On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand Xatalos Onegu Alakaslam ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there.
i thought you told me ritoky was town?
yeah that was yesterday.
On October 23 2015 06:53 ritoky wrote:
On October 22 2015 12:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: i think ritoky is town tbh
On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand Xatalos Onegu Alakaslam ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there.
On October 23 2015 05:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't understand the reads on ritoky. He literally said: "BH is town until he does something egregious enough to be considered not town." "generally speaking he doesn't rng as mafia, but i wouldn't put it past him to break meta."
So what? He townreads Blazinghand for something he then says, in the next post, is not a reason to townread Blazinghand`!!?
On October 23 2015 05:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On October 23 2015 05:39 Blazinghand wrote:
On October 23 2015 05:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: I fail to see how i am being "aggressive" here, so could you explain BH?
well, not towards me. You're actually being a little more gentle with me, compared to normal. Normally I'd expect you to end up TRing ritoky for that on your own. Maybe it's been some time since we played together, or my edge is getting dull, but I recall you being pretty good at noticing people's motivations.
ritoky is a really had to read for me and i don't think he has said much of anything that could be in my opinion considered townie.
Maybe it's jsut like you say and other people do not know you as well as i do (and what you can / cannot do as mafia), but still... it's really hard for me to believe both of Xatalos and ritoky actually believe you are town for your actions regarding the rng lynch. I just don't fucking buy it.
On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand Xatalos Onegu Alakaslam ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there.
i thought you told me ritoky was town?
yeah that was yesterday.
On October 23 2015 06:53 ritoky wrote:
On October 22 2015 12:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: i think ritoky is town tbh
On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand Xatalos Onegu Alakaslam ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there.
On October 23 2015 05:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't understand the reads on ritoky. He literally said: "BH is town until he does something egregious enough to be considered not town." "generally speaking he doesn't rng as mafia, but i wouldn't put it past him to break meta."
So what? He townreads Blazinghand for something he then says, in the next post, is not a reason to townread Blazinghand`!!?
On October 23 2015 05:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On October 23 2015 05:39 Blazinghand wrote:
On October 23 2015 05:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: I fail to see how i am being "aggressive" here, so could you explain BH?
well, not towards me. You're actually being a little more gentle with me, compared to normal. Normally I'd expect you to end up TRing ritoky for that on your own. Maybe it's been some time since we played together, or my edge is getting dull, but I recall you being pretty good at noticing people's motivations.
ritoky is a really had to read for me and i don't think he has said much of anything that could be in my opinion considered townie.
Maybe it's jsut like you say and other people do not know you as well as i do (and what you can / cannot do as mafia), but still... it's really hard for me to believe both of Xatalos and ritoky actually believe you are town for your actions regarding the rng lynch. I just don't fucking buy it.
nice one bro.
respond.
no
y'know, gonna be honest here. you're the most underwhelming player that people tell me is good on these forums. i just don't see it; maybe i am the one who is so bad i can't comprehend your greatness; but i don't think that's the case.
On October 23 2015 06:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: I have a question. Xatalos do you seriously think Blazinghand - as town - believes that lynching by RNG on D1 has the best chances of hitting mafia? Like do you SERIOUSLY believe that?
depending on the setup of the game and the structure of PRs, yes.
really? when he himself just argued it's less likely to hit mafia then not rng lycnhing?
it's actually equally as likely, so i disagree with your premise entirely.
it's actually really simple. i mean i guess it's pretty simple for me cuz i read like 10 of BH's games in the recent past so i could accurately impersonate him. here's your guide to reading BH:
Did he RNG immediately @ the start of the game: if yes -> 80% chance to be town; if no -> 80% chance to be mafia
Did he push the RNG target or just leave it there like a dead fish: if push -> 95% chance to be town; if dead fish - 50% chance to be mafia
Did he gather reads from people arguing with him about why they are better than RNG: yes - DING DING DING town; i don't know he hasn't given reads - 75% town; no - 50% town
rayn, was this your turning point on ritoky? They're right when saying that ritoky posted nothing between "(rayn thinks) ritoky is town" and "POE lynch list include ritoky".
