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Norway28528 Posts
On August 17 2015 20:47 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion. While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here. The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried. Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment. Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison.  While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare. Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do. you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there. However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I actually didn't realize that, I thought there was a period of time where he lived in korea between 2008 and 2015. Honestly, if that's not the case, then I think my argument is slightly weaker/ it has to be slightly altered to focus on 'professional environment available to him' or something.
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Bisutopia19142 Posts
On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... .
now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ?
now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
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agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
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On August 17 2015 23:52 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 21:35 tenacity wrote:On August 17 2015 20:47 GeckoXp wrote:
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops. I'd say mostly passion, hard work and talent. In addition Scan seems to be a perfectionist. He wants his timings to be as crisp as possible and always looks for weaknesses in his play. Being able to speak Korean and, thus, being able to discuss strategies with other Koreans and having access to additional sources (Light's strategy guides come to my mind) should not be underestimated, especially at that level. Not lagging on Fish is also huge. Btw, playing from the US is not a big issue though. I think you can play on low lat on Fish when you live in California. Could have been a different story if he lived in Bulgaria or Congo. That just underlines what annoys me so much in this conversation. Scan clearly did improve on his own, but people still phrase their posts as if he was some idiot. Basically a lot of jealousy talking, the kid did invest and got something back. Big deal. Others can't do that, no problem. But it's still an achievement. Scan really didn't do anything wrong. Also, in my eyes he is enough to be considered a borderline foreigner - just like Pro7ect, Michael or god knows who else. He is part of our scene for better or worse. However, he broke out of the foreign/amateur leagues, he simply can't be counted "unprofessional" anymore. The Chinese records speak for themselves. I'm fine with players argueing like that and with any decision to exclude Scan or include other border-line pros like the Chinese or up-and-coming SOSPA stars. Just say so. If you can't, almost all of XKCD's posts about how we portray ourselves to outsiders is entirely correct.
i dunno about michael but pro7ect u could say he was a russian in a korean Body,back then wcg 2005 he was already involved in russian lans etc,btw there is a reason why he is not around anymore ,dunno if you know why,i dont know Scan life but i can tell talking with pro7ect and scan is very different,Scan is from different culture where he only shows his real face when he is angry,the only in common that has Scan and pro7ect is some incident.but dont gonna keep with this talk,is not the case.
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On August 18 2015 01:35 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... .
now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ?
now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_- That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
i was pretty sure u casted it hmm ,i was wrong then ,the organizer was a guy called forcewater
Here are the final details for the teambattle event. If you have a problem with anything here, please let me know ASAP.
The event will be a best of 5/first to 3 winner's league format with 3 players (one for each race) per team. The teams have been randomly selected using random.org and will be as follows:
Eonzerg, Cryoc, Locdog
vs
Zaraki, Sterling, LancerX
The maps, in order of play (also selected using random.org), will be:
Neo MoonGlaive
Destination
Mist
Neo Harmony
Othello
You can download them here.
Turn up to channel "op teambattle" on the Fish server at 19:00GMT on Friday the 22nd of August. I'll be there and will be able to host games if that's an issue. The prize will be $10 each for the winning team. Please also let me know your Paypal address.
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On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote:
agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
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i never throwed a game in my life in purpose,when im in the game i play to win,i feel good winning,lossing sux,im so angry after my loss but keep fighting wathever,the guy you are defending he throwed games for money,he was banned from TSL. ironic right ? ^^
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On August 18 2015 01:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
the problem with a new interface is the community disagreements .
there will always be disagreements about anything new and its usually only the small subset of gamers who will be vocal/complains, the rest are actually fine with it.
thanks for linking an obvious joke vid to prove your point.
yeah some games are not meant for certain interfaces but that does not mean the game will simply end because its input interface becomes obsolete. New interfaces that is beyond our imagination might be invented in the future to adopt old games easily. games that are fundamentally fun/innovative will always be fondly remembered and adopted in the future when people grew bored by the crappy sc10 that requires no macro/thought, full of pay2win nonsense and only30 apm needed to play like a pro.
some idiots complain but who cares? the people who actually understand what the original game is about and care will continue to cherish and support the legacy games irregardless of opinions, they dont need some kid internet troll to tell them what to like or dont like
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On August 18 2015 01:35 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... .
now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ?
now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_- That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
ubject: Re: Teambattle Final Details
Date: 8/15/14 18:19
Yeah, sure! Bisudagger will be doing a cast from replays a couple of hours afterwards, too.
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I have no words for this. At least you should've waited for the official thread to do this. You are spoiling a decision they wanted to tell later. What are you doing?. Also you are saying a lot of things that are not true, we would be playing this tournaments even if there was no prize pool, we have proof of it as we still play the game, do you remember when last tls was? And why are you pointing with your finger a player that has been contributing to the game and community more than you, scan and me altogheter?You only show once again that you don't have any idea of the real circumstances.
Comparing eon and scan contributions to foreigner bw is a really bad joke.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Still doesn't give your excuse to go for a lop sided drone drool into 2 cannons
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Bisutopia19142 Posts
On August 18 2015 02:01 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 01:35 BisuDagger wrote:On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... .
now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ?
now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_- That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events. ubject: Re: Teambattle Final Details Date: 8/15/14 18:19 Yeah, sure! Bisudagger will be doing a cast from replays a couple of hours afterwards, too.
I don't think I actually casted that. The intention may have been there, but I honestly don't remember that lol!
edit: I just saw your post before this quoted one. I def remember having talks with forcewater and may have been a part of that. My mind is crap if it has nothing to do with programming these days. xD!
