Below are the latest balance changes for the StarCraft II Legacy of the Void Beta. Let us know what you think once you've gotten a chance to test them out.
Protoss
Chrono boost cooldown increased from 1 to 4 seconds.
Chrono boost rate increased from 20% to 22.5%
Disruptor cost changed from 100/200 to 150/150.
Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 21 to 11 seconds.
Terran
Calldown: MULE, Calldown: Extra Supplies, and Scanner Sweep now all function as they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Cyclone
Auto-attack now also hits air units.
Increased Lock On Anti-Air damage to 240.
Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade changed:
400 +200 armored versus ground.
360 +240 armored versus air.
Liberator's Defender Mode requires research again.
Cost is 150/150.
Research time is 79 seconds.
Researched at Starport with Tech Lab
Zerg
Creep now recedes twice as fast.
Overlord transport upgrade now only requires an Evolution Chamber.
Roach burrow move speed decreased from 3.85 to 3.14.
Spawn Larva
No longer can be autocast.
Multiple casts can now be queued on a single base.
Blizzard's devilish plan to alter the macro mechanics and then slowly revert them back to how they were, all in order to burn the remaining time of beta without having to do any hard design changes, is close to coming full circle.
On September 18 2015 07:12 Hider wrote: Inject reversal is so dumb.
They specifically stated in their last community post that they intend to test this out for a week and then either move on to the next idea for the following week, or make a decision of one of the 3 (possibly four by the end of September) larva management models, going forward into fine-tuning. I'm disappointed with this patch too, but as this is a horrible mechanic, I'm quite confident it will not make it into the final game.
Yeah, now we are very close to Hots with some new units. Thats disappointing. I truly enjoyed zerg with no injects, giving me a hard time to continue playing.
Wtf, why did they change MULEs back? Now we're just gonna get spammable MULEhammers again. They finally made a good change and they fucked it up again.
Offensive pylon overcharge needed a nerf. That was dumb to begin with and remains dumb. They have to get rid of that before release. You can't make offensive pylon overcharge, but also have defensive pylon overcharge be useful. The balance for those two goals doesn't exist where both are equal.
Liberator nerf was expected. 1 base liberator builds were super strong. Terran is going to lose some power versus Protoss because now Terrans have to actually build starports that have techlabs on them. Bio-rator with 2 reactor starports was a super beefy comp.
Cyclone ... what ... is it good now? Should I make cyclones? Without mules they weren't affordable ... but now ... what is the verdict? Are they a thing?
I don't think I'll play random for this patch...probably race pick Terran and Protoss 50/50.
I hope that they revert to no macro boosters, the game was so much more enjoyable and fun to play vs. the 50% patch and the HotS model.
Edit: Zerg was actually quite nice to play microing stuff for a change vs split/A-move/Inject/back to army.
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
And yes ^ totally agree. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
On September 18 2015 07:49 CometNine wrote: Well I hope the macro crowd are happy now.
I don't think I'll play random for this patch...probably race pick Terran and Protoss 50/50. I hope that they revert to no macro boosters, the game was so much more enjoyable and fun to play vs. the 50% patch and the HotS model.
Yep I play Terran, and I had the best time of my SC2 life playing with no macro booster =^.^=
!!! Great step back in the right direction. Keeping these mechanics simply expands gameplay possibilities. As always, if you enjoy focusing on micro, please consider playing styles and building units that let you do so.
I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
On September 18 2015 07:08 dust7 wrote: Blizzard's devilish plan to alter the macro mechanics and then slowly revert them back to how they were, all in order to burn the remaining time of beta without having to do any hard design changes, is close to coming full circle.
haha yeah, this pisses me off SO MUCH tbh. They could test a lot of really important stuff the community asked for since wol beta, but NOPE macro mechanics are way more important!!
I had high expectations for this beta and blizzards willingness to change things, big things. But i don't feel like they used the time efficiently at all and i also don't think that LOTV is any better than Hots (quite the opposite tbh)
Protoss changes all seem decent, pylon overcharge should be way less ridiculous after this, I have zero clue how the Chrono number changes will affect everything.
The Terran changes kind of are a bit of a let down MULE wise but the bottom line is if you want to not play against Mech every game then they are necessary, so in the end, I'd choose the lesser of two evils and let Terran be able to play bio, as long as MULES can't be abused late game it's really all good. CONFUSION on the Cyclone changes is that 600 for ground damage? I must be reading that wrong.
THANK YOU for this sensible Liberator nerf, I would have been fine if they just required a tech lab but this is a good little starter nerf. It still has the potential for cancer turtle mech and that is no bueno that style should be annihilated via balance team.
Now for the changes I really care about (my races)
The stack thing seems neat, I'm pretty bad with it but it plays alot like HOTS and I'm sure the proper timings and mechanics around it could be cool, I can see how it rewards the top players and doesn't punish the noobs.
But the Overlord transport thing is just a complete let down, you guys have a chance to make Zerg drop play good and reliable not gimmicky and your blowing it.
- Overseers not automatically can store units upon morphing
Make Overseers the Zerg drop machine, because while it's cheap and easily massable, it still costs gas and has no offensive capabilities like Prisms and Medivacs, Overlord drops are just things to do when your so ahead you can be silly, Zerg needs a way to be able to quickly and reliably get units around defenses, not do a troll doom drop when the game is already won.
Also, where the hell is the Infestor at in Kims eyes? The unit is total crap, I mean the Ghost is super niche but it still has it's uses and the Infestor is nothing compared to the mighty Templar.
Wasn't Infestors supposed to receive a new ability to replace Neural Parasite? (Shit ability btw has no place in an RTS)
The unit was nerfed into the fucking ground and Zerg is left with a useful but flimsy and unwieldy gas intensive Hive level caster that while good specializes more in anti mech/anti mass air and Zerg atm needs something more immediately accessible to make a mana based impact on the battlefield. Not saying we should make Infestors OP again but should we just leave them impotent? This is a core Zerg unit since WOL and shouldn't just be cast aside for stupid ass units like the Cyclone that require no skill to use.
I mean, there are just a variety of ways to buff the unit that wouldn't even take much thought process.
I don't see balancing around offensive photon overcharge as being good for the game. I don't care about the ultimate numbers for balancing, but it should be a defensive tool, not a weird cannon rush. You're ultimately going to have to have to make it really weak due to its offensive use, which makes it much, much worse defensively.
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
how about increasing the base larva max count? 5 instead of 3?
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
Thats because they are going against what the majority actually want! See poll below for proof:
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
it's the same for the other races. We have to hit our production circles every x seconds or we are punished severaly. Zerg doesn't get punished for missing production circles because they bank larvae and then just spawn all units at once. Injects balance this out. Just view them as the zerg production circle.
What the hell are you doing Blizzard? The MACRO should be remove with no doubt. Most high rank players in Korea wanted to remove MACRO. and now see what happened. Why did you get feedback from that? I can't understand it. MACRO only bring us getting tired of gaming.
Calldown: MULE, Calldown: Extra Supplies, and Scanner Sweep now all function as they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Why have the nerfed the fuck out of chrono but left terran mechanics exactly the same?
The inject change was justified regardless if zerg is expected to be micro intensive; their mechanic was way more punishing to miss for 5 seconds than protoss or terran mechanics
here we have new chrono that is harder to use on 3+ bases and less powerful at the same time. Why?
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
Thats because they are going against what the majority actually want! See poll below for proof:
Just because people think for now that it's more fun that they can play all 3 races without any practice doesn't mean it will be good for keeping players in the long term. The removal of macro mechanics severely reduces the skill cap a lot of players strive for.
Like no jokes, if people don't like macroing or can't seem to remember to do stuff, they do literally have the option of archon mode playing as the army controller.
Mules should have a diminishing return on amount of active mules on the map at once.
PLEASEEE FIX THE ECON. The macro changes are great! But please reduce starting workers to 10 at most and get rid of the weird 1/2 minerals every other patch model. Next, please redesign liberator and cyclone! Then you will have a kick ass game
I mean, what do they wanna test? The chrono boost should almost be 100% match with the Hots efficiency, minus the saving up. Terran they just admit is back to Hots. And Stacking does not help if you wan to use energy effenciently and you go by muscle memory and timing anyways for the retarded task, so also just Hots.
Gonna watch closely this week, really wonder if all the matchups are back to 5 minute build up into 5 second clash.
On September 18 2015 07:07 Kyrth wrote: I hate spawn larva so much, that I don't even want to play
and I didn't want to play without it. Blizzard can't please everyone.
Fair enough. I hadn't played in 5 years anyway. This was was fun for a month though. Maybe it's for the best because it was taking up too much time. ^^
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
it's the same for the other races. We have to hit our production circles every x seconds or we are punished severaly. Zerg doesn't get punished for missing production circles because they bank larvae and then just spawn all units at once. Injects balance this out. Just view them as the zerg production circle.
Exactly, i don't understand why people don't get this. Zerg without manual injects is BY FAR the easiest race to macro with. If we want the game to be balanced around the difficulty of execution (which it imo should be) we at least have to be close. Zerg without injects isn't anywhere near close to this goal though.
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
it's the same for the other races. We have to hit our production circles every x seconds or we are punished severaly. Zerg doesn't get punished for missing production circles because they bank larvae and then just spawn all units at once. Injects balance this out. Just view them as the zerg production circle.
Exactly. I don't see why there should be a handicap introduced with larva inject at all. Keep falling behind on production cycles as terran/protoss? Well, you need to put down more buildings than you can fully saturate on your economy and then use them. If you want to make the game easier for zergs, you have to start doing that for all races, like pulling money out only as things are being built instead of being queued.
i really dont like the photon overcharge changes and with the zerg early game and considering how terran has lots of early game power with some builds protoss will have to adjust a lot to the photon overcharge change to be defensive
Calldown: MULE, Calldown: Extra Supplies, and Scanner Sweep now all function as they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Why have the nerfed the fuck out of chrono but left terran mechanics exactly the same?
The inject change was justified regardless if zerg is expected to be micro intensive; their mechanic was way more punishing to miss for 5 seconds than protoss or terran mechanics
here we have new chrono that is harder to use on 3+ bases and less powerful at the same time. Why?
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
Thats because they are going against what the majority actually want! See poll below for proof:
this is semi-auto for protoss, full macro for terran and full but changed to be more forgiving for zerg
Well, with the new Protoss chrono, chrono is ALWAYS on. So instead of 50% faster its 20 something but you never run out of energy and things are always being chronoed.
I mean, what do they wanna test? The chrono boost should almost be 100% match with the Hots efficiency, minus the saving up.
HOTS chrono was both substantially more versatile in the early game and easier to use in the mid to lategame (manually managing the positions of chrono's from 3-7 nexii is way harder than hitting 5c-click-click-click no matter how many you have)
Calldown: MULE, Calldown: Extra Supplies, and Scanner Sweep now all function as they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Why have the nerfed the fuck out of chrono but left terran mechanics exactly the same?
Chrono is 'always on' now. With old chrono, every minute you got ~13.6 seconds of production time reduction and with new chrono you get 13.5 seconds of production time reduction per minute.
Calldown: MULE, Calldown: Extra Supplies, and Scanner Sweep now all function as they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Why have the nerfed the fuck out of chrono but left terran mechanics exactly the same?
The inject change was justified regardless if zerg is expected to be micro intensive; their mechanic was way more punishing to miss for 5 seconds than protoss or terran mechanics
here we have new chrono that is harder to use on 3+ bases and less powerful at the same time. Why?
On September 18 2015 08:02 AgamemnonSC2 wrote:
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
Thats because they are going against what the majority actually want! See poll below for proof:
this is semi-auto for protoss, full macro for terran and full but changed to be more forgiving for zerg
Well, with the new Protoss chrono, chrono is ALWAYS on. So instead of 50% faster its 20 something but you never run out of energy and things are always being chronoed.
Calldown: MULE, Calldown: Extra Supplies, and Scanner Sweep now all function as they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Why have the nerfed the fuck out of chrono but left terran mechanics exactly the same?
Chrono is 'always on' now. With old chrono, every minute you got ~13.6 seconds of production time reduction and with new chrono you get 13.5 seconds of production time reduction per minute.
The problem is, it becomes weaker than old chrono in 2 main situations:
Firstly, you want to focus chrono on fewer buildings than you have nexii. Can no longer benefit at all.
Secondly (and the main one) you cannot bank it at all. If you would have banked chrono for even 3 seconds, your new chrono is going to be weaker for what you want to do.
In HOTS for example, you could always save chrono to keep your first colossus at 1.5x production rate for the entire build time.
You could do the same for your first gateway unit even. Now, there's simply no way to get past 1.225x.
You can chrono more things, but it's like you have old chrono but you're forced to not chrono the same building multiple times in a row and intead have to split them 50/50 on two buildings. That's not what you'd want to do at all.
-----
If it's going to be kept that way, in order to have similar power it would need to boost more than before to compensate for the brand new weaknesses (with no benefit).
It would also need to be changed so it's not harder than the old chrono to use near-optimally when you have 4-7 nexii for no reason.
camera hotkey 2, 5c-shift-clickclickclickclickclick
vs
camera hotkey 1, click nexus, c, camera hotkey 2, click camera hotkey 2, click nexus, c, click camera hotkey 3, click nexus, c, camera hotkey 2, click camera hotkey 4, click nexus, c, camera hotkey 2, click camera hotkey 5, click nexus, c, camera hotkey 2, click
i am constantly running into this situation and am not afraid to say it drives me up the wall! It previously took 5-9 keystrokes (5 of them being consecutive C's or even just C held down) and now it takes 24 keystrokes with your hands dancing over the keyboard like a concert pianist.
The new chrono is similar and easier to use on 1 and 2 nexus than the old one, you can't forget to chrono for like a minute using it. That was never a problem for me though even as a dia player (and it wasn't a huge deal for a gold-plat player to miss a few early on, not as big a deal as injects) but the downsides are enormous.
It's a bit weaker balance wise, more limited in what you can do with it and it's and waaaaaaaay more annoying to use by the time you have 3 or 4 nexii.
This is a huge Liberator nerf. Will slow the AG mode down by 104 seconds (over a minute and a half). It is also adding 50/75 to the cost of anti-ground mode. Let's go test to see if it's still possible to do rush damage!
This is a huge Liberator nerf. Will slow the AG mode down by 104 seconds
It's slow the AG mode by 79 seconds if you pre-build the tech lab (which admittedly won't always be done, people sometimes built the first few libs out of a naked starport) and it'll mean that you have 2 liberators early game instead of the 4 that you could potentially have with a reactor if you only build one starport
Don't agree with reverting the mule. Mass mule is a thing again, and that mechanic has always been dumb. Love the manual inject, it makes me want to play again!
I don't like auto mechanics. Best world would be removing all macro mechanics, or keeping them in like HOTS (albeit down-tuned).
Tentative thumbs up from me, though it really all depends on the final result...
Still nothing about the fucking adept. Lol. Does the liberator upgrade still require armory ? If not, they literally did nothing. Well, at least the auto-injects are gone... Thats a plus, I guess.
On September 18 2015 08:32 blade55555 wrote: Man I seriously had high hopes for this game when they removed macro mechanics. Now it's just... Man so sad right now
Don't even know what to say for removal, seems a lot of people at all levels want it but that it's not going to happen (multiple patches in a row moving away from it). At least if it's going south we can get the old chrono rather than the new one
On September 18 2015 08:29 Pr0wler wrote: Still nothing about the fucking adept. Lol. Does the liberator upgrade still require armory ? If not, they literally did nothing. Well, at least the auto-injects are gone... Thats a plus, I guess.
You can't reactor out Libs with Siege, it's a big early game change.
On September 18 2015 08:32 blade55555 wrote: Man I seriously had high hopes for this game when they removed macro mechanics. Now it's just... Man so sad right now
My EXACT thoughts...
Also I find it misguided as hell... They were supposed to make creep recede faster in exchange for making macro easier... Now they basically bring back HotS mechanics (BARELY easier since u can queue, but u still have to do it in the first place)... AND now creep macro is more intensive?
Doesn't that basically even out to HotS???
Yet Terran gets back the FULL version of their mechanic that has been stronger than other races, and most forgiving, with no changes????
Plus it really pisses me off that they are implementing Zerg mechanics that they straight up ADMIT a bad design... What the hell are they trying to do, intentionally kill the game, by CHOOSING bad design decisions intentionally???
I said if they go back to HotS mechanics I am quitting Zerg. I really mean it. I refuse to play a race with poorly designed mechanics that are simply not fun. I'm just going to play Terran from this point on. If this is how LotV goes in to retail, it's staying that way...
On September 18 2015 08:32 blade55555 wrote: Man I seriously had high hopes for this game when they removed macro mechanics. Now it's just... Man so sad right now
Don't even know what to say for removal, seems a lot of people at all levels want it but that it's not going to happen (multiple patches in a row moving away from it). At least if it's going south we can get the old chrono rather than the new one
Of course you won't get the old Chrono. Terran is the only race allowed to have just as much strength, without any added inconvenience, compared to HotS. Apparently every other races mechanics are intended to be worse than Terrans by design... Most benefit, least risk, least inconvenience, least attention required...
On September 18 2015 07:13 wjat wrote: Thank you Blizzard exactly what everyone wanted...
Is that sarcasm? ;<
Or did you miss the community poll where most of the people wanted to remove macro boosters completely.
Personally I am disappointed. Macro mechanics make the game too fast and having them on manual cast means that you need to play constantly to keep up your mechanics from rusting away. Since I will be filthy casual now, I won't probably play Starcraft anymore. There is simply no fun at playing the game at random level. "Oh, I won because the other guy forgot injects. Oh I lost because I forgot to drop mules etc".
On September 18 2015 08:43 ejozl wrote: So is Mule 100% power of HotS and Inject is 75% power?
