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On August 18 2015 21:49 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 20:58 JieXian wrote:
This "gotcha" post was highly inappropriate, but in the end it is proof of the attitude of the staff toward this matter, which they have been denying in the past. It's only one member coming out but it is apparent that he isn't alone based on the other posts.
Someone who is truly objective, less egotistical and more level headed would've at least talked to eon before making a "gotcha" post.
On the bright side, I enjoyed watching the advokate game and there were a few good posts.
You shouldn't call it a foreigner tournament hosted to help the foreigner scene and then call a foreigner greedy/unwilling to practise/selfish for wanting it to be a foreigner tournament in the first place.
Remember, the most hyprocritical thing here is the organisers making an exception a non-foreigner in for being a good buddy to the foreigners, and then talking as if the foreigners are being insubordinate and ungrateful for not being cool about that exception.
- Letting a man play in WNBA is wrong if you still want to call it WNBA, no matter how much the man has helped women basketball.
- Letting a pro compete in the NCAA is wrong if you still want to call it a college basketball tournament, no matter how much the pro has contributed to the scene.
- Using cancer donations for funding polio vaccines is wrong if you still want to advertise yourself as a cancer fund, no matter how many more utilitarian lives you think you can save with the same amount of money spent on cancer research.
All of it is made worse if you then call the said women, college basketball players and the cancer researchers greedy, selfish, asking them to work harder, celebrating a "gotcha" moment when the said women, college basketball players or cancer researchers made an apparent blunder. Worse of all, is the outburst and attempt at satire
"The attitude you women have disgusts me I am trying to help you."
"You are making a mockery out of the NCAA"
"You are killing cancer research yourself. Sickening."
Please remember, you have lost the moral high ground when you have made an exception and bent your main premise to fit that exception for, no matter the justifications.
Your post makes me angry for two reasons. First, I don't like how you twist Amazingxkcd's blog into something it is not. His blog does not represent the staff or the organizers but expresses his personal opinion. He even explicitly noted: "this article is the expressed opinion of Amazingxkcd only and does not constitute to be the official opinion of Teamliquid.net, its staff, or any of its constituent"Reproaches like can prevent people to express their opinions freely because people mistake their opinions for that of the whole team/organization they happen to be part of. Forums are made to discuss things. Second, who are you to tell others they have lost moral ground? You accuse the admins to not be neutral but to be akin to favoritism. What the fk? They tried their best to have rules that do not exclude anyone who is PART OF THE FOREIGNER scene. And Scan is part of our scene.
1) I was also including the other posts from the staff in the other topics.
2)dont be angry because you didn't comprehend my stand.
Basically I'm happy with scan playing as long as they didn't pretend to be supporting foreigners.
Then again I guess things change once it's defined by a foreign SCENE instead.
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So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
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On August 18 2015 04:54 BulgarianToss wrote:
@Cele
You do realise that since we are the better players we understand the game better and for that reason we can give you a better insight into the problems we face playing against Scan. Do you guys really think we care about the stupid 50$ and bother to write huge posts only because we are greedy assholes? Can you stop for one second and think clearly that the reason is obviously something more and it is simple - the fact that his participation is biased and unfair and it produces in-game problems that happen to favour him even more on our level of play.
i realize that. However you are comparing two different things. If we are talking about actual ingame stuff, i will gladly listen to all players who are better then me. But in this case, we are not talking about ingame stuff, we are talking about an issue that falls into the duties of Tournament Organizers and Tournament Admins. There is a very good reason a decision like this should be made by TO's and not by players, let me elaborate:
In football, who decides if a penalty is given? Do the players decide? No. THe referees decide. You could argue that Ronaldo or Messi play better football then the referee and should thus decide if a penalty is given. There are two good reasons they should not:
a) players are biased: this is not meant to insult or disrespect, but in a situation that affects your game, you want the best for you (ban scan) and not the best for the tournament itself as a whole. Messi doesn't get to decide if he was fouled and a penalty should be given because he is biased. A referee on the other hand is impartial and decides to the best of his abilities and training. Sadly, there is no "training" for tournament organizers, but a good TO has a lot of experience in this matters and this gives him a good lookout on the problem
b) a decision made by players can not be respected as impartial: Kind of continues my argument, but if players decide if scan should play or not, to the viewer/other players this tour loses credibility, because it feels like the decision is made for one's own good.
