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Blegh, i really liked the auto inject feature.
i'm not against macro mechanics at all as long as they require some decisions. Chronoboost gives some decisions. Supply depot vs scanning is also a decision. Injecting however is not, it's bland boring stuff you have to do every so many seconds to play zerg well. I can't be bothered with zerg at all anymore with it back because I can't be arsed knowing the biggest improvement i can make simply is injecting well.
And I think what Avilo sais is ridiculous what without those macro mechanics the game is too easy, you have a ton of different stuff to maximize and do already anyway. Scouting better, doing small harass, all that stuff. Injecting is just not an interesting thing you almost never not inject for strategical reasons because you need to use the energy for something else. You simply make extra queens then..
And for viewership it's stupid to, people aren't impressed by good injecting. They like to see good unit switches of zerg, perfect timing making army at just the right moment. Playing as greedy as one can get or suddenly attacking with everything.
If the game becomes a little more warcraft 3/4 wouldn't be that bad I think, that game in terms of viewing is far more intense.
Sure you can go too far with macro mechanics, Age of mythology made that mistake once. But there unit making was automated and units were incredibly dull nor was there much micro. That problem is not nearly close to existing in sc2 and there is a ton of macro left.
Just keep inject automated. Zerg still has creep to macro. Protoss has simple chronoboost. Terran automated MULEs. It was the best change in LOTV and i'm sad to see it reverted.
On one hand nice to see Blizz trying various stuff out and not being afraid to revert and the like. On the other hand the pace at which they test and the moves they make are too stupid :<.
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All the whine about Inject... I wonder why they even played before these weeks of Beta with Zerg for years and now they are like "I quit"
For the people who stop playing years ago... well, nice for they, so can go back to their games, SC2 wasn't for them in the first place
This changes give me mixed feelings, I don't know what to expect on the game anymore, and all the other problems and things I wanted to see changed remain the same now... but Collosus damage has been nerfed at least and Cyclone seems better, while Libs finally got nerfed.
I don't see a reason to move from SB to LotV tho... but at least it could be worth watching when pros play.
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On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote:
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
I get what you're trying to say, but the people who want those three abilities removed, are hyper conservative, and want to revert the level play back to days when people were playing Golden Eye on N64 and the original Resident Evil on Playstation 1. Shit, dude. People were still playing Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness in the Reagan-Days of RTS (Broodwar)(Sorry non-US member for the Reagan reference, lol).
Since Larva is basically Zerg's barracks/factory/starport / gateway/robo/stargate, it was utterly absurd to put it on auto-cast. MULE and Chrono aren't even in the same conversation as Spawn Larva. I think we all knew auto-Zerg was going to be removed, lol.
I'm super happy to see they're going to start fixing some of the broken units in the game. This will make things better for everyone.
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On September 19 2015 06:24 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote:
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Since Larva is basically Zerg's barracks/factory/starport / gateway/robo/stargate, it was utterly absurd to put it on auto-cast. MULE and Chrono aren't even in the same conversation as Spawn Larva. I think we all knew auto-Zerg was going to be removed, lol.
I think what a lot of people seem to be missing about Zerg macro is that it's not about injecting properly - as some others have said, larva inject skill is literally just remembering to run through some keystrokes every 45 seconds. The real key to Zerg macro is choosing what to do with your larave. Do you make all drones, some drones and roaches, all mutas? This is the important decision that separates great Zergs from the swarm.
To your point about Zergs making all units from one building - that's true, but Protoss and Terran only have three unit-producing buildings, four if you count nexus/cc. Not that big of a difference. On top of that, for gateway units, you literally click and a unit appears. That's much simpler than having to choose between workers or army every time you make a unit.
