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My Perspective on ＤｏｔＡ ２ - Page 18
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spudde123
4814 Posts
It starts at 1h30m15s in case the time stamp doesn't work. | ||
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Firstworldproblems
Chile1 Post
I am a South American player. My business here is not bashing you or contradict many of your points stated in the thread. You have a right for being mad and its totaly legit and I respect that. Tournaments here in this region dont even exist at the scale you guys get to play (as constant as you say you do) and prize pools are miserable. Example: 1st place $500 and nothing for the rest in a week tournament. Most people including the US and Europe dont even have the chance of getting into a plane. Not even one with infinite stops. Culture in south america is years away from the first world countries or regions such as NA or EU. Im not saying that we are starbing, I dont want you to think Im some kind of caretaker for the poor. Cause we are not, we do have pcs, good internet conections and pretty much the same technology anyone can get. My point is: In 4 years not a single s.a. team has get as far as Not Today did in the last Summit (I am not perubian btw) and they got crushed. We are in a different lvl and I believe the point of doing a large amount of tournaments (during this year and prob next as you say) is to see more people in participate in it. In a few lines, what you might consider a bad plane trip, a bad schedule, a bad prizepool (15k 1st place) is 15 or more times better than living in this situation, where we are 4 years late, 4 years unexperienced late. Im not saying you should be confortable with what you've acomplished, you always have to aim higher. But just consider that whether you like it or not, you (the pros) are a minority and the game is ment to be played by everyone. Im really sorry if anything I say here will get you even madder. Im just trying to state a point and my only intention is for you to consider it and learn from this reality. Im sorry for the bad english, again, this is one of the million things that are hard to learn here. Andy | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On December 17 2014 10:46 PsionicLord wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with you. The hype for TI2 and TI3 were so real but it has since dropped off since then... Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope. The hype for TI4 was IMMENSE. It just stumbled in a couple of areas and had a very disappointing final. But don't act like there was not a huge surge of excitement for it; that just isn't true. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 17 2014 11:50 FHDH wrote: Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope. The hype for TI4 was IMMENSE. It just stumbled in a couple of areas and had a very disappointing final. But don't act like there was not a huge surge of excitement for it; that just isn't true. Tbh I think this is a pretty knew thing, and viewers may feel like there's been a lot of similar events for a long time when in reality the situation hasn't been like this for all that long. Just last year there were high tier teams playing Joindota's Eizo Cups or whatever to compete for 1k and to get some decent competitive games. There were a bunch of online leagues that actually had some sort of prestige because there were not that many LANs. Not surprising that in a situation like this the hype for TI would be huge as well. After MLG showed what can be done with crowd funding, the amount of tournaments that try to do the same thing has grown. Every organizer wants the top teams in their event. There is no clear distinction between a lot of events, where some events would really be profiled as the majors and some others as medium tier events with some top teams and some other teams getting a chance, and the rest being where purely t2 teams compete. As a player there are the TI concerns that EE brought up, but also you don't know which tournaments will be well run, you don't know how high the prize pool will get in each tournament because of crowd funding, etc. Although some people shout that "just don't play as many events", making the choices is not all that simple in the current situation. TI is still so far above everything that I think the hype for TI5 will be huge once again, but I do feel that the excitement for a lot of these events recently is a bit lacking. | ||
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Churrass
573 Posts
On December 17 2014 11:50 FHDH wrote: Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope. The hype for TI4 was IMMENSE. It just stumbled in a couple of areas and had a very disappointing final. But don't act like there was not a huge surge of excitement for it; that just isn't true. this revisionist shit about TI4 is disgusting everyone was excited as fuck to see DK/NB/IG/EG finals but VG ruined it hehe | ||
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Snerd
United States125 Posts
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
