is particularly town (Hopeless would be too if not for rayn/yamato saying he's town). ritoky's read on BH doesn't make any sense but the way he's gone about it makes me think that he might actually believe he has a good read on BH. So maybe not him as much. Maybe you on there too. Not sure, I like Xatalos much better than others right now.
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Day 1 Vote Count
raynpelikoneet (2): Blazinghand, Xatalos, Vivax, Hopeless1der, Xatalos
GlowingBear (2): marvellosity, yamato77, Vivax
Vivax (2): gumshoe, GlowingBear
ritoky (1): Chromatically, raynpelikoneet
Xatalos (1): Chromatically
Alakaslam (0): raynpelikoneet
Chromatically (0): Xatalos
Not listed (5): marvellosity, Onegu, Alakaslam, ritoky, Hopeless1der
Looks like it's time to sack raynpelikoneet for being a traitor!
Day 1 ends in at 21:00 GMT (+00:00).
The quality control list is here.
Only votes on this list will be counted.
Please mind the deadline as failure to vote will result in a modkill.
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On October 23 2015 13:49 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 13:26 GlowingBear wrote:On October 23 2015 12:30 Chromatically wrote:On October 23 2015 12:17 GlowingBear wrote:Also, I just went to the database and I saw that Xatalos never had a filter length bigger than 15 pages as mafia in any of his games. Carol of the Bells, for instance, is a game where he survived until day5 and had 15 pages of filter. He has more than the half of it on day1 here. So lynching Xatalos today is COMPLETELY out of the question IMO. For reference, here is my meta case on Xatalos that happened to be right on Carol of the Bells, for anyone who is interested. I don't know if it makes Xata town or Mafia here, I didn't re-read it (lol), I'm just bringing it here for the sake of more information. + Show Spoiler [metacase] +On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)( (I'd also like to add up that reading this game has been delightful. I can't say how much I prefer a concise AND precise thread like this) The filter length argument is good. But why would you only look at filter length and clear Xatalos on that when you have a whole prewritten meta case you could have looked at? It takes less effort to click on filter than to actually read the case On October 23 2015 12:23 Chromatically wrote:GB, what did you like about this post that made you think Xatalos is town? On October 23 2015 05:33 Xatalos wrote:On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Well it's kind of like... Imagine player X. He has a great record of posting a lengthy introduction post as scum when he starts the game, and as town he's so far just immediately jumped in and started posting actual content. Now in a current game he immediately makes a lengthy introduction post. Could he have done it as town to make himself harder to read? Possibly. But I'd still take into account that maybe the meta is repeating itself, no? And if you read my posts, it's not just that about Blazinghand, but more like how he was so excited about the RNG when he's several times before said that it's pro-town. It would be harder to convey that excitement as scum when he think it's so pro-town clearly. I'm not down to lynch Vivax; I think he's been very town by laying out his reads and thought process openly. I don't think Onegu or Hopeless are particularly town but they haven't done anything terrible. I would lynch them but I think there are better options. rayn claims that he can read Hopeless so I can trust in that for a bit until I get a better idea. I'm not sure but it sound to me that he is really trying to figure out the game. His explanation sounds genuine in here. I mean, I can get behind his logic, although I don't agree with it. Who would be a better lynch other than Xatalos, then? I really don't see better lynches than the ones I proposed I don't see how that post is town at all. I think it would be very easy to make an analogy like that as mafia because you don't have to talk about people in the game; he can genuinely believe that his analogy is true as mafia because it's a general statement. It just seems like a weird post to pick out as town to me. Xatalos would be good. BH/Onegu/Slam/ritoky would be the people I would look at next for not doing anything I think is particularly town (Hopeless would be too if not for rayn/yamato saying he's town). ritoky's read on BH doesn't make any sense but the way he's gone about it makes me think that he might actually believe he has a good read on BH. So maybe not him as much. Maybe you on there too. Not sure, I like Xatalos much better than others right now.
The fact that you consider me over Onegu and Hopeless worries me.
Especially when the same rayn that gave Hopeless a townread is also townreading me.
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##Vote: Onegu
See ya guys tomorrow, it is time for sleep.
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Oh you tricky guy you didnt actually vote me...
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##unvote
##vote GlowingBear
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On October 23 2015 05:16 Onegu wrote:
Slam where did you go, I miss you so. Feels like its been forever.
Slam we were scummates and our game got canceled. Will you still be my friend this game?
HIJOLE!!!
I know... Irl is looking up though
I am reading and posting as I read, per usual
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On October 23 2015 05:28 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 05:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't understand the reads on ritoky. He literally said:
"BH is town until he does something egregious enough to be considered not town."
"generally speaking he doesn't rng as mafia, but i wouldn't put it past him to break meta."