Of course a good TO ask's top players about their opinion on some matters, for instance the TO could have asked players about paranoid android in the first place, but they don't blindly follow their opinion. If i ask a top foreigner   and  about map XY i get three different answers.
Closing or analogy, what is happening in this drama is this: the referee has given a penalty and players (not all, but many) start swarming him, cursing him. Instead of handing out red cards, he changes his decision. This is wrong on two levels: First, these players clearly don't respect the TO's and admins, which is a basic principle of every sport. Secondly it's unfair to Scan. you upset players are many, he is alone. Just that you are more, doesn't make your point right, if he starts complaining now if he get's banned, his voice will not be heard/whouted down.
Every sport needs impartial persons, who make difficult decisions. Accepting those decisions is the first ground rule of competition, you guys seem to have forgotten that.
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On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote:
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
If you do this then we need consider what exactly a member of tl community means,have a tl account?make threads about afreeca/ sc2 / counter strike or fitness section? Post in a active weekly basis? If this is the case you can keep scan with traslations and ban all the rest of the players since very few actually care to do things i noted. So stratos what it is? If the only you need is to create a tl account im pretty sure you can recruit some korean gosus right?
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@Cele
I understand where you're coming from, and I mostly agree that the players should respect official decisions, but there are several problems with that.
The foreign BW scene has never operated as such and this has never been said about any decision that's been disrespected in the past.
Also, it's not about the money, it's about getting crushed by someone who you feel shouldn't even be in the event. This type of drama happened in DRTL and DRIT, no one was playing for money (I was one of the biggest advocates for either calling it D/C ranks TL or removing the C- ++ from the tour). - On the other hand, your example about Messi ~ It's all about the money.
Korean BW has the "our way or the highway", but they can do that (at least in the past) because they actually have the funding to back it and the players to replace the current ones with.
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On August 18 2015 22:22 Cele wrote:
doublepost
Football is a bad example to represent the problem we have here,as u see one of the guys that was part of this project called me moron and other insults also promoting i was throwing matches cuz his bw lvl is so bad that he doesnt understand anything in the game, to be a referee u need to know the book rules and the ground rules,is not the case here, and football is a terrible example.
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On August 18 2015 22:34 Eywa- wrote:
@Cele
I understand where you're coming from, and I mostly agree that the players should respect official decisions, but there are several problems with that.
The foreign BW scene has never operated as such and this has never been said about any decision that's been disrespected in the past.
Also, it's not about the money, it's about getting crushed by someone who you feel shouldn't even be in the event. This type of drama happened in DRTL and DRIT, no one was playing for money (I was one of the biggest advocates for either calling it D/C ranks TL or removing the C- ++ from the tour). - On the other hand, your example about Messi ~ It's all about the money.
Korean BW has the "our way or the highway", but they can do that (at least in the past) because they actually have the funding to back it and the players to replace the current ones with.
i wasn't talking money, money adds to the problem but you also need referees at amateur level sports. Some ingame decisions are controversial and you need an impartial person who is respected to settle those, in short a referee. It's a problem of foreign bw this isn't recognized this way i agree.
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On August 18 2015 11:00 dRaW wrote:
Also, I know that nobody really reads these posts and everyone just waits their turn to write something nonsensical but I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
Maybe talk with ICCup.Face as he organizes the A/B tours and showmatches with casters and it could be good for them.
I don't think co-casting is really necessary, though it does help. If you look at past examples... Both L_Master and Hacklebeast would be as popular (or nearly) as Sayle right now if they had kept casting consistently. Unfortunately, neither of them do. Unfortunately, recently, there has been a lack of events to really allow that to happen again, but if more events come up, casters just need to show the passion and dedication that Sayle did when he was starting. Does anyone remember the ISL1 marathon casts? Did Sayle even sleep on those weekends? There are other examples (Nation Wars) that were like 14 hrs + in one cast... I'm not sure how many people are willing to do that and how many people actually want to develop into that status of caster. It requires a lot of work to build that and maintain it.
It also helped that Sayle streamed his ladder games and that he was able to improve at ladder over the course of that stream. So, if anyone has the dedication to do this, I have no doubt they'll gain that popularity, it's just really hard to find... More so than the opportunities to cast are.
