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On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote:
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
-.- I did not toss around such words "evil corrupt assholes" Obviously none of you stole any money or killed anyone or anything.like that.
As I said in the original post I respect the staff and I appreciate what the staff has been putting out for all these years. So don't read me as some raging idiot.
As mentioned I'm disagreeing with how the goals are presented. A scholarship fund for Latinos shouldn't go to an Asian. A scholarship fund for everyone can give money to anyone they want. And if you make exceptions you definitely don't get to call the resultant angry latinos "greedy" or ask them to work harder and still feel righteous about it.
I'm not demanding anything. I just couldn't stand how some of the staff are on a high horse and are disrespectful to the players in the foreign scene, whom they were supposed to support.
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On August 19 2015 15:41 Ty2 wrote:
I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
muh man
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On August 19 2015 14:31 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote:
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic. -.- I did not toss around such words "evil corrupt assholes" Obviously none of you stole any money or killed anyone or anything.like that. As I said in the original post I respect the staff and I appreciate what the staff has been putting out for all these years. So don't read me as some raging idiot. As mentioned I'm disagreeing with how the goals are presented. A scholarship fund for Latinos shouldn't go to an Asian. A scholarship fund for everyone can give money to anyone they want. And if you make exceptions you definitely don't get to call the resultant angry latinos "greedy" or ask them to work harder and still feel righteous about it. I'm not demanding anything. I just couldn't stand how some of the staff are on a high horse and are disrespectful to the players in the foreign scene, whom they were supposed to support.
As I said, I agree with the decision that's been made and I hope it'll make things better. But suggesting the impact of the cups on the foreigner scene so far has been neutral or even negative is just absurd. We've had plenty of people saying they came back for these cups and are excited to practice again and indeed we had some people saying they probably won't bother. We also had some who were originally discouraged but changed their minds. That's the support right there, open your eyes. Forget the staff but saying that all that money up for grabs is somehow a negative force just because a part of it may be going elsewhere and some people may get roflstomped along the way is insulting the sponsor.
Also, suggesting someone's (who's?) friendship with Scan clouded their judgement with nothing at all to back that up (please prove me wrong) is in my opinion an offence worth at least a temporary ban or something. Don't worry though I don't get off on reporting people. But think twice before posting random accusations like that. Questioning the integrity of people like 2pac is outrageous at best. Very uncool.
As for moral high ground, I'm not very familiar with the term and don't much care to learn more about it but I'll go ahead and say you're right and again I admit we made mistakes, me included.
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the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
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Sorry, wrong forum for me.
No
no one is killing sc!
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On August 19 2015 14:23 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 11:14 jeeeeohn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I can't believe people are frothing at the mouth about this. The rules are rules. If Scan is allowed to play, then Scan is allowed to play. That being said, if the decision wasn't unanimous among the members of TL admins, then you guys simply screwed up, and need to quickly come to a consensus and squash this stupid beef. You guys are responsible for setting up / formatting the tournaments, if there's some sort of issue with how the tournament is being run, the blame rests solely with you (as in, the corporate entity that is TL). Not the players. You. Either lay the law down and ban the dissenters from these tournaments and reinforce the "practice more" ethos, or ban Scan for being Korean. What needs to happen is an actual unanimous decision, not this endless cycle of bickering with no results. Honestly this whole thing casts a horrible light on the BW community and makes Team Liquid look like a Mickey Mouse operation. Stop being juvenile, act like professionals. Oh, and let it go. A hardline response to every form of disagreement is a great way to alienate people. Would you really like it if all of the top players who take exception to Scan being here chose not to participate in TLC as a form of protest? People who have strong contributions tend to have strong opinions on the matter, and you also might notice that the best players here (Eon, Technics, Draw, Telecom, and maybe Eriador) are basically of one opinion on the matter. Whether or not you agree, perhaps it's worth listening to what they might have to say on the topic? People have opinions. Silence those, and you won't have many people left. Do you really think that anyone cares about the prize pool? No, for these guys it's a chance to test their skills in a fun format with a small reward. Take away the motivation to play, and they won't - simple as that.