Don't forget creep is even harder to spread now too!
And Chrono is nerfed...
Increased creep spread was in the patch before this if you didn't realize.
Zerg Spawn larva increased from 2 to 3 per cast. Creep now spreads and recedes faster.* Ravager New Upgrade: Increases the corrosive bile range to 13 from 9. Costs 100/100. Requires a Lair. Overlord Transport upgrade requires a Lair.
*The increased speed to receding creep didn't make it into this build and will be added in a later patch.
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
how about increasing the base larva max count? 5 instead of 3?
That could certainly help. That would be something to test.
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
it's the same for the other races. We have to hit our production circles every x seconds or we are punished severaly. Zerg doesn't get punished for missing production circles because they bank larvae and then just spawn all units at once. Injects balance this out. Just view them as the zerg production circle.
I suppose you could look at it that way, but the only common situations where you want to be banking larva are on a tech switch, which still requires the inject cycles. So most of the time you still have to have a production cycle as zerg. To say zerg doesn't get punished for missing production cycles isn't really true, our production just isn't timed out the same way.
On September 18 2015 07:07 Kyrth wrote: I hate spawn larva so much, that I don't even want to play
and I didn't want to play without it. Blizzard can't please everyone.
Fair enough. I hadn't played in 5 years anyway. This was was fun for a month though. Maybe it's for the best because it was taking up too much time. ^^
If you havent played in 5 years why the hell are you commenting in this thread!?!? That is so ignorant its not even funny. No wonder blizz is confused. It hears opinions from people who dont even play and then trys to implement ideas with no or very little actual game knowledge. Are you joking?.
On September 18 2015 07:13 wjat wrote: Thank you Blizzard exactly what everyone wanted...
Is that sarcasm? ;<
Or did you miss the community poll where most of the people wanted to remove macro boosters completely.
Personally I am disappointed. Macro mechanics make the game too fast and having them on manual cast means that you need to play constantly to keep up your mechanics from rusting away. Since I will be filthy casual now, I won't probably play Starcraft anymore. There is simply no fun at playing the game at random level. "Oh, I won because the other guy forgot injects. Oh I lost because I forgot to drop mules etc".
Zerg Spawn larva increased from 2 to 3 per cast. Creep now spreads and recedes faster.* Ravager New Upgrade: Increases the corrosive bile range to 13 from 9. Costs 100/100. Requires a Lair. Overlord Transport upgrade requires a Lair.
*The increased speed to receding creep didn't make it into this build and will be added in a later patch.
Yes, that was fine with those mechanics. But now it doesn't spread as fast , but STILL recedes faster, even though injects were converted to manual.
So they kept the nerf to creep receding, which was supposedly only done because the of not having to inject, but still kept inject?
On September 18 2015 08:43 ejozl wrote: So is Mule 100% power of HotS and Inject is 75% power?
Don't forget creep is even harder to spread now too!
And Chrono is nerfed...
Increased creep spread was in the patch before this if you didn't realize.
Zerg Spawn larva increased from 2 to 3 per cast. Creep now spreads and recedes faster.* Ravager New Upgrade: Increases the corrosive bile range to 13 from 9. Costs 100/100. Requires a Lair. Overlord Transport upgrade requires a Lair.
*The increased speed to receding creep didn't make it into this build and will be added in a later patch.
Yes, that was fine with those mechanics. But now it doesn't spread as fast , but STILL recedes faster, even though injects were converted to manual.
So they kept the nerf to creep receding, which was supposedly only done because the of not having to inject, but still kept inject?
What are you talking about STILL receding faster? It is NOW receding faster in this patch, and spread speed was increased last patch. What does injects have to do with spread creep. Last patch it spread faster, and receded at normal speed. Now it still spreads just as fast, but now recedes faster.
On September 18 2015 07:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not happy with the state of injects. The simple reality of it is that if you miss injects you're punished so severaly, and it makes the game so much less fun for zerg when you have a "press these buttons every 30 seconds or you just are screwed" mechanic. I'm not saying we have to remove it or make it auto, but I hate how punishing it is compared to the other races mechanics. Queuing isnt' really that helpful, since you need the energy on the queens to do it and you should never have energy on your queens.
it's the same for the other races. We have to hit our production circles every x seconds or we are punished severaly. Zerg doesn't get punished for missing production circles because they bank larvae and then just spawn all units at once. Injects balance this out. Just view them as the zerg production circle.
Zerg still has to produce units, and they have an extra layer of complexities when u factor in drones, which are basically their own resource, and the timings of when u can actually build drones or units. And you have to bank drones in this game as well if u wont want to lose.
I know exactly how it is to use production cycles on the other races, and it was the same way for Zerg in BW...
Any Zerg who has played both BW and SC2 knows that production cycles are FAR FAR more convenient!!
In BW Zerg only had 3 larvae per base and if you did not use them, it would be wasted time. You actually had LESS time to use them than you have between injecting larvae in SC2. It is NOT about the APM required!!
But in BW, you were REWARDED for CONSTANTLY PRODUCING. It all makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Now, it has nothing to do with keeping up your UNIT PRODUCTION, you have to keep up LARVAE production, completely separate from all unit production.
It's clunky, does not feel natural, and is unforgiving compared ot the other races.
Problem is, it is tied in to the new balance of units & macro system in SC2. You have to bank eggs and use units that are nowhere near as efficient just to survive long enough to macro harder.
I would prefer production cycles like BW WAY WAY ahead of stupid spawn larvae mehcanics...
I've been playing starcraft since the broodwar days, and SC2 since the WOL beta.
I main terran, but play all three races at about a platinum level, although I used to be diamond. To make a few really simple points without trying to make some big hoohah about design theory and other bull's crap:
1.I was really excited to play without boosters. I thought it was fun.
2.I was ok with playing with auto-boosters, but didn't think it was fun, especially protoss. Their new mechanic is too confusing to control.
3.Was disappointed to have boosters come back, but was actually surprised to see how fun zerg is with forgiving injects.
4.Based purely on fun-ness, I think protoss chrono should be reverted to the HOTS version, Terran mule should be nerfed slightly to prevent lategame mule hammer, and zerg is fine.
5.I wish more people had fun playing SC2. I think the reason why more people seemed to enjoy Brood War so much was because the game was designed to be fun, not to be an e-sport, as such a thing didn't exist yet. Would we have nukes if this game was designed to be competitive? Prolly not, too hard to balance to make them worth it.
That is all.
/opinion
edit: fixed some grammer/spelling caused by brain-fartation
On September 18 2015 08:53 JackONeill wrote: Good patch as long as macro mechs go. However :
JUST REMOVE THE PHOTON OVERCHARGE ALREADY. IT SERVES NO F***ING PURPOSE.
The main reason that Photon Overcharge exists is to add defenders advantage to pvp. They added it because WOL pvp was arguably the worst of the matchups and the hardest matchup to secure a natural in.
This is expected, there was no way the game would be remotely balanced by November release if the mechanics stayed the way they were. I think they should have tried the radical macro changes earlier in the beta so they had time to balance around them. I don't really mind though, I didn't think HotS macro mechanics were problematic like some of the big advocates of the changes.
Oh man, the tears about not having everything autocast/autodone for you... If you quit/dont play b/c something like larvae inject isn't auto-cast, that's fine, this game isn't for you... Imagine these poor kids having to play Brood War when you couldn't select more than 1 building at a time and not more than 12 units at a time! They'd have gone bezerk! POOR KIDDIES go play HELLO KITTY
Thanks Blizzard for removing auto-everything. Another step in the right direciton.
Edit: To clarify, sure remove the mechanics all together, but this will take a ton of balancing that would take months and isn't really feasible (major change too late in the beta, would have had to been done earlier on to allow for adequate testing)...
This looks great. Can't wait for LOTV multiplayer now. It's hard to lose sight of the big picture but the changes overall throughout the beta are really coming together.
On September 18 2015 07:29 floor exercise wrote: And just minutes ago I was reading an interview with Chris Sigaty gushing about how bold and courageous the design team has been with their changes
Then they heard Nov 10 release and needed to hurry the fuck up. Sad but true probably
On September 18 2015 08:53 JackONeill wrote: Good patch as long as macro mechs go. However :
JUST REMOVE THE PHOTON OVERCHARGE ALREADY. IT SERVES NO F***ING PURPOSE.
The main reason that Photon Overcharge exists is to add defenders advantage to pvp. They added it because WOL pvp was arguably the worst of the 9 matchups and the hardest matchup to secure a natural in.
Holy shit man, I've been playing and watching this game for 5 years and there are three whole match ups I've never even seen. My mind is blown right now.
On topic:
Almost this entire patch is undoing things they just did. It's a pathetic patch. There are two things that are most interesting about it though. First, no Adept rework, which I really hope is in the pipeline. Second, with the Cyclone buff if you rush out Cyclones blind in TvP the Warp Prism + Adept all-in might be holdable.
On September 18 2015 08:53 JackONeill wrote: Good patch as long as macro mechs go. However :
JUST REMOVE THE PHOTON OVERCHARGE ALREADY. IT SERVES NO F***ING PURPOSE.
The main reason that Photon Overcharge exists is to add defenders advantage to pvp. They added it because WOL pvp was arguably the worst of the 9 matchups and the hardest matchup to secure a natural in.
Holy shit man, I've been playing and watching this game for 5 years and there are three whole match ups I've never even seen. My mind is blown right now.
You are lucky. I mean ZvP is fun but PvZ is just terrible.
On September 18 2015 08:53 JackONeill wrote: Good patch as long as macro mechs go. However :
JUST REMOVE THE PHOTON OVERCHARGE ALREADY. IT SERVES NO F***ING PURPOSE.
The main reason that Photon Overcharge exists is to add defenders advantage to pvp. They added it because WOL pvp was arguably the worst of the 9 matchups and the hardest matchup to secure a natural in.
Holy shit man, I've been playing and watching this game for 5 years and there are three whole match ups I've never even seen. My mind is blown right now.
On topic:
Almost this entire patch is undoing things they just did. It's a pathetic patch. There are two things that are most interesting about it though. First, no Adept rework, which I really hope is in the pipeline. Second, with the Cyclone buff if you rush out Cyclones blind in TvP the Warp Prism + Adept all-in might be holdable.
On September 18 2015 07:07 Kyrth wrote: I hate spawn larva so much, that I don't even want to play
and I didn't want to play without it. Blizzard can't please everyone.
Fair enough. I hadn't played in 5 years anyway. This was was fun for a month though. Maybe it's for the best because it was taking up too much time. ^^
If you havent played in 5 years why the hell are you commenting in this thread!?!? That is so ignorant its not even funny. No wonder blizz is confused. It hears opinions from people who dont even play and then trys to implement ideas with no or very little actual game knowledge. Are you joking?.
Well, Mr. 7 posts, here's my reasoning. Maybe you can get over your anger to understand where I'm coming from.
I played SC1 and BW. Stopped playing to go to college and life in general. In Wings of Liberty, I was Diamond zerg. I was fairly decent, but found it not at all fun to play vs terran where mule spam made worker damage feel meaningless. But more than that racial difference, it was just hellishly annoying to get back into the game after any time off. It was 90% macro mechanics, inject inject inject, or lose. I played HOTS singleplayer only. I toyed with the multiplayer and found the core mechanics of the game were just as broken. Now LOTV beta came out, I pre purchased it when I heard they were removing the macro mechanics and have played a few hundred games.
So yes. I play the game. So I get to post here. Get over yourself.
Nice patch overall. Liberator harass was/is so dumb, at least Terrans have to invest money and time now to do so. I also really like the new injects. Auto injects are not only unfitting for the game, they also decreased the difficulty of zerg macro by what feels like 90%, which is way to much in comparison to the other races. IMO injects were always fun and a fun skill to master and injecting in the middle of a fight over microing also added some kind of decision. The new method seems perfect, as long as it doesn't get out of hands with like 3 queens per hatchery. But since this wasn't necessary in Hots, why should it be necessary now. Good injects will be valuable again, but even if you suck at injecting you'll be able to spend your money usefully, just like 30 seconds later, falling rightfully behind, especialy in ZvZ. Now just give us the old chrono boost back and the game will be hella fun again I also think 10 starting workers would be fine/better too, but I guess it's already too late for them to change that, but whatever. Disruptors still fill useless/gimmicky tho. 1 hit in per fight that is easily dodgeable and weird controlling (you manually have to select the "shot" to move it) just feels way to weak to be a solid AoE alternative (if that's what it's supposed to be, idk..). Just some good balancing now and the faith for an awesome game is slowly coming back.
On September 18 2015 09:46 NKexquisite wrote: Oh man, the tears about not having everything autocast/autodone for you... If you quit/dont play b/c something like larvae inject isn't auto-cast, that's fine, this game isn't for you... Imagine these poor kids having to play Brood War when you couldn't select more than 1 building at a time and not more than 12 units at a time! They'd have gone bezerk! POOR KIDDIES go play HELLO KITTY
Thanks Blizzard for removing auto-everything. Another step in the right direciton.
Edit: To clarify, sure remove the mechanics all together, but this will take a ton of balancing that would take months and isn't really feasible (major change too late in the beta, would have had to been done earlier on to allow for adequate testing)...
I played SC1 and BW since the day they were released.
Not selecting more than 12 units was fine, limitation of those days that was a normal thing. And SC1 did NOT require injects. They didn't have to try to make things difficult, actually Blizzard was known for making games easily accessible but deep. Which is definitely not the design of SC2...
I don't want everything auto, I don't mind things taking more APM even. I just don't want to spend my time using a poorly designed mechanic that does not feel natural nor fun. It's the one thing I hated about how Zerg felt since WoL beta. So I'm switching races.
Even Blizzard stated that the manual inject mechanic well designed in the last community update... The fact that they would consider that is just plain retarded.
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
People ALWAYS whine, they think they can do better, they have "ALL THESE BRILLIANT IDEAS THAT THEY THINK CAN WORK" and it's fking irritating. God there's no pleasing them, people will ALWAYS WHINE. That will never change. Seriously, if y'all think you're so smart and David Kim is so dumb and useless, why don't y'all try designing a fking game, quit bitching.... try first and then see whether you have the right to bitch like this. You don't know how hard it is to develop a game with the complexity of Starcraft, what gives you the right to judge? You think their ideas suck? Well I'll be damned if you guys can even develop something as close as decent as Starcraft, seriously, so stop attacking Blizzard or David Kim.
does that mean that if i inject a base twice with the same queen one after the other, that i will receive 2 sets of larva after the duration of the spell?
or will a 2nd inject start after the 1st inject is finished spawning larva?
if its the latter, im not sure what the purpose of this change is. if its the former im a happy camper.
It's impossible to please everyone. When you have one half ultra conservative not budging on HOTS mechanics, the other half loves the auto inject... what you get is a half compromise and some slight change. Same story always.
I actually like the change since I got my 4th larvae back, I'm happy with the patch. I think it is the best compromise they could reach given the wide diversity of strong opinion on the topic.
Now it's time to move forward and really solve the other problems. Infestor, swarm host, late game compositions - for Zerg this is where to start.
On September 18 2015 10:39 BluemoonSC wrote: so.. you can queue larva
does that mean that if i inject a base twice with the same queen one after the other, that i will receive 2 sets of larva after the duration of the spell?
or will a 2nd inject start after the 1st inject is finished spawning larva?
if its the latter, im not sure what the purpose of this change is. if its the former im a happy camper.
2'nd inject starts when the first one ends
If your injects have not been perfect or you have multiple queens, you can queue a second inject as you run in to start a fight instead of having no choice but to inject during or after the fight
i think at least for me when it comes to the larva inject is that it feels useless to have it if the larva doesn't stack.
like whats the point of queueing a larva inject if i need 50 energy to do it but im using my larva injects when they come off cd. so lets say i want to micro and not worry about spawn larva. i have to MISS a complete larva cycle in order for me to take advantage of the mechanic so that i can be on the map engaging my enemy for an extended period of time during a parade push. OR i have to invest extra money into queens that will need energy for creep spread and transfusing.. and it still takes time before i see any (marginal) benefit whatsoever.
so basically, i have to do something NEGATIVE to my gameplay in order to receive any questionably beneficial effects from the new spawn larva.
if blizzard's goal was to remove pointless mechanics, i just don't understand the decision to do it this way. i understood the auto inject and the decision to cut back on larva..but this is just mind boggling to me.
"We've implemented some cool changes for you to try out and think about and then reverted it all back to Hots. Tell us what you think!"
Yeah...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the energy regeneration from a Queen is barely enough to keep up the production of inject. So as long as I dont overproduce Queens on the scale of 1/2 bases, it actually doesnt make inject micro any less punishing.
I still dont get the problem with the auto-cast aside from "auto-cast is evil". But I dont get why they reverted Mule either and didnt just make it static and give it a respawn timer.
On September 18 2015 11:04 The_Red_Viper wrote: bluemoon i think the idea is to build more queens per hatchery if you want an easier time with injects
if that was blizz's goal, this mechanic makes it so that you're only putting yourself at a disadvantage if you're spending your money on queens at the point in the game where this would matter.
they wanted to change the gameplay and remove pointless clicks while encouraging more micro. maybe i'm just disappointed, but i don't see how this change aligns with the design goals they've been stressing throughout the beta, nor do i see how this would make zerg macro 'easier' or 'better' for anyone just starting out in the game.
IMO, put a 10s CD on inject and let them stack. reward players for good macro, allow new players (and even veterans) to learn to use the mechanic in a timely fashion without severely hindering their macro because they were doing the RIGHT thing on the map and spending their money the RIGHT way.
and if their goal was to make it more equitable to the other mechanics, i just don't see it. its pretend macro, just like autocast.
