EPTLotV Beta Balance Update -- September 17 - Page 13
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Footler
United States560 Posts
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XlorD
Germany16 Posts
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K)Vincent
Belarus29 Posts
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:35 K)Vincent wrote: Broodwar was the best game ever, still ppl playing it after 15 years and it doesnt have macro boosters... But we need something new, like RooT Hydra said, something to give pros more macro chances relative to their skill... so why not make mules and chronoboosts unbankable like inject and revert inject the same as hots? then the game simply becomes too unforgiving and mechanical, because giving too much emphasis on repetitive tasks only acts as a band-aid fix to increase the skill cap blizzard has to find a good balance between catering to the casuals and professionals with a "easy to learn, hard to master" approach | ||
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K)Vincent
Belarus29 Posts
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RelmerSc2
France2 Posts
I'm Relmer, a top Grand Master Protoss player on the beta LOTV and i'm here to explain my though on this patch and i hope Blizzard will have a look about this post.. First of all, i want to apologize for my bad ensligh and tell that i'm writing this post impartial manner and just to help blizzard to increase his game for us and also for me. I think this patch is a disaster for the game and i trully don't understand how we could get there. Two patch ago (i mean the massive macro changes patch), the changes were huge but really interesting. The economy was slow down a little bit, but not enough to make the game not speed and not interesting, on the contrary it forced player to be really agressive on the harassment because if you get some kill on the opponent's economy, he couldn't chronoboost/mules/or make 15drones in 10sec and so you get a "Real" advantage on the game. Also it forced your opponent to counter harass to be able to continue and to hope win the game. It seems to be the will of blizzard to go this way concerning the gameplay of Legacy Of The Void, and it is actually a really good thing. Let's me explain why : We're all agree than Starcraft II is one of the best (if it's not the best) solo competitive game. and i personally think than it's the best of all competitive game (if i compare it to CSGO/LOL/DOTA). But, it's one of the worst game in terms of viewers so far. So the question is .. How to make Starcraft II a better competitive game ? The question is not that hard to answer. Beyond the debate of the WCS system which may prevent other tournament because of the calendar, which is a problem because there are no other tournament except WCS... etc..., the point i trully want to highlight is the "game design" i mean by "game design" the fact than people WANT TO WATCH Starcraft II. (and want to play) It's simple and i want to quote "Day9" to do the analysis, by "game design" i mean: 1 -The number of times that the opponents will have to clash (i mean during the game). 2 -The strategy : we play a RTS and strategy is the heart of this game. (but there is a huge work about this in LOTV concerning the scoot AND --> the lategame zerg vision (protoss have oracle and terrans have scan)). 3 -The skill : there are no secret about Starcraft II is one of the harder game to play at professional level. 4 -The context : number of different situation/map/position etc.. So if we continue to the analysis, we're all agree that Starcraft II HOTS became a game where opponent could play a game of 35mn without a single fight, because of Swarmhost, but also because of mech terran, because of forcefield, because of the balance of power between Zerg units and Protoss/Terran units, and also because zerg can not attack a protoss who's camping and also because a protoss can not attack a zerg who's camping, because of scan, because of sensor tower.. Well, everything in the game seems to be broken, obviously it is way more easier to defend than attack. So it's clear than there are two keys facts : -the harassment -the map conception The harassment with the current economic system is simply not as good as we want to believe, JUST because of the fact than player just need to chronoboost/mules/or make 15drones and everything seems okay, "i just lost a little times in my build order, no big deal". But during the patch without mules, chronoboost and 2 larva by inject, the harassment was the key of the game. There are no more "passif mode" possible, because you economy was slow the first 10mn and it's was not possible to investing in a lot a defence like turret/bunker/cannon/spore/spine because each mineral, each drone was to precious. So if your opponent get some economic damage, the only way to win was to do the same, and so the game become totally crazy in term of multitasking and way more difficult in general (which is so good to feel when you're a player and also a viewer for sure). In addition it will increase a lot the number 1 of game design analysis (The meeting of Clash) The map conception is the second important point. Why ? Because maps must be created in order defense to be harder and easier access to bases, Simply to to able to harass the most as possible with drops, nydus, blink, reapers. (For example, Map like Overgrowth was totally a joke, Protoss and Terran bases were too easy to defend and zerg had no choice except camp and hope). In addition i think it should be better for the viewers and also for the player (i guess) to add 4/5 maps in the map pool, in order to increase the number 4 of the game design analysis (The context). To conclude, i think the last patch is total bullshit, and i feel blizzard is afraid to try news things because they absolutely want to make LOTV a better game, but they are reluctant when they read (for example) the all terran community crying for their mules or others stupid things like that. The patch with the macro changes was totaly AWESOME and i hope blizzard gonna react and go though this way again. Thanks for reading. Relmer. | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:41 K)Vincent wrote: like they did with Heroes of the storm? worst moba ever made with 2k viewers on twitch? no, but with previous patch there wasn't really much you could improve on with macro mechanics, since both mules and injects were automated while chrono was permanent. There was no learning process whatsoever, it was completely automatic and was a step in the wrong direction. also this has nothing to do with heroes of the storm, that game is in a different category than RTS | ||
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K)Vincent