Yeah as i said that was yesterday. I clearly pointed out (before going to bed) that i dislike Xatalos' & ritoky's reads on BH which i had missed earlier as i was tired. My townread on ritoky before was not based on that at all. I jsut didn't pay attention to his posts because i didn't think he was saying anything interesting. It's like how i treat players who don't say anything interesting (unless something changes)... in every game.
There is absolutely nothing contradicting there, i re-evaluated his posting after i had slept and dug up further and came to conclusion he is mafia, because: 1) His read on BH is bad. 2) His reasoning for his read doesn't even make any sense.for example; he says there is 80% chance BH does this rng thing as town, so there is actually then 20% chance of BH doing that as mafia - by default. When people tell his that "BH could totally do that as mafia" it doesn't affect his read at all. In fact he just pushes the townread further with more illogical arguments, like trying to argue random lynching is as effective as not random lynching, which is a straight out lie, and doesn't even have anything to do with BH's alignment.
So yeah, there is that. That's basically the only thing he has done in this game in addition to now bitching at me.
On October 23 2015 00:48 GlowingBear wrote: His first post was a vote on yamato?
And yes, he CAN do it as town, but his whole filter has posts in similar fashion. And I usually see Vivax being paranoid. Not this straight forward.
This doesn't make sense. He calls yamato mafia and so he's not paranoid? What are you saying?
Like I get what you're saying about the townlist, but you need to explain it much much better about calling people mafia.
I may be wrong here marv, but what I'm trying to say is not that he is calling people mafia, but that his posts are very straight forward here (that's what I trying to saying with "absolutes" = he calls a player mafia, he calls a player town - I don't see him having a slow progression on most people. And I'm used to Vivax being way more wary before giving reads).
It's basically tonal.
This is the same Vivax who tunnelled me and HF and one other based on a connection theory for abour 36h starting from half an hour into day 1, yes? That Vivax who is wary of giving reads?
EXACTLY!
I think I'm having a hard time even to understand what I want to say LOL.
I mean he had a couple of theories to tunnel both of you. He WASN'T straight forward. His town reads were never strong because of the tin foil.
But here, less than half a day, he already has like 4 townreads, and two of them I don't even understand why.
By the way, Vivax, what are the reasons to townread BH and Xata?
Literally scumreading Vivax because too many townreads
Confident Vivax is town Vivax. Paranoia is not a trait, but a symptom of his overconfidence in his own reads. He's so convinced he's right, he doesn't care if everyone else reads the player town, THAT PLAYER IS MAFIA
Plus he defends me for ? reasons just to throw more shit at Vivax
meh
marv fell off this for basically no reason, I would have pushed him more
I'm going to be honest - the reason is because I'm an idiot. I basically got stuck in one train of thought and forgot that Vivax is a little bitch as mafia and that a confident Vivax is far more likely to be town. so yeah... makes me feel less good about feeling better about GB, although I'm still not really sure
On October 23 2015 06:54 Xatalos wrote: Meh... maybe rayn could be scum after all? He seems a bit too similar to his last scumgame on VS. There his reads were mostly unexplained and the read progressions were rather hard to understand. He also was quite nitpicky / aggressive towards things that weren't necessarily scummy at all. It's an uncomfortable feeling I got from the last pages.
On October 23 2015 07:08 Xatalos wrote: Hm. I mean... town rayn can be aggressive, but it's usually more focused on specifically scummy things and quite "tunnely". Like a bull seeing red and then attacking until it's dead. From my last scum experience with rayn, he shifted his stances a lot, in weird and unexplained ways. It was more like searching for an angle of attack rather than attacking something suspicious. I get an eerily similar feeling from him this game :/
On October 23 2015 07:12 Xatalos wrote: Has anyone played with town rayn in like the last months? Has he become this... "shifty", hard to grasp as town too?
On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand Xatalos Onegu Alakaslam ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there.
i thought you told me ritoky was town?
yeah that was yesterday.
On October 23 2015 06:53 ritoky wrote:
On October 22 2015 12:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: i think ritoky is town tbh
On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand Xatalos Onegu Alakaslam ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there.
On October 23 2015 05:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't understand the reads on ritoky. He literally said: "BH is town until he does something egregious enough to be considered not town." "generally speaking he doesn't rng as mafia, but i wouldn't put it past him to break meta."