I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but nothing is ever accomplished in any organization without some measure of dialogue and consensus within the organization's leadership. The fact that so many people are up in arms about Scan playing, and that even some TL / BW admins are / were against it, means that this fundamental dialogue either didn't happen or wasn't carried through to its logical conclusion. I've even read opinions that state the rules were written specifically so Scan could play. Whether that's fact or fiction only the TL admins know.
Scan is the only Korean who's allowed to play in this so-called Foreigner tournament. There's a cost-analysis that needs to be done as damage control:
Who should we alienate? Unfortunately, that's what it's come down to. The tournament's format allowed for one Korean player to participate. No one wants to say it, but right now it's Every-Foreigner-Player vs One-Korean-Player.
Here are the solutions:
A) Ban Scan, apologize profusely, keep everyone else happy.
B) Tell people to quit their bitching and practice.
C) Allow anyone (including Koreans) to participate in subsequent tournaments.
My point is, whichever of those options happens, it needs to be a product of the TL admins forming a united front and making a unified decision. I.E. acting like professionals who are the mainstream face of Brood War. Stop airing dirty laundry, personal problems, keep it behind closed doors, make a decision, enforce that decision. Taking to the forums and blogging about it just makes TL look, again, like an amateurish Mickey Mouse operation. Do you think my restaurant manager goes on Facebook and posts publicly about other employees and how they made poor decisions? No: she handles it professionally on an individual, case-by-case basis, and sticks to her decisions. That's the right way to do things. This constant in-fighting is the wrong way to go about this.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Consensus among leadership staff is generally an illusion, one that any competent leadership team will work hard to maintain. It's also possible to make a bad call. On that front, the most you could really complain about is this blog post right here.
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Edit: On August 19 2015 23:32 LegalLord wrote:
Consensus among leadership staff is generally an illusion, one that any competent leadership team will work hard to maintain. It's also possible to make a bad call. On that front, the most you could really complain about is this blog post right here.
You're exactly right, maintaining an illusion of consensus is the sign of competent leadership. In this situation, there is no illusion, just a very public argument between admins.
Also, Brood War, if it's not going to die, will exist as a diminished shell of itself. It's perfectly natural. If you enjoy the game, keep playing it. If you don't enjoy the game, then don't.
For me, Starcraft (and SCII) just triggers the worst rage and self-loathing for me. I can log in every once and a while and play a couple of games, but gone are the days where I'll play for six+ hours straight.
The same thing happening to you happened to me, with the Stronghold community, which had a passionate-if-not-huge fanbase a while back. I was one of the best map makers, still featured on the top 100 maps. And then the community died. We all lamented it, but couldn't change it. Doesn't mean I won't play it ever again, but it'll never be as buzzing as it once was.
So, I'll refer to my first post:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 19 2015 15:50 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 14:31 JieXian wrote:On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote:
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic. -.- I did not toss around such words "evil corrupt assholes" Obviously none of you stole any money or killed anyone or anything.like that. As I said in the original post I respect the staff and I appreciate what the staff has been putting out for all these years. So don't read me as some raging idiot. As mentioned I'm disagreeing with how the goals are presented. A scholarship fund for Latinos shouldn't go to an Asian. A scholarship fund for everyone can give money to anyone they want. And if you make exceptions you definitely don't get to call the resultant angry latinos "greedy" or ask them to work harder and still feel righteous about it. I'm not demanding anything. I just couldn't stand how some of the staff are on a high horse and are disrespectful to the players in the foreign scene, whom they were supposed to support. As I said, I agree with the decision that's been made and I hope it'll make things better. But suggesting the impact of the cups on the foreigner scene so far has been neutral or even negative is just absurd. We've had plenty of people saying they came back for these cups and are excited to practice again and indeed we had some people saying they probably won't bother. We also had some who were originally discouraged but changed their minds. That's the support right there, open your eyes. Forget the staff but saying that all that money up for grabs is somehow a negative force just because a part of it may be going elsewhere and some people may get roflstomped along the way is insulting the sponsor. Also, suggesting someone's (who's?) friendship with Scan clouded their judgement with nothing at all to back that up (please prove me wrong) is in my opinion an offence worth at least a temporary ban or something. Don't worry though I don't get off on reporting people. But think twice before posting random accusations like that. Questioning the integrity of people like 2pac is outrageous at best. Very uncool. As for moral high ground, I'm not very familiar with the term and don't much care to learn more about it but I'll go ahead and say you're right and again I admit we made mistakes, me included.