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On September 19 2015 05:03 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On September 19 2015 03:56 Spyridon wrote:On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote:
SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Maybe auto injects yes, but the majority of the community HATED the macro mecahnics. It's the "vocal minority" that WANTS the macro mechanics to stay.... Just look at the polls.... If you like macro mechanics YOU are the minority... to be fair its pretty close to a 50/50 split though..its not like only 10% of people like macro mechanics. here is 1 poll going on during "The Patch" 33% strongly against the latest patch 25% strongly for it. 11% sitting on the fence with a 4 or 5 or 6. http://strawpoll.me/5516358/r One of many... just look at the post on this forum that contains a list of the polls...
and DK stated the team was split 50/50.
seeing all the other polls and opinions in various places i think DK's 50/50 split thing passes the smell test; is it EXACTLY 50.0000 % .. no its not...
but, don't try to say that only 10% want the macro mechanics added back because that just aint so
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On September 18 2015 07:07 Kyrth wrote:
I hate spawn larva so much, that I don't even want to play
gtfo then
User was temp banned for this post.
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lol @ the children on the first page who complained they wouldn't be playing anymore. Ten bucks says they're online right now.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote:SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place. Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies. Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well. While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4. The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome. I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair. Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along. Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground. I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet. Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do. I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level  :D
avilo not whining about starcraft 2 balance. hell must be freezing over.
anyway, im not sure that the current changes are in line with what blizzard has been trying to do since the start of the beta. im fairly confident that we'll see at least one more big macro patch before the design phase is over.
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I was thinking about reducing creep tumor's creep generation radius a bit (85%?)
so it would need more attention to spread creep. creep mana cost would have to be reduced as well (20?)
to be used with autocast/channeled inject.
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love having some macro mechanics skill re-implemented. photon nerf was necessary. thank you blizzard. also. no auto inject is fantastic
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On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote:SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place. Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies. Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well. While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4. The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome. I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair. Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along. Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground. I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet. Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do. I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level :D
Really good post, and i completely agree. Blizz should be focusing on the units now, including the old ones from previous expansions, Tanks, Voidrays,Tempests, Hydra's to name but a few
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Well, guess I won't have to feel silly anymore for constantly pressing E to drop MULEs even though it was automated.
Such habits are hard to break. 
The one thing I did like about the removal of the MULE was that the Orbital was no longer a forced choice.
You could actually choose to leave your CC as a CC and do something else with the minerals.
It also opened up the option for more use of the PF. Oh well.
Guess the manner MULE is back then.
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I continue to lose faith in this game. It's like I'm being purged of the influence of a religion as I realise just how wrong it is.
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on avilo's post : no thanks for new units, we're already at a far too high number if you ask me.
When are they going to come back to their senses about overcharge ? Just scrap the ability if you can't do something good with it.
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On September 19 2015 22:33 Scrubwave wrote:
And right before RB Battlegrounds finals, oh joy!
Yeah RBBG has gotten really unlucky with patches.
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On September 19 2015 19:45 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote:SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place. Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies. Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well. While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4. The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome. I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair. Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along. Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground. I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet. Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do. I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level :D Really good post, and i completely agree. Blizz should be focusing on the units now, including the old ones from previous expansions, Tanks, Voidrays,Tempests, Hydra's to name but a few
There are a lot of things blizzard could have done with this beta, in the end they accomplished very little for the time they had.
Even worse, a lot of the bigger changes are ultimately band aid fixes which create more problems themselves.
My only hope is that blizzard won't be afraid to do big changes even when the game is out, if not sc2 won't ever be reaching its true potential.
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Actually, I'd say one of the biggest effects the macro patches have had on the game is game length. I don't have any actual evidence to back this up other than the fact that I watch a tremendous amount of SC2, but one of the things I noticed when watching SC2 during this particular period of the beta phase was that games were just a lot longer. In HOTS, you can trade energy for economy or trade energy for tech (the ladder necessary for timing attacks), but during this particular beta phase you could really only trade that energy for economy, and it was all automated. As a result, nearly all games went the longer macro match route!