So what? He townreads Blazinghand for something he then says, in the next post, is not a reason to townread Blazinghand`!!?
On October 23 2015 05:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On October 23 2015 05:39 Blazinghand wrote:
On October 23 2015 05:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: I fail to see how i am being "aggressive" here, so could you explain BH?
well, not towards me. You're actually being a little more gentle with me, compared to normal. Normally I'd expect you to end up TRing ritoky for that on your own. Maybe it's been some time since we played together, or my edge is getting dull, but I recall you being pretty good at noticing people's motivations.
ritoky is a really had to read for me and i don't think he has said much of anything that could be in my opinion considered townie.
Maybe it's jsut like you say and other people do not know you as well as i do (and what you can / cannot do as mafia), but still... it's really hard for me to believe both of Xatalos and ritoky actually believe you are town for your actions regarding the rng lynch. I just don't fucking buy it.
nice one bro.
respond.
no
y'know, gonna be honest here. you're the most underwhelming player that people tell me is good on these forums. i just don't see it; maybe i am the one who is so bad i can't comprehend your greatness; but i don't think that's the case.
Well it's quite possible he may just be scum this game. In fact I'm leaning in that direction right now. He can be great as town.
It's like Xatalos really really wants to call rayn mafia but never actually does. He's just kind of throwing suspicion out there about "an uncomfortable feeling". And then he asks people if rayn has been "shifty"? Like he's looking for approval from other people before he actually calls rayn mafia. Xatalos does end up voting rayn, but never confidently says that he's mafia or even probable mafia. Just non-committal "he just may be scum" and "uncomfortable feelings".
What Xatalos calls "shifty" and "unexplained read changes" really is just that rayn flipped his read on ritoky (and maybe his Hopeless read?). Why doesn't he just say that then? Why ask "has town rayn been shifty?" when you could ask "does town rayn flip reads?" The first one paints rayn in a much worse light, but the second one is much clearer and more accurate to what's going on.
In addition, I honestly don't see how flipping a read is even a scum trait. Mafia don't do 180s on their reads for no reason, but town will totally 180 on reads if they reevaluate and think that they used to be wrong. As scum it's so so easy to just stick to your reads no matter what and not have to deal with the suspicion of switching them. It's possible that a townie just disagrees with me on this, but I don't think it's at all accurate to categorize it as "searching for an angle of attack". And I don't think it's at all a reasonable reason for a vote.
These just gave me a really bad feeling. It felt like he's trying to throw suspicion onto rayn without actually attacking him.
I mentioned that I was probably going to flip my read on Xatalos, so here it is. For some reason I didn't pick up on any of this the first few times around, but it started to jump out to me.
I completely agree with what gumshoe said about Xatalos' reads being very waffly: + Show Spoiler +
On October 22 2015 09:43 gumshoe wrote: ...
while your here what do you think of xatalos? Personally I feel as if he dedicates alot of talk to the rng thing without actually looking into what it meant about Bh. Burning filter basically. I also get the feeling that hes using my lurky history as a way to waffle on me, thereby positioning himself to go ether way depending on town.
Dunno. I really don't know how gumshoe should be read. You know? I remember him being a really inactive/bad town once and he was basically policy lynched. Then he was extremely similar as scum and managed to survive like that (I even defended him because of him being similar as town earlier lol). Here he's surprisingly actually posting stuff... Or has he started generally posting lately?
And how would you characterize his meta? My experience has been basically "scummy lurker as either alignment".
Would also like to know why you put ritoky as town as especially marv.
He eventually seems to settle on me bieng town, but by then I think the general sentiment was favoring me? if that makes sense / : he just seems very wishy washy, which we all are somewhat at the start of course, but his posting comes off as very repetitive and pointless. He talks about the rng vote, but doesn't infer any reads from it, he jokes alot about the rain vote but again doesn't derive anything from it. Hes just commenting on stuff that means nothing, and cautiously testing the waters with his uncertain reads.
would also explain his weird early interaction with chrom, someone hes kinda pushing but not really.
I'm open to bieng wrong this game, Xata may very well just be perplexed by my bieng really active, but for now I'm reading him as red / :
I go bed now. good night : D
He consistently keeps his options open. Really, go read his filter and count how many strong reads you see. He has one strong read on Vivax that he posts and that's honestly it (apart from his town feel on BH). Look at how much he says "maybe this" and things like that.