On September 18 2015 11:11 Blackfeather wrote: "We've implemented some cool changes for you to try out and think about and then reverted it all back to Hots. Tell us what you think!"
Yeah...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the energy regeneration from a Queen is barely enough to keep up the production of inject. So as long as I dont overproduce Queens on the scale of 1/2 bases, it actually doesnt take any inject-micro away at all.
right. this change does NOTHING for zerg macro that aligns with the design goals.
On September 18 2015 11:04 The_Red_Viper wrote: bluemoon i think the idea is to build more queens per hatchery if you want an easier time with injects
if that was blizz's goal, this mechanic makes it so that you're only putting yourself at a disadvantage if you're spending your money on queens at the point in the game where this would matter.
they wanted to change the gameplay and remove pointless clicks while encouraging more micro. maybe i'm just disappointed, but i don't see how this change aligns with the design goals they've been stressing throughout the beta, nor do i see how this would make zerg macro 'easier' or 'better' for anyone just starting out in the game.
IMO, put a 10s CD on inject and let them stack. reward players for good macro, allow new players (and even veterans) to learn to use the mechanic in a timely fashion without severely hindering their macro because they were doing the RIGHT thing on the map and spending their money the RIGHT way.
and if their goal was to make it more equitable to the other mechanics, i just don't see it. its pretend macro, just like autocast.
On September 18 2015 11:11 Blackfeather wrote: "We've implemented some cool changes for you to try out and think about and then reverted it all back to Hots. Tell us what you think!"
Yeah...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the energy regeneration from a Queen is barely enough to keep up the production of inject. So as long as I dont overproduce Queens on the scale of 1/2 bases, it actually doesnt take any inject-micro away at all.
This change does NOTHING for zerg macro that aligns with the design goals.
How ignorant can you be? It frees up APM during critical situations, it allows you to inject at any time - not just exactly when the larvae inject pops off, or some time after it's popped. So - if you have a 32 energy queen and the inject is half done, you can immediately use the inject and you will not have to recheck on exactly when it pops off - recheck at a time you may be engaged in a fight. Etc. It helps alot.
So if you have a 32 energy queen and the inject is half done
With 90% inject uptime, your queen will be at 0 energy (and ~11 energy when the inject is half done) so it doesn't affect the top level of play at least in the early-midgame
So if you have a 32 energy queen and the inject is half done
With 90% inject uptime, your queen will be at 0 energy (and ~11 energy when the inject is half done) so it doesn't affect the top level of play at least in the early-midgame
Which is good, in the early game you've got your 4 larvae back but it requires you to macro normally, but moving to mid and late game you can swap in a high energy creep queen, queue up a few larva injects then move out for aggression and focus on micro. I think that's not too bad.
So if you have a 32 energy queen and the inject is half done
With 90% inject uptime, your queen will be at 0 energy (and ~11 energy when the inject is half done) so it doesn't affect the top level of play at least in the early-midgame
The whole point is to make it easier throughout the entire game, and easier for all skill levels.
On September 18 2015 11:04 The_Red_Viper wrote: bluemoon i think the idea is to build more queens per hatchery if you want an easier time with injects
if that was blizz's goal, this mechanic makes it so that you're only putting yourself at a disadvantage if you're spending your money on queens at the point in the game where this would matter.
they wanted to change the gameplay and remove pointless clicks while encouraging more micro. maybe i'm just disappointed, but i don't see how this change aligns with the design goals they've been stressing throughout the beta, nor do i see how this would make zerg macro 'easier' or 'better' for anyone just starting out in the game.
IMO, put a 10s CD on inject and let them stack. reward players for good macro, allow new players (and even veterans) to learn to use the mechanic in a timely fashion without severely hindering their macro because they were doing the RIGHT thing on the map and spending their money the RIGHT way.
and if their goal was to make it more equitable to the other mechanics, i just don't see it. its pretend macro, just like autocast.
On September 18 2015 11:11 Blackfeather wrote: "We've implemented some cool changes for you to try out and think about and then reverted it all back to Hots. Tell us what you think!"
Yeah...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the energy regeneration from a Queen is barely enough to keep up the production of inject. So as long as I dont overproduce Queens on the scale of 1/2 bases, it actually doesnt take any inject-micro away at all.
This change does NOTHING for zerg macro that aligns with the design goals.
How ignorant can you be? It frees up APM during critical situations, it allows you to inject at any time - not just exactly when the larvae inject pops off, or some time after it's popped. So - if you have a 32 energy queen and the inject is half done, you can immediately use the inject and you will not have to recheck on exactly when it pops off - recheck at a time you may be engaged in a fight. Etc. It helps alot.
Ignorant and whiny are not two words I would use to describe my post.
Anyway, the point of my post, which you missed, is that their goals for the design of macro mechanics do not match the thought process I can see behind this change. They were to specifically looking to..
Eliminate unnecessary clicks. The change reverts us back to square one.
Make the game easier for newbies. Sure. After a certain point you can check your hatcheries and maintain 100% uptime with no tempo, but to do this you have to do things that are harmful to your macro.
The change doesn't affect the top percentage of players yet they're still required to multitask the same amount pre-patch while aggressively expanding and watch their fragile army, spread creep and overlords, etc. Which, as DK has mentioned, were the players complaining it was difficult to do everything they needed to do to win a game at the new lotv pace.
I understand it helps players, but I just don't think it is in tune with the direction blizz said they were heading nor does it provide newbies with proper assistance to deal with banked energy.
I'm back to playing SC2. This is the change that I've been bitching about for 4 years.
They already made it spread and recede faster so now i guess it's 3x as fast receeding as HOTS
needed though, it spreads insanely fast (you get quite a lot more out of every tumor if you spread it on cooldown and people also drop more tumors) and sometimes you clear half a map of creep and it's still kinda there for quite a while
I'm back to playing SC2. This is the change that I've been bitching about for 4 years.
They already made it spread and recede faster so now i guess it's 3x as fast receeding as HOTS
needed though, it spreads insanely fast (you get quite a lot more out of every tumor if you spread it on cooldown and people also drop more tumors) and sometimes you clear half a map of creep and it's still kinda there for quite a while
The frustration was clearing the creep, and then zerg being able to put down a tumour as soon as they chase your army off of creep.
I'm back to playing SC2. This is the change that I've been bitching about for 4 years.
They already made it spread and recede faster so now i guess it's 3x as fast receeding as HOTS
needed though, it spreads insanely fast (you get quite a lot more out of every tumor if you spread it on cooldown and people also drop more tumors) and sometimes you clear half a map of creep and it's still kinda there for quite a while
The last receding change did not make it into the last patch, only this one.
It's sad, really. I could see that glimmer of hope in people's eyes with the macro-patch. Everyone praising Kim. Praising the transparency and the bold decisions. I was almost sucked into the vortex of propaganda myself, too. But then I remembered who I was dealing with. And I thought: "these people are going to be burned; they forget that this is the one and only, David Kim. The master of false-hope and Starcraft seppuku."
Really people . . . we've had 5 years. We've had Broodlord-Infestor. We've had Mothership Core. We've had Swarm Hosts. We've had decisions that the vast majority of the community disagree with. We've had a declining viewership and player-base. And in response to the communities feedback? At best, we've had years of waiting for results. At worst, we've had crickets.
So to make it even more short and sweet: we've had this happen before. And now it's happening again. Surprise!
Never forget and never underestimate the laziness and egomania of the one and only David Kim. To paraphrase Greg "Idra" Fields:
I'm back to playing SC2. This is the change that I've been bitching about for 4 years.
They already made it spread and recede faster so now i guess it's 3x as fast receeding as HOTS
needed though, it spreads insanely fast (you get quite a lot more out of every tumor if you spread it on cooldown and people also drop more tumors) and sometimes you clear half a map of creep and it's still kinda there for quite a while
The last receding change did not make it into the last patch, only this one.
Oh really, why? No wonder you clear half the map of creep and walk to his base and back and it's all still there
On September 18 2015 12:54 Strelok wrote: "We want to make almost new game with many changes" "Oops, they don't work, let's go back to old stuff with several new units"
There wasn't even a patch to adjust or change anything. They just changed it then reverted next patch.
I'm back to playing SC2. This is the change that I've been bitching about for 4 years.
They already made it spread and recede faster so now i guess it's 3x as fast receeding as HOTS
needed though, it spreads insanely fast (you get quite a lot more out of every tumor if you spread it on cooldown and people also drop more tumors) and sometimes you clear half a map of creep and it's still kinda there for quite a while
The last receding change did not make it into the last patch, only this one.
Oh really, why? No wonder you clear half the map of creep and walk to his base and back and it's all still there
Only 30% of people for the revert... The "test for auto or no-boosters" lasted what, 1-2 weeks before they were convinced they would revert back. I'm sure it was a real close decision, 50-50% like you said
Just change everything back to HOTS levels already, and if you do that give me a refund, cause I'm not just paying for new units. New chromo is shit, and so is the inject stacking.
And the mules... fucking unbelievable... I don't think I've ever read anyone's post that defends late game muling shit.
The game was really fun for the last 2 weeks, I played a lot more. I don't feel excited at all to play right now.
"Community BREAKING NEWS on this day Nov 9th 2015, we know how much you LOVE hots and are looking forward to LOTV! Turns out... we're not planning on giving any reasons... but we just reverted the entire game to HOTS! GREAT news the economy with be the HOTS ECONOMY! YAY! We fucked around with some units, and that... well that wraps it up. Goodbye forever.... (signed: dev team)."
*I'm callin it now.
Ps. fuck esports when it dictates how a game is designed... I would have much rather had a fun game than an esport.
On September 18 2015 11:52 BluemoonSC wrote: Eliminate unnecessary clicks. The change reverts us back to square one.
Now Zerg does not have to check and recheck the inject timing. That saves clicks. Now Zerg can spam multiple injects or do preemptive injects which saves them from returning to base at later times. That saves clicks. Super high APM during micro intensive situations is not a requirement, it saves clicks in those windows.
On September 18 2015 11:52 BluemoonSC wrote: Make the game easier for newbies. Sure. After a certain point you can check your hatcheries and maintain 100% uptime with no tempo, but to do this you have to do things that are harmful to your macro.
Players always end up with excess queen energy. Usually they use that energy on creep tumors for the hell of it. Now they can use it on a preemptive inject. Macro is not harmed. Even at the highest level, queen energy pools. I don't see why we are forced to think only in terms of the highest level either, since none of us here are at that level, and the few people who are there can speak for themselves if they care to. Every foreigner I have ever seen ends up with some excess queen energy. It may happen later in the game for you, but it will definitely happen.
On September 18 2015 11:52 BluemoonSC wrote: The change doesn't affect the top percentage of players yet they're still required to multitask the same amount pre-patch while aggressively expanding and watch their fragile army, spread creep and overlords, etc. Which, as DK has mentioned, were the players complaining it was difficult to do everything they needed to do to win a game at the new lotv pace.
It does effect top level players, and the korean pros were not complaining about the new LOTV pace. Koreans already play full map macro games, there's nothing new about that for pro players. The korean pros were complaining about the punishing Zerg inject mechanic, which has now become alot more forgiving. The whole pacing of the inject has been changed. You can now inject on an adaptive schedule, and this is going to help pro players who fall even slightly behind in energy.
On September 18 2015 11:52 BluemoonSC wrote: I understand it helps players, but I just don't think it is in tune with the direction blizz said they were heading nor does it provide newbies with proper assistance to deal with banked energy.
If your only point is that it doesn't eliminate clicks, well it does. If your point is that it does not help pros, well it does. Anything else?
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
It's almost as if people have different opinions and we're not all just one huge hivemind who likes the same thing..
I personally only liked 2 options, old HotS model or no macro mechanics at all. These in-between versions doesn't suit me one bit, but I have to admit, this patch is probably the one I like most if it has to be somewhere in between..
Only 30% of people for the revert... The "test for auto or no-boosters" lasted what, 1-2 weeks before they were convinced they would revert back. I'm sure it was a real close decision, 50-50% like you said
Just change everything back to HOTS levels already, and if you do that give me a refund, cause I'm not just paying for new units. New chromo is shit, and so is the inject stacking.
And the mules... fucking unbelievable... I don't think I've ever read anyone's post that defends late game muling shit.
The game was really fun for the last 2 weeks, I played a lot more. I don't feel excited at all to play right now.
"Community BREAKING NEWS on this day Nov 9th 2015, we know how much you LOVE hots and are looking forward to LOTV! Turns out... we're not planning on giving any reasons... but we just reverted the entire game to HOTS! GREAT news the economy with be the HOTS ECONOMY! YAY! We fucked around with some units, and that... well that wraps it up. Goodbye forever.... (signed: dev team)."
*I'm callin it now.
Ps. fuck esports when it dictates how a game is designed... I would have much rather had a fun game than an esport.
Stop crying, even without mm removal the difference from hots to lotv is bigger then from wol to hots. Why should you change everything when the game is already extremely good?
Only 30% of people for the revert... The "test for auto or no-boosters" lasted what, 1-2 weeks before they were convinced they would revert back. I'm sure it was a real close decision, 50-50% like you said
Just change everything back to HOTS levels already, and if you do that give me a refund, cause I'm not just paying for new units. New chromo is shit, and so is the inject stacking.
And the mules... fucking unbelievable... I don't think I've ever read anyone's post that defends late game muling shit.
The game was really fun for the last 2 weeks, I played a lot more. I don't feel excited at all to play right now.
"Community BREAKING NEWS on this day Nov 9th 2015, we know how much you LOVE hots and are looking forward to LOTV! Turns out... we're not planning on giving any reasons... but we just reverted the entire game to HOTS! GREAT news the economy with be the HOTS ECONOMY! YAY! We fucked around with some units, and that... well that wraps it up. Goodbye forever.... (signed: dev team)."
*I'm callin it now.
Ps. fuck esports when it dictates how a game is designed... I would have much rather had a fun game than an esport.
Stop crying, even without mm removal the difference from hots to lotv is bigger then from wol to hots. Why should you change everything when the game is already extremely good?
Because there are fundamental problems that we've been told time and time again for the last 5 years would -ONLY- be changed in an expansion beta.
THAT is the problem mindset.
If they had a 2-3 months of the year off-season where they did serious design adjustments (instead of just balance tweaks) it wouldn't be a big issue but it's very likely they'll lock in a design and refuse to change it ever again.
Only 30% of people for the revert... The "test for auto or no-boosters" lasted what, 1-2 weeks before they were convinced they would revert back. I'm sure it was a real close decision, 50-50% like you said
Just change everything back to HOTS levels already, and if you do that give me a refund, cause I'm not just paying for new units. New chromo is shit, and so is the inject stacking.
And the mules... fucking unbelievable... I don't think I've ever read anyone's post that defends late game muling shit.
The game was really fun for the last 2 weeks, I played a lot more. I don't feel excited at all to play right now.
"Community BREAKING NEWS on this day Nov 9th 2015, we know how much you LOVE hots and are looking forward to LOTV! Turns out... we're not planning on giving any reasons... but we just reverted the entire game to HOTS! GREAT news the economy with be the HOTS ECONOMY! YAY! We fucked around with some units, and that... well that wraps it up. Goodbye forever.... (signed: dev team)."
*I'm callin it now.
Ps. fuck esports when it dictates how a game is designed... I would have much rather had a fun game than an esport.
Stop crying, even without mm removal the difference from hots to lotv is bigger then from wol to hots. Why should you change everything when the game is already extremely good?
because the game is not already extremely good ldo
Only 30% of people for the revert... The "test for auto or no-boosters" lasted what, 1-2 weeks before they were convinced they would revert back. I'm sure it was a real close decision, 50-50% like you said
Just change everything back to HOTS levels already, and if you do that give me a refund, cause I'm not just paying for new units. New chromo is shit, and so is the inject stacking.
And the mules... fucking unbelievable... I don't think I've ever read anyone's post that defends late game muling shit.
The game was really fun for the last 2 weeks, I played a lot more. I don't feel excited at all to play right now.
"Community BREAKING NEWS on this day Nov 9th 2015, we know how much you LOVE hots and are looking forward to LOTV! Turns out... we're not planning on giving any reasons... but we just reverted the entire game to HOTS! GREAT news the economy with be the HOTS ECONOMY! YAY! We fucked around with some units, and that... well that wraps it up. Goodbye forever.... (signed: dev team)."
*I'm callin it now.
Ps. fuck esports when it dictates how a game is designed... I would have much rather had a fun game than an esport.
Stop crying, even without mm removal the difference from hots to lotv is bigger then from wol to hots. Why should you change everything when the game is already extremely good?
The more they change the more worried I am. Nearly every single unit added in HOTS received changes after release, some of those drastic nerfs. They went so far as to remove one of the units from the game far after release. Most of the changes introduced in LotV don't seem to stand up, or if they work are awkward. The beta is in a mess and they only have until November 10th to get it in shape.
I doubt it's enough time for the team that took forever to deal with BL/Infestor, MC+Blink, and SH. They seem to know that too and are reverting change after change. What LotV will look like a few months after the top Korean teams have figured it out isn't certain, but it doesn't seem likely it'll be a pretty sight.
But who knows, maybe they'll buff that DT speed to 3.375 and put the Warhound back in and everything will be perfect?
On September 18 2015 12:26 SCST wrote: It's sad, really. I could see that glimmer of hope in people's eyes with the macro-patch. Everyone praising Kim. Praising the transparency and the bold decisions. I was almost sucked into the vortex of propaganda myself, too. But then I remembered who I was dealing with. And I thought: "these people are going to be burned; they forget that this is the one and only, David Kim. The master of false-hope and Starcraft seppuku."