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On August 18 2015 22:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Football is a bad example to represent the problem we have here,as u see one of the guys that was part of this project called me moron and other insults also promoting i was throwing matches cuz his bw lvl is so bad that he doesnt understand anything in the game, to be a referee u need to know the book rules and the ground rules,is not the case here, and football is a terrible example.
If we leave XKCD and his rage blog here out, all the TO'S have shown what you ask for i think. they know what they do and why. You do not agree, but as i pointed out decisions are not made by players for a good reason. I was explaining to wallace, why i think the argument "you are bad at Starcraft, you should shut up" is not a good argument. He and you don't post that way, but many people do. And one should listen when top players teach about ingame stuff, but this case is different as i explained.
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On August 18 2015 22:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote:
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic. If you do this then we need consider what exactly a member of tl community means,have a tl account?make threads about afreeca/ sc2 / counter strike or fitness section? Post in a active weekly basis? If this is the case you can keep scan with traslations and ban all the rest of the players since very few actually care to do things i noted. So stratos what it is? If the only you need is to create a tl account im pretty sure you can recruit some korean gosus right?
Okay close your eyes. Take a deep breath. Think about what makes up a member of our foreigner BW community (TL, Iccup, psistorm, reps.ru, defiler etc.) apart from one's nationality. Somewhere apparently deep inside, we all know what that is and we all know Scan fits that. He's the exemplary average TL member with some contributions to his name.
Yes, recruiting a few korean gosus would probably not be very difficult. But hey, I'm not aware of any that are part of our community - if they were, I wouldn't need to go recruit them, right? Should any chose to join our ranks then sure, I would see them in the same way I see Scan, as another TLer. But I can't fathom a reason for which I should go hunt on fish to make sure you're not upset that you're being beaten by Scan only instead of 5 extra random fish users. I guess everyone has their fantasies but I'm into other stuff  (kimchi)
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On August 18 2015 23:12 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 22:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote:
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic. If you do this then we need consider what exactly a member of tl community means,have a tl account?make threads about afreeca/ sc2 / counter strike or fitness section? Post in a active weekly basis? If this is the case you can keep scan with traslations and ban all the rest of the players since very few actually care to do things i noted. So stratos what it is? If the only you need is to create a tl account im pretty sure you can recruit some korean gosus right? Okay close your eyes. Take a deep breath. Think about what makes up a member of our foreigner BW community (TL, Iccup, psistorm, reps.ru, defiler etc.) apart from one's nationality. Somewhere apparently deep inside, we all know what that is and we all know Scan fits that. He's the exemplary average TL member with some contributions to his name. Yes, recruiting a few korean gosus would probably not be very difficult. But hey, I'm not aware of any that are part of our community - if they were, I wouldn't need to go recruit them, right? Should any chose to join our ranks then sure, I would see them in the same way I see Scan, as another TLer. But I can't fathom a reason for which I should go hunt on fish to make sure you're not upset that you're being beaten by Scan only instead of 5 extra random fish users. I guess everyone has their fantasies but I'm into other stuff (kimchi)
Stratos are you the mind behind all this ?,first it was a foreigner tournament,then changed the rules to allow Scan,now u talking about Tl community all of sudden i asked you what it means u instantly added every bw community left,so tell me if iccup is also part of this why the koreans in iccup playing showmatches for us the foreigners arent allowed to play in TLS ?i saw mvpwisdom asking in The Legacy channel and the answer was that it was a tournament for foreigners,this is all so complex that is better just to stop lol....
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I don't find the situation very complex but I will admit I'm not even sure what you're asking. As for other Koreans asking to play in the tour, just refer to the rules as you would otherwise. Who knows, maybe if they stated their case, they'd be allowed in. If all they do is join the legacy channel to ask like that then you can hardly give them a better answer.
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On August 18 2015 23:22 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
first it was a foreigner tournament,then changed the rules to allow Scan,now u talking about Tl community all of sudden i asked you what it means u instantly added every bw community left,so tell me if iccup is also part of this why the koreans in iccup playing showmatches for us the foreigners arent allowed to play in TLS ?i saw mvpwisdom asking in The Legacy channel and the answer was that it was a tournament for foreigners,this is all so complex that is better just to stop lol....
Do you have any evidence that supports that? It has always been a foreigner tournament AND non-foreigners who have contributed to the foreign scene/are part of it.