If they can't find the passion or the motivation to try their hardest in every tournament, they should play selectively and let t2 teams have a chance to shine - think BU, Leviathan, HR. This way they can try their hardest in the remaining games they are playing and convince themselves that they need to go all out, and they can also spend more time watching replays, having a break etc. Having more tournaments ALWAYS benefit the rest of the scene, the top teams need to stop thinking solely from their perspective and decline invites if they feel they can't play in all of them instead of requesting organizers to cater only to them. | ||
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gulati
United States2241 Posts
bring back china as a titan powerhouse, and bring back the passion and hype from a western team beating them. that'll spark interest right away. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
the top teams need to stop thinking solely from their perspective Yep. Reducing the number of tournaments is a benefit to a very small number of players. | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
On December 17 2014 14:21 gulati wrote: i think the issue is the west is now tied with the east in terms of skill. there's no more of that "china vs. the world" mentality. especially since china isnt in any tournaments anymore except Ti basically bring back china as a titan powerhouse, and bring back the passion and hype from a western team beating them. that'll spark interest right away. What? This is.. like 8 kinds of absurd. At TI4 only the Chinese teams managed to eliminate other Chinese teams. Of the top 6, 4 of them were Chinese. Also we're seeing more of China than we have ever before. 2014 has been nothing but tournaments where we get the best teams we can. China not coming to Dreamhack and Starladder doesn't mean much at all as they still went to ESL and The Summit. I imagine next season will be similar with Chinese teams (read: Vici/Newbee) coming over to the big lans and playing against the best of the West. I mean seriously... what are you on about? | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 17 2014 13:56 Oktyabr wrote: The issue isn't that there's too many tournaments; it's that pro teams want to compete in every tournament out there. They brought this fatigue on themselves, and tbh it's clear by now that top teams like secret, eg and c9 would be invited to TI5 anyway. It's a pretty lame excuse to say that they can't afford to not play in every single tournament in order to prove that they deserved an invite for TI - c9 got their invite last year with only a few top finishes. If they can't find the passion or the motivation to try their hardest in every tournament, they should play selectively and let t2 teams have a chance to shine - think BU, Leviathan, HR. This way they can try their hardest in the remaining games they are playing and convince themselves that they need to go all out, and they can also spend more time watching replays, having a break etc. Having more tournaments ALWAYS benefit the rest of the scene, the top teams need to stop thinking solely from their perspective and decline invites if they feel they can't play in all of them instead of requesting organizers to cater only to them. It's not all about the perspective of EE and whoever else in his position, but the effect the current situation has on viewers is very real imo. It's not only "pro teams want to compete in every tournament out there", it's also that every tournament wants to have the same teams in their event. There are no real tiers of competition in dota, outside of TI which is above everything. This makes it hard to build hype around an individual event, when the next similar one is happening right around the corner. From the player perspective when you think about signing up, you don't know how the event will be as a lot of the events may have new organizers, new venues, whatever. You also don't know what the prize pool will be because of how tickets work. You will only find out much closer to the event. How do the teams make informed decisions in this sort of a situation? And if they do start dropping out, then we may have a stream of diluted events with 1-2 top teams with no clear "majors" outside of TI which the viewers can really enjoy. If we look at Dreamleague for example, a big number of people seemed to be very underwhelmed by even the LAN portion, just because "EG vs c9 final with EG winning was obvious from the start". It's not easy to make events that don't have all the top tier teams work. If the top teams don't play, viewership and interest in the event goes down heavily. Imo it's not as straightforward as "having more tournaments always benefits the rest of the scene", if the tournaments can't exist because they can't get the teams that bring all the hype to play. I'm not talking about small budget online leagues, but proper LAN tournaments with decent prize pools that in theory would allow more players to make a decent living out of the game. A key difference to a lot of other sports is that in dota you can essentially watch everything if you have the time. It's not like some other sport where you only get to see things live when it happens near your home town, and you may watch on tv whenever broadcasts are available to you, which isn't a daily thing at all in many sports. In dota there are LANs, and a huge amount of online games from different tournaments available day and night right in your home. By not having any sort of structure for the scene (where a few major events around the year are clearly separated so viewers know that these I want to watch and the rest I can skip), one is also assuming that viewers are able to pace themselves and not get bored by watching too much dota. | ||