Really people . . . we've had 5 years. We've had Broodlord-Infestor. We've had Mothership Core. We've had Swarm Hosts. We've had decisions that the vast majority of the community disagree with. We've had a declining viewership and player-base. And in response to the communities feedback? At best, we've had years of waiting for results. At worst, we've had crickets.
So to make it even more short and sweet: we've had this happen before. And now it's happening again. Surprise!
Never forget and never underestimate the laziness and egomania of the one and only David Kim. To paraphrase Greg "Idra" Fields:
"Something something tire iron . . . "
The melodrama is amusing, but unnecessary. I believe they've stated clearly that this week is part of their decision making, after which they will decide which manner of macro mechanics they will run with. I can understand the frustration, but it's preemptive and I think you should wait another week before cutting onions.
On September 18 2015 12:26 SCST wrote: It's sad, really. I could see that glimmer of hope in people's eyes with the macro-patch. Everyone praising Kim. Praising the transparency and the bold decisions. I was almost sucked into the vortex of propaganda myself, too. But then I remembered who I was dealing with. And I thought: "these people are going to be burned; they forget that this is the one and only, David Kim. The master of false-hope and Starcraft seppuku."
Really people . . . we've had 5 years. We've had Broodlord-Infestor. We've had Mothership Core. We've had Swarm Hosts. We've had decisions that the vast majority of the community disagree with. We've had a declining viewership and player-base. And in response to the communities feedback? At best, we've had years of waiting for results. At worst, we've had crickets.
So to make it even more short and sweet: we've had this happen before. And now it's happening again. Surprise!
Never forget and never underestimate the laziness and egomania of the one and only David Kim. To paraphrase Greg "Idra" Fields:
"Something something tire iron . . . "
The melodrama is amusing, but unnecessary. I believe they've stated clearly that this week is part of their decision making, after which they will decide which manner of macro mechanics they will run with. I can understand the frustration, but it's preemptive and I think you should wait another week before cutting onions.
Can you quote where and how they say that? It was not mentioned in these patch notes
I love the macro changes (maybe still nerf mule a bit) but chrono and inject are pretty cool. Also, about time the liberator got nerfed! It was really boring to have to open up roaches every game just in case you needed ravagers to deal with liberator raids.
On September 18 2015 12:26 SCST wrote: It's sad, really. I could see that glimmer of hope in people's eyes with the macro-patch. Everyone praising Kim. Praising the transparency and the bold decisions. I was almost sucked into the vortex of propaganda myself, too. But then I remembered who I was dealing with. And I thought: "these people are going to be burned; they forget that this is the one and only, David Kim. The master of false-hope and Starcraft seppuku."
Really people . . . we've had 5 years. We've had Broodlord-Infestor. We've had Mothership Core. We've had Swarm Hosts. We've had decisions that the vast majority of the community disagree with. We've had a declining viewership and player-base. And in response to the communities feedback? At best, we've had years of waiting for results. At worst, we've had crickets.
So to make it even more short and sweet: we've had this happen before. And now it's happening again. Surprise!
Never forget and never underestimate the laziness and egomania of the one and only David Kim. To paraphrase Greg "Idra" Fields:
"Something something tire iron . . . "
The melodrama is amusing, but unnecessary. I believe they've stated clearly that this week is part of their decision making, after which they will decide which manner of macro mechanics they will run with. I can understand the frustration, but it's preemptive and I think you should wait another week before cutting onions.
I'd be very surprised if they went back again, considering the limited time-frame until launch. I will gladly concede premature melodrama if there is a reversion next week. But at this point I am be willing to bet heavily that the status quo will continue and that LotV will end up a HotS clone. Because cloning HotS is really the easiest path for the development team, and 5 years of David Kim tells us that he will always take the easiest and laziest path possible - in other words: the path of the Dark Side.
Wohooo as terran, i love the patch. Queens with a surplus of energy can now queue injects ? Thats the best idea ever. If you forget inject you are still punished but you have a chance for comeback. Or is it shift-click any queen ? Dis gonna be gud.
You're focusing on Terran, and I'd like to see some more adjustments to Terran but Protoss and Zerg have had some big changes. I want them to fix the MULE issue somehow. If they put a range on orbitals like they had last patch, I'd be happy with the mechanics. The only thing that amazes me is how long they've taken to test all of this and arrive at the solution. It takes them so long it's actually pretty sad, it's like they can't make a decision using common sense and go from there. The current Zerg mechanics are great though, I wouldn't change them from here on. Zerg needs the flexibility of 4 larvae to open correctly on a variety of maps, and midgame pressure is not overly taxing on Zerg ( just played a game vs. a bio push with these mechanics and production was fine despite constant attention to micro.).
I like that they are trying many different things, the stacking thing feels like it keeps things the same early game(still as hard for new players) but is a big buff to zerg mid-late game. I would prefer doing it in a way where skilled players can put themselves apart through skill but lesser skilled players still feel like they can have time over for micro. Like an option for auto inject but at increased energy cost sounds like a great idea to me, it gives options to less skilled players and makes it easier and likely more fun to play while keeping a high skill ceiling.
The best option would obviously be to rebalance all the macro mechanics from scratch, to rebalance could be fine tuned after release as well so there's no excuse to not do this. Having injects on auto is great the problem is the other races macro mechanics. To be frank I have no idea what they could do to balance those out.
On September 18 2015 15:42 crazedrat wrote: You're focusing on Terran, and I'd like to see some more adjustments to Terran but Protoss and Zerg have had some big changes. I want them to fix the MULE issue somehow. If they put a range on orbitals like they had last patch, I'd be happy with the mechanics. The only thing that amazes me is how long they've taken to test all of this and arrive at the solution. It takes them so long it's actually pretty sad, it's like they can't make a decision using common sense and go from there. The current Zerg mechanics are great though, I wouldn't change them from here on.
I want them to fix the MULE issue somehow. If they put a range on orbitals like they had last patch, I'd be happy with the mechanics
Doesn't work very well if they can just bank energy, land within 30 range and then mule 4 times and lift off again. The previous implementation had a cooldown with no banking ability so you had to have every CC within range of the minerals and landed every minute or so
On September 18 2015 12:26 SCST wrote: It's sad, really. I could see that glimmer of hope in people's eyes with the macro-patch. Everyone praising Kim. Praising the transparency and the bold decisions. I was almost sucked into the vortex of propaganda myself, too. But then I remembered who I was dealing with. And I thought: "these people are going to be burned; they forget that this is the one and only, David Kim. The master of false-hope and Starcraft seppuku."
Really people . . . we've had 5 years. We've had Broodlord-Infestor. We've had Mothership Core. We've had Swarm Hosts. We've had decisions that the vast majority of the community disagree with. We've had a declining viewership and player-base. And in response to the communities feedback? At best, we've had years of waiting for results. At worst, we've had crickets.
So to make it even more short and sweet: we've had this happen before. And now it's happening again. Surprise!
Never forget and never underestimate the laziness and egomania of the one and only David Kim. To paraphrase Greg "Idra" Fields:
"Something something tire iron . . . "
The melodrama is amusing, but unnecessary. I believe they've stated clearly that this week is part of their decision making, after which they will decide which manner of macro mechanics they will run with. I can understand the frustration, but it's preemptive and I think you should wait another week before cutting onions.
Can you quote where and how they say that? It was not mentioned in these patch notes
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
On September 18 2015 15:42 crazedrat wrote: You're focusing on Terran, and I'd like to see some more adjustments to Terran but Protoss and Zerg have had some big changes. I want them to fix the MULE issue somehow. If they put a range on orbitals like they had last patch, I'd be happy with the mechanics. The only thing that amazes me is how long they've taken to test all of this and arrive at the solution. It takes them so long it's actually pretty sad, it's like they can't make a decision using common sense and go from there. The current Zerg mechanics are great though, I wouldn't change them from here on.
I want them to fix the MULE issue somehow. If they put a range on orbitals like they had last patch, I'd be happy with the mechanics
Doesn't work very well if they can just bank energy, land within 30 range and then mule 4 times and lift off again. The previous implementation had a cooldown with no banking ability so you had to have every CC within range of the minerals and landed every minute or so
Good point. I liked the previous iteration for Terran. The only problem was the lack of tension between scan and calldown supply and MULE. If they had those all on the same cooldown it would work for me and resolve the problem you're talking about.
On September 18 2015 12:26 SCST wrote: It's sad, really. I could see that glimmer of hope in people's eyes with the macro-patch. Everyone praising Kim. Praising the transparency and the bold decisions. I was almost sucked into the vortex of propaganda myself, too. But then I remembered who I was dealing with. And I thought: "these people are going to be burned; they forget that this is the one and only, David Kim. The master of false-hope and Starcraft seppuku."
Really people . . . we've had 5 years. We've had Broodlord-Infestor. We've had Mothership Core. We've had Swarm Hosts. We've had decisions that the vast majority of the community disagree with. We've had a declining viewership and player-base. And in response to the communities feedback? At best, we've had years of waiting for results. At worst, we've had crickets.
So to make it even more short and sweet: we've had this happen before. And now it's happening again. Surprise!
Never forget and never underestimate the laziness and egomania of the one and only David Kim. To paraphrase Greg "Idra" Fields:
"Something something tire iron . . . "
The melodrama is amusing, but unnecessary. I believe they've stated clearly that this week is part of their decision making, after which they will decide which manner of macro mechanics they will run with. I can understand the frustration, but it's preemptive and I think you should wait another week before cutting onions.
Can you quote where and how they say that? It was not mentioned in these patch notes
This really gives a good example of how we iterate and explore various things internally and it’s cool having everyone be a part of this.Please try to focus your feedback on which version is best for the game, and let us know so that we can make a good decision.
If that was their plan then at least a few lines asking for feedback on macro mechanics in the current patch notes would have helped stuff a lot.. It seems like they don't want to do anything but revert
On September 18 2015 15:35 shin_toss wrote: You meant path of the Real SC2 "Multitasking" and not some easy auto cast macro boosters right
I meant the path of SC2 actually being viable in the mainstream and not being relegated to the dustbin of the gaming world.
I know it's hard to be objective rather than selfish when forming an opinion about something, but I recommend that you try hard to understand that what's best for you in the short-term isn't necessarily what's best for Starcraftor you in the long-term. Don't you want big tournaments? Big viewership? More investment in the game? Or do you only care about what "you" like at this exact moment? Could you live with less macro in exchange for these things?
And yes, going mainstream can be done while maintaining the strategic and tactical depth that we've come to know with SC2. It's surely possible to have a fun game with depth. The onus is on the development team to stop being lazy and actually do something, rather than wait it out and clone HotS.
On September 18 2015 07:46 -NegativeZero- wrote: yep just as predicted, regardless of what blizz does with the macro mechanics, the majority of the responses will always be bitching and complaining.
I couldn't agree more!
There are always people like and dislike the changes. It's just that we usually whine louder than applaud, so negative feedback stand out.
I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible
I donno, I feel after they removed the macro boosters, even people that didnt like the idea to begin with changed their minds after playing and have a gut feeling that was the better route. Thinking they reverted because they dont have the time to balance it or were scared to commit because of the time?
The multiple inject thing, imo, is incredibly stupid and I dont think will stick. Use up your transfuse energy doing that, It just feels like an attempted band-aid fix.
While there wasnt even an attempt at a band-aid for the mules is rather disappointing. I'd like to see the mule hammer end. I wish they walked a middle line between these macro boosters. keep the mule but keep them from stacking, so at any point you could only drop 1 per CC or so you can only drop them within a certain range.. That way supply drops are still used and scans are more strategic.
Honestly, at this point I just feel frustrated. I want to go hibernate for the winter and hope when I wake its all perfect...
Ive been waiting for a good RTS since SC/BW, its was so much fun.. good battle net(chat rooms lol), nice and fun unit design, good custom/arcade mode... Sc2 wasn't fun, i played and become master zerg but it wasn't fun and i stop playing since 2 years, with lotv and no macro mechanics i have new hope for a good rts.. but blizzard disappointed me.. its the same with diablo2 and 3.. diablo 3 is ok but diablo 2 was amazing.. hate it.
wc3 was awesome. sc2 isnt bad ... biggest problem with sc2 is the community. Wc3 had a much more active and casual community with active map making, clans, interaction. People actually played teams competitively. Sc2 was a failed launch and it's never recovered from that. Blizzard got too into the broodwar mentality, almost becoming delusional thinking every mainstream person was going to devote their lives to becoming a hardcore gamer with no reward and very little incentive. Too much intensity at launch and for a year after drove away people. Whoever chose not to include chat channels in the launch needed to be fired immediately, ultimately it is Dustin Browders responsibility. They should have fired him and put someone else in there.
the only two real changes (mule and overlord drop) just revert past changes, and photon overcharge just nerfs something obviously OP that nobody prefers over the hots version and that will prolly be reverted in the next patch again
id say im disappointed only that after the last patch disaster i didnt expect more
edit: overlooked the spawn larvae change. meh. i guess they are trying to find a mediocre compromise between old but stupid (MM) and new but impossible to balance for them (no MM)
On September 18 2015 16:03 Nerchio wrote: I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible
You seem to not understand how important the mule is for terran to keep up economy wise with the other two races. The last 3 patches showed it: first patch - mule removed - terran was unplayable - up to 30% or even less income compared to the other races, not to mention, you lose workers, you're dead (that was true for protoss too at that point) second patch - the auto mules - terran economy was okayish, still, late game income was not so ok third(current patch) - back to HotS stuff, nothing to comment on it
On September 18 2015 16:03 Nerchio wrote: I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible
You seem to not understand how important the mule is for terran to keep up economy wise with the other two races. The last 3 patches showed it: first patch - mule removed - terran was unplayable - up to 30% or even less income compared to the other races, not to mention, you lose workers, you're dead (that was true for protoss too at that point) second patch - the auto mules - terran economy was okayish, still, late game income was not so ok third(current patch) - back to HotS stuff, nothing to comment on it
I understand that but they should work around it and not revert it back to Heart of the swarm, if they keep things like they are now the game will not last more than 2 years after release.
Great changes to protoss, nerfing Photon overcharge to 11 seconds is good. Technically you can still do your silly pylon rush but it isn't as scary anymore. Which is nice.
Liberator change also good and the Zerg changes are perfect too.
On September 18 2015 16:03 Nerchio wrote: I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible
You seem to not understand how important the mule is for terran to keep up economy wise with the other two races. The last 3 patches showed it: first patch - mule removed - terran was unplayable - up to 30% or even less income compared to the other races, not to mention, you lose workers, you're dead (that was true for protoss too at that point) second patch - the auto mules - terran economy was okayish, still, late game income was not so ok third(current patch) - back to HotS stuff, nothing to comment on it
I understand that but they should work around it and not revert it back to Heart of the swarm, if they keep things like they are now the game will not last more than 2 years after release.
The funny thing is I didn't see much complaining by Terran players about the mule removal. Most of the frustration seemed to be about the lack of income because Blizzard didn't compensate for it in any way. I'd be very surprised if the majority of Terran players would object to the mule being removed as long as there were changes made to keep Terran economy in line with the other races. And it really doesn't appear to me that most Zerg and Protoss players are fans of mules. Seems like a bit of a no-brainer to get rid of the thing...
On September 18 2015 07:08 dust7 wrote: Blizzard's devilish plan to alter the macro mechanics and then slowly revert them back to how they were, all in order to burn the remaining time of beta without having to do any hard design changes, is close to coming full circle.
To be honest, I'd rather have it this way (old HotS mechanic) as it has been for the last weeks. Terran without MULE was very crippled early game, but they should've experimented with other economy models to begin with. Instead, they try to release the game even earlier, what a fuck-up, the problem is their schedule and unwillingness to change the economy/starting workers.
On September 18 2015 16:06 NyxNax wrote: I donno, I feel after they removed the macro boosters, even people that didnt like the idea to begin with changed their minds after playing and have a gut feeling that was the better route. Thinking they reverted because they dont have the time to balance it or were scared to commit because of the time?
The multiple inject thing, imo, is incredibly stupid and I dont think will stick. Use up your transfuse energy doing that, It just feels like an attempted band-aid fix.
While there wasnt even an attempt at a band-aid for the mules is rather disappointing. I'd like to see the mule hammer end. I wish they walked a middle line between these macro boosters. keep the mule but keep them from stacking, so at any point you could only drop 1 per CC or so you can only drop them within a certain range.. That way supply drops are still used and scans are more strategic.
Honestly, at this point I just feel frustrated. I want to go hibernate for the winter and hope when I wake its all perfect...
Yeah, I hated the Idea of removing them when I first heard about them. I seriously considered a race change. HOWEVER, after I tried out the removed mechanics, I found I was having a lot more fun playing the game. I'm actually not looking forward to going back now
Cannot wait the next Balance update this one isn't convincing. I enjoyed Zerg so much without taking care of the inject, Ok it required less skill... but was so fun!
On September 18 2015 16:12 crazedrat wrote: wc3 was awesome. sc2 isnt bad ... biggest problem with sc2 is the community. Wc3 had a much more active and casual community with active map making, clans, interaction. People actually played teams competitively. Sc2 was a failed launch and it's never recovered from that. Blizzard got too into the broodwar mentality, almost becoming delusional thinking every mainstream person was going to devote their lives to becoming a hardcore gamer with no reward and very little incentive. Too much intensity at launch and for a year after drove away people. Whoever chose not to include chat channels in the launch needed to be fired immediately, ultimately it is Dustin Browders responsibility. They should have fired him and put someone else in there.
Broodwar had a quite vivid casual community too and many custom and team games were played. A huge clanwar scene with a wide range from noobs to top players. Even nation wars were played A LOT! In SC2 there is not much else then money tournaments, ladder and pro scene.
On September 18 2015 08:06 edding wrote: What the hell are you doing Blizzard? The MACRO should be remove with no doubt. Most high rank players in Korea wanted to remove MACRO. and now see what happened. Why did you get feedback from that? I can't understand it. MACRO only bring us getting tired of gaming.
