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On December 17 2014 05:49 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 05:26 FHDH wrote:I got to attend the Capcom Cup last weekend. It was really fantastic. I didn't realize it was going to be in SF (I live in the Bay) until a couple of weeks before it happened so I only got balcony seats - which were ~$7.50 with fees. It was fucking amazing. The fighting game community is awesome, the casters are great, the players are great, the competition is great. We had the best players from around the world sweating their balls off over a $50,000 prize pool. And I don't mean "ah man they were playing hard" I mean guys who have been competing for many years were observed to be totally on edge at this competition by other guys who have been competing for many years. Some of these guys have been competing since Artour and Jacky were in grade school - or even before they were born. At the end of the tournament it was announced that, in partnership with Sony (FULL SELLOUT MODE!!!!111) the prize pool for the next Capcom Cup was going to be $500k. Think about that in Dota2 terms and then understand that all of the top fighting pros were utterly floored. The Warfield went nuts. The thing is, taken individually, a lot of what Envy says here has merit. But as presented, and holistically, it comes off as a bunch of whining with no perspective. Oh, you want everything to be right all at once? Yes, you are definitely not being spoiled by the current state of the scene. There's just so much money in Dota2 right now, definitely no one has been front-loading losses or making major sacrifices to make these things happen so the players at the top who are even in a position to give a fuck how many people are in their hotel room can have these chances to compete. 10-year fighting pros would shit themselves for the kinds of conditions guys who have been professional Dota2 players for 2-3 years already have. And Dota teams that aren't on top? Well fuck their perspective, this is about how hard it is to be a top-tier team with no self-control right now. And what if there were fewer tournaments to enter, rather than just choosing to enter fewer tournaments? What then, suddenly you're not worried about bad placement for TI invites? No, it's the same shit. The only thing that changes is that there are fewer teams scoring top-three pots and keeping the dream alive. Speaking of professional casting can get Zyori and Xyclopz the fuck out of here. Xyclopz owns. I love the FGC and I agree with your overall sentiment, but you cannot say that Envy is whiney overall. Envy's the same guy who had the balls to post a public blog about going pro and then did it even as half the scene was flaming him saying there wasn't enough money and he was wasting his time. He tried his damn best to make it and he did. He's basically posting a blog that summarizes what all the top teams think but have not publicly said. Just look at what the top 5 teams in the world have done lately. As for the FGC comment, the FGC hates "esports" money and part of why they've remained small is that they've refused to take a lot of outside money. There's a ton of cultural and historic reasons as to why they aren't anything like the PC gaming community
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. The top five are the least of my concerns right now and they need to realize that the real danger to the Dota2 scene isn't their problems, but the problems of the next 20 teams.
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I used to watch a ton of pro dota. The best pro dota days for me was WDC 2010. The Yaphets blink raze show. Then all the TI obviously. Even TI 4 was pretty hype despite VG choking. RTZ in Kaipi days was fun. Who is this kid beating S4 and Dendi mid with 200 ping? Now days. I don't even watch any pro games outside of LAN finals. Nothing is happening, every team is playing the same meta. Same stuff happening over and over. Occasionally I watch some C9 game. (Thats coming from someone who has played and followed this game from 2005 dota 1). I rather play the game than watch now.
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On December 17 2014 04:51 hariooo wrote:
Well how often does Munich play Dortmund in a year? It's probably not dozens of times. And I promise you Schweinsteiger doesn't have to stress about if he should slum it for the chance to win a bit more prize money.
It's funny that you mention football, especially Munich. You do remember the "shitstorm" a few months back?