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Many of the posts (including the ones by Eon and XKCD) were driven by the emotions and are over the top. It's easy to be rude on the forums when you don't observe the reactions in real time and your normal psychology just doesn't apply. I'm sure we're not like that irl. I'm more than positive that everyone respects everyone else here, let's just cool down.
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On August 18 2015 01:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 20:47 GeckoXp wrote:On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion. While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here. The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried. Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment. Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare. Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do. you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there. However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops. I actually didn't realize that, I thought there was a period of time where he lived in korea between 2008 and 2015. Honestly, if that's not the case, then I think my argument is slightly weaker/ it has to be slightly altered to focus on 'professional environment available to him' or something.
How wasn't that the case for anyone else? Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university. Because, basically, that's what he did - move away and still invest a large amount of his life on something he seems to love. I hope you realize how incredibly paradox arguements like these are. It's even worse if it's exaggerated so much people start to flame the shit out of him for playing BW. On stream. On a Brood War page. Whose majority just watches streams.
The amount of irony in these topics gets to me, I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's people with 20games/day calling someone with 25games/day a nolifer, it's """organizers""" giving tipps to admins, it's people with a thread full of BM reports calling posts insulting, it's inactive players threatening with continued inactivity, it's people with rather questionable English discussing semantic errors, and above all else, it's not even fun. When it's about a computer game. People just try to hate each other more than the rest, so you can claim you "love" the game more than anyone else. Or very sophisticated satire I do not understand. If that's the case, sorry...
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On August 18 2015 02:39 amazingxkcd wrote:
Still doesn't give your excuse to go for a lop sided drone drool into 2 cannons
OMH MY GOD, THE DRONES ARE TO TRY CANCEL THE CANON and to force protoss to pull probes.no doubt you have no clue what happen in games you are not even D rank but Z
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On August 18 2015 02:57 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 01:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 17 2015 20:47 GeckoXp wrote:On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion. While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here. The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried. Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment. Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare. Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do. you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there. However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops. I actually didn't realize that, I thought there was a period of time where he lived in korea between 2008 and 2015. Honestly, if that's not the case, then I think my argument is slightly weaker/ it has to be slightly altered to focus on 'professional environment available to him' or something. How wasn't that the case for anyone else? Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university. Because, basically, that's what he did - move away and still invest a large amount of his life on something he seems to love. I hope you realize how incredibly paradox arguements like these are. It's even worse if it's exaggerated so much people start to flame the shit out of him for playing BW. On stream. On a Brood War page. Whose majority just watches streams. The amount of irony in these topics gets to me, I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's people with 20games/day calling someone with 25games/day a nolifer, it's """organizers""" giving tipps to admins, it's people with a thread full of BM reports calling posts insulting, it's inactive players threatening with continued inactivity, it's people with rather questionable English discussing semantic errors, and above all else, it's not even fun. When it's about a computer game. People just try to hate each other more than the rest, so you can claim you "love" the game more than anyone else. Or very sophisticated satire I do not understand. If that's the case, sorry...
People just try to hate each other more than the rest
You should know, you're an expert at this. Also, for holding grudges. Yet... You talk about irony.
This topic overall serves no purpose aside from fuel a fire that doesn't need any help. I think the OP needs to correct itself, this is one of MANY reasons why Brood War has been in a steady decline.
+ Show Spoiler +No, there is no irony in my post, because I don't absolve myself of blame
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On the one hand, I have no personal qualms with Scan being part of our events. On the other hand, I understand exactly where the players complaints are coming from.
Who here remembers WCG? It was definitely an event where WCG Korea was what really mattered, and where WCG Worlds was essentially just a farce. Foreign players that match up against the three Korean representatives just get tossed aside with close to zero chance of winning. And imagine how much it sucks to put in the effort to be the best in your country, only to go to an event that basically says, "ok ur adorable, but ur never going to win so glhf playing for silver/4th place." And don't get me started on if you just happen to get matched against one of those top tier players and just drop out early even if you're better than everyone else in that event. That's what happens when you put in a player that's out of everybody's league into a tournament.
Scan is no more of a "foreigner" than Jaedong, who joined a foreign team and travels the world to attend games. Our own players are not wrong in feeling that Scan has means of improving that are closed to them. Whether or not that's reason enough to exclude him from tournaments, I'd rather not be the one to make that call.
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What we need is a collab between psychologists and sociologists to write a paper on the reflexive and bipolar nature of the SC community. Saying that someone is killing Starcraft kills Starcraft and so I'll accuse certain people of killing Starcraft, thus killing Starcraft.
At the end of the day, Starcraft is entirely capable of dying out on its own and I don't think that the toxicity is coming out of no where, it has a source in the context. I for one don't believe that negativity is the cause of SCBW's decline, the causal link is the other way around. SCBW is declining naturally during the convergence of its various enemies: new OSes which don't properly support it, its fall into obsolescence in a world where simple and user friendliness becomes the norm, among other things. The toxicity is the result of this decline, and perhaps it expedites the process but it's not causing it.
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On August 18 2015 01:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote:
agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion. Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share my opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
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On August 18 2015 03:41 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 01:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote:
agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion. Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk .. you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share my opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
as i said dont speak with bakuryu.
Sziky is the best player we have in foreign community and is still mission impossible to take a bo5 series zvt,if scan offraces score 2-2 maybe in the game 5 is still possible to win if scan has a bad day.
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EPT