But suggesting the impact of the cups on the foreigner scene so far has been neutral or even negative is just absurd.
Someone else might have made this point, but it wasn't me, because I too think that it's absurd.
My point about Scan wasn't what you think, basically you're "accepting him as a foreigner" because of his closeness to TL, which we can all agree on, which was what I meant by "buddy".
I was making a point about how you shouldn't be attacking the players objecting Scan's participation because the fact is you did make a special arrangement to include him.
I accept that you all are a lot more in touch with everything, and as mentioned in the first long post I do not doubt your sincerity and efforts in supporting the community. I attributed the condescending attitude to ego and emotions.
As mentioned in my post above, I am mainly arguing here because of the attitude of the staff (or some of them) towards the foreigners, and how they are sometimes dismissed for various reasons, from laziness to greed, resulting in them being dismissed as children when they are trying to talk. As someone who couldn't be dismissed for the same reasons, I felt that I had to say something.
If a blog post like this could be published, we can only imagine what is really being said and thought in private.
I am happy to hear that things should get better from a blog posts like the OP, and it seems that this blog post will be the lowest point in this TL event. Thank you.
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Canada11349 Posts
If a blog post like this could be published, we can only imagine what is really being said and thought in private.
Well don't imagine too much lest you become angry about words that were never said. This blog is the most aggressive post I've seen regarding the subject. Most of what was expressed behind the scenes, I would term as disappointment.
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On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote:
the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
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On August 20 2015 03:50 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote:
the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said, Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
haha good answer. I can promise, the transformation to hello Satan Island Adventure game is well underway. All our intention is still to make users miserable and to quit BW. Also Gecko is of course still on the team and making sure Eywa is treated very bad  With that beeing said, to important matters:
Happy Birthday Zaraki
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On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote:
the ego in this thread is ridiculous
the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy...
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
The ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is full of scrubs. Oxymoron no?
So you think everyone who is actually serious about StarCraft makes it a point to actually learn the Korean language, to escape iCCup? Or are you referring to the fact all the Koreans left iCCup?
First of all Foreigners shouldn't have to learn Korean in order to enjoy StarCraft, and any Korean would agree, I know because I am in Ever) on Fish and have been in a myriad of Korean clans on USWest and Fish. Koreans left iCCup because the ping was better on Brain / Fish, the maps were better, and it is easier for Koreans to communicate specifically only with other Koreans mainly because English is difficult for them.
Secondly it is people like you who portray this omniscient all knowing picture of yourself, when you really most likely know nothing about the Korean scene and you don't even play / practice BW yourself, do you?
If everyone else is a scrub and you are a pro, then make one logical attempt to disprove what I said is true.
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On August 20 2015 04:40 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote:
the ego in this thread is ridiculous
the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy...
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup First of all Foreigners shouldn't have to learn Korean in order to enjoy StarCraft, and any Korean would agree, I know because I am in Ever) on Fish and have been in a myriad of Korean clans on USWest and Fish. Koreans left iCCup because the ping was better on Brain / Fish, the maps were better,
isn't Patry still the only non-Korean world champ... he assimilated on his climb to the top... and its a big reason why he was able to compete with the best in the world.
good luck trying to be the best basketball player in the world without learning how to speak english.. or the best baseball player or the best... etc etc.