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On December 17 2014 05:53 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 05:49 bagels21 wrote:On December 17 2014 05:26 FHDH wrote:https://twitter.com/TheMaelk/status/544946864110731264I got to attend the Capcom Cup last weekend. It was really fantastic. I didn't realize it was going to be in SF (I live in the Bay) until a couple of weeks before it happened so I only got balcony seats - which were ~$7.50 with fees. It was fucking amazing. The fighting game community is awesome, the casters are great, the players are great, the competition is great. We had the best players from around the world sweating their balls off over a $50,000 prize pool. And I don't mean "ah man they were playing hard" I mean guys who have been competing for many years were observed to be totally on edge at this competition by other guys who have been competing for many years. Some of these guys have been competing since Artour and Jacky were in grade school - or even before they were born. At the end of the tournament it was announced that, in partnership with Sony (FULL SELLOUT MODE!!!!111) the prize pool for the next Capcom Cup was going to be $500k. Think about that in Dota2 terms and then understand that all of the top fighting pros were utterly floored. The Warfield went nuts. The thing is, taken individually, a lot of what Envy says here has merit. But as presented, and holistically, it comes off as a bunch of whining with no perspective. Oh, you want everything to be right all at once? Yes, you are definitely not being spoiled by the current state of the scene. There's just so much money in Dota2 right now, definitely no one has been front-loading losses or making major sacrifices to make these things happen so the players at the top who are even in a position to give a fuck how many people are in their hotel room can have these chances to compete. 10-year fighting pros would shit themselves for the kinds of conditions guys who have been professional Dota2 players for 2-3 years already have. And Dota teams that aren't on top? Well fuck their perspective, this is about how hard it is to be a top-tier team with no self-control right now. And what if there were fewer tournaments to enter, rather than just choosing to enter fewer tournaments? What then, suddenly you're not worried about bad placement for TI invites? No, it's the same shit. The only thing that changes is that there are fewer teams scoring top-three pots and keeping the dream alive. Speaking of professional casting can get Zyori and Xyclopz the fuck out of here. Xyclopz owns. I love the FGC and I agree with your overall sentiment, but you cannot say that Envy is whiney overall. Envy's the same guy who had the balls to post a public blog about going pro and then did it even as half the scene was flaming him saying there wasn't enough money and he was wasting his time. He tried his damn best to make it and he did. He's basically posting a blog that summarizes what all the top teams think but have not publicly said. Just look at what the top 5 teams in the world have done lately. As for the FGC comment, the FGC hates "esports" money and part of why they've remained small is that they've refused to take a lot of outside money. There's a ton of cultural and historic reasons as to why they aren't anything like the PC gaming community Yeah, I think that's exactly it. The top five are the least of my concerns right now and they need to realize that the real danger to the Dota2 scene isn't their problems, but the problems of the next 20 teams.
Until recently Na'Vi was a top 5 team too lol, but that's besides the point. In reality, the top5 matter because the bulk of the money, attention, and funding will be from the top 5 teams. This is how dota is and how it'll always be due to the instability of the next 20 as well as how casual fans attach themselves to teams and players.
The things EE point out to would actually help those next 20 teams as well (tournament structure, tournament support, how TI currently affects the proscene)
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Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
The casting situation I agree on. The casting at Dreamleague was atrocious. Waga and Draskyl did all they could to salvage the casting but overall it was next to unbearable. Half the time there was some 3k fool talking over them. Casters should not be drunk, especially when their grasp on dota 2 is shaky to begin with. Overall, I think there are some really great casters out there who don't get enough credit (Draskyl for example), and some really poor casters who need to reevaluate what their role in the dota 2 community is (Pyrion for example).
I hope teams and players start to realize that they are the ones most invested in this scene. Sure, I love DotA and think about it/play/watch it every day. But if DotA2 somehow disappeared tomorrow my life would continue mostly unharmed. If you think there are TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS then tell your management to avoid certain events. Don't sign up for starladder if it's going to kill your schedule and leave you exhausted. Let the tier 2 teams who are struggling to find tournaments and net results play in the more grueling events. It just seems so backwards to me that players are now starting to complain that theres TOO MUCH MONEY AND INTEREST in DotA2. Yea it's fucking messy, it's disorganized, it's chaotic but that's because there's been a boom in interest and money. Like damn, EE you came from almost nothing and now that you're near the top you forgot where you came from. Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
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On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
The casting situation I agree on. The casting at Dreamleague was atrocious. Waga and Draskyl did all they could to salvage the casting but overall it was next to unbearable. Half the time there was some 3k fool talking over them. Casters should not be drunk, especially when their grasp on dota 2 is shaky to begin with. Overall, I think there are some really great casters out there who don't get enough credit (Draskyl for example), and some really poor casters who need to reevaluate what their role in the dota 2 community is (Pyrion for example).