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Shaella
United States14827 Posts
On December 17 2014 14:48 Jinxed wrote: What? This is.. like 8 kinds of absurd. At TI4 only the Chinese teams managed to eliminate other Chinese teams. Of the top 6, 4 of them were Chinese. Also we're seeing more of China than we have ever before. 2014 has been nothing but tournaments where we get the best teams we can. China not coming to Dreamhack and Starladder doesn't mean much at all as they still went to ESL and The Summit. I imagine next season will be similar with Chinese teams (read: Vici/Newbee) coming over to the big lans and playing against the best of the West. I mean seriously... what are you on about? yooooo there was one non chinese team that eliminated a chinese team Team Liquid.  | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
On December 17 2014 13:56 Oktyabr wrote: The issue isn't that there's too many tournaments; it's that pro teams want to compete in every tournament out there. They brought this fatigue on themselves, and tbh it's clear by now that top teams like secret, eg and c9 would be invited to TI5 anyway. It's a pretty lame excuse to say that they can't afford to not play in every single tournament in order to prove that they deserved an invite for TI - c9 got their invite last year with only a few top finishes. This is what I have been trying to say the whole time. If you enter more tournaments than you can handle, fatigue and schedule clashes will happen sooner or later | ||
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BongChambers
Canada591 Posts
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Neoattitude
Guam172 Posts
WAAHAAAHHH!!!! DOTA 2 IS GROWING TOO FAST!!!!! TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS!! But real talk though, I do agree with the casting feeling more casual than professional. And it really would be great for the tournament organizers to be more accommodating to the players. Players not worrying about out of game lan issues = better matches = MORE HYPE = better tournament = MORE HYPE = DOTA 2 growing. But then again, sounded like EE was complaining about Dota 2 growing to fast so... WAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! | ||
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VelJa
France1109 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:55 brown0317 wrote: I’m your fanboy from China. I didn’t miss any C9’s matches, no matter it begins at Mid-night or even later. For Instance, today I got up at 3:00 am and watched your DPL’s quarter-finals. However, what I saw was you picked a Storm spirit and performed like a Doraemon with a take copter. OK, never mind, even though you lost, I still support C9, but after reading your blog, I felt disappointed and wanted to say something. Firstly, it is no doubt to complain the tournaments are too much, but what is professional player? As a professional player, it is an obligation to join a tournament and present the most wonderful matches for our fans, but what you care about are your stream and 7K MMR. Secondly, you said we only care about tournaments’ item sets, but how can you let us support you guys after being tortured with a 122 minutes’ match. Moreover, teams’ boring draft is also a factor to affect viewers’ passion and sometimes casters’ quality. In WEC, I was amazed by your wrath king and Warlock, In Starladder 10, your amazing chaos and Fata’s Bristleback destroyed VP and EG respectively, but after that, I never saw such amazing pick again, every time is Puck, TB, and Brewmaster. Anyway, I do really hope C9 can win this times’ i league, I will cheer for you at the scene. EE, you should read it seriously. This guy create an acc to answer you.  | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On December 17 2014 15:14 spudde123 wrote: It's not all about the perspective of EE and whoever else in his position, but the effect the current situation has on viewers is very real imo. It's not only "pro teams want to compete in every tournament out there", it's also that every tournament wants to have the same teams in their event. There are no real tiers of competition in dota, outside of TI which is above everything. This makes it hard to build hype around an individual event, when the next similar one is happening right around the corner. From the player perspective when you think about signing up, you don't know how the event will be as a lot of the events may have new organizers, new venues, whatever. You also don't know what the prize pool will be because of how tickets work. You will only find out much closer to the event. How do the teams make informed decisions in this sort of a situation? And if they do start dropping out, then we may have a stream of diluted events with 1-2 top teams with no clear "majors" outside of TI which the viewers can really enjoy. If we look at Dreamleague for example, a big number of people seemed to be very underwhelmed by even the LAN portion, just because "EG vs c9 final with EG winning was obvious from the start". It's not easy to make events