You make it look like they adjusted the rules after they had announced the details/the cups to let Scan play. That is not the case. They simply tried to formulate rules that did not exclude anybody who is part of us.
And concerning Stratos' post, I think you didn't understand it correctly.
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The idea of excluding some players from tournaments because they are "unfairly good" is just wrong. There is no way to make the issues it brings go away. Even though in SC2 the Korean-foreigner gap is not as huge as in BW, it is still pretty... gaping, so people try the same thing and it only results in silly situations and arguments. So I am not very surprised that the BW scene suffers from the same problems.
The only way where you can reasonably forbid someone from competing for being too good is when you promote him to a higher league. Anything else is just taking competition and making it scripted entertainment like wrestling. Of course, you can pretend that it is still a competition, but you need to make up heaps of rules over other rules, so that you get to pick players that you want to have, but that doesn't make it any different. The posts where people evaluate other people on their actions and life choices to decalre them "sufficiently foreign" just make me sick - that has not only nothing to do with real competition, it is also just morally wrong (it really resembles the "personality checks" we had during communist dictatorship).
I used to have in my quote something along the lines of "do you want foreigner tournaments without koreans, or world without borders" and I stand by it. Judging people based on their race, nationality or even personal history is plan wrong and should be avoided at any circumstances.
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Canada11410 Posts
In other news, I certainly like the idea of building up other casters. The difficulty is find that magical intersection of time and willingness, combined with solid bw knowledge and either a natural or developed caster's flow.
I also very much enjoyed L_master's casting, but I think it has been a long time sinse he has had the time (or perhaps urge) to cast consistently. It's a very demanding activity, so it's more surprising that we have workhorse Sayle, than that we don't have a whole bunch of Sayle's in the community, as he seems to be the exception.
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On August 19 2015 02:44 Falling wrote:
In other news, I certainly like the idea of building up other casters. The difficulty is find that magical intersection of time and willingness, combined with solid bw knowledge and either a natural or developed caster's flow.
Sayle was terrible at casting when he first started. Not polished as a caster of course, but also pretty poor knowledge of BW and made cringeworthy errors, i.e. mistaking the coach of a team for another team's coach. He improved a lot before he became the top BW caster of today's era, which is to say that dedication trumps skill here. Anyone who is dedicated enough to cast often and improve their gameplay will become a good caster eventually.
I see potential in maybe 5-6 of our semi-regulars, if only they were to become regulars.
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the Dagon Knight4010 Posts
On August 19 2015 03:15 LegalLord wrote:
I see potential in maybe 5-6 of our semi-regulars, if only they were to become regulars.
I will dedicate myself to this above all else.
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On August 19 2015 02:44 Falling wrote:
In other news, I certainly like the idea of building up other casters. The difficulty is find that magical intersection of time and willingness, combined with solid bw knowledge and either a natural or developed caster's flow.
I also very much enjoyed L_master's casting, but I think it has been a long time sense he has had the time (or perhaps urge) to cast consistently. It's a very demanding activity, so it's more surprising that we have workhorse Sayle, than that we don't have a whole bunch of Sayle's in the community, as he seems to be the exception.
Pretty much this. Casting is a heavy time commitment, especially with regular tours. That's easily a minimum of 3-4 hours per cast, with the potential to be much longer.
I'd love to cast more/consistently, but throw in working full time, 20 hours a week of cycling, and then some studying and it's hard to find time for consistent casting, especially with a variable schedule.
That said, I do hope to cast more than I have over the last year...which is basically not at all.
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On August 18 2015 15:55 dRaW wrote:
Nina let me tell you something...
You suck at brood war.
You don't understand the game.
You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win.
Check those games Sziky vs Scan, he played OFF-RACE against Sziky and STILL wins. Show me 15 ZvT where Sziky beats Scan, I want to see them.
I really don't think I should've expected any less than a completely petulantly immature reply, because you're spilling your personal vitriol into an argument where you completely bungled your original post to me by glossing over my post.
I actually will make a small replay pack. I've already watched a bunch of ZvT games from Defiler where Sziky, does in fact, win. There is some ZvZ, but Sziky wins a majority of those. Unfortunately, because of broken links in Defiler Tours 11, 16, and 69, broken links on GG.net, and the fact that Scan only uploads his wins in 3-1 series' means you probably won't get as much masturbation material as you'd like.
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EPT