I hope teams and players start to realize that they are the ones most invested in this scene. Sure, I love DotA and think about it/play/watch it every day. But if DotA2 somehow disappeared tomorrow my life would continue mostly unharmed. If you think there are TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS then tell your management to avoid certain events. Don't sign up for starladder if it's going to kill your schedule and leave you exhausted. Let the tier 2 teams who are struggling to find tournaments and net results play in the more grueling events. It just seems so backwards to me that players are now starting to complain that theres TOO MUCH MONEY AND INTEREST in DotA2. Yea it's fucking messy, it's disorganized, it's chaotic but that's because there's been a boom in interest and money. Like damn, EE you came from almost nothing and now that you're near the top you forgot where you came from. Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
How do you plan out a schedule for tournaments you aren't sure you're going to the LAN for? Furthermore, going to TI is not an external pressure, it is THE external pressure. Every pro in the world wants to go to TI and that's the goal of every team in the world. It's hardly trivial. I doubt anyone in the world is more hungry than these top teams because if they were, they'd be beating them.
They have also been dropping out lately. The problem is that when the top teams drop out, viewership falls off a cliff, which in turn jeopardize future iterations and prize pools of the tournament
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On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
How could you read all of that and not think that the tourney organizers are messing up a lot lately? Over-saturation would not be a problem if a lot of their issues were addressed (direct invites for some to limit crowding, more discussion to keep the schedules separate, better travel support, better conditions at LANs)
On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
You can just see Kefka's interview:
I think having too many tournaments can overwhelm the average viewer with the amount of games, therefore making the viewers less interested in them. I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. When several big tournaments are run at the same time the excitement to watch your favorite team play gets lowered because there are just too many games to keep track of.
For me as a player it’s both good and bad; more tournaments would mean the chance of me winning money is bigger but also the amount of attention me and my team gets is lower which can be a problem as well.
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This is community news now? Whoa!
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Nice to read an honest blog with some info on what's happening behind the scenes.
I've actually taken a break from watching Dota 2 games since after The summit 2, neither Dreamhack nor The summit 2 got me excited watching. It's the first time since Dota 2 released I don't feel like watching, not even games between top teams. I can't put my finger on why it's not fun to watch right now but I used to be really hyped for matches between top teams and now it's just meh...I don't really care atm.
At Dreamhack I watched some Dota 2 but mostly I was watching the CSGO matches and the hype is definitely there in CSGO much more than in Dota 2 for me right now.
Maybe it's just because I'm bored with the game in general atm but I feel like the meta has been really stale lately. It's always fun to see teams try out a new hero or play a hero in an unusual role but it feels very rare these days. I don't go into the games excited about the picks and wondering how are they gonna pull it off with those picks, instead I usually go into the games after the picks feeling "same old picks again...ZzZz".
The games I've enjoyed watching the most lately are those from the XMG captains draft cup because there you get to see teams playing something different at least. I don't know beforehand how the game will play out since I haven't seen those picks many times lately.
Some of the most fun tournaments to watch for me were in Warcraft Dota, the first clashes between Asia and the West on LAN at ESWC and SMM. Those days LAN tournaments between top teams were very rare so when it finally happened the excitement was through the roof. I often watched the games in the middle of the night on Garena or through Waaaghtv without commentators and between games you went to forums and discussed the games. Those days the scene was much smaller but it felt more like you were part of a community, I spent a lot of time on Gosugamers discussing various things and pro players would often post there as well. These days the only Interraction I have with the community is through Twitch chat and while that can be fun it's just not the same.
Anyway Dota 2 is a really awesome game and I've followed the Dota scene since early in Warcraft Dota, I'm sure I'll get back the excitement of watching games.
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Well, thats mildly ironic because pick diversity is absurd these days.
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On December 17 2014 06:45 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
The casting situation I agree on. The casting at Dreamleague was atrocious. Waga and Draskyl did all they could to salvage the casting but overall it was next to unbearable. Half the time there was some 3k fool talking over them. Casters should not be drunk, especially when their grasp on dota 2 is shaky to begin with. Overall, I think there are some really great casters out there who don't get enough credit (Draskyl for example), and some really poor casters who need to reevaluate what their role in the dota 2 community is (Pyrion for example).