Although I like the idea of easing up the macro mechanics, it really messes with the variability of the overall game. As much as I like a long, epic war between two players, some of the best SC2 games are actually those 12-15 minute games where you're watching a player weather out a timing attack (like a Blink Stalker all-in against a 3 base Zerg scrambling to defend with just roaches). And it's not like that capability completely disappeared, but when your macro mechanics are kinda automated for you, it makes weathering one out a lot easier than it was in the past since there a are fewer variables to make mistakes with.
Secondly, Archon Mode appears to be becoming a much desired "thing" to watch in the eSports scene. In Archon mode, games are just "bigger" with fewer overall mistakes being made. They're fantastic to watch, but they could use some added variability. With two players, you just need a lot to do.
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On September 19 2015 00:14 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 23:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I would like people to consider this,
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam.
How FUN do you think that would make csgo?
How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs?
It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene.
*Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable.
I think I did not make my point very clear.
That being said, reloading is a legitimate decision that depends on a good number of variables.
For example, if I spray 17 rounds of a 20 round mag to kill 1 of 2 opponents, do I then reload (which will probably lead to me getting killed by his spray down) or do I try to kill him with my last 3 rounds? Do I switch to my pistol which will cause less damage, but give me more rounds? do I spray my 3 rounds and go for the knife? Do i have a nade or flash?
Past that, the reason I made the comparison is because reload is a required mechanic at some point in a match, and inject is no different. For the first minute of the game there might be a choice to inject or tumor, but past that it is only a requirement.
So why not make inject simpler like the reload? The argument people are putting out there is that, "if we make it easier, then pros won't be able to stand out, because everyone will macro like a pro."
My point, is that pros will still stand out even if inject is easier or automatic (or close to automatic, I don't think people would want auto reload in csgo). This is why i used csgo as an example, because the "mechanics" of the game are extremely simple (you press one key to reload), yet the skill ceiling is extremely high.
Global elite is a true accomplishment, if you made it that high your not a pleb. And the people that made it that high didn't do so off complicated mechanics like inject cycles. If you made inject the equivalent of reload in difficultly to execute, you would still have a large gap between professional players and everyone else. It wouldn't be even remotely close, it would be the same as it is today with the current mechanics, because there is so much to master in LOTV.
By the reverse logic, if you made the reload mechanic as difficult as inject (a series of keystrokes you spam) you wouldn't make the better players "stand out more," you would probably just stifle the fun of the game and frustrate professional players.
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On September 20 2015 09:08 Ranari wrote:
Actually, I'd say one of the biggest effects the macro patches have had on the game is game length. I don't have any actual evidence to back this up other than the fact that I watch a tremendous amount of SC2, but one of the things I noticed when watching SC2 during this particular period of the beta phase was that games were just a lot longer. In HOTS, you can trade energy for economy or trade energy for tech (the ladder necessary for timing attacks), but during this particular beta phase you could really only trade that energy for economy, and it was all automated. As a result, nearly all games went the longer macro match route!
Although I like the idea of easing up the macro mechanics, it really messes with the variability of the overall game. As much as I like a long, epic war between two players, some of the best SC2 games are actually those 12-15 minute games where you're watching a player weather out a timing attack (like a Blink Stalker all-in against a 3 base Zerg scrambling to defend with just roaches). And it's not like that capability completely disappeared, but when your macro mechanics are kinda automated for you, it makes weathering one out a lot easier than it was in the past since there a are fewer variables to make mistakes with.
Secondly, Archon Mode appears to be becoming a much desired "thing" to watch in the eSports scene. In Archon mode, games are just "bigger" with fewer overall mistakes being made. They're fantastic to watch, but they could use some added variability. With two players, you just need a lot to do.
Watch the red bull tourney, the best players in the world and mistakes are still made. I don't think they need anything else to do.
If 2 pros can't perfectly play 1 side in lotv, that says a lot about the skill ceiling and multitasking.
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EPT