Belarus29 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:41 RelmerSc2 wrote: Hi, I'm Relmer, a top Grand Master Protoss player on the beta LOTV and i'm here to explain my though on this patch and i hope Blizzard will have a look about this post.. First of all, i want to apologize for my bad ensligh and tell that i'm writing this post impartial manner and just to help blizzard to increase his game for us and also for me. I think this patch is a disaster for the game and i trully don't understand how we could get there. Two patch ago (i mean the massive macro changes patch), the changes were huge but really interesting. The economy was slow down a little bit, but not enough to make the game not speed and not interesting, on the contrary it forced player to be really agressive on the harassment because if you get some kill on the opponent's economy, he couldn't chronoboost/mules/or make 15drones in 10sec and so you get a "Real" advantage on the game. Also it forced your opponent to counter harass to be able to continue and to hope win the game. It seems to be the will of blizzard to go this way concerning the gameplay of Legacy Of The Void, and it is actually a really good thing. Let's me explain why : We're all agree than Starcraft II is one of the best (if it's not the best) solo competitive game. and i personally think than it's the best of all competitive game (if i compare it to CSGO/LOL/DOTA). But, it's one of the worst game in terms of viewers so far. I don't agree about making 15 drones istantly, drop mules and chronoboost make u "ok" after a successful harrass... I'm GM too and I can say that if a terran lost 10 scv to my banes or if I lost 10 drones from an oracle he/I lost the game if there is a good timing in the next attack, it's a matter of skill | ||
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RelmerSc2
France2 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:51 K)Vincent wrote: I don't agree about making 15 drones istantly, drop mules and chronoboost make u "ok" after a successful harrass... I'm GM too and I can say that if a terran lost 10 scv to my banes or if I lost 10 drones from an oracle he/I lost the game if there is a good timing in the next attack, it's a matter of skill We saw Maru this morning down to 0 Scv vs 40 drones and totally crush Rogue 10mn later... How could you tell that ? :D He made 40 scv in few minute, build an army, started upgrade and just won the game I just don't understand why this happend, Be still a head with 0 scv against 40 drones just because he has 2 banshees and 3mules.. that totally crazy | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
* Remove Mule * Remove Chrono * 2 Larva Manual Inject w/ Queing Balance Terran early game around this and see where we go. It's like universally agreed upon now that everyone enjoyed the game way more without the mechanics, but this version with the manual smaller inject that allows low level players to queue would be the best route; good injecting players can still differentiate themselves. As for Terran and toss, let's be real, nobody was differentiating themselves from lower level players with their MULE dropping skills lol | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:51 K)Vincent wrote: I don't agree about making 15 drones istantly, drop mules and chronoboost make u "ok" after a successful harrass... I'm GM too and I can say that if a terran lost 10 scv to my banes or if I lost 10 drones from an oracle he/I lost the game if there is a good timing in the next attack, it's a matter of skill the early game harass is already extremely strong as it is, and easy to pull off and yields you high rewards (speaking about the plethora of options both terran and protoss have to damage mineral lines). If you want to nerf macro mechanics you would have to nerf the early-game harass or the game becomes "who kills more workers, wins" -- especially with some of the current ladder maps like dash & terminal | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam. How FUN do you think that would make csgo? How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs? It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene. *Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:57 ffadicted wrote: Bad patch... I think we need to go with: * Remove Mule * Remove Chrono * 2 Larva Manual Inject w/ Queing Balance Terran early game around this and see where we go. It's like universally agreed upon now that everyone enjoyed the game way more without the mechanics, but this version with the manual smaller inject that allows low level players to queue would be the best route; good injecting players can still differentiate themselves. As for Terran and toss, let's be real, nobody was differentiating themselves from lower level players with their MULE dropping skills lol Agreed but ditch inject all together and force more macro hatches. Tweak the larva times/numbers per hatch if necessary. If jerg is really still "2ez" without inject then add something else in thats more interesting than forced 30 second injects. | ||
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SCguineapig
Netherlands289 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Zerg now has to inject manually again, but injects are still only 75% efficiency, while Terran got the old Mule back on top of the 12worker start buff (relative to zerg economy)? | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 18 2015 23:59 ShambhalaWar wrote: I would like people to consider this, In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam. How FUN do you think that would make csgo? How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs? It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene. *Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 19 2015 00:14 Zealously wrote: I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable. Knife | ||
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andrewlt
United States7701 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30545 Posts
On September 19 2015 00:09 Big J wrote: I don't get to play in the past (and coming) days, so could someone just clarify: Zerg now has to inject manually again, but injects are still only 75% efficiency, while Terran got the old Mule back on top of the 12worker start buff (relative to zerg economy)? Nah it's back to four larva per inject again | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
I asked a few of my friends who tried the game, got a rank (bronze/silver mostly,) and then quit why they didn't like the game. "I don't like the feeling that my entire army is about to die at any moment. I'm scared to macro" "I don't like that I can lose if I am not looking at my workers for 1 second" "The fights always seem one-sided, either my army melts or his army melts." "Are there still banelings?" These were all in response to me telling them about the removal of macro mechanics because I, like many others here, assumed they would be intrigued. Almost every one of them mentioned a specific unit they remember hating and 2/3 of those were aoe units. (bane, collo, banshee) These are all people who played at least one RTS in multiplayer, mostly dawn of war for what it's worth. I'm not trying to say that my friends represent everyone who doesn't play, nor am I insinuating that they are correct in any objective sense. What I am saying is that there is more to getting swaths people to play SC2 than reducing the amount of clicks involved in macro. That being said, I personally am disappointed that they seem to be reverting changes rather than making changes. Hopefully this is just a placeholder for a new approach to the macro mechanics | ||
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