I hope teams and players start to realize that they are the ones most invested in this scene. Sure, I love DotA and think about it/play/watch it every day. But if DotA2 somehow disappeared tomorrow my life would continue mostly unharmed. If you think there are TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS then tell your management to avoid certain events. Don't sign up for starladder if it's going to kill your schedule and leave you exhausted. Let the tier 2 teams who are struggling to find tournaments and net results play in the more grueling events. It just seems so backwards to me that players are now starting to complain that theres TOO MUCH MONEY AND INTEREST in DotA2. Yea it's fucking messy, it's disorganized, it's chaotic but that's because there's been a boom in interest and money. Like damn, EE you came from almost nothing and now that you're near the top you forgot where you came from. Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
How do you plan out a schedule for tournaments you aren't sure you're going to the LAN for? Furthermore, going to TI is not an external pressure, it is THE external pressure. Every pro in the world wants to go to TI and that's the goal of every team in the world. It's hardly trivial. I doubt anyone in the world is more hungry than these top teams because if they were, they'd be beating them. They have also been dropping out lately. The problem is that when the top teams drop out, viewership falls off a cliff
You have to factor in the possibility that you don't qualify for everything you sign up for. It's like tournaments adapting their schedules to factor in delays... I'm sorry but teams need to have months, if not an entire year planned out. Obviously things are subject to change, but there needs to at least be an effort to make a realistic plan. In traditional sports coaches and management have the responsibility of resting players and ensuring that they stay healthy and performing. Same as in Esports, management needs to plan out their teams schedule accounting for rest periods and with the mindset that you won't win every game. Teams that are more effective at planning out their schedules and win the games that matter will end up being more successful. If that sounds harsh then I guess yea, that's just the nature of a competitive environment.
As for TI forcing teams to play every tournament imaginable, that's just BS. Not knowing if you're gonna make it through every qualifier isn't an excuse to sign up for every tournament and then complain that you're overworked. Picking a realistic schedule and allowing yourself enough practice/downtime to effectively win the games that matter is a sign of a strong team. In other sports, teams that don't do well during the regular season don't make the playoffs. That's pretty simple. They don't get to run off and play 10 other tournaments to try and regain their status.
With all that said, I'm operating on the assumption that tournaments readily provide the teams with scheduling information way in advance. In reality, I'm sure the scheduling is way harder than I realize. And I'm not sure about EE being that hungry, he literally said in his blog post that he cared less/lost his fire somewhat/etc.
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Do we feel it is time to have more LAN events with 2-4 teams invited? Or maybe seed deserving teams into the qualifier playoffs?
The events need those top 10 teams to come for the views it provides their sponsors, but if teams have to play to qualify for each tournament they have no time to improve or rest.
I understand teams feel compelled to play in everything at the moment because numerous good placements will get you into THE ONLY TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS (TI), but at some point do we accept that quality of successful events is more important than quantity?
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On December 17 2014 06:45 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
The casting situation I agree on. The casting at Dreamleague was atrocious. Waga and Draskyl did all they could to salvage the casting but overall it was next to unbearable. Half the time there was some 3k fool talking over them. Casters should not be drunk, especially when their grasp on dota 2 is shaky to begin with. Overall, I think there are some really great casters out there who don't get enough credit (Draskyl for example), and some really poor casters who need to reevaluate what their role in the dota 2 community is (Pyrion for example).
I hope teams and players start to realize that they are the ones most invested in this scene. Sure, I love DotA and think about it/play/watch it every day. But if DotA2 somehow disappeared tomorrow my life would continue mostly unharmed. If you think there are TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS then tell your management to avoid certain events. Don't sign up for starladder if it's going to kill your schedule and leave you exhausted. Let the tier 2 teams who are struggling to find tournaments and net results play in the more grueling events. It just seems so backwards to me that players are now starting to complain that theres TOO MUCH MONEY AND INTEREST in DotA2. Yea it's fucking messy, it's disorganized, it's chaotic but that's because there's been a boom in interest and money. Like damn, EE you came from almost nothing and now that you're near the top you forgot where you came from. Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
How do you plan out a schedule for tournaments you aren't sure you're going to the LAN for? Furthermore, going to TI is not an external pressure, it is THE external pressure. Every pro in the world wants to go to TI and that's the goal of every team in the world. It's hardly trivial. I doubt anyone in the world is more hungry than these top teams because if they were, they'd be beating them. They have also been dropping out lately. The problem is that when the top teams drop out, viewership falls off a cliff, which in turn jeopardize future iterations and prize pools of the tournament
you can not complain about oversaturation and at the same time want every terrible run tournament to stay alive for all eternity. when the viewership drops it will be decided wether the dota scene is large enough to support lower tier tournaments on an equally professional level. (as if any tournament is run by professionals, LOL). if that is the case, great, dota is on a really good way to stay for years to come. if it is not, its also fine because dota will be cut down to a healthier state and will continue the same as it did before.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 17 2014 06:59 EnumaAvalon wrote:
This is community news now? Whoa!