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On August 20 2015 04:40 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote:
the ego in this thread is ridiculous
the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy...
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup The ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is full of scrubs. Oxymoron no? So you think everyone who is actually serious about StarCraft makes it a point to actually learn the Korean language, to escape iCCup? Or are you referring to the fact all the Koreans left iCCup? First of all Foreigners shouldn't have to learn Korean in order to enjoy StarCraft, and any Korean would agree, I know because I am in Ever) on Fish and have been in a myriad of Korean clans on USWest and Fish. Koreans left iCCup because the ping was better on Brain / Fish, the maps were better, and it is easier for Koreans to communicate specifically only with other Koreans mainly because English is difficult for them. Secondly it is people like you who portray this omniscient all knowing picture of yourself, when you really most likely know nothing about the Korean scene and you don't even play / practice BW yourself, do you? If everyone else is a scrub and you are a pro, then make one logical attempt to disprove what I said is true.
i only play USW but i hang out in the korean channels, i don't go on fish.
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Take your scope back a little bit, and look at things from a more open-minded perspective.
Maybe these weekly tournaments are like the "e-sports" (God that term is so stupid) version of a local street basketball tournament, and Scan coming in is like Lebron James coming in. This would very rarely happen in basketball, but in starcraft it's pretty common cuz Internet, so I'd take that into consideration when tournament organizers put up fences.
So for example
Scenario: Weekly Tournament Shenanigans
Priority: Growth of Starcraft High Priority. Here, take antithesis after transposing "kill" into "hurt" to simplify things and not be a nipicky word-doucher (i.e. don't ask: "Will Scan winning this weekly every week kill starcraft?" Yes, that's the arithmetic the OP worked out when he resorted to title clickbait, but assume the best case argument, don't be a dick)
Lebron winning this weekly every week is better for growth of starcraft? Yes/No (I'm using the term "Lebron" as defined above because it doesn't have to be Scan winning)
Less skilled players winning this weekly every week is better for growth of starcraft? Yes/No (Less skilled than Lebron, as in LebronBBanned)
EITHER of these outcomes could be true, and it's not always the one you think. America's future president Donald Trump is using controversial remarks to stay relevant in the media, and you would think that that wouldn't work. However, due to a bunch of factors, that works nowadays. You can build whole cash cows out of it that make money off haters (Justin Bieber is a good example of this concept). To bring it closer to home, I had no freaking idea what the name of this tournament was until this "controversy" about Scan arose. (I still don't; come on tourney organizers, you've got an 8 page thread, do something with it! Getting banned from YOUR tournament could start to become the first step in any aspiring player's career!)
If you want to talk about "growth," "decay," or any abstract concept, you need to be prepared in your thought processes. It's not going to be easy, but it sounds like you're too busy worrying about whether something is "wrong" or "right" to get there. Remember, there's always more than one way to enjoy a game ohmygershmetaphor.
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Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
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On August 20 2015 10:16 ninazerg wrote:
Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
when someone non-Korean accomplishes what Patry did without assimilating.. lemme know.
a basketball player must play in the NCAA or NBA and learn to communicate in english to be near the best in the world.
a female hockey player can only reach world class status by playing in NA and conversing in either english or french... there is nothing in women's hockey that comes anything close to the level of pro competition for the Clarkson Cup... and for amateur play nothing is close to the NCAA.
if u want to be the best female hockey player u must go to NA and assimilate.. u want to be the best starcraft player u must go to korea and assimilate.. Like the Clarkson Cup for women's hockey.. nothing comes close to the GSL... and its in Korea.
who says life is fair? i'm just talking about what it takes to be the best.
being immersed within the best competition forces you to raise your game.
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EPT
