EPTNormal Mini Mafia LVI - Page 30
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
BH, you were the host that game. What do you recall of his play and do you see similarities? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 20 2014 18:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote: slOosh, you were scumbuddies with mderg in Detention. Do you feel he's playing similarly in this game? BH, you were the host that game. What do you recall of his play and do you see similarities? What do you think of my case? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
It's made me heavily doubt mderg's alignment, but it hasn't convinced me yet, ergo I'm looking for how he usually plays as scum/town for comparison. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
I note immediately he's making a lot more small posts, which is different. I'm guessing that's a function of the world cup happening now. Other than that I really don't have time to read a freaking filter from a different game. When I host I just make sure my players are 1) not eating each other alive and 2) active. I don't do damn analysis except for on British Empire Mini Mafia II which will TOTALLY HAPPEN I PROMISE | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 20 2014 18:56 Artanis[Xp] wrote: It's made me heavily doubt mderg's alignment, but it hasn't convinced me yet, ergo I'm looking for how he usually plays as scum/town for comparison. Yeah, we're gonna have a problem with that then. I generally only use meta when it supports my case, and now that I'm looking at his filter in detention, it looks like the issue here (he forgot that he was townreading 27nb and then voted her for no reason) didn't happen there. I am not making a behavioral analysis on mderg, but it's not exactly a scumslip case either. It's a case based on the fact that his train of thought really does NOT make sense. In Detention Mafia he has some scumtells and some nonsensical things he says, but nothing like this. I do think he's still scum though despite that. I attribute the change in playing style (conversational in Detention, non-conversational here) to World Cup. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On June 04 2014 22:18 mderg wrote: I don´t think discussing the setup will really bring us further. It should be clear that blues should claim before lylo because that confirms them since scum can´t counterclaim. I had fuba as town after day 2 but after that he kinda chose to disappear. This is strange, especially because he was against lynching sloosh. I think that you should put in more work than just voting on the main bandwagon after you vehemently opposed lynching scum. I get a townie feeling from sqrt, I don´t really agree with everything he says but it definitely feels like he is trying to figure out the game. He´s active and questioning things, so i´d say he´s probably town. I´m not really sure about Palmar, he´s been playing pretty lazy but not to an extreme. He´s definitely capable of doing that as town but it felt like he was not even trying to look beyond the MZ lynch which was odd. HaruRH was quite active the last few days and seems to be trying to solve the game. His plan of lynching sloosh´s scumlist is based is strange, though. It has solid reasoning behind it but it hugely based on assumptions about sloosh´s intentions. Coincidentally I don´t think HaruRH was on that list. I´m still leaning town on him but this is definitely in the back of my mind. Slam is a mystery to me. His posts make sense but I feel like he is not pushing his reads at all. He´s null for me. Amiko is most likely town. I don´t see any way he can be scum. Also I think the MZ lynch was very detrimental for us. There was a lack of good discussion and it´s difficult to get good reads based on that lynch. Mderg played town in Cell Mini II, but I admit that I hosted pretty much the same way you did so I don't recall too much of how he played in detail either. Reading through the mafia qt of Detention though mderg seemed a lot more calculated in it than he's being this game. He discussed who to chase with his mafia buddies before going after them. He mentioned working on a post for 5 hours which suggests he cares a lot about how he appears, something he hasn't really done this game at all. If he did, that post would've never happened. I'm going through cell mini now to see if he made similarly poorly thought out posts there. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
In Detention as scum mderg posts this: On May 28 2014 06:33 mderg wrote: this post seems honest to me. I don´t think anyone would make this defense, if it wasn´t actually the truth. It´s just too far of from anything I would have expected as defense. to defend a town player who's under fire. It's a great defense-of-town post for a scum player to make, because it wont' convince anyone, but it's the kind of thing you can say about anyone who's scummy and still kinda be true, and you'll get credit for being right after the fact. Now check out his post on me this game: On June 20 2014 18:30 mderg wrote: I´m not sure what to think of bh. I did read him as town but over the last days I didn´t get the impression that he was really trying to help town here which would normally lead me to believe he´s scum. But he has put himself so much into the spotlight in an obviously negative way that I find it hard to believe he could be scum. I guess I have to wait for his awesome case. It's the same logic. He sees a townie under fire and tries to get some credit by playing the "this play is too honest and brazen to be scum, look how scummy it is, he must be town" card. In my opinion, all though this does not on its own make mderg scum, it fits into his pattern of play as a scum player. Who else defends me in a situation like this (besides goodkarma, who scum conveniently shot?). Yes, he is setting himself up for towncred... ^--- I can pick out like 10+ things like this comparing ANY TWO FILTERS and make a meta case. I'm that good. Like, if you want, I'll do it for mderg. But it doesn't mean anything that I can do it, except that I'm good at it. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