its exploded on every dota related site and twitter, its bigger than tl
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On December 17 2014 07:06 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 06:45 bagels21 wrote:On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
The casting situation I agree on. The casting at Dreamleague was atrocious. Waga and Draskyl did all they could to salvage the casting but overall it was next to unbearable. Half the time there was some 3k fool talking over them. Casters should not be drunk, especially when their grasp on dota 2 is shaky to begin with. Overall, I think there are some really great casters out there who don't get enough credit (Draskyl for example), and some really poor casters who need to reevaluate what their role in the dota 2 community is (Pyrion for example).
I hope teams and players start to realize that they are the ones most invested in this scene. Sure, I love DotA and think about it/play/watch it every day. But if DotA2 somehow disappeared tomorrow my life would continue mostly unharmed. If you think there are TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS then tell your management to avoid certain events. Don't sign up for starladder if it's going to kill your schedule and leave you exhausted. Let the tier 2 teams who are struggling to find tournaments and net results play in the more grueling events. It just seems so backwards to me that players are now starting to complain that theres TOO MUCH MONEY AND INTEREST in DotA2. Yea it's fucking messy, it's disorganized, it's chaotic but that's because there's been a boom in interest and money. Like damn, EE you came from almost nothing and now that you're near the top you forgot where you came from. Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
How do you plan out a schedule for tournaments you aren't sure you're going to the LAN for? Furthermore, going to TI is not an external pressure, it is THE external pressure. Every pro in the world wants to go to TI and that's the goal of every team in the world. It's hardly trivial. I doubt anyone in the world is more hungry than these top teams because if they were, they'd be beating them. They have also been dropping out lately. The problem is that when the top teams drop out, viewership falls off a cliff, which in turn jeopardize future iterations and prize pools of the tournament you can not complain about oversaturation and at the same time want every terrible run tournament to stay alive for all eternity. when the viewership drops it will be decided wether the dota scene is large enough to support lower tier tournaments on an equally professional level. (as if any tournament is run by professionals, LOL). if that is the case, great, dota is on a really good way to stay for years to come. if it is not, its also fine because dota will be cut down to a healthier state and will continue the same as it did before.
I'm not a fan of every terribly run tournament, but I'm just pointing out how all the "more tournament good" bulls are wrong in saying that these top teams should just drop, because if they did; this tournaments would die and T2 teams (the ones they claim to be in support of) would be hurt even more
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On December 17 2014 07:05 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 06:45 bagels21 wrote:On December 17 2014 06:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Envy brings up valid points, but in all honesty the problem seems to lie in his own hands, not the tournament organizers or community's. If you're being overworked then that is your own fault and the fault of C9 management. No one is forcing you to play every single DotA 2 tournament in existence. Citing external pressures such as the desire to qualify for TI is a weak excuse. Teams and their management need to actually take time to plan out their schedules. These are things that are just par for the course in normal jobs. Envy is like a fat kid complaining that he ate too much cake and his stomach hurts.
The casting situation I agree on. The casting at Dreamleague was atrocious. Waga and Draskyl did all they could to salvage the casting but overall it was next to unbearable. Half the time there was some 3k fool talking over them. Casters should not be drunk, especially when their grasp on dota 2 is shaky to begin with. Overall, I think there are some really great casters out there who don't get enough credit (Draskyl for example), and some really poor casters who need to reevaluate what their role in the dota 2 community is (Pyrion for example).