that don't have all the top tier teams work. If the top teams don't play, viewership and interest in the event goes down heavily. Imo it's not as straightforward as "having more tournaments always benefits the rest of the scene", if the tournaments can't exist because they can't get the teams that bring all the hype to play. I'm not talking about small budget online leagues, but proper LAN tournaments with decent prize pools that in theory would allow more players to make a decent living out of the game. A key difference to a lot of other sports is that in dota you can essentially watch everything if you have the time. It's not like some other sport where you only get to see things live when it happens near your home town, and you may watch on tv whenever broadcasts are available to you, which isn't a daily thing at all in many sports. In dota there are LANs, and a huge amount of online games from different tournaments available day and night right in your home. By not having any sort of structure for the scene (where a few major events around the year are clearly separated so viewers know that these I want to watch and the rest I can skip), one is also assuming that viewers are able to pace themselves and not get bored by watching too much dota. "it's also that every tournament wants to have the same teams in their event" That's why TOP teams actually have many choices when it comes to participation, and they can afford to be selective unlike tier 2 teams who have to slog through every qualifier just to get noticed. By virtue of invitation, they can also decline participation if they feel that their schedule it's packed. Top teams need to learn to manage themselves and work with the time they have. This is like some obese kid complaining that there's too much food on the table and he can't help himself from not eating because there is still some food that he hasn't tried yet. "You also don't know what the prize pool will be because of how tickets work. You will only find out much closer to the event. How do the teams make informed decisions in this sort of a situation? " There is always a base price pool to work with. Top teams are actually way more experienced when it comes to LAN events and I'm sure they're pretty familiar with the arrangements and distribution of the prize pool for recurring LAN events, especially those which has so many seasons already - D2L, D2CL, SL, DH, DL. "And if they do start dropping out, then we may have a stream of diluted events with 1-2 top teams with no clear "majors" outside of TI which the viewers can really enjoy." Would you rather have this situation or have every other event actually resembling TI so closely, so much so that the hype for the actual TI becomes meaningless? Again, the issue now is that virtually every event is similar in terms of participation from the top teams, and that viewers won't even look forward to the next C9/EG showdown since it happens too frequently. That period of qualifiers for DL had a ton of C9/VP games across different tournaments - how would you expect both teams to treat their games seriously when they're playing for so many different stakes within such a short time frame? Having lesser of such events isn't necessarily bad. "If the top teams don't play, viewership and interest in the event goes down heavily." The only logical conclusion that follows from this would be organizers seeing viewership or profits drop, and hence reduce the frequency of the tournaments they put up, pull out entirely, or cooperate to create an even bigger event. The scene would actually correct itself and reduce oversaturation. Isn't this the result they all want in the first place? My point is that there's never too much dota competitions to be held, regardless of whether they are LAN events or online leagues. You can bet that there are a ton of tier 2 teams out there who would try out for every qualifier just so that they can place decent and get noticed for TI. EE didn't have this gripe back when he was in Kaipi pre-TI3 when Valve didn't invite them for the qualifiers - he was dying for some way to prove his team worthy of at least being in the qualifiers. Top teams which have placed well up to the end of this year don't face this problem, and they definitely don't experience a lack of competitive dota to play. | ||
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nevermore86
United Kingdom108 Posts
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crayolalax
Australia27 Posts
I think there can never be too many tournaments but maybe too many tournaments with the same teams over and over without diversity of any upcoming teams which waters it down. TI4 was the first ever TI where it got to a point where I stopped caring about watching and just woke up to check results every day. I do still care for DotA but trying to keep up with all the results wore me out a lot. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On December 17 2014 15:53 WindWolf wrote: This is what I have been trying to say the whole time. If you enter more tournaments than you can handle, fatigue and schedule clashes will happen sooner or later If I was 95% likely to get invited to TI I think I would still enter every tournament just to close that 5% gap. It's not worth the risk. | ||
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