I'm not up for a mderg lynch at this point in time. I am up for a Koshi lynch though. ##Unvote ##Vote Koshi | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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mderg
Germany1739 Posts
On June 20 2014 18:29 YouKnowZhou wrote: So, basic vote count from the end of D1 shows us that 27nb was lynched with the following people on the wagon: YKZ, Artanis, mderg, Chez, Koshi, Sloosh, GK with counterrwagons YKZ with one vote (Release) and mderg with 4 votes (snickers, VE, 27nb, Lazermonkey) GK was shot overnight and generally the thread has died since then. Given the majority with which 27nb was lynched, we can reasonably conclude that even if mderg is in fact scum, scum wouldn't have to all vote for 27nb to save mderg. Still, we should take a look at what happened in the time leading up to the 27nb lynch to get an idea of which votes made sense and which didn't. I'm going to exclude GK from this analysis, since he died, and myself, since I think everyone is pretty clear on my stated motivations for this lynch. In terms of major pivots on the 27nb case, it begins with my KPR case early in the day, and is augmented with a pbp analysis (link) a few hours before the deadline. Before the pbp analysis, the only voter is mderg. He voted in his first post, about halfway through Day 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=12#231(link) that was noteworthy for being generally unfocused. His other statements in that post are YKZ Town, Snickers strange, pre-flip assoc is bad, Release is non-perfect, sloosh is town, artanis case on release makes sense but sloosh case on him also made sense blah blah. He's giving lots of opinions and spends not a huge amount of time on his vote target, bunnies. I'd also like to add some lines from his inital post here, the post in which he votes bunnies. I'm sure others have pointed this out, but take a look at what's going on in this post. First off, mderg talks a LOT about how 27nb is probably not scum, and neither am I. If you didn't see his vote there at the bottom of the post, and just read the post itself, you would have NO IDEA that he was voting 27nb. Here, try reading his post without the ##vote at the bottom. What does it sounds like to you? + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote: I almost forgot about this due to the world cup  The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow. Yeah, if you read that, you don't think "I guess he probably votes bunnies at the end there, that makes sense to me". No, you don't think that at all. Not even a LITTLE bit. There's nothign that even remotely a case on bunnies there. And look at his response to people attacking him after this: He was NOT leaning scum on bunnies. He acted like he thought both me and bunnies were town (which of course scum would know). He never actually writes a case on bunnies. He defends himself a bit sporadically and doesn't elaborate on his case on bunnies, and it's noteworthy that although he claims a townread on me, he doesn't defend me, the vote leader, during D2. His vote on 27nb and general defense afterwards are a pretty low tier D1, and he doesn't justify the vote, or his case on VE today, well at all. I wonder if he was not anticipating me looking so bad today, and now he's in a tough position of wanting to vote a townie on the block, but not being able to, since he "townreads" me. This would explain the lack of defense, and the fact that he has barely posted in the last 36 hours except to townread me then ask if I play like this usually. I'd characterise mderg's play as disinterested and unfocused. An acceptable lynch for these reasons, especially the lack of staking out a solid defense (or even a solid "I changed my mind on this") post on me since, basically any time since his initial townread on em. Take a look at his "case" on bunnies. In his filter, it's clear that the bunnies vote doesn't come from the thoughts he posted in the thread. Probably he was just posting a reads thing to look good as scum, and one of his scumbuddies reminded him he needed to vote. Like shit, man, who forgets to call someone scum or write a case? He even acts like he was leaning scum on bunnies or he had some sort of reason, even after he explicitly calls my case on bunnies unconvincing IN THE POST THAT HE VOTES BUNNIES IN. I don't even need to read the other votes up (though I will, in due time) because if you look at mderg, the way he voted bunnies is in no way related to a town thought process. Take a look at the spoilered quote, his vote post (at the time his only post in the thread) with the ##vote taken out. There's