On October 22 2015 07:34 Xatalos wrote: Well I think yamato is probably the most disturbing one of those who have already posted. It's basically nothing but empty complaining. My vote might go to him soon... Though I kind of don't want to abandon the rayn train.
Like what is this? yamato is "disturbing" and he MIGHT move his vote there? It's very non-committal.
If you don't read anything else, look at this post and keep reading from there. He says the exact same waffle about me and yamato THREE TIMES IN A ROW. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective, but it does make sense from the perspective of a mafia who's trying to be active and show that they're "thinking about the game".
I also didn't like Xatalos' opening posts after reading them again. He starts by asking Vivax where to find a comic, and then spends a few posts talking about randomness and the Random class? Mafia often have a hard time entering the thread, and talking about irrelevant stuff like that is an easy way to do it. He posts a lot and appears active, but very few of the posts contain content. Some examples:
On October 22 2015 06:30 Vivax wrote: We might already have caught mafia here since yammo doesn't reply in response to my phantastic intimidating presence.
When he's afk he's mafia.
Unbeatable logic.
I think I've seen him be pretty inactive/useless as scum all around, and mostly OK as town. I think there was one(?) game where he was inactive/useless as town too though.
(This one appears relevant but actually says nothing about yamato, more waffle).
Also his townread on BH doesn't make much sense like rayn has already said. Maybe he's just town and made a bad read (imo) on non-alignment indicative stuff, but I think there's a reasonable chance that as mafia Xatalos just threw out a townread without thinking about the logical town reasoning for it.
On October 23 2015 07:49 Vivax wrote: Bothers me how first GB goes from "Vivax mafia cause tone" when most people agreed that it's my town tone, and then thinks of another reason to scumread me for and switches over to saying that he's suspicious of my townreads cause he doesn't know how they're formed.
So um yeah, either my tone sucks but then my townreads don't have anything to do with it, and when confronted with other people's opinions (marv was hitting that with a pneumatic hammer) he abandons it and starts looking for another reason to bitch about my alignment, so he asks me some fancy questions "why do you townread these dudes" when it's a question he could ask anyone without having to scumread them first.
Maybe you're onto something.... Well, it does kind of feel like a premeditated push.
No it doesn't. 1.There is no scum-motivation behind trying to push someone who is being universally townread. If scum wants to push someone, they will push mislynchable townies. They (usually) are never going against a hard target.
2.I pushed Vivax because I don't like his tone and his easy town passes. I can find it scummy before further investigating it.
I'm re-reading the game atm.
1. Wow look at you with the pants on your head, scum would never wear pants on their head.
2. The point is that you can just stick to your guns in that case instead of complaining about me not explaining my reads which is something that doesn't catch scum most of the time. There are dozens of read lists in this game and not every read is explained properly, it's a bottomless barrel.
For example there's you saying marv has changed his playstyle and you're not sure about it and then he's suddenly green in the list post of yours, if I ask you why you'd say "I changed my read cause bsbs", great. If I call you scum for it you will just give a reasonable explanation.
Or the irony in saying my reads are too static but being suspicious about me giving out too many of them, and basically being the first to do so.
You accuse first and ask questions later, that's what I demonstrated with the post of mine and I have a hard time seeing you as the kind of guy who usually tunnels me for reasons I don't understand (like Koshi/Artanis/marv in earlier days).
On October 23 2015 19:11 marvellosity wrote: I think Slam is mafia.
It feels to me like he decided to scumread rayn and then is kinda just picking out posts to make it happen.
On October 22 2015 15:25 Alakaslam wrote: Also Rayn, you throwing your vote away is suspicious. You know I am unlynchable until Lylo, why are you parking your vote on LHF?
I kinda frowned at this post at the time, I didn't like it, didn't know how to explain why, I just think it's a weasely way of attacking rayn for his vote, and then all the subsequent posts about rayn.
Plus nothing Slam says is really interesting or out there or... anything.
like the post I quoted from Slam up there - I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it doesn't feel at all how town Slam reacts to someone like rayn voting for him?
EPT