On September 18 2015 16:03 Nerchio wrote: I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible
You seem to not understand how important the mule is for terran to keep up economy wise with the other two races. The last 3 patches showed it: first patch - mule removed - terran was unplayable - up to 30% or even less income compared to the other races, not to mention, you lose workers, you're dead (that was true for protoss too at that point) second patch - the auto mules - terran economy was okayish, still, late game income was not so ok third(current patch) - back to HotS stuff, nothing to comment on it
I understand that but they should work around it and not revert it back to Heart of the swarm, if they keep things like they are now the game will not last more than 2 years after release.
The funny thing is I didn't see much complaining by Terran players about the mule removal. Most of the frustration seemed to be about the lack of income because Blizzard didn't compensate for it in any way. I'd be very surprised if the majority of Terran players would object to the mule being removed as long as there were changes made to keep Terran economy in line with the other races. And it really doesn't appear to me that most Zerg and Protoss players are fans of mules. Seems like a bit of a no-brainer to get rid of the thing...
There are hundreds of possible solutions where you cannot sacrifice SCVs but Blizzard is stubborn with MULEs. They need to find their balls and start doing decisions. E.g. - remove MULE, add a spell on OC that for some energy will overclock SCVs in the target area so they can mine faster. This way you have to have SCVs and you can have higher income for a period of time. Just a stupid idea off the top of my head right now.
Macro mechanics are important in an RTS. If we lower the skill ceiling further, there'll never be a player standing out.
Take a look at Hearthstone. There is no best player as all the top 500 players are equally good at making the correct decisions. The only skill in Hearthstone is building decks, as the game play skill ceiling is super low.
If we get a low skill ceiling in sc2, the only thing deciding games will be the luck of the build you choose. Rock paper scissors for real, and that's not an RTS.
If anything, make the macro mechanics harder and suddenly skilled players will start to shine.
To summarize: make the game harder, not easier
[EDIT: I realize that this will intimidate new players, but it will also attract hardcore players who are looking for a competitive game with a super high skill ceiling. A game in which you can become the BEST. I rather have that than some super popular, super easy game.]
i was saying this before, will say now the remove macro mechanics patch was a calculated move to do a very big change (something that everyone was supposedly asking for) to prove this is not working and then revert back to what it was (to say - see, and you thought you know it better then us). Problem is they didn't go entire way with the changes and didn't balance the change. But even then it was OK for a lot of players to not have the macro mechanics. So overall its a failed attempt to be smart, quite pathetic. PS. i wish there were no injects and mules in the game. They make so little sense, its ridiculous. I do like the chrono ability though. why would you complicate your economy structure (the mineral patches, the macro abilities, the mineral collection rate, the gold bases) if this is done at the cost of dealing with existing and new units in the game (like wtf is with disruptor) and with the army skirmishes improvements.
On September 18 2015 16:03 Nerchio wrote: I wish Blizzard understood that Mule is one of the worst mechanics in the game comebacks from 5 scvs or boost from 200 to 3000 income should not be possible
You seem to not understand how important the mule is for terran to keep up economy wise with the other two races. The last 3 patches showed it: first patch - mule removed - terran was unplayable - up to 30% or even less income compared to the other races, not to mention, you lose workers, you're dead (that was true for protoss too at that point) second patch - the auto mules - terran economy was okayish, still, late game income was not so ok third(current patch) - back to HotS stuff, nothing to comment on it
I understand that but they should work around it and not revert it back to Heart of the swarm, if they keep things like they are now the game will not last more than 2 years after release.
The funny thing is I didn't see much complaining by Terran players about the mule removal. Most of the frustration seemed to be about the lack of income because Blizzard didn't compensate for it in any way. I'd be very surprised if the majority of Terran players would object to the mule being removed as long as there were changes made to keep Terran economy in line with the other races. And it really doesn't appear to me that most Zerg and Protoss players are fans of mules. Seems like a bit of a no-brainer to get rid of the thing...
There are hundreds of possible solutions where you cannot sacrifice SCVs but Blizzard is stubborn with MULEs. They need to find their balls and start doing decisions. E.g. - remove MULE, add a spell on OC that for some energy will overclock SCVs in the target area so they can mine faster. This way you have to have SCVs and you can have higher income for a period of time. Just a stupid idea off the top of my head right now.
While I appreciate you agreeing with me, there this thing I keep seeing people say that bothers me. SCV sacking happens in a great minority of games, and the Terran lategame army is weaker than the other two races so it's necessary. It's not like SCV sacking is this epidemic that ruins every TvX game.
Everything is better that autocast, at least for zergs, so I am happy with this. I can play the game again .
Edit: Of course I would like it the most if they removed injects completely, increased the hatchery larva production rate and then gave the queen a zerg chrono boost. With this you still have to look at your base as a zerg and top players can gain an advantage over lesser players when using it well, but it's not as punishing when you don't use it compared to inject.
But I guess that would be too much since the beta is coming to an end, still anything is better than automated injects, so I'm happy with this almost HotS version for now.
When I woke up and saw the balance changes I was a little worried, but after trying out the new inject I actually like it. I inject with individual queen hotkeys so it works perfectly for my style.
After playing the new patch, I hate it. I wish they would just removal all macro mechanics, remove the mothership core, make the queen an upgrade to hatchery and have the queen be stationary on top of the hatch which places a creep tumor beside the hatchery, anything. Remove all gimmicks, this is so ridiculous....
Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways?
You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further.
I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that.
In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate. Part of that is due to 25% less resources per base, too (though less resources or not, DH seems like the better solution..)
Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways?
You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further.
I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that.
In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate
Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important. They are the macro-cycle for zergs.
Although if you ask me, having to manually make units from each barracks/factory/gateway/hatchery would have been the best, in order to make it harder.
People speak about making "positioning" and such the 'hard part' of the game. What people don't realize is that the HARD part about the game should be doing all the macro stuff while STILL microing and having good positioning.
1) So this is the masterplan : slowly going back to HotS mechanics. I can't say I disagree sadly with the 10 nov release, but I'll always wish they'd have tried those bold changes at the freakin beginning of the beta. I'm ready to bet next week chrono boost gets back to its HotS state, which was 100 times better, maybe with slight tweaks to be able to say "look we changed it anyway".
2) Don't buff cyclones, or at least don't make it an all-around massable units. It should be pretty weak vs something, presumably vs ground.
3) Liberator is nerfed, at last. That'll probably do the trick. Same for roach burrow speed.
4) I don't like the evo requirement for drops that will just allow stupid shenanigans again.
5) Pylon overcharge will always be retarded unless it's only on Pylons linked to a warpgate / Nexus.
Overall : a nice preparatory patch for the "fine tuning" period that is coming. Mechanics go back to their HotS state and retarded things get the nerf axe. I expect changes to the adept and warp prism next week. It's sad testing changes to macro mechanics didn't come to their minds until 5 months of beta were gone.
EDIT : I don't necessarily agree with Hydra's answer to HuK. Pros will always be able to make differences, with or without macro mechanics (there weren't any in BW though the clumsy engine and UI limitations made the game far easier to differentiate oneself in).
Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important
Zerg is different. They get 60% of their production from queens so i don't think it's directly comparable to chrono or mule/scan at all. Have the discussion about terran and protoss first!
3) Liberator is nerfed, at last. That'll probably do the trick.
People are just gonna research it then reactor some more out and push vs toss as always. It's only nerfed badly for super early game
On September 18 2015 16:58 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: i was saying this before, will say now the remove macro mechanics patch was a calculated move to do a very big change (something that everyone was supposedly asking for) to prove this is not working and then revert back to what it was (to say - see, and you thought you know it better then us). Problem is they didn't go entire way with the changes and didn't balance the change. But even then it was OK for a lot of players to not have the macro mechanics. So overall its a failed attempt to be smart, quite pathetic. PS. i wish there were no injects and mules in the game. They make so little sense, its ridiculous. I do like the chrono ability though. why would you complicate your economy structure (the mineral patches, the macro abilities, the mineral collection rate, the gold bases) if this is done at the cost of dealing with existing and new units in the game (like wtf is with disruptor) and with the army skirmishes improvements.
Fully agree... There was no attempt to balance T without mule (and the fact that they removed it without adding any sort of adjustment was beyond shortsighted - can you imagine if they removed injects without even considering some additional balance change?)!
IMO macro mechanics ruin the fundamental balance of expanding and taking bases as the primary form of resource collection. Yes, expanding means more hatches to inject / mules / cb... but the way they boost the economy isn't as linear or natural as it is without.
On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote: So, I downloaded Wc3 instead.
It is Act of Aggression for me.
If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote: So, I downloaded Wc3 instead.
It is Act of Aggression for me.
If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
For people that like HotS, these last changes to LotV are normal. HotS lovers have no reason to not play LotV. It is people like me that wanted basic design bullshit from WoL and HotS to be finally fixed in LotV that are giving up now.
I think I will teach my daughter to play BW instead. At least with hard macro it had fun units and abilities.
Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways?
You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further.
I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that.
In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate
Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important. They are the macro-cycle for zergs.
Although if you ask me, having to manually make units from each barracks/factory/gateway/hatchery would have been the best, in order to make it harder.
People speak about making "positioning" and such the 'hard part' of the game. What people don't realize is that the HARD part about the game should be doing all the macro stuff while STILL microing and having good positioning.
On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote: So, I downloaded Wc3 instead.
It is Act of Aggression for me.
If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
For people that like HotS, these last changes to LotV are normal. HotS lovers have no reason to not play LotV. It is people like me that wanted basic design bullshit from WoL and HotS to be finally fixed in LotV that are giving up now.
I think I will teach my daughter to play BW instead. At least with hard macro it had fun units and abilities.
It's sad tbh, even with its undeniable flaws SC2 is infinitely superior to any current strategy game in terms of depth and longetivity.
There was no attempt to balance T without mule (and the fact that they removed it without adding any sort of adjustment was beyond shortsighted - can you imagine if they removed injects without even considering some additional balance change?)!
Inject gives well over half of zerg production (it's about 57.5%). As powerful and abusive as mules can be, they don't make THAT much impact on the game. I think though, inject or more of a healthy mechanic (aside from always being mandatory to cast immediately as it pops, even during a battle instead of microing) while mules are not so healthy. They shine in edgy abuse cases. Terran pulls most of their workers? MULES! Terran took a bunch of harass damage? MULES! Sack all scv's aside from 20 on gas, MULES! In most games they provide relatively passive power - power that could be assigned to other units or a less abusable form of economy instead. That's what i'd like to see.
On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote: So, I downloaded Wc3 instead.
It is Act of Aggression for me.
If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
For people that like HotS, these last changes to LotV are normal. HotS lovers have no reason to not play LotV. It is people like me that wanted basic design bullshit from WoL and HotS to be finally fixed in LotV that are giving up now.
I think I will teach my daughter to play BW instead. At least with hard macro it had fun units and abilities.
It's sad tbh, even with its undeniable flaws SC2 is infinitely superior to any current strategy game in terms of depth and longetivity.
It has more money put into it, that is all. The polish level of sc2 is 3x more than any competition. I don't consider it superior in basic design.
Why do you want to make the game harder by adding chrono boost rather than making it harder in other ways?
You need better mechanics to play Legacy without macro boosters than you ever needed to play WOL and it seems to me like there are more interesting ways to increase that difficulty yet further.
I agree with you, go make the game harder - but chrono boost and mules doesn't seem to be the way to accomplish that.
In fact, when we didn't have chrono or mules the midgame lasted a lot longer than it does now and games turned into multitasking based clusterfucks more often, almost never becoming a 200/200 stalemate
Chronoboost per se doesn't really do much, but injects are very important. They are the macro-cycle for zergs.
Although if you ask me, having to manually make units from each barracks/factory/gateway/hatchery would have been the best, in order to make it harder.
People speak about making "positioning" and such the 'hard part' of the game. What people don't realize is that the HARD part about the game should be doing all the macro stuff while STILL microing and having good positioning.
Hydra doesn't see less viewership, less tournaments and less prizemoney.. there are enough other things to be a pro..
Brood War had infinitely less players than SC2, yet is still a better game. Have you ever thought that perhaps the decline in viewership and so on is because of other things than that the game is too hard for MOBA-people? I mean, the only way to separate professional players is if the skill ceiling is super high. That's the ONLY way to make difference between avarage and top-of-the-top pros. Micro and strategy will never be enough for that, as on the highest level, the micro is already great and all profs knows how to counter X with Y. Simply put: the game needs to get harder so that the really good players can actually shine.
Really happy to see macro mechanics back in the game, though I was never against the idea to slow down the pace of the game by a overall nerf of the macro mechanics, just against the automatisation of said mechanics.
Cyclone on the other hands... Urg. Really dislike the idea to give it AA by default, I never really liked the unit to begin with but now it's a bit stupid.
It's already 5 years of my adventure with SC2 and I have very good mechanics (including spawn larva).
When I first saw changes with removing macro mechanics I was opposite because I remember BW times (I played for many years) and it was crucial aspect of the game. Right now I don't see it matters because all units produce on one hotkey. If You want to bring back good mechanics You should start from removing multiple selection instead of auto-cast.
What about auto-cast? Like I said before first of all I was opposite. But when I played more games I realize it's great and gives much more fun. Finally I can completely focus on strategy aspect of the game not only macro mechanics. I don't know if my skill at auto-spawn larva decreased, like suggested before, but certainly I have more fun with the game itself. I don't have to spend much time in my base, and I can concentrate on strategy, which in RTS game should be a priority. If I want to play the game based on precision I would choose Guitar Hero or TrackMania.
In conclusion I regret that auto-cast has been removed from the game.
Really disappointed... Creep change might be cool and I have absolutely no idea in which state the cyclone is now but why the hell would they bring mule hammer back??
Also rip auto inject or any creative alternative to a pure apm sink as zerg macro.
It's dreadful to follow this saga of David Kim where no promise if ever fulfilled and we are in a constant state of stagnation. This is what happens when there's no idea or no will to follow through on changes towards an endgoal and base your changes around a democratic discourse.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
On September 18 2015 07:20 flipstar wrote: So, I downloaded Wc3 instead.
It is Act of Aggression for me.
If LotV really sucks too hard (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to be honest, even if disappointing patches like that one can be rather unnerving) I'll just stay on HotS which is fairly good.
For people that like HotS, these last changes to LotV are normal. HotS lovers have no reason to not play LotV. It is people like me that wanted basic design bullshit from WoL and HotS to be finally fixed in LotV that are giving up now.
I think I will teach my daughter to play BW instead. At least with hard macro it had fun units and abilities.
It's sad tbh, even with its undeniable flaws SC2 is infinitely superior to any current strategy game in terms of depth and longetivity.
It has more money put into it, that is all. The polish level of sc2 is 3x more than any competition. I don't consider it superior in basic design.
I don't see it personally. I played highly praised Grey Goo and I felt it was very simply designed - every race had one unit of a type. They differed from each other but all races felt really similar - most differences felt like "let's change this and this so that scout will be somehow different from that scout". Yes, the grey goo race had significant asymmetry in lacking aircraft and base management - but no race specific options were on the design level of creep spread, bio/mech duality or warp gate (to name a few).
Seeing that Act of Agression has followed the same basic pattern - one unit of a type for each faction - I won't buy it until it hit sales so that I won't spend much money on a game I likely won't enjoy.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Of course it is lol. Your truth. Every person on the planet has his own truth about everything
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Of course it is lol. Your truth. Every person on the planet has his own truth about everything
How the game is right now remains a fact, and how lowering the skill ceiling would affect the game is also a fact.
The thing i'm concerned about, is do mules have the same mining rate than in HOTS ?
Because Zerg still have 3 larvas per inject (dunno why if not auto-inject anymore), and Protoss have a new chrono (and it's hard to say if it's better or worst than the chrono of HOTS ).
Do Terran macro will be too strong compared to other race ?
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Of course it is lol. Your truth. Every person on the planet has his own truth about everything
How the game is right now remains a fact, and how lowering the skill ceiling would affect the game is also a fact.
Just changing the word from truth to fact or repeating same thing over and over does not change anything. It is still just your opinion.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Of course it is lol. Your truth. Every person on the planet has his own truth about everything
How the game is right now remains a fact, and how lowering the skill ceiling would affect the game is also a fact.
Just changing the word from truth to fact or repeating same thing over and over does not change anything. It is still just your opinion.
Sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Not sure if you're trying to troll, but the current state of the game is just as much a fact and truth as 1+1=2 is. How skill ceilings work is also a fact and a truth, just as 1+1=2.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Of course it is lol. Your truth. Every person on the planet has his own truth about everything
How the game is right now remains a fact, and how lowering the skill ceiling would affect the game is also a fact.
Just changing the word from truth to fact or repeating same thing over and over does not change anything. It is still just your opinion.
Sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Not sure if you're trying to troll, but the current state of the game is just as much a fact and truth as 1+1=2 is. How skill ceilings work is also a fact and a truth, just as 1+1=2.
1+1=2 is undeniable truth because it is definition of 2. Simple explanation, isn't it? Could you please explain you statement "SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded" is the same simple fashion for us dummies?
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Did you play/watch wc3? around zero MM and the gap between good and bad players were infinite bigger than sc2. I do not want that sc2 become to wc3 but it is very sad that the worst & most unfun thing (MM) has the biggest influence in sc2. I prefer to spend more time with my army than with MM or economy.
Edit: I find funny that you dont see that MM increases rock scissor paper element.
On September 18 2015 20:12 FeyFey wrote: finally creep goes bye bye faster, waiting since wol.
Guess that affects creep spread from overlords as well? So overlords denying expansions is weaker now, which is good for the new pace of the game I guess.