So what? He townreads Blazinghand for something he then says, in the next post, is not a reason to townread Blazinghand`!!? He makes a perfectly reasonable set of statements. "Blazinghand has a meta of using RNG as town" "...however, this doesn't mean we should automatically assume BH is town. BH is a tricky fucker, and is notoriously a tricky fucker. He has done all kinds of things as scum that nobody thought scum would do, like pretend to get dumped, be depressed, death in teh family, and so on. He will do anything as scum to win, he's so sexy and good at this game. BH, you are so cool. This is known by all people" These are both reasonabl eand true statements
KASLAM
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On October 23 2015 05:32 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 05:29 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 23 2015 05:28 Blazinghand wrote:On October 23 2015 05:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't understand the reads on ritoky. He literally said:
"BH is town until he does something egregious enough to be considered not town."
"generally speaking he doesn't rng as mafia, but i wouldn't put it past him to break meta."
So what? He townreads Blazinghand for something he then says, in the next post, is not a reason to townread Blazinghand`!!? He makes a perfectly reasonable set of statements. "Blazinghand has a meta of using RNG as town" "...however, this doesn't mean we should automatically assume BH is town. BH is a tricky fucker, and is notoriously a tricky fucker. He has done all kinds of things as scum that nobody thought scum would do, like pretend to get dumped, be depressed, death in teh family, and so on. He will do anything as scum to win, he's so sexy and good at this game. BH, you are so cool. This is known by all people" These are both reasonabl eand true statements yes and STILL he assumes you are town as per his posts. see? It doesn't make any sense. Ok but part of what's going on here also is not everyone has seen firsthand what I'm capable of. Most people hear a story or two and think "oh, that BH guy must be pretty decent. He'll do anything to win. I guess I better count this well-known-to-BH meta evidence less strongly". Not everyone is like you, not everyone has seen the true darkness and depravity I am willing to perpetrate to win as scum. I've literally made peopel feel IRL feelings for me, feel bad, feel hurt, feel worried, want to reach out to me out-of-game, just to not get lynched for one day as scum. I've sunk to depths that are BEYOND most people's comprehensions. You know me, rayn. You know not to trust RNG as a town-tell. PEople hear that, though, and they think "okay, don't trust it AS MUCH as I normally would", because they don't KNOW. They ahven't gazed into the abyss. They are still sane. They can still be saved. You, though... you've seen what I'm capable of, and perhaps have forgotten what it is like to be normal, to not know me as you do
Chupazi cannot be fazed by anything really
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On October 23 2015 15:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:
##unvote
##vote GlowingBear
I thought you were good at reading me.
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On October 23 2015 06:00 Xatalos wrote:
Slam... Damn Slam :D He truly fooled me last game, so I'll refrain from townreading him as easily this time around.
As ritoky half quoted:
(@a player named "straitjacket") "Look deep into the eyes of Chupazi; thy handle shall speak soothly of thy condition"
With hypno kaa
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On October 23 2015 06:04 Hopeless1der wrote:
Ritoky, what's your read on gumshoe now?
Hopeless asking a ton of what is your opinion questions kind of scummy behavior. What does he have to bring to table between now and where I catch up with myself?
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I seriously don't understand why I'm being scumread.
Could you please enlighten me?
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On October 23 2015 06:11 ritoky wrote:
damn, sorry slam. didn't know me acting like you at times took the fire out of it for you. i will stop so it can be your thing again. my b yo was just having fun with it.
That's not what happened
Irl
Irl is better
Folks, I came here to deal with depression and study online interactions because life was just not that great
I wound up enjoying it
But, only reason I have been gone is that my life is full now XD
Or, more than it was
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On October 23 2015 06:17 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 06:12 Xatalos wrote:On October 23 2015 06:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 22 2015 07:26 Blazinghand wrote:
"would you have done this if you were mafia?" --> the answer to this question is always "yes". I'm willing to lie, cheat, steal, doctor photographs, put items in boxes, fake plane tickets, pretend to have depression, a death in the family, etc, whatever it takes to win regardless of alignment. I'm one of the few players that does not pull punches as mafia. So yes, as mafia, I'd be fully willing to RNG if I percieved it to be a good idea (which it isn't; I've outlined why RNG is pro-town this game) Here is what bothers me Xatalos. You continue to townread Blazinghand fro his rng after he says this. So? He didn't even seem to realize that RNG-stuff was a "towntell" for him until after we started discussing the topic. What's more, even if he did, it wouldn't be so easy to fake the whole push and argue about it with that kind of conviction if he thought it was counter-productive for his faction (as scum). And well, he has just generally been active and producing posts I like. I don't really feel there's any reason to think he's null, let alone scum. He's definitely null off of the RNG. Thats the entire point. BH has literally said that you have to look at what he does with it, not the fact that he did it. Once done, he's committed to it, even if (and rayn?) are scum he's trapped. All of his followup with respect to how true and great and protown it is have no bearing on his alignment. His concern with ritoky pulling up games to draw a conclusion make them both townyish to me, but thats not really much considering the subject matter. BH is firmly null atm.
K this is better from 1der
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On October 23 2015 06:24 ritoky wrote:
i think having a child restored some of my faith in humanity and made me significantly worse at this game. i no longer assume everyone is a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling. makes things rough.
advice to all people who wanna get good and stay good: don't have a baby.
Or go back to school or become interested in an extremely unusual person or involved with international families and goings on
But we digress.
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EPT