NO WAY the ##vote follows from that post. It's out of place because he doesn't have an actually town scumhunting and thought process to refer to. He's scum. ##unvote ##vote mderg Q: I am lazy and dont' want to read your long post. A: read this spoilered post by mderg, his first post, and his only voting post from D1. I have removed the ##vote from it, and reading it, you have no freaking clue that he's gonna vote 27nb. It looks like he's townreading 27nb. And then he votes her. He is scum. I have boldfaced the parts in which he refers to bunnies as town. + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote: I almost forgot about this due to the world cup The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong [about each other being scum], bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow. ##vote ??? I don´t think I´ve talked a lot about how bunnies is probably town. The first bolded part where I said that you were wrong was regarding the Kenpachi rule not regarding bunnies alignment. The two sentences after that were supposed to make that clear... The second bolded part is not a townread. The third says your point on her isn´t alignment indicative. Not alignment indicative =/= townie. I thought your reasoning was flawed, even if I scumread someone, I feel the need to mention when I don´t agree with cases on them. Just because I think the conclusion is correct it don´t think the reasoning is also correct. So you can bring my thoughts on bunnies alignment down to this: suspicious, alignment unindicative, suspicious, suspicious I WAS leaning scum on bunnies. My post was just hugely misinterpreted by everyone. The lack of defense of you is explained by not being sure myself anymore. I also didn´t even realize you were the vote leader. The tough position you are talking about would not be that tough. Why would I need to vote you when you´re set to be lynched without my vote? Your case on bunnies was unconvincing, your reasoning was bad. But that doesn´t mean I can´t be convinced by my own reasoning which is not really related to yours. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
BH his case is pretty good and there is nothing that makes Mderg certain town. I still have to work till 1700 and travel home but I am here to be poked. ##vote: mderg | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
Untill his reason vote he didn't have a single scum read what so ever. And it IS very convinient that he votes that number 1 lynchbait... | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On June 20 2014 19:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: This is also a good point brought up. Everyone that is voting mderg should explain why they vote him very very clearly and why the reason you vote him makes him scum. Explain how that action isn't likely to have come out of a newbie town player also.BH, I'm not a newbie player. I know that similarities does not necessarily mean the same alignment, but previous games can give you insights into their mind. Particularly a scum qt can be enlightening. It told me mderg is someone that thinks before he posts as scum, which is a point against him being scum this game. I'm not up for a mderg lynch at this point in time. I am up for a Koshi lynch though. ##Unvote ##Vote Koshi | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On June 19 2014 21:20 VisceraEyes wrote: That list is Snickers/Release/LM. Blah. I should really solidify my read on Snickers/LM this cycle. Enlight us, please! | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
On June 20 2014 22:54 Lazermonkey wrote: I'm busy today as well but will hopefully at least be able to post during the lynch. I don't really get the BH wagon yet though. Well, I do get it but I don't get how people would rather vote for BH than they would vote for VE or Koshi. Untill his reason vote he didn't have a single scum read what so ever. And it IS very convinient that he votes that number 1 lynchbait... I am voting for the only person who has a case made against him. Two even. Do you disagree with the cases? I don't so I vote Mderg. What do you mean with you don't understand why people are voting BH? BH pushed bunnies like a mofo and then disappeared, only to come back do nothing and taunt everybody, so he got votes. I am only doing the do nothing part, so I got less votes than BH. Now that BH did something everybody should comment on that. Is the case legit or is it not? For me the case is very legit and well made so I am ok with BH. Somewhere I should look at the meta of BH in djinn game and in Ver game because he tunneled town D1 in both those games. I will do that later. Voting me is pretty boring btw. I pinkysweared I was town when I entered the game. That should be enough. On top of that I am voting for the best cases in the thread, I am not pushing my own agenda in the thread, and I do not hide any of my reasoning from the thread. I already told you people to look at the people who didn't vote Mderg D1. Scum never votes together. It simply doesn't happen ever. If I had to guess I would say Snickers is the scummer between the 4 but he is on Mderg ass since D1 so meh. Snickers hasn't been answering any of my questions and is just ignoring everything and pushing Release/Mderg. But I am not pushing anything this game. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
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