On September 18 2015 20:12 FeyFey wrote: finally creep goes bye bye faster, waiting since wol.
That got me thinking: Maybe make creep recede really, really fast. And then upgrade the time based on how many creep tumors and overlords were "supporting" that area of creep?
This way zerg players could actually invest into having longer-lasting creep.
There was no attempt to balance T without mule (and the fact that they removed it without adding any sort of adjustment was beyond shortsighted - can you imagine if they removed injects without even considering some additional balance change?)!
Inject gives well over half of zerg production (it's about 57.5%). As powerful and abusive as mules can be, they don't make THAT much impact on the game. I think though, inject or more of a healthy mechanic (aside from always being mandatory to cast immediately as it pops, even during a battle instead of microing) while mules are not so healthy. They shine in edgy abuse cases. Terran pulls most of their workers? MULES! Terran took a bunch of harass damage? MULES! Sack all scv's aside from 20 on gas, MULES! In most games they provide relatively passive power - power that could be assigned to other units or a less abusable form of economy instead. That's what i'd like to see.
Are you suggesting that it wasn't asinine to remove mules without even thinking about a concurrent T buff (or that the first follow up shouldn't have been a balance adjustment instead of reverting to nerfed mules?)
Injects might be even more important but you cannot discount how much losing that early game burst slowed down everything T could do. A buff to defending (maybe some of those bunker/rax nefts could have been reverted first) would have gone a long way in establishing more bases to compensate for the lowered income rate.
I like it. They have a good game already, changing macro mechanics for the last of segment of a trilogy when the first 2 games had identical macro mechanics would be far too drastic, in my opinion.
Wait until SC3 for those giant changes, this is meant to be the final expansion for SC2. People who are looking for a 'brand new game' are looking in the wrong place, and should be happy Blizzard even entertained your ridiculous ideas for even 10 minutes.
On September 18 2015 20:28 J. Corsair wrote: I like it. They have a good game already, changing macro mechanics for the last of segment of a trilogy when the first 2 games had identical macro mechanics would be far too drastic, in my opinion.
On September 18 2015 17:41 Dingodile wrote: Hydra said on twitter: No.. there always needs a thing that makes a gap among the pros.
I wish the "thing" is Micro or strategy or whatever else and not on economy boost like MM (what Hydra apparently want).
It already is, top Koreans already have almost flawless mechanics. They separate themselves from others with multitasking/micro and strategies. If you take away macro mechanics like inject, there will just simply not enough tasks for top Koreans to do, it will close the gap between top foreigners/bad koreans and the good ones. That's not something we should want.
Broodwar was so glorious because even the top players couldn't achieve flawless macro while also micro'ing and multitasking their army. There was just so much to improve for everyone so the best players could actually seperate themselves from the rest and were being able to dominate for longer periods.
That is your theory. Does not make it true.
What? That isn't even a theory. It's the truth. SC2 is way too easy as it already is, making it even EASIER would only result in a rock paper scissors game where anyone can win and skill is not rewarded.
Of course it is lol. Your truth. Every person on the planet has his own truth about everything
How the game is right now remains a fact, and how lowering the skill ceiling would affect the game is also a fact.
Just changing the word from truth to fact or repeating same thing over and over does not change anything. It is still just your opinion.
Sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Not sure if you're trying to troll, but the current state of the game is just as much a fact and truth as 1+1=2 is. How skill ceilings work is also a fact and a truth, just as 1+1=2.
Only troll here is you trying to present your opinion as truth or fact over and over. You are just embarrassing yourself. Just accept we all deal here with opinions and continue on.
On September 18 2015 20:12 FeyFey wrote: finally creep goes bye bye faster, waiting since wol.
That got me thinking: Maybe make creep recede really, really fast. And then upgrade the time based on how many creep tumors and overlords were "supporting" that area of creep?
This way zerg players could actually invest into having longer-lasting creep.
Long time Lurker here.. I have played a shitton of Beta Games and i was so happy about the state of the game, i had more fun than ever with Autocast. I couldnt even be bothered to go back to hots, i liked it that much. I feel like this is a step in the wrong direction.. lots of disappointment here.
i dont like reverting back to hots macro mechanics. The new ones seemed really solid and gave much more opportunity to diversity. I get the feeling the game will become stale again. Too bad!
On September 18 2015 20:52 zeuslor wrote: Long time Lurker here.. I have played a shitton of Beta Games and i was so happy about the state of the game, i had more fun than ever with Autocast. I couldnt even be bothered to go back to hots, i liked it that much. I feel like this is a step in the wrong direction.. lots of disappointment here.
Which race do you play? Personally, as a zerg, I stopped playing the beta after a few games with auto inject. I want to be in control of my units and just don't like it when they do something I didn't tell them to do.
But more importantly, there was nothing to do in my base and I could watch my army the whole game long. To me it just felt cheap to play and win like this, since the macro part was the challenging part about zerg. Zerg armies are one of the more a-move heavy armies, but that is fine since the races are supposed to be different and the challenge was to get that many units so you can win by just overwhelming your opponent. Now that this challenge was gone, playing zerg just felt unfullfilling.
For Terran and Protoss the changes were okay I think. They still have to build production facilities and have a lot more to do in their base than zerg.
I would be okay if they removed inject completely, increased the hatchery larva spawn rate and then gave the queen a new macro mechanic like chrono boost. Then you would still have to look at your base from time to time if you want to get 100% out of your race, but not using that zerg chrono boost is not as punishing as missing injects. But auto inject is just way too lazy and would make me change races.
Oh and welcome to posting on the forum, no way back now .
Edit: Btw I did not play the new patch yet, might be a really good solution too, just maybe not enough for new casual/new/low level players. I will definitely like it way more than auto-inject.
On September 18 2015 20:52 zeuslor wrote: Long time Lurker here.. I have played a shitton of Beta Games and i was so happy about the state of the game, i had more fun than ever with Autocast. I couldnt even be bothered to go back to hots, i liked it that much. I feel like this is a step in the wrong direction.. lots of disappointment here.
Which race do you play? Personally, as a zerg, I stopped playing the beta after a few games with auto inject. I want to be in control of my units and just don't like it when they do something I didn't tell them to do.
But more importantly, there was nothing to do in my base and I could watch my army the whole game long. To me it just felt cheap to play and win like this, since the macro part was the challenging part about zerg. Zerg armies are one of the more a-move heavy armies, but that is fine since the races are supposed to be different and the challenge was to get that many units so you can win by just overwhelming your opponent. Now that this challenge was gone, playing zerg just felt unfullfilling.
For Terran and Protoss the changes were okay I think. They still have to build production facilities and have a lot more to do in their base than zerg.
I would be okay if they removed inject completely, increased the hatchery larva spawn rate and then gave the queen a new macro mechanic like chrono boost. Then you would still have to look at your base from time to time if you want to get 100% out of your race, but not using that zerg chrono boost is not as punishing as missing injects. But auto inject is just way too lazy and would make me change races.
Oh and welcome to posting on the forum, no way back now .
Edit: Btw I did not play the new patch yet, might be a really good solution too, just maybe not enough for new casual/new/low level players. I will definitely like it way more than auto-inject.
I felt the same and had the same reaction, I stopped playing after testing the auto-cast inject, it felt like playing with a hack.
On September 18 2015 20:52 zeuslor wrote: Long time Lurker here.. I have played a shitton of Beta Games and i was so happy about the state of the game, i had more fun than ever with Autocast. I couldnt even be bothered to go back to hots, i liked it that much. I feel like this is a step in the wrong direction.. lots of disappointment here.
Which race do you play? Personally, as a zerg, I stopped playing the beta after a few games with auto inject. I want to be in control of my units and just don't like it when they do something I didn't tell them to do.
But more importantly, there was nothing to do in my base and I could watch my army the whole game long. To me it just felt cheap to play and win like this, since the macro part was the challenging part about zerg. Zerg armies are one of the more a-move heavy armies, but that is fine since the races are supposed to be different and the challenge was to get that many units so you can win by just overwhelming your opponent. Now that this challenge was gone, playing zerg just felt unfullfilling.
For Terran and Protoss the changes were okay I think. They still have to build production facilities and have a lot more to do in their base than zerg.
I would be okay if they removed inject completely, increased the hatchery larva spawn rate and then gave the queen a new macro mechanic like chrono boost. Then you would still have to look at your base from time to time if you want to get 100% out of your race, but not using that zerg chrono boost is not as punishing as missing injects. But auto inject is just way too lazy and would make me change races.
Oh and welcome to posting on the forum, no way back now .
Edit: Btw I did not play the new patch yet, might be a really good solution too, just maybe not enough for new casual/new/low level players. I will definitely like it way more than auto-inject.
I felt the same and had the same reaction, I stopped playing after testing the auto-cast inject, it felt like playing with a hack.
Yeah exactly haha, I think an inject hack even existed? Not sure, but it felt exactly like that!
Imo that's a good thing they didnt change the macro mechanics as they wanted to do. Especially I think for the MULES. They are so important for terrans to hold on after huge zerg or toss all ins, and at end game to let the terran to make a possible come back. That provides us so exciting games.
When guys are saying mules are imba, on the other side they have to think about great advantages of the other races.
Protoss with chronoboost can upgrade and take sometimes an important 3/3 timing when terran or zerg have not finished their 2/2 yet and produce units very fast too. The possibility to warp with warp prism and pylon is also a big advantage when terrans have to rally all their units and cannot arrive in the fight as fast as protoss do, with for example huge zealots warpins when you thin protoss lost the fight.
Zerg has the possibility to have an incredible and legit maphack with the creep. Also their units are pretty better on the creep. And regarding the way they produce, with good larva injects, they can produce so many units in one shot, as a warpin, but the better option they have is the possibility to switch completely all the tecs. How many games did zerg win with a huge mutas switch when terrans had so many tanks and hellbats because of ultras and roaches or protoss when they have so many collosi without anticipating the stargate for phoenixes ?
So every race has advantage and to mess up with the macro mechanics will be better for us, casual players, but will be terrible for pro gamers who know perfectly the timing and use to know macro mechanics to show us so great games.
Blizzard can change some units, nerf or buff, some upgrade timings they think too imba, but they dont have to touch macro mechanics I think.
I'm disappointed with this patch, but as inject is a horrible mechanic. I hope it will not make it into the final game, and if it do, well i might switch to terran or protoss
So how to use the new inject? I normally use queen control group, then alternate base-cam button and inject button. But now the queen with the most energy goes on a roadtrip to double inject after each hatchery has 1 inject its quite annoying.
Also there is no indicator if the hatch is stacked? So after you stack a hatchery you have no idea when to inject again. It's actually more difficult than normal injects :-/
On September 18 2015 22:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: So how to use the new inject? I normally use queen control group, then alternate base-cam button and inject button. But now the queen with the most energy goes on a roadtrip to double inject after each hatchery has 1 inject its quite annoying.
Also there is no indicator if the hatch is stacked? So after you stack a hatchery you have no idea when to inject again. It's actually more difficult than normal injects :-/
Yeah, I think you go away from the rapid fire Inject and just have 1 Queen sitting at every hatch and that Queen queues up on that Hatch everytime it can.
Chrono is now harder to manage, but if you want to chrono specific buildings for a longer time, you don't have to worry that much. Keep in mind that this is also a nerf to Chrono: in HotS, if you have one Nexus, you can accelerate a building by about 20-25% (can't remember the exact number, I think it's actually very close to 22.5%) with that one Nexus (this is considering the energy regen rate of the Nexus, and that you can't Chrono indefinitely because of it). So it seems that this version of the LotV Crono boost is actually about as effective as the old one. The one thing, though, is that in HotS you can stack Chronos of more Nexi on the same building, so if you have enough Nexi, you can constantly Chrono a building (at least for a certain period of time), so you can produce 50% faster. This is not possible in LotV.
Inject was the most critical one of the three, being the most "mindless clicking lacking any strategic depth". Well, the mindless clicking remains, with no strategic depth still. What is disappearing is the differentiation between good and bad inject players, as the new system is more forgiving (optimally, though, you should still hit your inject cycles the same as in HotS). It's not necessarily bad, but does not really solve the initial problem.
Conclusion: Terran remains the same; Zerg remains pretty much the same on higher levels, more forgiving on lower levels; Protoss is more messy and nerfed. I would be OK with a Chrono nerf (don't see why it's needed, though), but it just feels overly complicated. If anything, revert the changes and make it last longer and cost more energy. This would be the best and easiest solution in my opinion.
Stackable larva injects are sick. pop 6 queens and you have larva for eternity. Missed a few injects? No Worries, take all your queens and shift span larva inject. Within notime you will have 18 larva on every hatchery.
Ok so i guess I'm exaggerating, but still.
I usually go 4 queens, for bease defence, creap spread and stuff, but now all the energy go inte larva, and drones early on.
I can get my third MUCH faster than normal, and my forth too (at 6 min mark i'm not a very good maro player, plat in beta) I can max out before the 10 minute mark. I never could do that before.
It feels insane.
One way to cap it is to lets say hatcheries spawn eggsacks every 4 seconds. As long as your on par with injects it will work the hots way, only one inject per hatchery (eggsack). If you miss an inject there will be 2 eggsacks to inject and hence you will be able to recover. Limit the number of eggsacks per hacthery to 4 and the mechanic ass almost identical to the mule mechanic (max enery 200, each mule costs 50 you can recover 4 mules missed).
As for mules, I still think its total idiocrazy tha terran can spawn free workers, and as the only race in the game make a comeback if he have loost all his workers and has not enough money to build new ones. Ofc new mule still allowed that, but no mule is more fair.
How about the ability to outfic CC with a reactor? Double the scv prod, just like on any other building? works almost like chrono and injects for workers? And Also do not give the terran that game winning advantage of get getting free workers.
Conclusion: Terran remains the same; Zerg remains pretty much the same on higher levels, more forgiving on lower levels; Protoss is more messy and nerfed. I would be OK with a Chrono nerf (don't see why it's needed, though), but it just feels overly complicated. If anything, revert the changes and make it last longer and cost more energy. This would be the best and easiest solution in my opinion.
Yeah, I don't get it. The new chrono isn't easier to use and it also reduces strategic depth, because you can't bank chrono energy and focus it on upgrades/units. In essence the new chrono is just plain worse than the old one.
On September 18 2015 18:17 Tefel wrote: It's already 5 years of my adventure with SC2 and I have very good mechanics (including spawn larva).
When I first saw changes with removing macro mechanics I was opposite because I remember BW times (I played for many years) and it was crucial aspect of the game. Right now I don't see it matters because all units produce on one hotkey. If You want to bring back good mechanics You should start from removing multiple selection instead of auto-cast.
What about auto-cast? Like I said before first of all I was opposite. But when I played more games I realize it's great and gives much more fun. Finally I can completely focus on strategy aspect of the game not only macro mechanics. I don't know if my skill at auto-spawn larva decreased, like suggested before, but certainly I have more fun with the game itself. I don't have to spend much time in my base, and I can concentrate on strategy, which in RTS game should be a priority. If I want to play the game based on precision I would choose Guitar Hero or TrackMania.
In conclusion I regret that auto-cast has been removed from the game.
I really think Blizzard needs to continue exploring the reduced macro mechanics. This just seems like they ran out of time so they are reverting to what's familiar.
Broodwar was the best game ever, still ppl playing it after 15 years and it doesnt have macro boosters... But we need something new, like RooT Hydra said, something to give pros more macro chances relative to their skill... so why not make mules and chronoboosts unbankable like inject and revert inject the same as hots?
On September 18 2015 23:35 K)Vincent wrote: Broodwar was the best game ever, still ppl playing it after 15 years and it doesnt have macro boosters... But we need something new, like RooT Hydra said, something to give pros more macro chances relative to their skill... so why not make mules and chronoboosts unbankable like inject and revert inject the same as hots?
then the game simply becomes too unforgiving and mechanical, because giving too much emphasis on repetitive tasks only acts as a band-aid fix to increase the skill cap
blizzard has to find a good balance between catering to the casuals and professionals with a "easy to learn, hard to master" approach
I'm Relmer, a top Grand Master Protoss player on the beta LOTV and i'm here to explain my though on this patch and i hope Blizzard will have a look about this post..
First of all, i want to apologize for my bad ensligh and tell that i'm writing this post impartial manner and just to help blizzard to increase his game for us and also for me. I think this patch is a disaster for the game and i trully don't understand how we could get there.
Two patch ago (i mean the massive macro changes patch), the changes were huge but really interesting. The economy was slow down a little bit, but not enough to make the game not speed and not interesting, on the contrary it forced player to be really agressive on the harassment because if you get some kill on the opponent's economy, he couldn't chronoboost/mules/or make 15drones in 10sec and so you get a "Real" advantage on the game. Also it forced your opponent to counter harass to be able to continue and to hope win the game.
It seems to be the will of blizzard to go this way concerning the gameplay of Legacy Of The Void, and it is actually a really good thing.
Let's me explain why :
We're all agree than Starcraft II is one of the best (if it's not the best) solo competitive game. and i personally think than it's the best of all competitive game (if i compare it to CSGO/LOL/DOTA). But, it's one of the worst game in terms of viewers so far.
So the question is .. How to make Starcraft II a better competitive game ? The question is not that hard to answer. Beyond the debate of the WCS system which may prevent other tournament because of the calendar, which is a problem because there are no other tournament except WCS... etc..., the point i trully want to highlight is the "game design" i mean by "game design" the fact than people WANT TO WATCH Starcraft II. (and want to play)
It's simple and i want to quote "Day9" to do the analysis, by "game design" i mean:
1 -The number of times that the opponents will have to clash (i mean during the game).