I hope teams and players start to realize that they are the ones most invested in this scene. Sure, I love DotA and think about it/play/watch it every day. But if DotA2 somehow disappeared tomorrow my life would continue mostly unharmed. If you think there are TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS then tell your management to avoid certain events. Don't sign up for starladder if it's going to kill your schedule and leave you exhausted. Let the tier 2 teams who are struggling to find tournaments and net results play in the more grueling events. It just seems so backwards to me that players are now starting to complain that theres TOO MUCH MONEY AND INTEREST in DotA2. Yea it's fucking messy, it's disorganized, it's chaotic but that's because there's been a boom in interest and money. Like damn, EE you came from almost nothing and now that you're near the top you forgot where you came from. Maybe I'm just a dumbass forum poster who has no fucking idea what goes on in the mind of a top player but I'd really like to hear what some tier 2 players think about this situation. I want to hear what the dota 2 scene is like from someone who is still hungry.
How do you plan out a schedule for tournaments you aren't sure you're going to the LAN for? Furthermore, going to TI is not an external pressure, it is THE external pressure. Every pro in the world wants to go to TI and that's the goal of every team in the world. It's hardly trivial. I doubt anyone in the world is more hungry than these top teams because if they were, they'd be beating them. They have also been dropping out lately. The problem is that when the top teams drop out, viewership falls off a cliff You have to factor in the possibility that you don't qualify for everything you sign up for. It's like tournaments adapting their schedules to factor in delays... I'm sorry but teams need to have months, if not an entire year planned out. Obviously things are subject to change, but there needs to at least be an effort to make a realistic plan. In traditional sports coaches and management have the responsibility of resting players and ensuring that they stay healthy and performing. Same as in Esports, management needs to plan out their teams schedule accounting for rest periods and with the mindset that you won't win every game. Teams that are more effective at planning out their schedules and win the games that matter will end up being more successful. If that sounds harsh then I guess yea, that's just the nature of a competitive environment. As for TI forcing teams to play every tournament imaginable, that's just BS. Not knowing if you're gonna make it through every qualifier isn't an excuse to sign up for every tournament and then complain that you're overworked. Picking a realistic schedule and allowing yourself enough practice/downtime to effectively win the games that matter is a sign of a strong team. In other sports, teams that don't do well during the regular season don't make the playoffs. That's pretty simple. They don't get to run off and play 10 other tournaments to try and regain their status. With all that said, I'm operating on the assumption that tournaments readily provide the teams with scheduling information way in advance. In reality, I'm sure the scheduling is way harder than I realize. And I'm not sure about EE being that hungry, he literally said in his blog post that he cared less/lost his fire somewhat/etc.
Stuff like MLG just gets announced, same with ESL Frankfurt 2 etc. They have been trying to plan and Chinese teams are doing this (at the expense of tournaments). Change is slow, but it is happening. I for one am glad EE is telling us this in a blunt way (though Puppey has been hinting at it in the last few weeks in oblique ways)
Valve is not "forcing teams" but it is imperative to have good results. (EG in 2013 is proof that you just can't sit on your ass)
The thing is that even when he finds the game less fun, he probably puts in more effort than 90% of the scene. All the C9 guys are obsessive about dota and EG has ppd and several other guys who fiend dota really hard.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
the oversaturation thing is more to do with the fact that every single tournament is the same as every other tournament with the exception of brand and name, give the tournaments a difference between them and then the points about choosing tournaments means something
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On December 17 2014 07:14 Targe wrote:
the oversaturation thing is more to do with the fact that every single tournament is the same as every other tournament with the exception of brand and name, give the tournaments a difference between them and then the points about choosing tournaments means something
Not really. Every tournament is a chance for teams to compete. This is valuable in terms of experience, showing results, and collecting pots. But there are only so many ways you can run a tournament that are good for competition, or helpful to teams who are there in a large part to refine their competitive edge in preparation for the big show.
As such this expectation that we can have a wide variety of tournaments is just misplaced. If anything, many teams find something like DCCD to be a diversion because it's nothing like the mainline competition they are trying to improve at. Would I like to see more varied tournaments? Yes. But the bulk still need to be something along the lines of the standard format, because that is the purpose they serve.
So-called "oversaturation" is mostly an issue of poor administration, both on the parts of many TO and many teams. You don't need every top team to be at every LAN (obviously) so there are benefits to many of the things EE is complaining about that would be mitigated by teams being - as individual teams - more selective, and TOs being better about planning.
It is not surprising to hear this out of C9 who have participated in every goddamned tournament under the sun for reasons no one can fathom, whatever excuse Envy wants to put out there.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
i mean each tournament is identical to the viewer
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EPT