2 -The strategy : we play a RTS and strategy is the heart of this game. (but there is a huge work about this in LOTV concerning the scoot AND --> the lategame zerg vision (protoss have oracle and terrans have scan)).
3 -The skill : there are no secret about Starcraft II is one of the harder game to play at professional level.
4 -The context : number of different situation/map/position etc..
So if we continue to the analysis, we're all agree that Starcraft II HOTS became a game where opponent could play a game of 35mn without a single fight, because of Swarmhost, but also because of mech terran, because of forcefield, because of the balance of power between Zerg units and Protoss/Terran units, and also because zerg can not attack a protoss who's camping and also because a protoss can not attack a zerg who's camping, because of scan, because of sensor tower.. Well, everything in the game seems to be broken, obviously it is way more easier to defend than attack. So it's clear than there are two keys facts : -the harassment -the map conception
The harassment with the current economic system is simply not as good as we want to believe, JUST because of the fact than player just need to chronoboost/mules/or make 15drones and everything seems okay, "i just lost a little times in my build order, no big deal". But during the patch without mules, chronoboost and 2 larva by inject, the harassment was the key of the game. There are no more "passif mode" possible, because you economy was slow the first 10mn and it's was not possible to investing in a lot a defence like turret/bunker/cannon/spore/spine because each mineral, each drone was to precious. So if your opponent get some economic damage, the only way to win was to do the same, and so the game become totally crazy in term of multitasking and way more difficult in general (which is so good to feel when you're a player and also a viewer for sure). In addition it will increase a lot the number 1 of game design analysis (The meeting of Clash)
The map conception is the second important point. Why ? Because maps must be created in order defense to be harder and easier access to bases, Simply to to able to harass the most as possible with drops, nydus, blink, reapers. (For example, Map like Overgrowth was totally a joke, Protoss and Terran bases were too easy to defend and zerg had no choice except camp and hope). In addition i think it should be better for the viewers and also for the player (i guess) to add 4/5 maps in the map pool, in order to increase the number 4 of the game design analysis (The context).
To conclude, i think the last patch is total bullshit, and i feel blizzard is afraid to try news things because they absolutely want to make LOTV a better game, but they are reluctant when they read (for example) the all terran community crying for their mules or others stupid things like that. The patch with the macro changes was totaly AWESOME and i hope blizzard gonna react and go though this way again.
On September 18 2015 23:41 K)Vincent wrote: like they did with Heroes of the storm? worst moba ever made with 2k viewers on twitch?
no, but with previous patch there wasn't really much you could improve on with macro mechanics, since both mules and injects were automated while chrono was permanent. There was no learning process whatsoever, it was completely automatic and was a step in the wrong direction.
also this has nothing to do with heroes of the storm, that game is in a different category than RTS
I'm Relmer, a top Grand Master Protoss player on the beta LOTV and i'm here to explain my though on this patch and i hope Blizzard will have a look about this post..
First of all, i want to apologize for my bad ensligh and tell that i'm writing this post impartial manner and just to help blizzard to increase his game for us and also for me. I think this patch is a disaster for the game and i trully don't understand how we could get there.
Two patch ago (i mean the massive macro changes patch), the changes were huge but really interesting. The economy was slow down a little bit, but not enough to make the game not speed and not interesting, on the contrary it forced player to be really agressive on the harassment because if you get some kill on the opponent's economy, he couldn't chronoboost/mules/or make 15drones in 10sec and so you get a "Real" advantage on the game. Also it forced your opponent to counter harass to be able to continue and to hope win the game.
It seems to be the will of blizzard to go this way concerning the gameplay of Legacy Of The Void, and it is actually a really good thing.
Let's me explain why :
We're all agree than Starcraft II is one of the best (if it's not the best) solo competitive game. and i personally think than it's the best of all competitive game (if i compare it to CSGO/LOL/DOTA). But, it's one of the worst game in terms of viewers so far.
I don't agree about making 15 drones istantly, drop mules and chronoboost make u "ok" after a successful harrass... I'm GM too and I can say that if a terran lost 10 scv to my banes or if I lost 10 drones from an oracle he/I lost the game if there is a good timing in the next attack, it's a matter of skill
On September 18 2015 23:51 K)Vincent wrote: I don't agree about making 15 drones istantly, drop mules and chronoboost make u "ok" after a successful harrass... I'm GM too and I can say that if a terran lost 10 scv to my banes or if I lost 10 drones from an oracle he/I lost the game if there is a good timing in the next attack, it's a matter of skill
We saw Maru this morning down to 0 Scv vs 40 drones and totally crush Rogue 10mn later... How could you tell that ? :D He made 40 scv in few minute, build an army, started upgrade and just won the game I just don't understand why this happend, Be still a head with 0 scv against 40 drones just because he has 2 banshees and 3mules.. that totally crazy
Balance Terran early game around this and see where we go. It's like universally agreed upon now that everyone enjoyed the game way more without the mechanics, but this version with the manual smaller inject that allows low level players to queue would be the best route; good injecting players can still differentiate themselves. As for Terran and toss, let's be real, nobody was differentiating themselves from lower level players with their MULE dropping skills lol
On September 18 2015 23:51 K)Vincent wrote: I don't agree about making 15 drones istantly, drop mules and chronoboost make u "ok" after a successful harrass... I'm GM too and I can say that if a terran lost 10 scv to my banes or if I lost 10 drones from an oracle he/I lost the game if there is a good timing in the next attack, it's a matter of skill
the early game harass is already extremely strong as it is, and easy to pull off and yields you high rewards (speaking about the plethora of options both terran and protoss have to damage mineral lines). If you want to nerf macro mechanics you would have to nerf the early-game harass or the game becomes "who kills more workers, wins" -- especially with some of the current ladder maps like dash & terminal
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam.
How FUN do you think that would make csgo?
How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs?
It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene.
*Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2.
Balance Terran early game around this and see where we go. It's like universally agreed upon now that everyone enjoyed the game way more without the mechanics, but this version with the manual smaller inject that allows low level players to queue would be the best route; good injecting players can still differentiate themselves. As for Terran and toss, let's be real, nobody was differentiating themselves from lower level players with their MULE dropping skills lol
Agreed but ditch inject all together and force more macro hatches. Tweak the larva times/numbers per hatch if necessary. If jerg is really still "2ez" without inject then add something else in thats more interesting than forced 30 second injects.
This patch feels dissapointin to me, I really liked the automated macro, but this is just HOTS all over again, I'm gonna complain on BNet forums till I die.
I don't get to play in the past (and coming) days, so could someone just clarify: Zerg now has to inject manually again, but injects are still only 75% efficiency, while Terran got the old Mule back on top of the 12worker start buff (relative to zerg economy)?
On September 18 2015 23:59 ShambhalaWar wrote: I would like people to consider this,
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam.
How FUN do you think that would make csgo?
How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs?
It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene.
*Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable.
On September 18 2015 23:59 ShambhalaWar wrote: I would like people to consider this,
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam.
How FUN do you think that would make csgo?
How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs?
It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene.
*Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable.
BW macro is harder but BW wasn't designed around terrible, terrible damage. Players could macro without their opponents' deathball destroying their deathball in <5 seconds of terrible, terrible damage. Many top players macro in the middle of engagements because engagements lasted a lot longer. SC2 doesn't need artificial macro mechanics to mimic BW's UI limitations.
On September 19 2015 00:09 Big J wrote: I don't get to play in the past (and coming) days, so could someone just clarify: Zerg now has to inject manually again, but injects are still only 75% efficiency, while Terran got the old Mule back on top of the 12worker start buff (relative to zerg economy)?
A lot of people here are talking about why people don't play/watch SC2, have any of you asked people who have tried sc2 and disliked it?
I asked a few of my friends who tried the game, got a rank (bronze/silver mostly,) and then quit why they didn't like the game.
"I don't like the feeling that my entire army is about to die at any moment. I'm scared to macro"
"I don't like that I can lose if I am not looking at my workers for 1 second"
"The fights always seem one-sided, either my army melts or his army melts."
"Are there still banelings?"
These were all in response to me telling them about the removal of macro mechanics because I, like many others here, assumed they would be intrigued. Almost every one of them mentioned a specific unit they remember hating and 2/3 of those were aoe units. (bane, collo, banshee) These are all people who played at least one RTS in multiplayer, mostly dawn of war for what it's worth.
I'm not trying to say that my friends represent everyone who doesn't play, nor am I insinuating that they are correct in any objective sense. What I am saying is that there is more to getting swaths people to play SC2 than reducing the amount of clicks involved in macro.
That being said, I personally am disappointed that they seem to be reverting changes rather than making changes. Hopefully this is just a placeholder for a new approach to the macro mechanics
On September 19 2015 00:09 Big J wrote: I don't get to play in the past (and coming) days, so could someone just clarify: Zerg now has to inject manually again, but injects are still only 75% efficiency, while Terran got the old Mule back on top of the 12worker start buff (relative to zerg economy)?
I'm a bit disappointed. I think macro boosting mechanics should exist, but their effect should be way nerfed from HOTS for two reasons: to slow down the game and to make it less punishing for new users if they don't hit them perfectly.
SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies.
Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well.
While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4.
The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome.
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along.
Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground.
I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet.
Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do.
I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level
On September 18 2015 23:41 RelmerSc2 wrote: To conclude, i think the last patch is total bullshit, and i feel blizzard is afraid to try news things because they absolutely want to make LOTV a better game, but they are reluctant when they read (for example) the all terran community crying for their mules or others stupid things like that. The patch with the macro changes was totaly AWESOME and i hope blizzard gonna react and go though this way again.
Thanks for reading. Relmer.
thanks for posting.
i think the clock is ticking and the money is running out that is the main reason. they need to see some cash before committing even more resources to the multiplayer. which generates very little money to begin with. there is no way this game makes even $0.1 Billion USD.
they are reluctant to attempt this radical a change so close to the release date when their own team is in a 50/50 split over whether or not it improves the game. Sigaty hinted strongly at large changes after the release date with changes on par with how much Diablo3 changed post release.
the way Sigaty was talking in his 2 interviews with Millenium and PCGamesN .. they will prolly revisit this issue when they have more time after release. it'll be interesting to see what happens.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2
its these constant passive-aggressive attack style criticisms that make your content difficult to take seriously. it is entertaining though.
DK stated half the team was in favour of macro-mechanics removal. whatever the best route is ... i would not say its obvious, nor would i say that those who disagree with me are ignorant of what makes SC2 fun. it can just be a simple difference of opinion. no need to heap on an additional layer of drama in the disagreement with some kind of attack.
Designing an RTS that is fun for 50 APM and 250 APM and all points in between .. is a tough problem to solve. Give the difficult problem that it is .. its due respect rather than attacking those who disagree with you.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies.
Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well.
While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4.
The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome.
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along.
Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground.
I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet.
Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do.
I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level
:D
Im with you, but still. The macro mechanics in hots are broken and has to be reworked...
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Maybe auto injects yes, but the majority of the community HATED the macro mecahnics. It's the "vocal minority" that WANTS the macro mechanics to stay....
Just look at the polls.... If you like macro mechanics YOU are the minority...
Nerf all the major macro mechanic potencies by 50% since we're back to 100%.
Should Chrono stack be gone? HotS Chrono on autocast with designated target. Else just HotS.
Should Mule stack be gone? Mule gets cooldowned and blocks harvesting. Else just blocks harvesting.
Should Larva stack be gone? Hatch larva max 3 and buffered version of HotS. Else just buffered HotS.
PO defense case weak at area coverage to protect workers against Zerg and Protoss. So if a nerf goes through, it should have its range increased to help with the collateral damage of hurting offense case.
On September 19 2015 00:41 Fecalfeast wrote: "Are there still banelings?"
Less volatile result comes from deflation of the numbers, taking AoE + high DPS units and nerfing them. Can nerf AoE by making units fatter or shrinking AoE radii. In return making the hit in the radius more impactful.
On September 19 2015 04:04 Slashdead wrote: Played the beta last night and was so happy manual inject was back by far my favorite lotv patch recently
Will never understand this mindset. Z players so willing to nerf themselves.
The time with auto-cast taught me something, it taught me that the only thing that i am truly good at for my level of play keeping up with injecting. I suck at Micro, decision making, strategy, tactics, scouting, overlord timings, protecting my mineral line. Injecting is my crutch.
I don't think that this idea was nearly played out enough, especially at a high level for them to "pretty much" revert back to HOTS mechanics. Seems rather lazy.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Maybe auto injects yes, but the majority of the community HATED the macro mecahnics. It's the "vocal minority" that WANTS the macro mechanics to stay....
Just look at the polls.... If you like macro mechanics YOU are the minority...
to be fair its pretty close to a 50/50 split though..its not like only 10% of people like macro mechanics.
here is 1 poll going on during "The Patch"
33% strongly against the latest patch 25% strongly for it.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Maybe auto injects yes, but the majority of the community HATED the macro mecahnics. It's the "vocal minority" that WANTS the macro mechanics to stay....
Just look at the polls.... If you like macro mechanics YOU are the minority...
to be fair its pretty close to a 50/50 split though..its not like only 10% of people like macro mechanics.
here is 1 poll going on during "The Patch"
33% strongly against the latest patch 25% strongly for it.
Seeing as we're pretty much back where we started. Not sure how i like the idea of queuing Injects, Ill have to play to see how it functions better.
Though it still doesn't seem equal.
I Mean if you missed your last 4 inject cycles, and you go back to inject and que the other 3. You don't receive any immediate benefit at that time for the 2nd inject or the 3rd inject or the 4th inject. It just means that you don't have to come back to your base as frequently for the next 120 seconds.
Where as the 4 base Terran with 4 CC's come back from not having macro properly and throws down his 16 mules and immediately benefits from the built up energy. (Yes the may not have the infrastructure to support the income, but hes still benefiting far more than Z player with less than optimal macro.)
I think a much better way to make it not as punishing for casuals, but still reward players who do hit their macro mechanic timings is reducing the efficiency for subsequent mechanics used.
What if subsequent energy injects were only half as efficient, yielding only 2 larva? So if a queen has enough energy for 3 injects, a player can choose to inject all his energy for a total of 8 larva (+ Show Spoiler +
) However had that player injected 3 times at the appropriate time he would have had 12 larva from the same amount of energy. Not to mention time value of larva they would be available sooner.
Or if the 2nd mule per patch only returned 75 percent of the minerals it normally would per trip, and the 3rd per mineral line only 50 percent.
Or if Structures could be Chrono multiple times but say if normal chono is 1.5 times faster two chrono on a structure is only 1.75 times as fast and so on.
Obviously the percentages and such would have to be balanced, but either way its less punishing for newer players. But Still creates incentive for pros to use their mechanics optimally.
Rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level
I'm sorry, aren't you the most abusive Terran player in all of existence on TL, abuse mech, focus on doing nothing the entirety of the game, and then hopefully win with maxed 3-3 army? Sounds like you could be a Hello Kitty pro np.
Blegh, i really liked the auto inject feature. i'm not against macro mechanics at all as long as they require some decisions. Chronoboost gives some decisions. Supply depot vs scanning is also a decision. Injecting however is not, it's bland boring stuff you have to do every so many seconds to play zerg well. I can't be bothered with zerg at all anymore with it back because I can't be arsed knowing the biggest improvement i can make simply is injecting well.
And I think what Avilo sais is ridiculous what without those macro mechanics the game is too easy, you have a ton of different stuff to maximize and do already anyway. Scouting better, doing small harass, all that stuff. Injecting is just not an interesting thing you almost never not inject for strategical reasons because you need to use the energy for something else. You simply make extra queens then.. And for viewership it's stupid to, people aren't impressed by good injecting. They like to see good unit switches of zerg, perfect timing making army at just the right moment. Playing as greedy as one can get or suddenly attacking with everything.
If the game becomes a little more warcraft 3/4 wouldn't be that bad I think, that game in terms of viewing is far more intense. Sure you can go too far with macro mechanics, Age of mythology made that mistake once. But there unit making was automated and units were incredibly dull nor was there much micro. That problem is not nearly close to existing in sc2 and there is a ton of macro left. Just keep inject automated. Zerg still has creep to macro. Protoss has simple chronoboost. Terran automated MULEs. It was the best change in LOTV and i'm sad to see it reverted.
On one hand nice to see Blizz trying various stuff out and not being afraid to revert and the like. On the other hand the pace at which they test and the moves they make are too stupid :<.
All the whine about Inject... I wonder why they even played before these weeks of Beta with Zerg for years and now they are like "I quit" For the people who stop playing years ago... well, nice for they, so can go back to their games, SC2 wasn't for them in the first place
This changes give me mixed feelings, I don't know what to expect on the game anymore, and all the other problems and things I wanted to see changed remain the same now... but Collosus damage has been nerfed at least and Cyclone seems better, while Libs finally got nerfed.
I don't see a reason to move from SB to LotV tho... but at least it could be worth watching when pros play.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
I get what you're trying to say, but the people who want those three abilities removed, are hyper conservative, and want to revert the level play back to days when people were playing Golden Eye on N64 and the original Resident Evil on Playstation 1. Shit, dude. People were still playing Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness in the Reagan-Days of RTS (Broodwar)(Sorry non-US member for the Reagan reference, lol).
Since Larva is basically Zerg's barracks/factory/starport / gateway/robo/stargate, it was utterly absurd to put it on auto-cast. MULE and Chrono aren't even in the same conversation as Spawn Larva. I think we all knew auto-Zerg was going to be removed, lol.
I'm super happy to see they're going to start fixing some of the broken units in the game. This will make things better for everyone.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Since Larva is basically Zerg's barracks/factory/starport / gateway/robo/stargate, it was utterly absurd to put it on auto-cast. MULE and Chrono aren't even in the same conversation as Spawn Larva. I think we all knew auto-Zerg was going to be removed, lol.
I think what a lot of people seem to be missing about Zerg macro is that it's not about injecting properly - as some others have said, larva inject skill is literally just remembering to run through some keystrokes every 45 seconds. The real key to Zerg macro is choosing what to do with your larave. Do you make all drones, some drones and roaches, all mutas? This is the important decision that separates great Zergs from the swarm.
To your point about Zergs making all units from one building - that's true, but Protoss and Terran only have three unit-producing buildings, four if you count nexus/cc. Not that big of a difference. On top of that, for gateway units, you literally click and a unit appears. That's much simpler than having to choose between workers or army every time you make a unit.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Maybe auto injects yes, but the majority of the community HATED the macro mecahnics. It's the "vocal minority" that WANTS the macro mechanics to stay....
Just look at the polls.... If you like macro mechanics YOU are the minority...
to be fair its pretty close to a 50/50 split though..its not like only 10% of people like macro mechanics.
here is 1 poll going on during "The Patch"
33% strongly against the latest patch 25% strongly for it.
One of many... just look at the post on this forum that contains a list of the polls...
and DK stated the team was split 50/50. seeing all the other polls and opinions in various places i think DK's 50/50 split thing passes the smell test; is it EXACTLY 50.0000 % .. no its not...
but, don't try to say that only 10% want the macro mechanics added back because that just aint so
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies.
Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well.
While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4.
The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome.
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along.
Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground.
I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet.
Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do.
I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level
:D
avilo not whining about starcraft 2 balance. hell must be freezing over.
anyway, im not sure that the current changes are in line with what blizzard has been trying to do since the start of the beta. im fairly confident that we'll see at least one more big macro patch before the design phase is over.
I was thinking about reducing creep tumor's creep generation radius a bit (85%?) so it would need more attention to spread creep. creep mana cost would have to be reduced as well (20?) to be used with autocast/channeled inject.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies.
Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well.
While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4.
The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome.
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along.
Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground.
I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet.
Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do.
I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level
:D
Really good post, and i completely agree. Blizz should be focusing on the units now, including the old ones from previous expansions, Tanks, Voidrays,Tempests, Hydra's to name but a few
Well, guess I won't have to feel silly anymore for constantly pressing E to drop MULEs even though it was automated. Such habits are hard to break.
The one thing I did like about the removal of the MULE was that the Orbital was no longer a forced choice. You could actually choose to leave your CC as a CC and do something else with the minerals. It also opened up the option for more use of the PF. Oh well.
On September 19 2015 03:28 avilo wrote: SC2 is alive again thank god. It's just a vocal minority imo or casuals that thought auto-inject hack being in the game was good for SC2. It was absolutely god awful terrible that that was ever implemented in the first place.
Everything was skewed. Instead of gutting SC2 with macro mechanic changes, they should have concentrated on game unit balance and design, and other abilities and tweaking things like nuke cost/nydus worm cost, and etc. to spice up LOTV meta and strategies.
Macro changes were never needed in SC2. The game was functioning really well.
While i agree big changes are good for SC2, the changes that blizzard did with macro mechanics would have eventually killed off SC2 and made it into essentially Warcraft 3/4.
The big changes people should be asking for and looking for are in patches to come in terms of how units are used by each race, unit balance, new abilities, new design, maybe even more new units in the future. Things along those lines are awesome.
I feel the people that thought macro mechanic removal was good truely did not understand SC2 or they are being misled by their own self-feeling of "oh this is new AWESOME!" That feeling of it's new is misleading, because it's temporary and when it came to such game breaking things as removing macro mechanics trust me - months later people would realize how terrible auto-injects, no mules, and bad chrono were going to mess up SC2 beyond repair.
Blizzard hopefully can get back on track now and work on new units, balance, and design tweaks for the rest of the beta as they should have been all along.
Long live SC2, and for those of you that thought having auto-inject hack in SC2 was good for SC2...you really should reconsider your opinion on that issue and realize you really probably didn't think auto-inject was good for SC2, but you were in a euphoria that blizzard was finally making "huge changes" to the game...despite the fact those changes were absolutely horrible changes that would crush SC2 into the ground.
I am with you though if you believe SC2 should have big changes that are good for the game and promote more strategies, more diversity in the metagame at pro level, and a continual developmental cycle of brand new things for the game in all aspects. Those changes i'm sure blizzard will surprise us with in good ways and they will happen i bet.
Blizzard has said they are going to be dedicated to the continual development/patching of LOTV post-launch. Imagine what that can mean down the line for SC2. More new units? More awesome new abilities? It is highly possible that despite LOTV being the "last" game in the SC2 universe...that blizzard will keep this game alive via large content patches akin to how new champions are released in MOBAs. Imagine months or a year from now blizzard announcing some gameplay trailer video of a new P/T/Z unit and what it can do.
I think THAT is the type of change a lot of you will want to see. Amazing additions to the core gameplay of SC2 that change the gameplay of the game, rather than destroy the game slowly by making the game so easy a professional Hello Kitty Adventuers player could play at grandmasters level
:D
Really good post, and i completely agree. Blizz should be focusing on the units now, including the old ones from previous expansions, Tanks, Voidrays,Tempests, Hydra's to name but a few
There are a lot of things blizzard could have done with this beta, in the end they accomplished very little for the time they had. Even worse, a lot of the bigger changes are ultimately band aid fixes which create more problems themselves. My only hope is that blizzard won't be afraid to do big changes even when the game is out, if not sc2 won't ever be reaching its true potential.
Actually, I'd say one of the biggest effects the macro patches have had on the game is game length. I don't have any actual evidence to back this up other than the fact that I watch a tremendous amount of SC2, but one of the things I noticed when watching SC2 during this particular period of the beta phase was that games were just a lot longer. In HOTS, you can trade energy for economy or trade energy for tech (the ladder necessary for timing attacks), but during this particular beta phase you could really only trade that energy for economy, and it was all automated. As a result, nearly all games went the longer macro match route!
Although I like the idea of easing up the macro mechanics, it really messes with the variability of the overall game. As much as I like a long, epic war between two players, some of the best SC2 games are actually those 12-15 minute games where you're watching a player weather out a timing attack (like a Blink Stalker all-in against a 3 base Zerg scrambling to defend with just roaches). And it's not like that capability completely disappeared, but when your macro mechanics are kinda automated for you, it makes weathering one out a lot easier than it was in the past since there a are fewer variables to make mistakes with.
Secondly, Archon Mode appears to be becoming a much desired "thing" to watch in the eSports scene. In Archon mode, games are just "bigger" with fewer overall mistakes being made. They're fantastic to watch, but they could use some added variability. With two players, you just need a lot to do.
On September 18 2015 23:59 ShambhalaWar wrote: I would like people to consider this,
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam.
How FUN do you think that would make csgo?
How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs?
It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene.
*Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable.
I think I did not make my point very clear.
That being said, reloading is a legitimate decision that depends on a good number of variables.
For example, if I spray 17 rounds of a 20 round mag to kill 1 of 2 opponents, do I then reload (which will probably lead to me getting killed by his spray down) or do I try to kill him with my last 3 rounds? Do I switch to my pistol which will cause less damage, but give me more rounds? do I spray my 3 rounds and go for the knife? Do i have a nade or flash?
Past that, the reason I made the comparison is because reload is a required mechanic at some point in a match, and inject is no different. For the first minute of the game there might be a choice to inject or tumor, but past that it is only a requirement.
So why not make inject simpler like the reload? The argument people are putting out there is that, "if we make it easier, then pros won't be able to stand out, because everyone will macro like a pro."
My point, is that pros will still stand out even if inject is easier or automatic (or close to automatic, I don't think people would want auto reload in csgo). This is why i used csgo as an example, because the "mechanics" of the game are extremely simple (you press one key to reload), yet the skill ceiling is extremely high.
Global elite is a true accomplishment, if you made it that high your not a pleb. And the people that made it that high didn't do so off complicated mechanics like inject cycles. If you made inject the equivalent of reload in difficultly to execute, you would still have a large gap between professional players and everyone else. It wouldn't be even remotely close, it would be the same as it is today with the current mechanics, because there is so much to master in LOTV.
By the reverse logic, if you made the reload mechanic as difficult as inject (a series of keystrokes you spam) you wouldn't make the better players "stand out more," you would probably just stifle the fun of the game and frustrate professional players.
On September 20 2015 09:08 Ranari wrote: Actually, I'd say one of the biggest effects the macro patches have had on the game is game length. I don't have any actual evidence to back this up other than the fact that I watch a tremendous amount of SC2, but one of the things I noticed when watching SC2 during this particular period of the beta phase was that games were just a lot longer. In HOTS, you can trade energy for economy or trade energy for tech (the ladder necessary for timing attacks), but during this particular beta phase you could really only trade that energy for economy, and it was all automated. As a result, nearly all games went the longer macro match route!
Although I like the idea of easing up the macro mechanics, it really messes with the variability of the overall game. As much as I like a long, epic war between two players, some of the best SC2 games are actually those 12-15 minute games where you're watching a player weather out a timing attack (like a Blink Stalker all-in against a 3 base Zerg scrambling to defend with just roaches). And it's not like that capability completely disappeared, but when your macro mechanics are kinda automated for you, it makes weathering one out a lot easier than it was in the past since there a are fewer variables to make mistakes with.
Secondly, Archon Mode appears to be becoming a much desired "thing" to watch in the eSports scene. In Archon mode, games are just "bigger" with fewer overall mistakes being made. They're fantastic to watch, but they could use some added variability. With two players, you just need a lot to do.
Watch the red bull tourney, the best players in the world and mistakes are still made. I don't think they need anything else to do.
If 2 pros can't perfectly play 1 side in lotv, that says a lot about the skill ceiling and multitasking.
Since we seem to have entered the fine tuning phase, I would like the next community update to point out all the potential problems they've identified and their stance on them. So far they only talk about issues when they're ready to push out a solution, but I would like them to make a global point on the state of the game atm ; what do they think of adepts ? Warp prisms ? Cyclones ? Ultras ? Swarm hosts ? Would be interesting to read.
On September 18 2015 23:59 ShambhalaWar wrote: I would like people to consider this,
In csgo, imagine if every time you had to reload, instead of pressing the "r" button had to press a more complicated sequence of buttons such as, "F1, F2, F3, F4, R, shift+S." The argument behind this being that it mimics the "stress of combat on a simple action like reloading." And maybe if you messed up you would be punished with a jam.
How FUN do you think that would make csgo?
How much do you think that would "DIFFERENTIATE" the pros from the plebs?
It would make the game terrible, less people would play it, and it wouldn't help the esports scene.
*Every extremely popular sport in the world is based off a simple set of rules and mechanics, and pros always differentiate themselves from the average player. Csgo is no exception, it is a much simpler game than LOTV and the "mechanics" are pushing 1 button to reload or shift walking, yet it absolutely has a pro scene with consistent players that stand out at the top despite not have a complex system of mechanics to help them stand out. It would be the same with no macro mechanics or auto mechanics in sc2.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but the analogy is poor. There is no choice between reloading and not reloading in CS:GO. None, as far as I know, at all. The freedom of choice regarding macro mechanics in SC2 may be quite minor, but there nevertheless is some wiggling room and space for decision making. Reloading is not comparable.
I think I did not make my point very clear.
That being said, reloading is a legitimate decision that depends on a good number of variables.
For example, if I spray 17 rounds of a 20 round mag to kill 1 of 2 opponents, do I then reload (which will probably lead to me getting killed by his spray down) or do I try to kill him with my last 3 rounds? Do I switch to my pistol which will cause less damage, but give me more rounds? do I spray my 3 rounds and go for the knife? Do i have a nade or flash?
Past that, the reason I made the comparison is because reload is a required mechanic at some point in a match, and inject is no different. For the first minute of the game there might be a choice to inject or tumor, but past that it is only a requirement.
So why not make inject simpler like the reload? The argument people are putting out there is that, "if we make it easier, then pros won't be able to stand out, because everyone will macro like a pro."
My point, is that pros will still stand out even if inject is easier or automatic (or close to automatic, I don't think people would want auto reload in csgo). This is why i used csgo as an example, because the "mechanics" of the game are extremely simple (you press one key to reload), yet the skill ceiling is extremely high.
Global elite is a true accomplishment, if you made it that high your not a pleb. And the people that made it that high didn't do so off complicated mechanics like inject cycles. If you made inject the equivalent of reload in difficultly to execute, you would still have a large gap between professional players and everyone else. It wouldn't be even remotely close, it would be the same as it is today with the current mechanics, because there is so much to master in LOTV.
By the reverse logic, if you made the reload mechanic as difficult as inject (a series of keystrokes you spam) you wouldn't make the better players "stand out more," you would probably just stifle the fun of the game and frustrate professional players.
Why do you compare reload to inject? Reloading isn't anyhwere near as important to csgo as macro is to sc2. If we want to keep macro as a part of the game there simply has to be extra difficulty in the zerg macro because otherwise it is way easier than the terran and toss one. You guys probably wanna reduce the importance of macro and make micro the most important skill, that is another discussion entirely though.
I'd much rather see all macro mechanics taken out still, it was the most fun patch by far. By far. But queuing injects is better than I thought it'd be. Basically after you get distracted by something critical and have that tiny bit of extra energy, for a while you can go inject early and queue it up.
Are cyclones strong vs ground as it is ? And do they still display their circles for everyone ? That used to be rather annoying when facing compositions with a lot of cyclones.
On September 21 2015 05:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: Are cyclones strong vs ground as it is ? And do they still display their circles for everyone ? That used to be rather annoying when facing compositions with a lot of cyclones.
Cyclone ground damage was nerfed (was 600 vs everything, now it's 400+200 vs armored). Hard to tell whether that's strong or not, because no one's playing them, but then again, no one was playing them before the patch either.
I suspect they'll still be good against Protoss, should mech ever get figured out (Cyclone/Mine looks good on paper vs most P comps), but not against Zerg.
The number itself looks reasonable (roughly unsieged tank dps with the ability to fire on the move).
On September 21 2015 05:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: Are cyclones strong vs ground as it is ? And do they still display their circles for everyone ? That used to be rather annoying when facing compositions with a lot of cyclones.
Cyclone ground damage was nerfed (was 600 vs everything, now it's 400+200 vs armored). Hard to tell whether that's strong or not, because no one's playing them, but then again, no one was playing them before the patch either.
I suspect they'll still be good against Protoss, should mech ever get figured out (Cyclone/Mine looks good on paper vs most P comps), but not against Zerg.
The number itself looks reasonable (roughly unsieged tank dps with the ability to fire on the move).
thanks. It kinda looks reasonable, though I hope massing cyclones is not viable ever. Circles and dots everywhere on the screen.
On September 20 2015 09:08 Ranari wrote: Actually, I'd say one of the biggest effects the macro patches have had on the game is game length. I don't have any actual evidence to back this up other than the fact that I watch a tremendous amount of SC2, but one of the things I noticed when watching SC2 during this particular period of the beta phase was that games were just a lot longer. In HOTS, you can trade energy for economy or trade energy for tech (the ladder necessary for timing attacks), but during this particular beta phase you could really only trade that energy for economy, and it was all automated. As a result, nearly all games went the longer macro match route!
Although I like the idea of easing up the macro mechanics, it really messes with the variability of the overall game. As much as I like a long, epic war between two players, some of the best SC2 games are actually those 12-15 minute games where you're watching a player weather out a timing attack (like a Blink Stalker all-in against a 3 base Zerg scrambling to defend with just roaches). And it's not like that capability completely disappeared, but when your macro mechanics are kinda automated for you, it makes weathering one out a lot easier than it was in the past since there a are fewer variables to make mistakes with.
Secondly, Archon Mode appears to be becoming a much desired "thing" to watch in the eSports scene. In Archon mode, games are just "bigger" with fewer overall mistakes being made. They're fantastic to watch, but they could use some added variability. With two players, you just need a lot to do.
Watch the red bull tourney, the best players in the world and mistakes are still made. I don't think they need anything else to do.
If 2 pros can't perfectly play 1 side in lotv, that says a lot about the skill ceiling and multitasking.
those mistakes might have a lot to do with communication issues.
On September 21 2015 05:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: Are cyclones strong vs ground as it is ? And do they still display their circles for everyone ? That used to be rather annoying when facing compositions with a lot of cyclones.
Cyclone ground damage was nerfed (was 600 vs everything, now it's 400+200 vs armored). Hard to tell whether that's strong or not, because no one's playing them, but then again, no one was playing them before the patch either.
I suspect they'll still be good against Protoss, should mech ever get figured out (Cyclone/Mine looks good on paper vs most P comps), but not against Zerg.
The number itself looks reasonable (roughly unsieged tank dps with the ability to fire on the move).
thanks. It kinda looks reasonable, though I hope massing cyclones is not viable ever. Circles and dots everywhere on the screen.
Not really, rather than the damage nerf the vision requirement nerfed the cyclone more, since cyclones require to be kitted all the time, it gets really hard to do so without breaking the lock-on, and since they are bad in direct engagements, specially after the health nerf, massing cyclones isn't as OP as before.
That being said massing cyclone is still the only viable mech composition (apart from liberators that is) but its hard to know if thats because cyclones are still too good or if its because tanks still suck ass, wich they do, but its hard to know if they suck enough to not be made almost at all.
I find it depressing that this expansion release is basically the last hope of Blizzard fixing some of the fundamental design problems that make the game less fun to play/spectate, and I just don't see it happening at this point. I really wanted to return to SC2 with the release of LotV but I just haven't seen enough to draw me back in. I am certain many people feel the same way, whether it be due to the design of Protoss, macro mechanics, Depth of Micro, all that shit. I resent Browder and Kim's seeming unwillingness to reevaluate some of elements of SC2's core design.
EPT
